if u dislike the doctrine of election.. just keep with Christ.. and keep studying the bible.. and youll see what it is perfectly... and youll love it!! cus man is evel and hates God and always rejects Christ... and if God dont do what he does with man who he choose, nobody could be saved.. in the bible someone that i dont remember right now asked this to Jesus: "and how can be any man saved?".. and Jesus sayed: "to God nothing is impossible." Sorry my english is bad... =)
1. Calvinists believe in the doctrine of election, and it is true and scriptural. Actually God predestinated all His children to be saved and be with Him. So who are those who will not be saved? They are not the children of God. Example of them were Cain, Judas, pharao, Ananias and Saphira. Example of the children of God who we know were saved even before they were born were Jacob, Moses, and the prophets.
2. The bible refers the children of God as sheep, and goats are not His children. Sometimes they are refered as the wheat and the tare. In the parable of the wheat and tare, notice that even before they were planted they were already of different seeds. The wheat was the seed of God and was planted by Jesus, the tares were the seed of the devil and was planted by the devil. Jesus once said that He came but for the lost sheep of Israel. Before they were saved Jesus called them sheep already.
@jundurias 3. So from both Adam and Eve who were both children of God, How did these goats came into being?
It also started in the book of Genesis in the garden of Eden. The actual sin of Adam and Eve was not eating an apple or literal fruit of the tree. It was only an allegory. The actual sin was adultery. Before Adam knew his wife Eve she was seduced by the devil who entered the serpent. After Eve committed adultery she went back to Adam and Adam knew her. She bore a twin.
@jundurias 4. Cain was the child of the serpent, and Abel the child of Adam the child of God. The serpent was not a snake but it became a snake after God cursed him. In the law of reproduction the bible said that everything reproduce according to its kind. Jesus once said, "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. But look how evil Cain was, he even withstood God to the face. Adam and Eve were both good, children of God created to His likeness.
@jundurias 5. When Eve bore Seth, she said , God appointed me ANOTHER seed INSTEAD of Abel. She knew that Cain was not the seed of God nor seed of Adam.
In the bible there are two genealogies. One of Adam and one of Cain. After thousands of years of mixed marriages
no one can determine who are the descendants of Adam nor of Cain but God only. Jesus was not lying nor making presumptous statement when He told some of the Pharisees, "You are of your father the devil".
@jundurias 6. In John 3:12 the apostle John called Cain of the wicked one. "wicked one" means the devil.
The descendants of Adam and Eve who were created in the likeness of God are sheeps, elected, predestinated, while the descendants of Cain like Judas, pharao, Ananias and Saphira were goats and cannot be saved.
@jundurias 7. When I was a new believer I thought that everyone will be saved if there is someone who will testify to Him of the gospel and will lead him to Christ without giving up. But I noticed that there are some extremely evil person who will even mock the gospel. There are serial killers who doesn't show even a slight of guilt. How can these people believe and repent? No wonder Jesus said to the rich man, "Even a dead person will rise from the grave and testify yet he will not believe.
@jundurias 8. When a wax and clay, both exposed to the same heat, the wax will melt, while the clay will hardened. Why ? Because it is their characterestics.
When a sheep and a goat both hear the same gospel, the sheep's heart will melt and he will fall down to his knee and will ask forgiveness from God. The goat will harden his heart and mock God. Why? Because it is their characteristics. Election and Predestination is biblical. I am not a calvinist, I don't believe in trinity and tithing.
@margovallen, Godhead means the state of being god. It does not speak of 3 persons.
Col 2:9 " For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. "---It means that in Jesus dwells all the fullness of being God. It doesn't mean that 3 persons dwell in Jesus.
The doctrine of trinity says that there is one God but 3 divine persons, and that these 3 persons dwell in the Godhead. But this verse says that the godhead dwells in Jesus because godhead means the state of being god, not trinity.
@jundurias Godhead is one God.. a triune being made up of three persons. God the Father.. God the Son.. and God the Holy Spirit. I'm, not sure why this is so difficult to understand and accept.. as the average human being is basically made up of two :
I and my spirit. You and your spirit. Each person of the Godhead has His own job, as it were. God sits on His throne.. Jesus is God in the flesh.. and the Holy Spirit is God in spirit.
@margovallen, 1. " I'm, not sure why this is so difficult to understand and accept.. as the average human being is basically made up of two:"---- Because it is not in the scriptures. Moreover I and my spirit are not 2 persons.
"A sound knowledge of God is crucial to Salvation."---- Right, but trinity is not a sound knowledge. There is no doctrine of trinity in the bible both the old and new testament. Actually it is a contradiction to the scriptures. It was invented by the Catholic church.
@jundurias If your spirit leaves your body, what then? That was an example to make a point. Totally apples and apples? No. The Bible READS lots of things that its not really 'saying.' The term "Trinity" is not in the Bible and Godhead is. You are inaccurate in your assumption as to what that is. Theres your mistake. We have words and they must have meaning. Evidently, you fail to understand that certain Biblical Truths aren't going to be found in one passage. Hence, read, study, PRAY.
(cont) You believe that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh, yes? "Contradictions" (as it were) in the Word of God are only so to the UN-believer. We must be born-again and the Holy Spirit will clear all of that up. It's paramount having the Holy Spirit to guide us unto TRUTH. Relying on our human intellect will allow us to fall short of this. A person receives the Holy Spirit immediately upon trusting in Jesus Christ.
Anyone whom denies the Trinity, I would question their Salvation.
@margovallen , 2. The bible teach all the way of only one God. Jesus is that one God who manifested in the flesh. Jesus has 2 nature, the divine and the human. The divinity in Jesus is the only God, the Father. The manifestation in the flesh is the Son of God. There is no God the Son in the bible. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God that is in Jesus. It is not the thhird person of God. We were brainwashed by the Catholic church which is anti Christ.
@jundurias True! One God.... in THREE PERSONS (*personalities). The Whore of Babylon may be Israel and the Catholic Church, the daughter. The 'fall of Babylon' is the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.. (Rev. 17:9, Rev. 18)
Several Old Testament prophets referred to Jerusalem as being a spiritual harlot and a mother of such harlotry (Isaiah 1:21; Jeremiah 2:20; Jeremiah 3:1-11; Ezekiel 16:1-43; Ezekiel 23, Galatians 4:25).
God's perfect justice against sin was satisfied on the cross. A greater wrath is going to be poured out upon those who twist the Gospel and misrepresents God. Calvinism with its vile doctrine of predestination and election is a very good candidate.
@lessingtom When you hate idiotic Calvinists, you scoop to their level. God is love. Why would you want to become just like them? Take the higher road. Calvinists are clearly wrong but don't hate them. Instead, pray for them.
You have done something I would never do because it is very dangerous. You called them "idiots." I merely reiterated what Paul says in Gal 1: 8 and 9: "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." (Gal 1:8). Are they preaching the Gospel Paul preached? If not, then they are accursed. Paul said it, not I. Did Paul hate the false apostles in his time? No! he wanted to shock them to their senses.
The questionnaire said: "I believe in the doctrine of election . . ." That seems to be in harmony with what Jesus said in John 14:1: "Believe in the doctrine of election, believe also in the doctrine of election." And John Piper, refining this belief, said: Believe in the true doctrine of election, believe also in the true doctrine of election." Who can argue with that? Did I say that lovingly and compassionately enough mspsys?
God grieves over sending people to hell. So all throughout eternity God is going to be upset because of people burning in hell? Isnt he pleased because his wrath against sin is being satisfied?
The True doctrine of election? Is the true doctrine of election that Christ loves all people but did not die for most of them? Is it that He loves some people and hates the rest? Is it that he, John Piper, is one of the select few whom God loves and died for on the cross and has chosen unto salvation before the foundation of the earth? Is it that He has reprobated all those who do not believe in the true doctrine of election?
Dear amyamywebb I sincerely hope what I am about to say does not offend you.
I totally understand the Doctrine of "I know JESUS and I am going to heaven but You don't and You are going to burn in hell forever"
That makes me sad for a few reasons. The first and best reason is sometimes say things before we put very much thought into what we are saying, We assume things. There is a FREE book on line that might be worth your time to scan HOPE BEYOND HELL. get back with me if You'd like
When these well known preacher/teachers take on SALVATION by GRACE and NEVER ENDING TORTURE in HELL we hear things like what we just heard here ABSOLUTE UN BIBLICAL NONSENSE, These men understand something is WRONG, with BILLIONS being TORTURED in a NEVER Ending HELL By a MERCIFUL GOD who IS LOVE who inspired 1st Corinthians chapter 13 . You cannot tell the truth when you do not know the truth. But you can make things up like Mr Piper just did.
This explanation of election is nothing short of guilt manipulation. God has engrained within our conscience a sense of what is just and what is abhorrently unjust. It instinctively strikes us as inhjerrently unjust that God should create people whom he simultaneously commands to repent and renders incapable of repenting because he has not chosen them. And yet we are told here that to feel that that is unjust is actually sinful, because it is supposedly disliking what God likes.
@RMarshall57 Agreed - such is the folly of Calvinism - contorting, twisting, and manipulating texts to the point of positing a list of dichotomies under the banner of sovereignty. God justly elects some to perish, while Paul wishes himself accursed for the sake of his "kinsmen according to the flesh". Would this then be drawing nigh unto blasphemy (according to Piper)? Maybe Paul should have been erased from the book of life for desiring to thwart the plan of God...silly Calvinists!
Sorry, but this is a big miss! Jesus, in the Garden, prayed for the cup to pass from him, showinf CLEAR dislike for waht was coming, but his obedience, in SPITE of that personal dislike, is the heart that God seeks. Disliking it is fleshly, obedience, true heart obedience, is the spiritual.
While Jesus' flesh had not sinned, it still did not desire, or like, if you will, what was going to come, the pain and death.
here is what i think about election, and im probably wrong, please be gentle. I think that there are people who God chooses to elect and predestine for salvation (the disciples,the apostles, my mother,she has quite a story). i also think that one element of common grace is that all people may have a chance for salvation and for attaining saving grace. I think as well as election, God pursues people and gives them a choice. there is more, but thats basically it. like i said, im probably wrong.
@mastercheef12345 I don't think you are wrong. God's will is for everyone to come to repentance. And he says whosoever wills can be saved. That means it's available for everyone. But as you know not everyone will be saved. Since he is omniscient, he knows beforehand who will and will not receive him. Im struggling with this question, since God knows a person will reject him anyway, is he going to waste his time to call that person? But if he calls him that means he is called to follow him right?
I keep asking people who believe in this view of election how they Justify it in the view of where it says "God's desire is for all to be saved". Can his will and his desire be in conflict? I am not saying God doesn't know who will be saved, he is omnscient so of course he does, but it is a matter of weather it is passive or direct.
I love you brother, so i debate in love. I agree that the spirit had to work in me first, but jesus said "I knock at the door" I believe he knocks on every door (human heart). When u say that it's so we can come to him. That is where I make this point. The word is "can" come to him, not "must" come to him. He truly is the author of my faith. I do not boast. heard it put this way. The door to heaven has a sign on the outside "free will" another on the inside "chosen" bless u and glory to god
@kellyrodewald am sorry but have to disagree with you since now am sure there is no such thing as freewill !! why you ask? well the will does not make choices it is the mind that makes the choice the will follows so if the natural man cannotunderstand the things of GOD for to him they are foolishness 1st corin; ch;2;14 because sin decieves him into thinking that its craziness so once the mind has decided this is not for me because of sin than the choice is made but it is not a free
@kellyrodewald free choice its a choice based on the decietfullness of sin that enslaves the mind so if the mind is fallen the will must by necessity follow only when GOD regenerates a man and gives him faith only than can man through GOD giving faith can make choices for the things of GOD than and only than can there be no boasting
I don't like everything and I don't understand everything. All I know is that I love my GOD. I pray to GOD to help me to understand why things are the way they are and he has been gracious enough to answer me on a number of occasions by his holy spirit or through his ministering angels. I did not understand why JESUS had to die on the cross. Now I understand why and it breaks my heart more than ever.
I understand the concept of people sending themselves there, but if people are deceived, do they really have full access to their free-will? I wish I could just accept it and move on, but then I feel, who if they had the veil lifted would 'choose' hell instead of heaven? Another question I've asked is if majority of humanity is lost and in an eternal state of constant torture, does God in the end get everything He wants? The whole heaven/hell issue is not an easy subject..
@Drooblemeister We are to rightly divide the Word to reprove ourselves. Any 'deception' gets thwarted to the true born-again believer. If the veil were lifted and we could all see into Hell, I cannot imagine anyone choosing Hell at that point. But, thats not the way it is and we must believe and accept it all by faith. Having 'proof' takes no faith. God want us to believe Him at His Word.God does not desire anyone go to Hell.. as it was made for the devil and his angels.
God may not get everything He wants.. as UN-believers see to that. But, He loves us just the same.. even though, not everybody reciprocates. The desires of the UN-believer is to be away from God.. wanting nothing to do with him. So, God gives them what they want.. in this life and the next. Hence, Hell aka the place void of God.
To illustrate, let's say your neighbor sneaks into your home in the dark and pretends to be you so that he can have sex with your wife. Your wife has no idea it's your neighbor - she thinks it's you - so she has sex with him. The next day, you find out about this and beat/divorce (whatever you're into) your wife - who was tricked - for cheating on you.
That is what God allegedly does to those who are decieved by Satan. Satan tricks us into
You wanna know something? I believe, and many other Christians like myself also believe that God will not allow anyone to go to hell on the basis they were deceived, some people in this life do decide to follow satan on their own free-will, satan can decieve us, but he cannot force us to do anything against our will, but we can submit our will to him if we choose. I also don't believe God 'predestined' anyone to go to hell, the Bible never says this anywhere.. Peace,
@Drooblemeister "but he cannot force us to do anything against our will"
This would be relevant if, in my analogy, the wife had been raped. But "force" is entirely different from "tricking" someone into doing something.
To illustrate once more, I'm an atheist because I feel it is the most logical position to take, based on the evidence (or lack thereof). This is not something I'm "chooosing" to do; it's simply the logical default. If this turns out to be a trick of the Devil, how is
@Drooblemeister (Part 2) this my fault? How is this ANYONE'S fault?
It's not. So, by your logic, God should not send me (or any like-minded atheist) to Hell for being non-believers - which I'm sure you know goes against your entire theology.
Welcome to the world of theological contradictions.
I never said he wouldn't, I'm said he wouldn't send someone to hell on the sole basis they were deceived, but I also said that everyone has a free-will and satan does not 'make us' do anything against our will. The desire to escape hell was not the reason why I decided to become a Christian, it had to do w/ the fact that God grabbed a hold of my heart, showed me His love expressed in the person of Jesus. If God is real, then we do have free-will, and we do have the capacity to find Him..
@Drooblemeister If we assume that Satan is in fact real, and if he does decieve us, then in that sense yes, he DOES "force" us to do this or that by way of deception. I realize I earlier claimed that force and trickery were different, but after some thought, I realized they're not. You can "force" someone to do something by convincing them through deception to do it.
@Drooblemeister (Part 2) not believing in God, or into doing what is "bad", and God punishes us for it. What's more, Christians standing on the side-lines tell us non-believers that we "chose it for ourselves".
If God is real, and if there is a Devil decieving us, then we are no more at fault for our mindset than your wife would be for being tricked. For this reason, if God punishes us in Hell, then he is an irrational tyrant who chooses a hissy-fit over logic.
election is a lovely doctrine. It tells us how God operates in salvation, how could that be anything else but good? Sure, God choses who to save, but out of a world of God hating, stone hearted men, who if left to their own will would NEVER have come to Christ. In fact they'ed rather go to hell than surrender to God, So everyone gets what they want in election. This just makes it even more wonderful that God changed our hearts to desire to know the lord, enabling us to have something that we now
@djr3000 are so thankful for, and know that we were blind to see the light in, not because God forced sin upon us, but because we loved our sin and hated Jesus.
@Thinkinginstead I maintain my point; those who go to hell hate it, but they'd rather be there than with the God they hate so much, (and they will hate him completely when God removes all his grace from their lives) burning with the full measure of his glory. If you're presented with the gospel now and find it repulsive, you wouldnt like to be in God's presence, and as a sinner faced with his holiness, it would be infinately more unbearable. As a sinner you couldnt hack heaven.
@djr3000 The only reason anyone would hate God is exactly because He has YET to give them His grace - and it is HIS choice when to do so. If you are a Calvinist you should agree completely with this truth, and yet you imply instead that people "deserve" hell because of some choice that THEY made - completely contradicting your own doctrines.
@Thinkinginstead "...thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to conflict." -John Calvin (Book 1, Chapter 17, paragraph 5)
@Thinkinginstead youve got the cart before the horse. Man hates god (the biblical God), the sinful mind is hostile to God rom 8;7. Jesus said the world hates him (john 15;18). Its not as if there's billions lined up begging a cruel God to forgive them, as no one who seeks God (rom 3;11). Its not that God wont forgive man, its that man in his natural state is unable to come to god because he is so opposed to him in his heart that he cant do it. This deepens man's guilt rather than extenuating it.
@djr3000 It is you sir, who have the cart before the horse, for it was God who created man - it was He who gave man his sinful nature. We did not choose our nature - we INHERITED it by divine decree. Would you condemn to eternal hell a child with Downs syndrome because he was born with it? I doubt it, but that is exactly what you are claiming God will do.
@Thinkinginstead The bible clearly tells us that god decreed everything that will ever happen, including sin (for if he ordained the crucifiction before the foundation of the world (Acts 4;28) , then he must have ordained that sin would come into the world so jesus had something to save us from). But the bible also teaches that God is neither the auther of sin, nor does he tempt anyone with sin (james1;13,14), but that man sins by his own volition james1;17. We have to accept both these truths.
@djr3000 If God created us with a sinful nature then we cannot NOT sin. To say that God made me a sinner but is just in punishing me for sinning is ridiculous, and yet these are the two interpretations that you are trying to convince me, and yourself, are both true. Since you have already admitted that you do not have all the answers, but must simply trust that glaring contradictions must somehow be "true," perhaps it is because it is your interpretations themselves which are in error.
@Thinkinginstead i have shown you that my interpretations are scripturally valid. You have simply repudiated and brushed off every verse i have given you. The problem lies not in calvinistic interpretations, but the immediate conclusions drawn by the finite mind that is afraid to accept these flagrant truths. We should accept them as truth eventhough we cant understand them. It doesnt mean God's character is flawed, just that our scope of understanding is finite.
@djr3000 I brush off nothing - I take the entire Bible in context - and the context is the redemption of mankind. If I accept your theology - that God has chosen to hate my fellow man - is that supposed to be "good" news to me?
Well it's not, and it does not represent the God that I know. If you know a different one then your welcome to spend eternity with him while the rest of humanity rots in hell. If that scenario is OK with you then I guess I understand the condition of your heart.
@Thinkinginstead i have not tried to belittle you or to patronise you, but you feel free to make malicious statements about my character. I said you are brushing off my points because for every scripture text i have shown you in support of my views, you have not told me how i am misinterpreting them and how you reconcile them to your own views. My posts have been replete with scriptural references to bolster my standpoints, and so far, i dont think you have used one.
@djr3000 What malicious comment? I simply restated what you believe. If it points to any maliciousness in you then perhaps you are just finally recognizing what you had yet to admit to.
@djr3000 I never said you were an unbeliever for it is very obvious that you believe something, as we all do. I merely pointed out your own conclusion and you felt insulted when I repeated it back to you.
@Thinkinginstead You agree with election,however you just think God has elected everyone for salvation,when scripture plainly proves the opposite.There are 2 groups.
@Thinkinginstead I didn't consider myself part of the chosen group until I understood what it all meant a couple of years ago.I do know ,however,that God saved me in a motel room while I was by myself 16 years ago.I was on my way out the door to go find a bar and party,but the Lord lead me to read the Bible in the room,and saved me that very night.
@Thinkinginstead I was elected before the foundation of the world to be saved at a certain point in my life,however,just like Jesus being slain before the foundation of the world,God just created a future for it to all happen in.In God's mind everything has already been done,the rest for Him are just formalities.
@Thinkinginstead I didn't write the Bible,nor do I have anything to do with what God has planned,I'm just a participant like everyone else.If you find the God of the Bible offensive,that's between you and God.All I can say is thank God for Jesus Christ.
@CBALLEN No, I do not find the God of the Bible offensive, for He is the savior of the world. I simply find the "god" of Calvinism offensive, for he is petty and unloving.
@Thinkinginstead Most of the none elect don't care about Jesus Christ and would just as soon spit on Him.Then you have others who don't like the God of the Bible and choose to worship one they are more comfortable with instead.
@CBALLEN They don't care about him simply because God has not yet drawn them to him. That is His choice when to do so. Your own Calvinist theology has declared that God decided NOT to reveal Himself to them, but the Bible says otherwise.
@Thinkinginstead All just means Jews and Gentiles In the big picture,instead of Jews only as it was in the OT.God has created the wicked for the day of evil and fitted people for destruction,like Pharaoh,Judas, Jezebel,Eli's sons,ALL THE PEOPLE IN THE WORLD but 8 people in the flood ect.I just don't know why you refuse to believe the truth?
@CBALLEN If your God does not find it distasteful to slaughter His own children then I could not possibly love Him. If you can then I guess we understand each other.
@Thinkinginstead Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
@Thinkinginstead So you really think Jesus was lying to the Pharisees?And as far as praying for someones salvation,God knows what we will pray before we know,therefore all prayers were known in eternity past, before we ever utter them.
@CBALLEN You only want me to be saved if I am among the elect, otherwise you want me in eternal hell. Or are you implying that you want what God does NOT want?
I am through arguing Tim. If it gives you peace to believe in the "god" of Calvinism then I wish you all the best.
@CBALLEN I can picture you on your knees, Tim, praying to your loving Heavenly Father - "Oh, please God, please reveal to Jim that Jesus doesn't love everyone."
@CBALLEN Rom. 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
Whoever is included in the "all men" in the first part is also included in the "all men" of the second part. But apparently to you those are two different groups. Your interpretation of scripture only "proves" that you have your own opinion - nothing else.
@CBALLEN Rom. 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
@Thinkinginstead We who are believers give the general call through the preaching of the word to the masses,only those who God makes born again through His word will believe.Since we can't know who the elect are,we are told to take the Gospel to every creature.
@Thinkinginstead I don't lie to anyone about salvation,I preach it just like the disciples,Jesus died for sinners and who ever calls on His name will be saved.The lie comes when you tell everyone JESUS LOVES YOU AND DIED FOR YOU,the disciples never evangelized like that.That alone should give people pause in their belief and how they evangelize.
@CBALLEN I have no need to argue with you Tim. If you wish to believe that God hates most of your fellow man then you go right ahead and do so. That is a matter of your heart, and how you view the nature of our Heavenly Father.
@Thinkinginstead Well Jim,if you think that Jesus is gonna save everyone who ever lived then go ahead,but that's not what scripture teaches and especially not what Jesus taught.Sin is a terrible thing and if Jesus said many will be cast in to the Lake of fire,I'd believe Him if I were you,there'd be no reason to evangelize if it weren't true.
@CBALLEN According to your theology I can only believe Him if He chooses to reveal Himself to me. If He hasn't then it just shows that I was predestined for hell anyway.
@Thinkinginstead The thing is,it's clear that not all will be saved.Jesus came specifically for HIS PEOPLE,He told the Pharisees that they wouldn't escape Hell.It wouldn't make any difference at all in telling people Jesus died for sinners if everyone ends up in Heaven,eat ,drink and be merry for tomorrow we all end up in Heaven.Who cares about any fruit of salvation,it doesn't matter,good tree,evil tree,we're all the same in the end.That's just silly and dangerous to teach that.
@Thinkinginstead Well,if someone is teaching a false gospel then their fruit is rotten of course none of that means anything to you,because Hitlers at Jesus' feet as we speak,right?
@CBALLEN And when did sin have anything to with salvation? We are all sinners, but according to you only a few "elect" have had their sins taken away.
@djr3000 Just WHAT are you trying to convince me to believe my friend? That God hates most of His creation? Sorry, but I will not. If that is what you want to believe you have every right to, but then there is certainly nothing I can say that will change your mind, or any scriptures that I can provide that you won't twist to support your interpretations.
I am not challenging your thinking in order to get you to think worse about yourself, but to get you to think BETTER about God.
@Thinkinginstead are you really "AFRAID to accept these FLAGRANT TRUTHS"? is that REALLY the problem, that You're AFRAID? I was under the assumption that you're just not DUMB enough to accept their conclusions based on BAD hermeneutics. And these are their conclusions, that God acts NOT by LOVE, but by "the good pleasure of his will", that God gives man a Law that it cannot possibly obey, and condemns him for not obeying.
@Thinkinginstead Where's the Mercy or Compassion? the Calvin god doesn't respond to anyone but simply acts because HE is pleased to save some and damn others. He is deceptive, he commands ONE THING, and DECREES precisely the contrary. He commands us to obey, but has decreed that the reprobate can't obey. He says, "I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked." when in fact, the wicked die for his good pleasure.
@Thinkinginstead He pleas with man to change his course, but in fact he urges them on to sin in ruin! Yeah, these are their Calvinism conclusions that you're just too "AFRAID to Accept".
@Thinkinginstead Ask yourself what are your motives? Are you truly depressed that god choses who to save (and he doesnt owe salvation to anyone rom11;35) or are you simply raging against him in your heart, making calumunies against the Almighty and justifying yourself. These things are hard to understand, and there is much contradiction in them to the human mind, but his understanding is higher than our understanding, so i trust he is good even though i dont have all the answers.
@djr3000 My motives are only to declare God's all-encompassing love for mankind. God's unconditional love is not hard to understand. It is Calvinism which creates the contradictions: declaring that God is love but that He hates mankind; declaring that God is sovereign but man is responsible; declaring that God created man but man will be damned to eternal hell for his nature, as if man created himself.
You say that God is "good" - what is good about a god who creates people for eternal misery?
@Thinkinginstead Please if you will, refute the context in which i have used each bible verse i have quoted. Show me where you go in the bible to substantiate your claims. You say God loves everyone, but the bible says "The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul HATES." ps 11;5. So calvinistic thinking does not pull these ideas out of the air. Ultimately, you're telling the bible what you're estimation of a good God is, im accepting the bibles definition
@djr3000 For every scripture that you claim "proves" eternal hell I can provide one which I will claim "proves" universal salvation. The Bible is filled with seeming contradictions so that we will look with our hearts to find the true nature of God - which was revealed in His son. "If you have seen me you have seen my Father."
Why don't I just accept your theology and admit that God has chosen to "love" some, and hate all the rest by virtue of His godly" nature.
This is insane. It sounds like God the father is schizophrenic in 1st off, creating something JUST to destroy it (predestining someone to hell, etc.)
Then 2ndly supposedly feeling bad about what evil He created & allowed. And then expecting humans to not just agree with Him, but for us to worship His despite (or more) of this horrible thing He created, destroyed, or did.
Well if getting saved is saying a simple 3 sentence prayer (which isn’t even in the bible) or raising your hand to walk down the aisle (like every American church I ever went to did) then I 1st did that when I was 12 then every week afterwards b/c I never felt anything or any different!
If it’s not that simple (like Paul Washer says) as simply walking forward & repeating sentences .....................
..............(like none of the African or foreign churches ever seem to do, i.e., have a call to salvation after each service) then HOW DO You GET SAVED & INTO HEAVEN?!?!
After EVERY Paul Washer or John Piper video, they make it plain how to determine if you ARE saved, but the NEVER tell you the solution if you or not!
Why is that?
Is it that if you disagree with or questions the Bible, God, & points of ..............
.............Calvinism or any other denomination your NOT saved. If so, how do you successfully get saved (outside of the obvious 3 sentence prayer that most humans know by heart)?!?!
And more so if you don’t love God, or love yourself WAY more than God, or just want to get saved to avoid hell (as Satan & everyone else does) and NOT because you love God & want to be with Him – then is it impossible 4 you to ever successfully be saved?!?!?!
Being saved is means to REPENT. One must come to REPENTANCE in order to be saved. Repentance is not just the turning away from sin, it is the total turning away from self in its entirety, meaning, turning away from self's own fallible perception/judgment/feelings concerning what is true and depending totally on God's truth.. Which is all done through God's grace.
Accepting that doctrine -especially the part where God purposes isome for hell - means detachment from concern for others (and self). Wouldn't a just God by nature care for the souls he creates? If not, why not. I mean would God use created beings like objects in a purely utilitarian manner? Doesn't compute
Unless I terrible misunderstand you, you are saying that sin is the creation of weak minds. Then it's okay for someone to kill a member of your family or take something of yours by force, because the "wrongness" of those actions are no founded in anything but your ideological bankruptcy. Correct!?!?
Fascinating ideological bankruptcy. To justify a bankrupt notion is to slap mythological labels onto it. Sin = mystical no no's, unfounded and unproven.. Can I disprove it? No.. thus for it automatically becomes plausible by the ideologically bankrupt lower branches.. the peasants of religion. This is beyond sad.
This was a great answer. When I was lost, I didn't like the doctrine of election. When I was saved, I totally agreed with it. The problem people have with the doctrine of election is that they just can't totally let go of self. The refusal to accept election is from an 'all about me' position. The ability to accept it is from an 'all about God' position.
@sicstyl I cannot readily accept the Doct. of Election for the very fact that I cannot believe in a system where it is impossible for OTHERS to acquire rightful salvation from God. It is not about my own salvation. My God-given inability to not care about fates of others has me turning my back on this doctrine, and I simply cannot help it.
The inability to accept the doctrine of election is a byproduct of one's refusal to totally submit to God's will. God is God REGARDLESS of whether he saves or not. That's the problem with people.. They refuse to accept that. He has chosen to save. If he didn't, he'd still be God and totally justified. When people argue over 'fairness' and 'inclusiveness', they are actually saying that if God doesn't accommodate their rationale, THEN HE ISN'T GOD NOR IS HE GOOD.
He can definitely be God & definitely decide & chose who to save & who to throw in hell. But this does NOT seem just let alone good in any way. Any intelligent being outside of God in this universe (not just earth) will agree that creating something or someone just to destroy it is evil and not sane. If a human kid did that, the parents would immediately send him to therapy.
Animal rights activist complain on how hospitals treat rodents & wild animals so .....
.............cruel just to find cures for humans & other animals - & we are infallible, sinful, screw ups of people. how can a God who creates & controls all things be more inconsiderate & cruel to purposely create something (angels) or someone (people) just to get His kicks off by throwing them in hell?!
'Any intelligent being outside of God in this universe (not just earth) will agree that creating something or someone just to destroy it is evil and not sane.'
That's the problem. You don't understand the situation. God doesn't throw innocent beings into hell. He casts EVIL there. And that is what HUMANS ARE outside of Christ. If God saves, he's been just. If he doesn't, he's been just.
Some people are idiots, if you don't agree with election, stop commenting on the videos. My goodness.
MartelTheBondservant 2 days ago
I remember that back when I got saved I didn't even want to hear about predestination. Months later I actually realized that I believed in it.
BritneyAddicted4EVA 1 week ago
Someone needs to ask Pipe r if its a sin to disagree with him over Scripture INTERPRETATION!
Isaiah1v18 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
if u dislike the doctrine of election.. just keep with Christ.. and keep studying the bible.. and youll see what it is perfectly... and youll love it!! cus man is evel and hates God and always rejects Christ... and if God dont do what he does with man who he choose, nobody could be saved.. in the bible someone that i dont remember right now asked this to Jesus: "and how can be any man saved?".. and Jesus sayed: "to God nothing is impossible." Sorry my english is bad... =)
12Daniel17 2 months ago
Comment removed
12Daniel17 2 months ago
This is just a scary man... God save him.
apostolic38 2 months ago
1. Calvinists believe in the doctrine of election, and it is true and scriptural. Actually God predestinated all His children to be saved and be with Him. So who are those who will not be saved? They are not the children of God. Example of them were Cain, Judas, pharao, Ananias and Saphira. Example of the children of God who we know were saved even before they were born were Jacob, Moses, and the prophets.
jundurias 3 months ago
2. The bible refers the children of God as sheep, and goats are not His children. Sometimes they are refered as the wheat and the tare. In the parable of the wheat and tare, notice that even before they were planted they were already of different seeds. The wheat was the seed of God and was planted by Jesus, the tares were the seed of the devil and was planted by the devil. Jesus once said that He came but for the lost sheep of Israel. Before they were saved Jesus called them sheep already.
jundurias 3 months ago
@jundurias 3. So from both Adam and Eve who were both children of God, How did these goats came into being?
It also started in the book of Genesis in the garden of Eden. The actual sin of Adam and Eve was not eating an apple or literal fruit of the tree. It was only an allegory. The actual sin was adultery. Before Adam knew his wife Eve she was seduced by the devil who entered the serpent. After Eve committed adultery she went back to Adam and Adam knew her. She bore a twin.
jundurias 3 months ago
@jundurias 4. Cain was the child of the serpent, and Abel the child of Adam the child of God. The serpent was not a snake but it became a snake after God cursed him. In the law of reproduction the bible said that everything reproduce according to its kind. Jesus once said, "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. But look how evil Cain was, he even withstood God to the face. Adam and Eve were both good, children of God created to His likeness.
jundurias 3 months ago
@jundurias 5. When Eve bore Seth, she said , God appointed me ANOTHER seed INSTEAD of Abel. She knew that Cain was not the seed of God nor seed of Adam.
In the bible there are two genealogies. One of Adam and one of Cain. After thousands of years of mixed marriages
no one can determine who are the descendants of Adam nor of Cain but God only. Jesus was not lying nor making presumptous statement when He told some of the Pharisees, "You are of your father the devil".
jundurias 3 months ago
@jundurias 6. In John 3:12 the apostle John called Cain of the wicked one. "wicked one" means the devil.
The descendants of Adam and Eve who were created in the likeness of God are sheeps, elected, predestinated, while the descendants of Cain like Judas, pharao, Ananias and Saphira were goats and cannot be saved.
jundurias 3 months ago
@jundurias 7. When I was a new believer I thought that everyone will be saved if there is someone who will testify to Him of the gospel and will lead him to Christ without giving up. But I noticed that there are some extremely evil person who will even mock the gospel. There are serial killers who doesn't show even a slight of guilt. How can these people believe and repent? No wonder Jesus said to the rich man, "Even a dead person will rise from the grave and testify yet he will not believe.
jundurias 3 months ago
@jundurias 8. When a wax and clay, both exposed to the same heat, the wax will melt, while the clay will hardened. Why ? Because it is their characterestics.
When a sheep and a goat both hear the same gospel, the sheep's heart will melt and he will fall down to his knee and will ask forgiveness from God. The goat will harden his heart and mock God. Why? Because it is their characteristics. Election and Predestination is biblical. I am not a calvinist, I don't believe in trinity and tithing.
jundurias 3 months ago
@jundurias The Trinity is Biblical. Doesn't use the wort 'Trinity'.. uses the word GODHEAD.
margovallen 3 months ago
@margovallen, Godhead means the state of being god. It does not speak of 3 persons.
Col 2:9 " For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. "---It means that in Jesus dwells all the fullness of being God. It doesn't mean that 3 persons dwell in Jesus.
The doctrine of trinity says that there is one God but 3 divine persons, and that these 3 persons dwell in the Godhead. But this verse says that the godhead dwells in Jesus because godhead means the state of being god, not trinity.
jundurias 3 months ago
@jundurias Godhead is one God.. a triune being made up of three persons. God the Father.. God the Son.. and God the Holy Spirit. I'm, not sure why this is so difficult to understand and accept.. as the average human being is basically made up of two :
I and my spirit. You and your spirit. Each person of the Godhead has His own job, as it were. God sits on His throne.. Jesus is God in the flesh.. and the Holy Spirit is God in spirit.
A sound knowledge of God is crucial to Salvation.
margovallen 3 months ago
@margovallen, 1. " I'm, not sure why this is so difficult to understand and accept.. as the average human being is basically made up of two:"---- Because it is not in the scriptures. Moreover I and my spirit are not 2 persons.
"A sound knowledge of God is crucial to Salvation."---- Right, but trinity is not a sound knowledge. There is no doctrine of trinity in the bible both the old and new testament. Actually it is a contradiction to the scriptures. It was invented by the Catholic church.
jundurias 3 months ago
@jundurias If your spirit leaves your body, what then? That was an example to make a point. Totally apples and apples? No. The Bible READS lots of things that its not really 'saying.' The term "Trinity" is not in the Bible and Godhead is. You are inaccurate in your assumption as to what that is. Theres your mistake. We have words and they must have meaning. Evidently, you fail to understand that certain Biblical Truths aren't going to be found in one passage. Hence, read, study, PRAY.
margovallen 3 months ago
(cont) You believe that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh, yes? "Contradictions" (as it were) in the Word of God are only so to the UN-believer. We must be born-again and the Holy Spirit will clear all of that up. It's paramount having the Holy Spirit to guide us unto TRUTH. Relying on our human intellect will allow us to fall short of this. A person receives the Holy Spirit immediately upon trusting in Jesus Christ.
Anyone whom denies the Trinity, I would question their Salvation.
margovallen 3 months ago
@margovallen , The meaning of godhead: Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 1 AV — Godhead deity
a) the state of being God, Godhead
Please research the meaning of godhead in Col 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
jundurias 3 months ago
@jundurias Everything you say here is TRUE! And Biblically, God is 3 persons.. all 3 equal..... that make up God.
If you'd like to have the 'last word'.. go for it. I have stated my piece... based on the Biblical TRUTHS of God.
Not sure of your affiliation.. so, maybe you'll shed some light on that? And it does indeed matter. Maybe you're a JW, Mormon, etc?
margovallen 3 months ago
@margovallen , 2. The bible teach all the way of only one God. Jesus is that one God who manifested in the flesh. Jesus has 2 nature, the divine and the human. The divinity in Jesus is the only God, the Father. The manifestation in the flesh is the Son of God. There is no God the Son in the bible. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God that is in Jesus. It is not the thhird person of God. We were brainwashed by the Catholic church which is anti Christ.
The Catholic church is the whore in Rev.
jundurias 3 months ago
@jundurias True! One God.... in THREE PERSONS (*personalities). The Whore of Babylon may be Israel and the Catholic Church, the daughter. The 'fall of Babylon' is the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.. (Rev. 17:9, Rev. 18)
Several Old Testament prophets referred to Jerusalem as being a spiritual harlot and a mother of such harlotry (Isaiah 1:21; Jeremiah 2:20; Jeremiah 3:1-11; Ezekiel 16:1-43; Ezekiel 23, Galatians 4:25).
margovallen 3 months ago
Comment removed
jundurias 3 months ago
o.o I can hear his dry throat swallowing after he coughs...uuhggo
nashiPAGE 4 months ago
'We should not like women boiling their children, but we should approve of God's decision that it happen.' WHAAAT??!
sizesmall1756 4 months ago
God's perfect justice against sin was satisfied on the cross. A greater wrath is going to be poured out upon those who twist the Gospel and misrepresents God. Calvinism with its vile doctrine of predestination and election is a very good candidate.
lessingtom 4 months ago
@lessingtom When you hate idiotic Calvinists, you scoop to their level. God is love. Why would you want to become just like them? Take the higher road. Calvinists are clearly wrong but don't hate them. Instead, pray for them.
mspsys 4 months ago
@mspsys
You have done something I would never do because it is very dangerous. You called them "idiots." I merely reiterated what Paul says in Gal 1: 8 and 9: "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." (Gal 1:8). Are they preaching the Gospel Paul preached? If not, then they are accursed. Paul said it, not I. Did Paul hate the false apostles in his time? No! he wanted to shock them to their senses.
lessingtom 4 months ago
Respond to this video...
The questionnaire said: "I believe in the doctrine of election . . ." That seems to be in harmony with what Jesus said in John 14:1: "Believe in the doctrine of election, believe also in the doctrine of election." And John Piper, refining this belief, said: Believe in the true doctrine of election, believe also in the true doctrine of election." Who can argue with that? Did I say that lovingly and compassionately enough mspsys?
lessingtom 4 months ago
God likes to elect some and damn the rest?
lessingtom 4 months ago
God grieves over sending people to hell. So all throughout eternity God is going to be upset because of people burning in hell? Isnt he pleased because his wrath against sin is being satisfied?
Scottles293 5 months ago
@Scottles293
God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Isn't that what He says?
lessingtom 4 months ago
@lessingtom that doesnt mean that His perfect justice against sin isnt satisfied when He pours out His wrath on unbelievers.
Scottles293 4 months ago
I wonder if Piper believes that God is the author of sin. It would seem so.
Also, God CANNOT tempt! James 1:13-15
JaffarDS 5 months ago 2
Calvinism destroys faith.
SpaceAboveSky 5 months ago
Did he say "double perspectives?" Sort of like doublethink?
At least Piper honestly believes this nonsense, unlike liars like Oral Roberts. So he's just ignorant, but NOT evil. That's good, I suppose...
Megaritz 6 months ago
The True doctrine of election? Is the true doctrine of election that Christ loves all people but did not die for most of them? Is it that He loves some people and hates the rest? Is it that he, John Piper, is one of the select few whom God loves and died for on the cross and has chosen unto salvation before the foundation of the earth? Is it that He has reprobated all those who do not believe in the true doctrine of election?
lessingtom 7 months ago
Don't like it? Well, you obviously aren't seeing the real thing.
Backpedaling, are we?
Blarghonius 7 months ago
predestiniation is used twice in the bible....both times it is addressed to saved people.....piper has a lot of wisdom ....but not on this subject.
jonniec7 7 months ago
@jonniec7 You did not choose me, but I chose you. - Jesus
skalapunk 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."
John 8:47.
Clear explanation of election!
DirtyABirdy 8 months ago
This guy is really good. Says it so well and is totally down to earth.
serioussi 8 months ago
Dear amyamywebb I sincerely hope what I am about to say does not offend you.
I totally understand the Doctrine of "I know JESUS and I am going to heaven but You don't and You are going to burn in hell forever"
That makes me sad for a few reasons. The first and best reason is sometimes say things before we put very much thought into what we are saying, We assume things. There is a FREE book on line that might be worth your time to scan HOPE BEYOND HELL. get back with me if You'd like
howsziz 8 months ago
When these well known preacher/teachers take on SALVATION by GRACE and NEVER ENDING TORTURE in HELL we hear things like what we just heard here ABSOLUTE UN BIBLICAL NONSENSE, These men understand something is WRONG, with BILLIONS being TORTURED in a NEVER Ending HELL By a MERCIFUL GOD who IS LOVE who inspired 1st Corinthians chapter 13 . You cannot tell the truth when you do not know the truth. But you can make things up like Mr Piper just did.
howsziz 8 months ago
@howsziz is there love without justice? But for the grace of God, I would be hell-bound. Look to Jesus.
amyamywebb 8 months ago
This explanation of election is nothing short of guilt manipulation. God has engrained within our conscience a sense of what is just and what is abhorrently unjust. It instinctively strikes us as inhjerrently unjust that God should create people whom he simultaneously commands to repent and renders incapable of repenting because he has not chosen them. And yet we are told here that to feel that that is unjust is actually sinful, because it is supposedly disliking what God likes.
RMarshall57 9 months ago
@RMarshall57 Agreed - such is the folly of Calvinism - contorting, twisting, and manipulating texts to the point of positing a list of dichotomies under the banner of sovereignty. God justly elects some to perish, while Paul wishes himself accursed for the sake of his "kinsmen according to the flesh". Would this then be drawing nigh unto blasphemy (according to Piper)? Maybe Paul should have been erased from the book of life for desiring to thwart the plan of God...silly Calvinists!
Wunji1 7 months ago
@Wunji1
Excellent answer!
lessingtom 7 months ago
Sorry, but this is a big miss! Jesus, in the Garden, prayed for the cup to pass from him, showinf CLEAR dislike for waht was coming, but his obedience, in SPITE of that personal dislike, is the heart that God seeks. Disliking it is fleshly, obedience, true heart obedience, is the spiritual.
While Jesus' flesh had not sinned, it still did not desire, or like, if you will, what was going to come, the pain and death.
buzzbbird 10 months ago
here is what i think about election, and im probably wrong, please be gentle. I think that there are people who God chooses to elect and predestine for salvation (the disciples,the apostles, my mother,she has quite a story). i also think that one element of common grace is that all people may have a chance for salvation and for attaining saving grace. I think as well as election, God pursues people and gives them a choice. there is more, but thats basically it. like i said, im probably wrong.
mastercheef12345 10 months ago
@mastercheef12345 I don't think you are wrong. God's will is for everyone to come to repentance. And he says whosoever wills can be saved. That means it's available for everyone. But as you know not everyone will be saved. Since he is omniscient, he knows beforehand who will and will not receive him. Im struggling with this question, since God knows a person will reject him anyway, is he going to waste his time to call that person? But if he calls him that means he is called to follow him right?
indoernst 8 months ago
I keep asking people who believe in this view of election how they Justify it in the view of where it says "God's desire is for all to be saved". Can his will and his desire be in conflict? I am not saying God doesn't know who will be saved, he is omnscient so of course he does, but it is a matter of weather it is passive or direct.
BenjaminWirtz 11 months ago
right on brother, let's go do some knockin for jesus glory, glory, glory!!!!!
kellyrodewald 11 months ago
oops thought the first 1 didnt post lol goin on and on like a preacher lol
kellyrodewald 11 months ago
I love you brother, so i debate in love. I agree that the spirit had to work in me first, but jesus said "I knock at the door" I believe he knocks on every door (human heart). When u say that it's so we can come to him. That is where I make this point. The word is "can" come to him, not "must" come to him. He truly is the author of my faith. I do not boast. heard it put this way. The door to heaven has a sign on the outside "free will" another on the inside "chosen" bless u and glory to god
kellyrodewald 11 months ago
@kellyrodewald am sorry but have to disagree with you since now am sure there is no such thing as freewill !! why you ask? well the will does not make choices it is the mind that makes the choice the will follows so if the natural man cannotunderstand the things of GOD for to him they are foolishness 1st corin; ch;2;14 because sin decieves him into thinking that its craziness so once the mind has decided this is not for me because of sin than the choice is made but it is not a free
patriotsfan1379 10 months ago
@kellyrodewald free choice its a choice based on the decietfullness of sin that enslaves the mind so if the mind is fallen the will must by necessity follow only when GOD regenerates a man and gives him faith only than can man through GOD giving faith can make choices for the things of GOD than and only than can there be no boasting
patriotsfan1379 10 months ago
I don't like everything and I don't understand everything. All I know is that I love my GOD. I pray to GOD to help me to understand why things are the way they are and he has been gracious enough to answer me on a number of occasions by his holy spirit or through his ministering angels. I did not understand why JESUS had to die on the cross. Now I understand why and it breaks my heart more than ever.
voyagersystem 1 year ago
I agree with almost everything, except that God 'likes' hell by any stretch of the imagination or God 'sending' anyone to hell.
Drooblemeister 1 year ago 2
@Drooblemeister God never said He liked Hell. People in Hell sent themselves there. They chose Hell over Heaven.
margovallen 3 months ago
I understand the concept of people sending themselves there, but if people are deceived, do they really have full access to their free-will? I wish I could just accept it and move on, but then I feel, who if they had the veil lifted would 'choose' hell instead of heaven? Another question I've asked is if majority of humanity is lost and in an eternal state of constant torture, does God in the end get everything He wants? The whole heaven/hell issue is not an easy subject..
Drooblemeister 3 months ago
@Drooblemeister We are to rightly divide the Word to reprove ourselves. Any 'deception' gets thwarted to the true born-again believer. If the veil were lifted and we could all see into Hell, I cannot imagine anyone choosing Hell at that point. But, thats not the way it is and we must believe and accept it all by faith. Having 'proof' takes no faith. God want us to believe Him at His Word.God does not desire anyone go to Hell.. as it was made for the devil and his angels.
margovallen 3 months ago
God may not get everything He wants.. as UN-believers see to that. But, He loves us just the same.. even though, not everybody reciprocates. The desires of the UN-believer is to be away from God.. wanting nothing to do with him. So, God gives them what they want.. in this life and the next. Hence, Hell aka the place void of God.
margovallen 3 months ago
@Drooblemeister It is a very easy subject.
To illustrate, let's say your neighbor sneaks into your home in the dark and pretends to be you so that he can have sex with your wife. Your wife has no idea it's your neighbor - she thinks it's you - so she has sex with him. The next day, you find out about this and beat/divorce (whatever you're into) your wife - who was tricked - for cheating on you.
That is what God allegedly does to those who are decieved by Satan. Satan tricks us into
SeedsOfHatred 1 week ago
You wanna know something? I believe, and many other Christians like myself also believe that God will not allow anyone to go to hell on the basis they were deceived, some people in this life do decide to follow satan on their own free-will, satan can decieve us, but he cannot force us to do anything against our will, but we can submit our will to him if we choose. I also don't believe God 'predestined' anyone to go to hell, the Bible never says this anywhere.. Peace,
Drooblemeister 1 week ago
@Drooblemeister "but he cannot force us to do anything against our will"
This would be relevant if, in my analogy, the wife had been raped. But "force" is entirely different from "tricking" someone into doing something.
To illustrate once more, I'm an atheist because I feel it is the most logical position to take, based on the evidence (or lack thereof). This is not something I'm "chooosing" to do; it's simply the logical default. If this turns out to be a trick of the Devil, how is
SeedsOfHatred 1 week ago
@Drooblemeister (Part 2) this my fault? How is this ANYONE'S fault?
It's not. So, by your logic, God should not send me (or any like-minded atheist) to Hell for being non-believers - which I'm sure you know goes against your entire theology.
Welcome to the world of theological contradictions.
SeedsOfHatred 1 week ago
I never said he wouldn't, I'm said he wouldn't send someone to hell on the sole basis they were deceived, but I also said that everyone has a free-will and satan does not 'make us' do anything against our will. The desire to escape hell was not the reason why I decided to become a Christian, it had to do w/ the fact that God grabbed a hold of my heart, showed me His love expressed in the person of Jesus. If God is real, then we do have free-will, and we do have the capacity to find Him..
Drooblemeister 1 week ago
@Drooblemeister If we assume that Satan is in fact real, and if he does decieve us, then in that sense yes, he DOES "force" us to do this or that by way of deception. I realize I earlier claimed that force and trickery were different, but after some thought, I realized they're not. You can "force" someone to do something by convincing them through deception to do it.
So again, how is this our fault?
SeedsOfHatred 1 week ago
@Drooblemeister (Part 2) not believing in God, or into doing what is "bad", and God punishes us for it. What's more, Christians standing on the side-lines tell us non-believers that we "chose it for ourselves".
If God is real, and if there is a Devil decieving us, then we are no more at fault for our mindset than your wife would be for being tricked. For this reason, if God punishes us in Hell, then he is an irrational tyrant who chooses a hissy-fit over logic.
It's really quite that simple.
SeedsOfHatred 1 week ago
SOOOOOOO goood!!!!
GodsGlory3 1 year ago
election is a lovely doctrine. It tells us how God operates in salvation, how could that be anything else but good? Sure, God choses who to save, but out of a world of God hating, stone hearted men, who if left to their own will would NEVER have come to Christ. In fact they'ed rather go to hell than surrender to God, So everyone gets what they want in election. This just makes it even more wonderful that God changed our hearts to desire to know the lord, enabling us to have something that we now
djr3000 1 year ago
@djr3000 are so thankful for, and know that we were blind to see the light in, not because God forced sin upon us, but because we loved our sin and hated Jesus.
djr3000 1 year ago
@djr3000
Are you seriously looking forward to existing for ETERNITY? Heaven sounds terrible to me.
mfentruck 1 year ago
@djr3000 Ya, everyone would prefer eternal misery over eternal bliss - makes perfect sense.
You're kidding right?
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead I maintain my point; those who go to hell hate it, but they'd rather be there than with the God they hate so much, (and they will hate him completely when God removes all his grace from their lives) burning with the full measure of his glory. If you're presented with the gospel now and find it repulsive, you wouldnt like to be in God's presence, and as a sinner faced with his holiness, it would be infinately more unbearable. As a sinner you couldnt hack heaven.
djr3000 1 year ago
@djr3000 The only reason anyone would hate God is exactly because He has YET to give them His grace - and it is HIS choice when to do so. If you are a Calvinist you should agree completely with this truth, and yet you imply instead that people "deserve" hell because of some choice that THEY made - completely contradicting your own doctrines.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead "...thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to conflict." -John Calvin (Book 1, Chapter 17, paragraph 5)
apollos6640 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead youve got the cart before the horse. Man hates god (the biblical God), the sinful mind is hostile to God rom 8;7. Jesus said the world hates him (john 15;18). Its not as if there's billions lined up begging a cruel God to forgive them, as no one who seeks God (rom 3;11). Its not that God wont forgive man, its that man in his natural state is unable to come to god because he is so opposed to him in his heart that he cant do it. This deepens man's guilt rather than extenuating it.
djr3000 1 year ago
@djr3000 It is you sir, who have the cart before the horse, for it was God who created man - it was He who gave man his sinful nature. We did not choose our nature - we INHERITED it by divine decree. Would you condemn to eternal hell a child with Downs syndrome because he was born with it? I doubt it, but that is exactly what you are claiming God will do.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead The bible clearly tells us that god decreed everything that will ever happen, including sin (for if he ordained the crucifiction before the foundation of the world (Acts 4;28) , then he must have ordained that sin would come into the world so jesus had something to save us from). But the bible also teaches that God is neither the auther of sin, nor does he tempt anyone with sin (james1;13,14), but that man sins by his own volition james1;17. We have to accept both these truths.
djr3000 1 year ago
@djr3000 If God created us with a sinful nature then we cannot NOT sin. To say that God made me a sinner but is just in punishing me for sinning is ridiculous, and yet these are the two interpretations that you are trying to convince me, and yourself, are both true. Since you have already admitted that you do not have all the answers, but must simply trust that glaring contradictions must somehow be "true," perhaps it is because it is your interpretations themselves which are in error.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead i have shown you that my interpretations are scripturally valid. You have simply repudiated and brushed off every verse i have given you. The problem lies not in calvinistic interpretations, but the immediate conclusions drawn by the finite mind that is afraid to accept these flagrant truths. We should accept them as truth eventhough we cant understand them. It doesnt mean God's character is flawed, just that our scope of understanding is finite.
djr3000 1 year ago
@djr3000 I brush off nothing - I take the entire Bible in context - and the context is the redemption of mankind. If I accept your theology - that God has chosen to hate my fellow man - is that supposed to be "good" news to me?
Well it's not, and it does not represent the God that I know. If you know a different one then your welcome to spend eternity with him while the rest of humanity rots in hell. If that scenario is OK with you then I guess I understand the condition of your heart.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead i have not tried to belittle you or to patronise you, but you feel free to make malicious statements about my character. I said you are brushing off my points because for every scripture text i have shown you in support of my views, you have not told me how i am misinterpreting them and how you reconcile them to your own views. My posts have been replete with scriptural references to bolster my standpoints, and so far, i dont think you have used one.
djr3000 1 year ago
@djr3000 What malicious comment? I simply restated what you believe. If it points to any maliciousness in you then perhaps you are just finally recognizing what you had yet to admit to.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead essentially saying my doctrine meant i was an unbeliever;
"If that scenario is OK with you then I guess I understand the condition of your heart."
Utterly gratuitous comment.
djr3000 1 year ago
@djr3000 I never said you were an unbeliever for it is very obvious that you believe something, as we all do. I merely pointed out your own conclusion and you felt insulted when I repeated it back to you.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead You agree with election,however you just think God has elected everyone for salvation,when scripture plainly proves the opposite.There are 2 groups.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN How handy that you consider yourself a member of the chosen group.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead I didn't consider myself part of the chosen group until I understood what it all meant a couple of years ago.I do know ,however,that God saved me in a motel room while I was by myself 16 years ago.I was on my way out the door to go find a bar and party,but the Lord lead me to read the Bible in the room,and saved me that very night.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN I thought He saved you before the foundation of the world?
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead I was elected before the foundation of the world to be saved at a certain point in my life,however,just like Jesus being slain before the foundation of the world,God just created a future for it to all happen in.In God's mind everything has already been done,the rest for Him are just formalities.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN Such an interesting "formality" - to send most of His own offspring to eternal torment.
He's quite a god, this god of yours.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead I didn't write the Bible,nor do I have anything to do with what God has planned,I'm just a participant like everyone else.If you find the God of the Bible offensive,that's between you and God.All I can say is thank God for Jesus Christ.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN No, I do not find the God of the Bible offensive, for He is the savior of the world. I simply find the "god" of Calvinism offensive, for he is petty and unloving.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@CBALLEN "All I can say is thank God for Jesus Christ."
And what do the non-elect have to thank God for? Nothing.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead Most of the none elect don't care about Jesus Christ and would just as soon spit on Him.Then you have others who don't like the God of the Bible and choose to worship one they are more comfortable with instead.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN They don't care about him simply because God has not yet drawn them to him. That is His choice when to do so. Your own Calvinist theology has declared that God decided NOT to reveal Himself to them, but the Bible says otherwise.
"When I am lifted up I will draw all men to me."
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead All just means Jews and Gentiles In the big picture,instead of Jews only as it was in the OT.God has created the wicked for the day of evil and fitted people for destruction,like Pharaoh,Judas, Jezebel,Eli's sons,ALL THE PEOPLE IN THE WORLD but 8 people in the flood ect.I just don't know why you refuse to believe the truth?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN I do believe the truth, Tim. It is just YOUR version of it that is so distasteful and ungodly.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead It may be to your god's distaste,but the One True God doesn't find it distasteful,He ordained it all to be the way that it is.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN If your God does not find it distasteful to slaughter His own children then I could not possibly love Him. If you can then I guess we understand each other.
Peace to you my friend. Enjoy eternity.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead Well,you've told the truth there,only the elect will Love Him.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@CBALLEN "Well,you've told the truth there,only the elect will Love Him."
And He decided who that would be.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead I do pray God will save you.God Bless
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN But He has already decided whether or not to save me, right? Your prayers now are worthless.
Peace
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."
He forgives you too Tim.
I wish you nothing but peace, good day.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@CBALLEN "I do pray God will save you."
I guess I will be saved then IF I believe that God hates most of my fellow man - His own "beloved"(?) creations.
I am sure looking forward to believing that.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead So you really think Jesus was lying to the Pharisees?And as far as praying for someones salvation,God knows what we will pray before we know,therefore all prayers were known in eternity past, before we ever utter them.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN You only want me to be saved if I am among the elect, otherwise you want me in eternal hell. Or are you implying that you want what God does NOT want?
I am through arguing Tim. If it gives you peace to believe in the "god" of Calvinism then I wish you all the best.
Adios amigo
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead I pray that God has elected you and therefore will change your heart into a believer of the real Jesus Christ.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN He already has Tim... He already has.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
Comment removed
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@CBALLEN I can picture you on your knees, Tim, praying to your loving Heavenly Father - "Oh, please God, please reveal to Jim that Jesus doesn't love everyone."
Enough said.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@CBALLEN Rom. 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
Whoever is included in the "all men" in the first part is also included in the "all men" of the second part. But apparently to you those are two different groups. Your interpretation of scripture only "proves" that you have your own opinion - nothing else.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead Why won't people keep reading,they never quote Romans 5:19.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN Rom. 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
How "many" were made sinners? ALL
How "many" will be made righteous? ALL
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead Many are called with the general call,but few are chosen with the effectual call.That alone nullifies your Universalism.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN I bow to your wisdom and concede to your "truth" - God hates mankind.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@CBALLEN Is He just teasing those with a "general" call when He really has no intention of saving them?
How cute.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead We who are believers give the general call through the preaching of the word to the masses,only those who God makes born again through His word will believe.Since we can't know who the elect are,we are told to take the Gospel to every creature.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN So you are essentially lying to most who hear your message.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead I don't lie to anyone about salvation,I preach it just like the disciples,Jesus died for sinners and who ever calls on His name will be saved.The lie comes when you tell everyone JESUS LOVES YOU AND DIED FOR YOU,the disciples never evangelized like that.That alone should give people pause in their belief and how they evangelize.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN Ok, Tim, let's tell everyone else the "truth" - Jesus hates you and did NOT die for your sins.
And while we're at it let's just tell them that John was lying also when he said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world."
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@CBALLEN I have no need to argue with you Tim. If you wish to believe that God hates most of your fellow man then you go right ahead and do so. That is a matter of your heart, and how you view the nature of our Heavenly Father.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead Well Jim,if you think that Jesus is gonna save everyone who ever lived then go ahead,but that's not what scripture teaches and especially not what Jesus taught.Sin is a terrible thing and if Jesus said many will be cast in to the Lake of fire,I'd believe Him if I were you,there'd be no reason to evangelize if it weren't true.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN According to your theology I can only believe Him if He chooses to reveal Himself to me. If He hasn't then it just shows that I was predestined for hell anyway.
I love Him more already. Thanks.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@CBALLEN We evangelize in order to tell people the truth - that Jesus DID take away the sin of the world, not this lie that He did not.
The truth IS good news. Your message is not.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead The thing is,it's clear that not all will be saved.Jesus came specifically for HIS PEOPLE,He told the Pharisees that they wouldn't escape Hell.It wouldn't make any difference at all in telling people Jesus died for sinners if everyone ends up in Heaven,eat ,drink and be merry for tomorrow we all end up in Heaven.Who cares about any fruit of salvation,it doesn't matter,good tree,evil tree,we're all the same in the end.That's just silly and dangerous to teach that.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN "Dangerous" to who? The elect are predestined for heaven, and the non-elect are not. What could possibly change that?
You contradict your own theology by implying otherwise.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead Well,if someone is teaching a false gospel then their fruit is rotten of course none of that means anything to you,because Hitlers at Jesus' feet as we speak,right?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN "Hitlers at Jesus' feet as we speak,right?"
You would be correct. "Where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more."
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@CBALLEN And when did sin have anything to with salvation? We are all sinners, but according to you only a few "elect" have had their sins taken away.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@djr3000 Just WHAT are you trying to convince me to believe my friend? That God hates most of His creation? Sorry, but I will not. If that is what you want to believe you have every right to, but then there is certainly nothing I can say that will change your mind, or any scriptures that I can provide that you won't twist to support your interpretations.
I am not challenging your thinking in order to get you to think worse about yourself, but to get you to think BETTER about God.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead are you really "AFRAID to accept these FLAGRANT TRUTHS"? is that REALLY the problem, that You're AFRAID? I was under the assumption that you're just not DUMB enough to accept their conclusions based on BAD hermeneutics. And these are their conclusions, that God acts NOT by LOVE, but by "the good pleasure of his will", that God gives man a Law that it cannot possibly obey, and condemns him for not obeying.
apollos6640 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead Where's the Mercy or Compassion? the Calvin god doesn't respond to anyone but simply acts because HE is pleased to save some and damn others. He is deceptive, he commands ONE THING, and DECREES precisely the contrary. He commands us to obey, but has decreed that the reprobate can't obey. He says, "I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked." when in fact, the wicked die for his good pleasure.
apollos6640 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead He pleas with man to change his course, but in fact he urges them on to sin in ruin! Yeah, these are their Calvinism conclusions that you're just too "AFRAID to Accept".
apollos6640 1 year ago
@apollos6640 Yep, those would be the ones (among many).
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@apollos6640 So which is it,are you an Open Theist or a Universalist?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead Ask yourself what are your motives? Are you truly depressed that god choses who to save (and he doesnt owe salvation to anyone rom11;35) or are you simply raging against him in your heart, making calumunies against the Almighty and justifying yourself. These things are hard to understand, and there is much contradiction in them to the human mind, but his understanding is higher than our understanding, so i trust he is good even though i dont have all the answers.
djr3000 1 year ago
@djr3000 My motives are only to declare God's all-encompassing love for mankind. God's unconditional love is not hard to understand. It is Calvinism which creates the contradictions: declaring that God is love but that He hates mankind; declaring that God is sovereign but man is responsible; declaring that God created man but man will be damned to eternal hell for his nature, as if man created himself.
You say that God is "good" - what is good about a god who creates people for eternal misery?
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
@Thinkinginstead Please if you will, refute the context in which i have used each bible verse i have quoted. Show me where you go in the bible to substantiate your claims. You say God loves everyone, but the bible says "The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul HATES." ps 11;5. So calvinistic thinking does not pull these ideas out of the air. Ultimately, you're telling the bible what you're estimation of a good God is, im accepting the bibles definition
djr3000 1 year ago
@djr3000 For every scripture that you claim "proves" eternal hell I can provide one which I will claim "proves" universal salvation. The Bible is filled with seeming contradictions so that we will look with our hearts to find the true nature of God - which was revealed in His son. "If you have seen me you have seen my Father."
Why don't I just accept your theology and admit that God has chosen to "love" some, and hate all the rest by virtue of His godly" nature.
Wow! That really is good news.
Thinkinginstead 1 year ago
This is insane. It sounds like God the father is schizophrenic in 1st off, creating something JUST to destroy it (predestining someone to hell, etc.)
Then 2ndly supposedly feeling bad about what evil He created & allowed. And then expecting humans to not just agree with Him, but for us to worship His despite (or more) of this horrible thing He created, destroyed, or did.
Sogwa 1 year ago
@Sogwa
'It sounds like God the Father is schizophrenic...'
It sounds like you're not saved.
sicstyl 1 year ago
@sicstyl
Well if getting saved is saying a simple 3 sentence prayer (which isn’t even in the bible) or raising your hand to walk down the aisle (like every American church I ever went to did) then I 1st did that when I was 12 then every week afterwards b/c I never felt anything or any different!
If it’s not that simple (like Paul Washer says) as simply walking forward & repeating sentences .....................
Sogwa 1 year ago
@Sogwa (pt. 2)
..............(like none of the African or foreign churches ever seem to do, i.e., have a call to salvation after each service) then HOW DO You GET SAVED & INTO HEAVEN?!?!
After EVERY Paul Washer or John Piper video, they make it plain how to determine if you ARE saved, but the NEVER tell you the solution if you or not!
Why is that?
Is it that if you disagree with or questions the Bible, God, & points of ..............
Sogwa 1 year ago
@Sogwa (pt. 3)
.............Calvinism or any other denomination your NOT saved. If so, how do you successfully get saved (outside of the obvious 3 sentence prayer that most humans know by heart)?!?!
And more so if you don’t love God, or love yourself WAY more than God, or just want to get saved to avoid hell (as Satan & everyone else does) and NOT because you love God & want to be with Him – then is it impossible 4 you to ever successfully be saved?!?!?!
Sogwa 1 year ago
@Sogwa
Being saved is means to REPENT. One must come to REPENTANCE in order to be saved. Repentance is not just the turning away from sin, it is the total turning away from self in its entirety, meaning, turning away from self's own fallible perception/judgment/feelings concerning what is true and depending totally on God's truth.. Which is all done through God's grace.
sicstyl 1 year ago
Accepting that doctrine -especially the part where God purposes isome for hell - means detachment from concern for others (and self). Wouldn't a just God by nature care for the souls he creates? If not, why not. I mean would God use created beings like objects in a purely utilitarian manner? Doesn't compute
rdor011 1 year ago
afroschlan,
????????????????????
Unless I terrible misunderstand you, you are saying that sin is the creation of weak minds. Then it's okay for someone to kill a member of your family or take something of yours by force, because the "wrongness" of those actions are no founded in anything but your ideological bankruptcy. Correct!?!?
PastorJody 2 years ago
Fascinating ideological bankruptcy. To justify a bankrupt notion is to slap mythological labels onto it. Sin = mystical no no's, unfounded and unproven.. Can I disprove it? No.. thus for it automatically becomes plausible by the ideologically bankrupt lower branches.. the peasants of religion. This is beyond sad.
afroschlan 2 years ago
This was a great answer. When I was lost, I didn't like the doctrine of election. When I was saved, I totally agreed with it. The problem people have with the doctrine of election is that they just can't totally let go of self. The refusal to accept election is from an 'all about me' position. The ability to accept it is from an 'all about God' position.
sicstyl 2 years ago 13
@sicstyl I cannot readily accept the Doct. of Election for the very fact that I cannot believe in a system where it is impossible for OTHERS to acquire rightful salvation from God. It is not about my own salvation. My God-given inability to not care about fates of others has me turning my back on this doctrine, and I simply cannot help it.
FearMonstro 1 year ago
@FearMonstro
The inability to accept the doctrine of election is a byproduct of one's refusal to totally submit to God's will. God is God REGARDLESS of whether he saves or not. That's the problem with people.. They refuse to accept that. He has chosen to save. If he didn't, he'd still be God and totally justified. When people argue over 'fairness' and 'inclusiveness', they are actually saying that if God doesn't accommodate their rationale, THEN HE ISN'T GOD NOR IS HE GOOD.
sicstyl 1 year ago
@sicstyl
He can definitely be God & definitely decide & chose who to save & who to throw in hell. But this does NOT seem just let alone good in any way. Any intelligent being outside of God in this universe (not just earth) will agree that creating something or someone just to destroy it is evil and not sane. If a human kid did that, the parents would immediately send him to therapy.
Animal rights activist complain on how hospitals treat rodents & wild animals so .....
Sogwa 1 year ago
(pt. 2)
.............cruel just to find cures for humans & other animals - & we are infallible, sinful, screw ups of people. how can a God who creates & controls all things be more inconsiderate & cruel to purposely create something (angels) or someone (people) just to get His kicks off by throwing them in hell?!
Sogwa 1 year ago
@Sogwa
'Any intelligent being outside of God in this universe (not just earth) will agree that creating something or someone just to destroy it is evil and not sane.'
That's the problem. You don't understand the situation. God doesn't throw innocent beings into hell. He casts EVIL there. And that is what HUMANS ARE outside of Christ. If God saves, he's been just. If he doesn't, he's been just.
sicstyl 1 year ago