I was in Thomas Mauriello's criminalistics class at UMD! He showed us part of the doc in lecture, I have to say he told us he was not happy with some of the theories presented in this documentary for dramatic purposes. Great prof though :)
Um, does anyone else notice that Abby's scarf is torn to shreds, with many cut marks of varying sizes? They could have just gone from 1 tear to the next until they found one that fit the axe.
The case is already solved. Lizzie did it. Even back then there was enough evidence to convict. She got away because the jury couldn't believe a woman could commit such a horrible crime.
What is bewildering is, why would lizzie kill while the maid, Briggit was there. Would'nt that be stupid?..inless they where both in on it. Where they great freinds or lovers? it makes no since. If a stranger or someone who held a gruge like who lizzie dad denied a loan or the bank repo someones house held a gruge, why leave the maid and lizzie who could possible hear or seen something, alive. I really believe lizzie and her maid killed them. why kill them when the maid was there?makes no sense.
@anursewhocares I never thought about the possibility that Lizzie had a partner, in fact I don't know if anybody ever did, they always make it out like she did it alone, but YES, good question, and I was wondering the same thing the other day, HOW could anybody in the house at the time of the murder not hear anything? Andrew was supposedly asleep but Abby was tidying up the room, she would be conscious when she was attacked, wouldn't she have screamed?
@TheBookWorm1718 Abbie was killed before Andrew. She whacked her off, before Mr. Borden came home. She claims she told her father, Mrs. Borden was out visiting a sick friend, someone stopped by and gave Mrs. Borden a note. Which they never found (note) or the person who supposedly delivered it. Lizzie probably over heard the Borden's saying Lizzie and Emma have to go, cut them off. Emma left town, and Lizzie said, I'll show you who's cut off. lol Lizzie paid for Maggie to go back to Ireland.
@TheBookWorm1718 Yea, if Mrs. Borden screamed, neighbors would have heard it. I always had a funny feeling about the maid, at least knowing what was going down. Bridget "Maggie" said in the transcripts (which are online) that Lizzie and her step-mother got along well. When everybody else said they didn't. "Maggie" was right outside talking to a female neighbor. As if "Maggie" was a look out. Washing windows, indeed. In that heat! Maggie said, Mrs. Borden told her to wash em'. Ya, I bet.
This is stupid. During the trial it was proven that the ax had been the weapon used by fitting it into the Skull of Andrew Borden. What was not proven was who used it to kill with.
@silvereagle2061 The same kind of hatchet was in at least half the houses in Fall River. So what they really proved was that a hatchet of that size was the murder weapon -- not that that particular hatchet was. Not the same thing.
Emma Borden killed them, with Lizzie as an accesory to murder. The motive was money. You see, the next day after the murder, Andrew Borden was scheduled to meet with a lawyer to change his will and name Abby Borden as the owner of his estate upon his death. It would have been changed, if that silly axe had not gotten in the way. Whoopsie.
@wircolac it was solved but the murderer were let go. I think the jury felt sorry for Lizzie Borden because of the years of psychological abuse she endured at the hands of her stepmother and father let it happen. it was her only way to escape the bullying--still doesn't make it right but in a way she was punished for the crime because she was ostracise by family and neighbors. but she lived peacefully and often gave to charities.
I have seen several photos of the crime scene and I'm sure most are just copies as there were probably only limited photographers on the scene at the time. I have never seen anything remotely to pooling or spattering of blood in any of these photos. Him on the couch...nothin. Her on the floor...nothin. What the hell?? I wonder if back then they cleaned the area prior to photographong but even then you hould still be able to see some form of darkening or spots???
@8MCDonalds8 I've noticed that too. Even the sheets on the bed next to Abby's dead body are clean!!! Very strange indeed. I've seen other crime scene photos of the era, and they didn't spare you any details... so I doubt there was a "clean up" before the photos were taken. I'm glad you also noticed that there is no evidence of "cast-off". Very odd.
@Laurisa718 No cast off, no nothing. No blood at all. I mean even in b/w you could still tell if there was any easily. I wonder what the hell that's all about. Veru weird. Someone out there must have some kind of explanation.
on another video a letter was sent to the judge at the trial saying it was from the killer ? some beleive it was the illegitamite son of the dad and this son and lizzie had a role to play in the 2 deaths that day.also its interesting to note that the trial transcripts say that the family had dinner the night before the deaths and some felt sick afterwards! (vomiting etc) and that lizzie tried to obtain some fur coat cleaner from a store!!..hmm...
I have to add this: do you think it worthwhile to try and get the Discovery Channel to release this episode on DVD? I would love to watch it several times and be able to study it more closely. Perhaps if enough people write them, they may consider it. There are other shows on Lizzie available; why not this one, which to me is the most interesting and contains excellent analyses of this case.
But perhaps there are legal impediments, in which case we probably won't see a DVD anytime soon :(
The only way they could have assumed it was cow's blood is that some animal hairs might have been embedded on the axe head. Was this ever mentioned? To me, covering it up with ashes indicated manipulation of evidence.
@loner1878-Wow, you were lucky to have Mauriello as a professor! Did he have anything to say about the blood splatter? I know that blood has to go somewhere-on the person or the wall. I think this case deserves more research into that aspect.
@Cissy2cute It could concieveably be confused with chicken blood. In those days people often had their own chickens, and often killed their chickens that way=by axe.
@gotch09-yes, that certainly is true also. I guess there is just no way now to prove what kind of blood it was. Just imagine if it turned out to be human!
why hasn't anyone mentioned there being no blood on any of the walls or rooms. When hit with an axe it would cause massive arterial spraying to occur, unless ofcourse, they were already dead before the axe blows...?
Well, there's been speculation that the first blow was the fatal one. In any case, it's unfortunate that the picture quality of the day didn't reveal much if any blood splatter.
Lizzie was not "normal" but how could she be, losing her real mother so early and having such a stern, skinflint father.
It does appear Lizzie tried to buy poison before the murders but was unable to. She was also a known kleptomaniac, something which continued long after the murders and indicates psychological problems.
Today, based on forensics and circumstantial evidence I believe Lizzie would have been convicted.
If anyone knows if there is a full verison of this show, please post.
There has been some whispering about Lizzie and her father. There's been whispers that Mr. Borden had at some point molested Lizzie. And that's why she murdered them. Then there was whispers that Lizzie and the maid Bridget were lesbian lovers and that Mrs. Borden caught them and that's why she murdered them. You have to admit that both murders were up close and personnel. And spoke to alot of rage. Both Bordens had to have known their killers. How else could they have come that close with a ax?
@gotch09 - Lizzie being molested by her father-I don't give that much credence. I do believe she was "Daddy's girl". He did favor her over Emma.
Lizzie & Bridget--my husband subscribes to this theory, while I'm up in the air about it. It would not surprise me if LIzzie were a lesbian. Bridget-I'm not so sure.
Lizzie's later behavior and friendship with the actress does seem to indicate Lizzie had little interest in men.
These were certainly murders of passion, no doubt about it!
We'll never know for sure, since everybodys dead and cold in their graves. But the theory that Old man Borden molesting Lizzie would explain such extreme, over the top, brutal murders. Lizzie doing it would also explain how somebody getting that close with a ax and nobody getting unnerved by it. This definetly a act of great hostility and over kill.
@gotch09 But the stepmother got more overkill than the father did, Andrew had his skull slashed in 13 times, Abby was attacked 18 times, yes, obviously hostility and more overkill, but it seems more so aimed at Abby.
@TheBookWorm1718 Didn't take long to figure out that Lizzie had anger management problems with her step mother.And it doesn't take someone with Einstein's i.q. to add that 2+2 and come up with 4.
I still don't understand one point about Lizzie. I think she did it, but why wasn' t there any blood or gore in her hair. She could have easily washed any blood off her skin, but not her hair.
I have no doubt Lizzie did it. After all, old man Borden was not exactly a nice guy, and she probably reached the breaking point. The attitude of the town when hearing of his murder was "well, somebody finally got to him" meaning that he was a very unlikeable and often cruel character.
Great cold case forensics by these two. And we now know with almost 100% certainty that we do have the actual murder weapon. IMO, there is now enough circumstantial evidence pointing to Lizzie.
that does soound about right cuz in one of mondo lizzie's vid's it said there many locks on the door and it was unuasual for a victorian house to have somthing like that in that time
I was in Thomas Mauriello's criminalistics class at UMD! He showed us part of the doc in lecture, I have to say he told us he was not happy with some of the theories presented in this documentary for dramatic purposes. Great prof though :)
loner1878 4 days ago
Um, does anyone else notice that Abby's scarf is torn to shreds, with many cut marks of varying sizes? They could have just gone from 1 tear to the next until they found one that fit the axe.
KayBeeEee1983 6 months ago in playlist Lizzie Borden
see, thats a good start - NOW SOLVE THE FUCKING CASE
Adarvuli 6 months ago
@wircolac how come?
Adarvuli 6 months ago
The case is already solved. Lizzie did it. Even back then there was enough evidence to convict. She got away because the jury couldn't believe a woman could commit such a horrible crime.
saddlesablazin 10 months ago
What is bewildering is, why would lizzie kill while the maid, Briggit was there. Would'nt that be stupid?..inless they where both in on it. Where they great freinds or lovers? it makes no since. If a stranger or someone who held a gruge like who lizzie dad denied a loan or the bank repo someones house held a gruge, why leave the maid and lizzie who could possible hear or seen something, alive. I really believe lizzie and her maid killed them. why kill them when the maid was there?makes no sense.
anursewhocares 10 months ago
@anursewhocares I never thought about the possibility that Lizzie had a partner, in fact I don't know if anybody ever did, they always make it out like she did it alone, but YES, good question, and I was wondering the same thing the other day, HOW could anybody in the house at the time of the murder not hear anything? Andrew was supposedly asleep but Abby was tidying up the room, she would be conscious when she was attacked, wouldn't she have screamed?
TheBookWorm1718 10 months ago
@TheBookWorm1718 I'm pretty inclined to believe she'd be knocked unconscious with the first whack.
XByTheShoreX 4 months ago
@XByTheShoreX You would hope so anyway, I'd hate to think you could be conscious for all of that and feel it.
TheBookWorm1718 4 months ago
Comment removed
XByTheShoreX 4 months ago
@TheBookWorm1718 Abbie was killed before Andrew. She whacked her off, before Mr. Borden came home. She claims she told her father, Mrs. Borden was out visiting a sick friend, someone stopped by and gave Mrs. Borden a note. Which they never found (note) or the person who supposedly delivered it. Lizzie probably over heard the Borden's saying Lizzie and Emma have to go, cut them off. Emma left town, and Lizzie said, I'll show you who's cut off. lol Lizzie paid for Maggie to go back to Ireland.
XByTheShoreX 4 months ago
@TheBookWorm1718 Yea, if Mrs. Borden screamed, neighbors would have heard it. I always had a funny feeling about the maid, at least knowing what was going down. Bridget "Maggie" said in the transcripts (which are online) that Lizzie and her step-mother got along well. When everybody else said they didn't. "Maggie" was right outside talking to a female neighbor. As if "Maggie" was a look out. Washing windows, indeed. In that heat! Maggie said, Mrs. Borden told her to wash em'. Ya, I bet.
XByTheShoreX 4 months ago
This is stupid. During the trial it was proven that the ax had been the weapon used by fitting it into the Skull of Andrew Borden. What was not proven was who used it to kill with.
silvereagle2061 11 months ago
@silvereagle2061 The same kind of hatchet was in at least half the houses in Fall River. So what they really proved was that a hatchet of that size was the murder weapon -- not that that particular hatchet was. Not the same thing.
TheLadyMaul 9 months ago
Emma Borden killed them, with Lizzie as an accesory to murder. The motive was money. You see, the next day after the murder, Andrew Borden was scheduled to meet with a lawyer to change his will and name Abby Borden as the owner of his estate upon his death. It would have been changed, if that silly axe had not gotten in the way. Whoopsie.
SteveLLW 1 year ago
@wircolac it was solved but the murderer were let go. I think the jury felt sorry for Lizzie Borden because of the years of psychological abuse she endured at the hands of her stepmother and father let it happen. it was her only way to escape the bullying--still doesn't make it right but in a way she was punished for the crime because she was ostracise by family and neighbors. but she lived peacefully and often gave to charities.
dhom100 1 year ago
Discovery Channel documentary "Lizzie Borden Had an Axe" will air again on Monday, 12/27/2010 at 11 a.m.
tamidawn11 1 year ago
I THINK LIZZIE DID IT, AND FOR FINACIAL REASONS.
leedumett444 1 year ago
I have seen several photos of the crime scene and I'm sure most are just copies as there were probably only limited photographers on the scene at the time. I have never seen anything remotely to pooling or spattering of blood in any of these photos. Him on the couch...nothin. Her on the floor...nothin. What the hell?? I wonder if back then they cleaned the area prior to photographong but even then you hould still be able to see some form of darkening or spots???
8MCDonalds8 1 year ago
@8MCDonalds8 I've noticed that too. Even the sheets on the bed next to Abby's dead body are clean!!! Very strange indeed. I've seen other crime scene photos of the era, and they didn't spare you any details... so I doubt there was a "clean up" before the photos were taken. I'm glad you also noticed that there is no evidence of "cast-off". Very odd.
Laurisa718 1 year ago
@Laurisa718 No cast off, no nothing. No blood at all. I mean even in b/w you could still tell if there was any easily. I wonder what the hell that's all about. Veru weird. Someone out there must have some kind of explanation.
8MCDonalds8 1 year ago
i guess the jury dont like forensic evidence.
halkiphulkiben 1 year ago
on another video a letter was sent to the judge at the trial saying it was from the killer ? some beleive it was the illegitamite son of the dad and this son and lizzie had a role to play in the 2 deaths that day.also its interesting to note that the trial transcripts say that the family had dinner the night before the deaths and some felt sick afterwards! (vomiting etc) and that lizzie tried to obtain some fur coat cleaner from a store!!..hmm...
crazyknight2008 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@wircolac Eventually the case will be solved in the future. It's possible.
cathsingalto 1 year ago
Amazing they still have the items from a case well over 100 years ago!!
newfful 1 year ago
amazing stuff from 1892 is still around
theRAGINFmoviecritic 1 year ago
I have to add this: do you think it worthwhile to try and get the Discovery Channel to release this episode on DVD? I would love to watch it several times and be able to study it more closely. Perhaps if enough people write them, they may consider it. There are other shows on Lizzie available; why not this one, which to me is the most interesting and contains excellent analyses of this case.
But perhaps there are legal impediments, in which case we probably won't see a DVD anytime soon :(
Cissy2cute 2 years ago 2
The only way they could have assumed it was cow's blood is that some animal hairs might have been embedded on the axe head. Was this ever mentioned? To me, covering it up with ashes indicated manipulation of evidence.
@loner1878-Wow, you were lucky to have Mauriello as a professor! Did he have anything to say about the blood splatter? I know that blood has to go somewhere-on the person or the wall. I think this case deserves more research into that aspect.
Cissy2cute 2 years ago
@Cissy2cute It could concieveably be confused with chicken blood. In those days people often had their own chickens, and often killed their chickens that way=by axe.
gotch09 2 years ago
@gotch09-yes, that certainly is true also. I guess there is just no way now to prove what kind of blood it was. Just imagine if it turned out to be human!
Cissy2cute 2 years ago
Doesn't the entire make your blood run cold. I know it does mine!!!
gotch09 2 years ago
why hasn't anyone mentioned there being no blood on any of the walls or rooms. When hit with an axe it would cause massive arterial spraying to occur, unless ofcourse, they were already dead before the axe blows...?
jrankin61 2 years ago
There was blood on the wall near Abby's head.
Jeff98177 2 years ago
@Jeff98177 not near enough. Those walls would literally be covered had she taken several hatchet blows to the skull.
jrankin61 2 years ago
Well, there's been speculation that the first blow was the fatal one. In any case, it's unfortunate that the picture quality of the day didn't reveal much if any blood splatter.
Jeff98177 2 years ago
my question is, with "forensics" back in 1892, how'd they KNOW the blood on that hatchet head was cows blood??
ibkristykat 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Doe anyone know where can i watch the whole documentary?
Aqwnzqt 2 years ago
Tom Mauriello was my professor last year at UMD for CCJS320 (Intro to Criminalistics). He showed us part of this. Funny and great prof!
loner1878 2 years ago
Lizzie was not "normal" but how could she be, losing her real mother so early and having such a stern, skinflint father.
It does appear Lizzie tried to buy poison before the murders but was unable to. She was also a known kleptomaniac, something which continued long after the murders and indicates psychological problems.
Today, based on forensics and circumstantial evidence I believe Lizzie would have been convicted.
If anyone knows if there is a full verison of this show, please post.
Cissy2cute 2 years ago
There has been some whispering about Lizzie and her father. There's been whispers that Mr. Borden had at some point molested Lizzie. And that's why she murdered them. Then there was whispers that Lizzie and the maid Bridget were lesbian lovers and that Mrs. Borden caught them and that's why she murdered them. You have to admit that both murders were up close and personnel. And spoke to alot of rage. Both Bordens had to have known their killers. How else could they have come that close with a ax?
gotch09 2 years ago
@gotch09 - Lizzie being molested by her father-I don't give that much credence. I do believe she was "Daddy's girl". He did favor her over Emma.
Lizzie & Bridget--my husband subscribes to this theory, while I'm up in the air about it. It would not surprise me if LIzzie were a lesbian. Bridget-I'm not so sure.
Lizzie's later behavior and friendship with the actress does seem to indicate Lizzie had little interest in men.
These were certainly murders of passion, no doubt about it!
Cissy2cute 2 years ago
@Cissy2cute Well, I do question both theories.
We'll never know for sure, since everybodys dead and cold in their graves. But the theory that Old man Borden molesting Lizzie would explain such extreme, over the top, brutal murders. Lizzie doing it would also explain how somebody getting that close with a ax and nobody getting unnerved by it. This definetly a act of great hostility and over kill.
gotch09 2 years ago
@gotch09 But the stepmother got more overkill than the father did, Andrew had his skull slashed in 13 times, Abby was attacked 18 times, yes, obviously hostility and more overkill, but it seems more so aimed at Abby.
TheBookWorm1718 10 months ago
@TheBookWorm1718 Didn't take long to figure out that Lizzie had anger management problems with her step mother.And it doesn't take someone with Einstein's i.q. to add that 2+2 and come up with 4.
gotch09 10 months ago
WHO DID IT
luciabeckett4 2 years ago
omg do u rlly not know it was lizzy bordon
ymme12girl 2 years ago
that axe looks really small, to commit a murder
HallieVanilla4 2 years ago
I know she did it, she was a sneaky person.....
097babygirl 2 years ago
CAN YOU FOR SURE KNOW!
Iperogie 2 years ago
I still don't understand one point about Lizzie. I think she did it, but why wasn' t there any blood or gore in her hair. She could have easily washed any blood off her skin, but not her hair.
gotch09 2 years ago
does anyone have the whole documentary?
calico26 3 years ago 11
I have no doubt Lizzie did it. After all, old man Borden was not exactly a nice guy, and she probably reached the breaking point. The attitude of the town when hearing of his murder was "well, somebody finally got to him" meaning that he was a very unlikeable and often cruel character.
Great cold case forensics by these two. And we now know with almost 100% certainty that we do have the actual murder weapon. IMO, there is now enough circumstantial evidence pointing to Lizzie.
Cissy2cute 3 years ago 2
that does soound about right cuz in one of mondo lizzie's vid's it said there many locks on the door and it was unuasual for a victorian house to have somthing like that in that time
ymme12girl 2 years ago
What show was this posted from?
Strgzr11 3 years ago
Discovery
luciabeckett4 2 years ago