Nobody followed Jesus around with a steno pad taking dictation. The Gospels are paraphrasing at best. We only have copies of the original maunuscripts. None of the originals exist anymore. That we know of, anyway. Texts were copied and recopied and changed over time. They were added to and subtracted from, translated and retranslated. What we have today are rudimentary copies of long gone originals.
@harpo103 Even the originals weren't written by witnesses, it's very creepy to me how real people think these stories are. Faith is no more a virtue than ignorance. Most christians can't tell you what language the stories were initially written in. Go test this if you'd like.
@AMpufnstuf What Jesus said is paraphrased at best. There was an oral tradition for a generation or so, then people started writing stuff down that they thought that he may have said. We don't have his EXACT words! What we do have is the gist of what he may have said. Could you recall something that was said by someone in 1970?
Even someone who made such a strong impression on you as Jesus may have done? You would probably recall something of what he said, but, most likely, NOT verbatim.
@harpo103 Isn't this one more piece of wood to throw on the massive fire of reasons to believe there is no god and what we claim to know about him is a hoax? He sent one messenger, ever, who cured what a thousand people of hunger for one day and then died? And he couldn't even get a single page of text to spread on the earth without it being flawed and fraudulent before it ever reached the rest of us.
If that's omnipotence, then cancer is gods way of showing us he loves us.
I am in Bill Meher's camp. He says that we just don't know if there is a God or not. Anyone who tells you that they are CERTAIN that there is one, is certainly full of crap. Nobody knows for sure. Isn't life a struggle between Good and Evil? Existence VS Non-Existence? Maybe, the Good creates life, but, Evil tries to smother it and make it miserable? I just don't think that you can quote the Bible chapter and verse and be taken seriously by anyone about it.
@harpo103 Do you mean Islam is a copy of Christianity? How much have you studied Islam to say that? Do you think it is wise to judge the religion by the media, like Dr. Bart E. does?
@islomhaq Then again you are talking about the things you do not know. Quran could never be written by a man. Have you just read it for curiosity and pondered as you suggest us using our brains? Why don't you do the same? Read this "man made" book and use your brain, don't freak out, don't go crazy, just make sure it is what you think it is.
I am sure you would believe in God, if you were on a crashing plane, so be honest, do what you tell other to do: read Quran and think.
The religious loony-toons should calm down and use their brains once in a while. Bart is only telling us what scholars have known for decades, generations or centuries. He is NOT giving too many of his opinions, he is stating FACTS. You guys have a real problem with facts!
If someone doesn't toe your line, you freak out and get even crazier.
Can I envision a religion springing up from the Star Wars series? Yes, I can—they call themselves Taoists, they frequent Taoist discussion boards, but they have a view of Tao that seems based on George Lucas’ Force, not Lao Tzu’s Tao.
The Just shall live by Faith" The time to get ready is now confess your filthy sins and get right with God through Jesus, why do you think he came to earth...read the Christian bible. And again Who in the World cares what Bart thinks or says he is NOTHING but God and all of his love will still forgive him and that is more than I can say for this world. Everybody is entitled to their opinion even if it is WRONG, get right with JESUS BART, time is runnin g out.
who cares what bart thinks really, what does he know, I see a back slidden Christian angry at God and the world poor sad little man who can't figure that all you need is Faith and leave the big stuff to the Creator, which I believe he saaid "My ways are higher than your ways" People do you watch the news and can't you see the trouble we as a nation are in, it will be to late when you have to line up for food and receive the verichip in order to live. I am not worried about for Jesus said "The ju
That is like saying you got a report card that was all F's. You then re wrote it, adding some A's... No F's. I guess the second report card is correct. And you really are not ignorant. Fantastic.
I think Bart Ehrman he was so felicitous in this lecture and he is so academic about his historical understanding of biblical scripture which led him to be atheist but he didn't deal with the holy Quran in the same level when they asked him about the Quran it is so strange, and I didn't expect that from a scholar because he know nothing about that book so how he make such a statment when he had been asked about it
@SuperSalman1977 well how do u deal with the ancient greek gods?the egyptian book of the dead, the bhagavad gita or the veda? religious indoctrination depends only on the time and the place a human is born.u speak about the quran cause it just happened ur ancestors are from the middle east.why should u give special attention to the above,or why ehrman to the quran
@Samura1gamer hello again nobody ask Dr Ehrman to study Islamic theology but if somebody ask u about any subject and you don’t have information and from the academic honesty you have to said I don't know and not like the answer that he said. Last I gave special attention because Islam ,Christianity , and Jewish are same theology in sense all claim Ibrahimic tradition
@SuperSalman1977 hello to you. since ehrman has studied extensively the old testament along with the new i'd say his answer shows pretty much what we knew already.that any religion based on OT cannot be and is not that much different from its other spawns.Even if he hasn't read not one verse from the quaran,since the OT is a huge part of every abrahamic religion will always lead to a similar answer by an non religious reader
@Samura1gamer hello again if you mean that Dr, Eheman depend on the OT judge the authenticity of the Quran that would be not just and i can tell you that the Quran is pretty different but to know the difference any one have to read and theQuran agree with what Dr Ehrman said about the bible because the Quran tell us to believe in the gospel of Jesus not the gospel of John ,Luke, Mathew ,and Mark and to believe that Jesus is just a prophet like Mohammed ( peace be upon them both)
@SuperSalman1977 First, Ehrman is an agnostic, not an atheist. Secondly, I don't blame Ehrman one bit regarding his answer about the Koran. When muslims are willing to murder anyone who won't kowtow to their view of Islam and the Koran, why should a scholar like Bart Ehrman willingly enter a field of research that could place his life at risk?
@crucisnh first of all ,any one kill any person for any reason he is a criminal what ever his race religion or any reason so I totally agree with you about the radicals Muslims and they are small minority but with my respect you exaggerate when said "Muslims" which give impression that all the Muslim world. The majority of Muslims they are very peaceful people and by the way many westerns they criticize Islamic theology and they have a lot of books and studies about this religion.
@SuperSalman1977 I agree that they're a small minority. But in a religion with a billion+ adherents, "small minority" is a relative thing. Also, I have to say that I find it distressing when I see so many "honor killings" of young women in the US/Canada by muslims that would seem to be otherwise very peaceful, decent people. These people come to the US/Canada presumably for a better life, and then engage in this barbaric behavior when their daughters want to assimilate.
@crucisnh yes I totaly agree but dont make your judgment about a certin low or religon by what the people do but you spouse to do your judgmet on the people if they applied this low or religon in their live so I think that doesn't reflect the islamic tridition but you Know may be its a trible tridition which may be the people in the west think that these are islamic teaching
@SuperSalman1977 Yes, I know that there a good people that are also muslims. At least I hope so. ;) But it does concern me that the supposed good, peaceful muslims don't stand up more aggressively against the dangerously violent ones. They seem to do so so rarely, than it seems that they only do it when pressured to do so and not because it's the right thing to do.
@crucisnh well I think what the Muslim paid to fight those criminal is far more than the western society and I’m not talking about money but about the people how died to fight them so we the Muslims the baggiest victim but the media deceive the people and by the way there is many example in the other religion and group even the agnostic but they just want to attack this religion and don't forget what the agnostic like Stalin for example how he kill 20 million people and many other
I'm guessing he didn't loose his faith due to "little differences" in scripture but rather in the whole maufactured tall stories by bronze age tribal sheep hearders thing.
Mind you who wouldnt if they really thought about it from a blank canvass start point.
Trouble is very few have this as thier start point.
I attended your debate with craig evans in wolfville, ns. I can't believe you lost your Faith because of a little difference in scripture. after the debate you seemed very unhappy and I stated to you that you need to have a little Faith in Jesus, forget about what you think is wrong and focus on everything that is right.
@pauldunnbellaliant You clearly haven't heard the full reason as to why Bart Ehrman became an agnostic. There are a couple of youtube clips where he talks about why. The basic reason is that he couldn't rationalize the problem of suffering in the world with a supposedly loving god. The "little difference" in scripture was only the wedge that caused him to have a more open mind about his faith.
@crucisnh hi first of all I want to thank you for your correction. and I agree with any one who ask why the suffering with presence of God is happen, but in my opinion it is not an evidence to say God does not exist in my opinion its a supposition and he support this supposition by the evidence of the corruption in his holy bible which he study in depth as I think
@SuperSalman1977 Ah, but the point is that it was his opinion that mattered when it came to making the decision as to whether god did or did not exist. And Dr Ehrman couldn't accept the existence of all the suffering in the world and still believe. Others obviously can. Anyways, I was only pointing out why he came to his decision to become an agnostic, since someone asked.
@crucisnh thank you for you clarification and if you mean me that I can accept the suffering in the world and God existence actually yes because there is 1000 evidence which we know in the Quran prove the existence of God with out doubt so I have to find reason why may God let suffering happen not to said their is no god without evidence
The problem is that liturgical Christianity is not growing. It's fading. It's fading into general spirituality, agnosticism, and atheism. Strident literal Christianity is growing, both in the Global South and in the United States. Traditions like Calvinists, Southern Baptists, Indigenous African churches, etc., are growing while Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc., are shrinking.
@TacticusPrime Sorry I am confused. You said Calvinists are growing and then you said Presbyterians are shrinking? I think you have made a category error, the majority of Presbyterians have always been Calvinists. Presbyterianism only refers to the type of government of the church which we find in the New Testament, in how to run the church. Our church has always been Calvinist as Presbyterianism is the direct descendent from John Knox who really brought Calvinism to Scotland.
@Surfxeo Hardcore Calvinists, generally not Presbyterian, are growing. Mainline Presbyterians, who can be Calvinists but don't take it very seriously, are shrinking. The point is that mainline churches are fading away, while extremists are gaining ground. That's the future of Christianity.
@TacticusPrime Prebyterianians are all generally Calvinists. You get Presbyterianisms from Calvinism, to have a prebyterians reject calvinism that perbyterian will always fade away from calvinism. They are closely linked together.
Presbyterian derive the name from the Greek word presbýteros (πρεσβύτερος) "elder" [Acts 14:23, 20:17, Titus 1:5]
@Surfxeo Yes, organizationally and by institutional descent Presbyterians are Calvinists. But mainstream Presbyterians do not push the kind of strict Calvinism of guys like Al Mohler and Mark Driscoll, etc. They even voted to allow faithfully partnered homosexuals into their church leadership.
@TacticusPrime But the whole point of Presbyterianism is that no person has leadership. The Minister/Pastor is under the government of the elders. This was all done not under the Presbyterian government. This isn't was Presbyterianism is and it should be all done under the authority of the word of God. No sodomite can enter the church Presbytery, the same goes for a polygamist, an adulterer, fornicator. The Bible makes it very clear what is considered sin.
@Surfxeo Tell that to the largest group of Presbyterians in America, the PCUSA. Look, you're just arguing semantics. The truth is that most Presbyterians are mainline and theologically liberal. They don't take the full implications of Calvinism seriously. There are people of many denominations who are actually hardcore Calvinists, like Mohler/Driscoll/etc. My argument was that mainline churches, like PCUSA, are declining while the more dangerous literalists grow.
@Surfxeo 4) "The only begotten Son John 1:18 & 3;16 * the innovated concept of Jesus being the "only begotten son" of the Father was developed in the forth century. It was injected by Jerome into the Latin Bible to refute the claims made by Bishop Arius (d.336) and his associates that Father alone was really God and Jesus was made (created) and not "begotten"."
(Dr. Raymond Brown, the "Anchor Bible" Vol. 29 and Dr. Paul B. Duff, Chair, Dept. of Religion at the geroge Washington Univ.)
@Surfxeo All the Islamic manusicripts which existed today are same in text (the earliest are written without vowels) but some differences in vowels which doesn't effect on the actual meaning. After prophet saw died, there were many people became Muslims tired to recite Qur'an in their dialect which start to cause spelling mistakes. For this reason Uthman (ra) ordered to unite onto a single harf (modes). And by this event we got one united Qur'an all over the word which all Muslims use.
@TrinityDesist We know what was in the NT at the time of Muhammad and he never said they were corrupted. We already know what the earliest Christian manuscripts said and we keep finding earlier and earlier manuscripts confirm that the Bible has never been corrupted. Your own Quran says the Bible is not corrupt.
This is what modern Muslims are facing, they can see Muhammad never once accurately represented what was in the Old or New Testament.
The New Testament is the most accurately transmitted document from antiquity; it is the most widely transmitted document from antiquity. It is the earliest attested document from antiquity, by a factor of ten!
We now know what was in the original New Testaments by 99.6 % accurate, with only a handfull of additional sentenses which we are unsure of, but none inpact the docrines of the Christian faith.
The Christian faith stands on a firm foundation which is why it has flourished for 2000 years.
We have more than 124 Greek manuscript witnesses within the first 300 years after the writings of the NT, far more than any other work of antiquity.
In summary 400,000 variants: 99% inconsequential. Most thoroughly documented work of antiquity. Spread over the world quickly, no controlling authority. Any later editing would stand out clearly in comparison with ancient manuscripts.
@sstoicc The Bible is the only book that can be tested to see that it has been unaltered through the centuries.
You should check the facts before you believe what a radical sceptic like Bart Ehrman tells you. After all it makes him a lot of money out of making radical claims that are unfounded.
@Surfxeo But it has obviously been altered and that is what it's history tells us. I wouldn't disagree with the rest of what you said but if you believe the Bible hasn't been altered, then you need a history lesson.
@TrinityDesist Jesus wasn't illiterate, he could read as we read in Luke 4:14-21. What Scripture actually says is that Jesus was never taught to read, he could already read. As Scripture said "that prophet would be taught of God", Jesus came from God and returned to God to sit again on the right hand of God where he existed from all eternity and now sits.
The only peace is found in Christ who is Lord of the Sabbath.
Qur'an says the unbelievers who will discover the Qur'an is absolutely true and literally word of God.
'We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (the Qur'ân) is the truth." Qur'an 41: 53
There is no such a book on the universe who challenges to all humankind to find any discrepancies in it. Qur'an 4:82
@TrinityDesist Well if you say the Quran is true then you have to say the Christian Scriptures are not corrupted because otherwise you are contradicting what your own Quran says. Surah 5:46-48
I God that He has kept His word pure in the Old & New Testament from the corruption of man.
After all, Caliph Uthman burned the original Quran that Muhammad wrote, so you do not have a wide distribution as we have for the Christian Scriptures so we know what were in the original NT.
@Surfxeo Hmm, I want you to show me where are in Surah 5:46-48 say the Christians manusicripts didn't get corrupted. Please read the verses and then show me where i did contradict the verses. I can show you verses and Hadiths which clearly say that Jews and Christians corrupted their own manusicripts and Bart Ehrman confirms it.
@TrinityDesist I'm not talking about the hadith, I am quoting direct from the Quran
"confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.
And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient."
@Surfxeo The verse talks about the GOSPEL which revealed to Isa (Jesus) pbuh in his time. Don't mixed it up with GOSPELS which is written by unknown people. So you need to show me a manuscript dated back to Jesus' time that Qur'an talks about. I am waiting...
Sorry i meant to Jesus disciples. But still Jesus was illiterate person which means there is no a scripture actually written by Jesus himself but he borne by knowing the scriptures which is Qur'an says and John 7:15 confirms it.
@TrinityDesist Again you have the wrong name. It is not Isa, it is Jesus. Isa is not the correct translation from the original Hebrew, Isa is the name for Esau and he was hated by God in Scripture. Jesus in Hebrew is Yahshuah.
We have the Gospels written from the time of the Apostles who knew Jesus intimately.
Noone ever said that Jesus sat down and wrote any gospel. It taught it to His disciples who made disciples of the whole world. John plainly shows the deity of Christ.
@Surfxeo5:48 "And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, CONFIRMING that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a CRITERION over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. ..."
As you can see Qur'an makes quality control on the previous sicriptures and confirms which is true. So, i'm still waiting an answer for my question.
@TrinityDesist Where do I start. Are you made a huge blunder.
We have in this text Muhammad telling Christians and Jews to check their own books, The Old & New Testament in the time of Mohammad. Notice Mohammad tell us to check the books Christians and Jews had in the 7th century and see if what Muhammad did was true. And further more for us not to go beyond what we have in our books.
This is the worst kind of prophecy a false prophet could make. Hardly a prophet of God.
@Surfxeo Where does qur'an say the sicriptures (teaching of the previous prophets before Muhammad (saw)) didn't get curropted?
I used John 7:15 an example. And you re right i shouldn't use this verse from this gosple which more curropted than others.
You qutoe me a poem from latest gospel which written anonomous people, so i would like ask you couple questions. Hope you can answer this time. Why is Jesus becomes more devine in gospel according to John than any other Gospels?
@TrinityDesist Since you say the Gospel of John is corrupted. Show us Greek manuscripts from 1st to 4th centuries to show us where the gospal has been corrupted?
There are over 5700 + manuscripts. Show us where? We are all dying to know.
I never quoted you a poem.
As for the latest gospel. That is false, it is only in that order just to be alphabetical (Descending). John is actually the 2nd Gospel in order in the earliest manuscript and has the most surviving multiple copies.
@Surfxeo I don't have to show you, and you don't need to die. Here is the video, the bestseller bible scholar Bart Ehrman which repeatedly says there are over 200.000 manusicripts, till 16th centuries no two are identical. If you have two manusicripts which exactly match you should to give a copy to Bart Ehrman. Well i trust Bart Ehrman over you because he is the world leading bible scholar.
@TrinityDesist Bart Ehrman is in the radical fringe of New Testament scholarship and his deceptions are well known. There are many NT scholars who take him to task over it. Ehrman is an atheist and does not believe in God, let alone Scripture. What Bart doesn't tell you is those varients in the text do not impact the meaning of the text at all. There are merely spelling mistakes and nonsense words that are easily corrected.
@Surfxeo Please let the verse speaks for itself. John 1:14 clearly says ‘The word became flesh.’ It doesn’t need an explanation. The word (God) became flesh.
@TrinityDesist Yes the Word, God, Jesus became flesh. Exactly!!! The second person of the Godhead. Have you not read the text??? Read the whole Chapter!!!
The WORD, The LIGHT, John gave witness to this great light.
HE was in the world and the world knew HIM not.
THE WORD BECAME FLESH AND DWELT AMOUNT US, (and WE beheld HIS glory, the glory as of the ONLY BEGOTTEN of the FATHER,) Full of grace and truth.
@Surfxeo@Surfxeo You said “Mohammad clearly thought that what the evil spirit told him was true.” Why did you say that? I want to know. Tell me, what are the criteria for test evil spirit in your anonymous scriptures?
Jesus name in "Eesho" or more specifically "Eesa" since the Northern Palestinian Jews pronounced the letter "shin" as "seen"."Eesho M'sheekha" REFERENCE from Aramaic bible: v-a . com/bible/aramaic-jesus . html
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
@Surfxeo Bart Ehrman is not an atheist but an agnostic. You should to know the differences. You said: “There are merely spelling mistakes and nonsense words thatare easily corrected.” I think you don’t know anything what the textual critics says about on anonymous gospels. Compare Textus Receptus with Critical/Electic Text. Or compare NIV with KJV. Lol!
@TrinityDesist Bart is an atheist. There is no way on this earth that he will accept any evidence for God until he meets Him at death.
Why would I compair translations from the Greek? When the KJV was firs translated it only had 6 texts to translate from. Now we have thousands of manuscripts that confirm what we have in all these texts. LOL
We go to the earliest texts not ones written in the 17th + century. Where did you go to school? LOL
@TrinityDesist I can go on about the Quran as well if you wish to be fair. If you look at all the different translations of the Quran and compare them to the oldest you would find much bigger difference than the New Testament. The NT has better manuscript evidence that the Quran does.
@Surfxeo Are you agree that all the gospels written in Koine Greek? Well you have to prove me and Bart Ehrman that Jesus' pbuh disciples were know how to speak and write Koine Greek language.
I AM in Hebrew "EHEYEH ASHER EHEYEH" which is YHWH or Yahweh for the personal name of God in OT. Which means "the one who lives" not solid I AM in English. You can check it up at jewishencyclopedia . com. If you are saying I AM in Greek means God, a blind man called I AM in NT. Is he god too?
@TrinityDesist I don't have to prove anything to the atheist Bart Ehrman anything. I just read what the experts in the field of Textual Critism and NT scholarship tell us. Not only that but I am learning Koine Greek myself so I can read the NT in Greek.
Terrible argument you made. You may as well through out your english Quran as well! lol
The english words "I AM" are translations from the Greek ego eimi, which is what we have in the New Testament and it is also in the Greek OT
@TrinityDesist But not only does the name for God "I AM" mean "the one who lives" in Hebrew but there are 7 meaning in total you can get from the words I AM in Hebrew. The point is you can only have one meaning in english for the same word in Hebrew. We already know this. This is why Christianity is such a strong faith as it does not need to take away from what is written in the OT as Islam tries to do.
If you had actually read John when Jesus uses I AM the Jews react to the name.
@TrinityDesist All of the Mediterranean world spoke Koine Green. It was the common trade tongue the same way english is today. Do not forget that at the time of Jesus the world was still hellenised after Alexander the Greats conquests. Everyone spoke Koine Greek, this is not in dispute. We have the manuscripts to prove it!
But the disciples did not have to speak koine Greek to have it translated into other languages. The NT was translated into Latin, Coptic, Sahidic etc
@Surfxeo If Jesus was claiming divinity here, He should have at least remained consistent in the usage of words. In Exodus 3:14 the word for “I am” is “haw-yaw’ third person singular Where as the word in John 8:58 is “Ego Eimi” first person singular. Even on the meaning of YHWH, Jesus can’t be the same person. YHWH, which means according to Jewish Encyclopedia: “He who self-exists, self-sufficient”. Jesus cannot self-exist, he needs a father.
@TrinityDesist What do you mean by "Jesus cannot self exist, he needs a father", in your mind what are referring to when you mean father? You think the use of father in Scripture means something to do with sexual procreation?
As for Ego Eimi, in the that Jesus uses, this is the first person form for I AM and in Exodus 3:14, it is Ehyeh asher ehyeh. "ehyeh" is the first person singular. The equivalent name in Greek. Which the Jewis Septuigant translates as Ego Eimi also.
@Surfxeo If you meant Jesus exist before Abraham (in what form?), well, angels exist before Abraham (pbuh) too. Also in many verses in Gospel according to John, Jesus makes himself less than God.
You are making assumptions on Koine Greek but the facts is Jesus disciples were illiterate and only spoke Aramaic according to Best seller Bible scholar Bart Ehrman (PhD).
@TrinityDesist The Disciples may have spoken aramaic but there is no evidence to support this claim. Why do Muslims quote a person who does not believe in God and who ofter says that you should not trust texts that have a single line of translation that the Quran has. If you actually apply his stories to the Quran it crumbled to pieces.
Why not quote the vast majority of NT scholars who still work in this field of research who are better qualified to answer & are not anti-christ
The entire New Testament was written of a period between 20 – 40 years from the events which they describe by around 8 different writers.
The New Testament is the best attested text of any from antiquity.
Aside from the 5700+ Greek texts, we have early translations into Latin, Coptic, Sahidic, etc… that are important witnesses to the early text of the NT. Combining these with the Greek texts yields over 20,000 hand-written witnesses.
We have more than 124 Greek manuscript witnesses within the first 300 years after the writings of the NT, far more than any other work of antiquity.
In summary 400,000 variants: 99% inconsequential. Most thoroughly documented work of antiquity. Spread over the world quickly, no controlling authority. Any later editing would stand out clearly in comparison with ancient manuscripts.
@Surfxeo John 8:58 which reads in Aramaic translation ""YESHUA SAID TO THEM, TRUTHFULLY, TRUTHFULLY, I SAY TO YOU THAT I COME BEFORE ABRAHAM DOES." Where is the word "I am that I am" (He who self exist-Third person singular)? If you are saying Jesus is God because He said He exist before Abraham, well people many people exist before Abraham.
@TrinityDesist That translation you mad makes no sense lol. John 8:58 is not translating I AM THAT I AM but is only translating I AM, (Ego Eimi).
The point you have completely missed is Jesus existed before Abraham and knew Abraham which means Jesus existed before he took on human flesh. Not only that but John 1 clearly demonstrates that Jesus created the world and mankind. You cannot dissect Gods word like you try and only take what you like, that is not being honest to the truth
@Surfxeo I gave you to references that Hebrew word Eheyeh Asher Eheyeh doesn't not have same meaning and spelling and tense with Greek word "ego emi". You are mixing up two words on English translation.
You made false assumptions on name of Jesus and lied on Qur'an by saying Qur'an used word Esau which rejected name by the Jews. But Qur'an uses Eesa (Eesho) which is %100 matches with Aramaic and i gave you to reference to prove it.
@TrinityDesist There are 2 "I AM" statements in Exodus 3:14. You're ignoring one for convenience. Secondly both Tatian and St Ephrem disagree with your interpretation. Thirdly, it's absurd to suggest that Jesus was claiming to be just another man who was around almost 2000 years earlier. Lastly, Arabic Christians pronounce Jesus' name as "Yasu" not "Isa" so there exists a valid discrepancy.
The New Testament is the most accurately transmitted document from antiquity; it is the most widely transmitted document from antiquity. It is the earliest attested document from antiquity, by a factor of ten!
Even your god Bart Ehrman cannot find any errors in what I just said.
@Surfxeo You need come up with evidences, not assumptions. Show us the manuscripts that come from times of Jesus which says all the people from Jesus area spoke Koine Greek or you just made up.
Questions are still remains, why did Jesus use the word “I am” more than 100 times only in Gospel according to John but not in others? Why did in gospel according to john, Jesus became more divine than other Gospels?
These are not assuptions on my part but is widely accepted in all historical circles in antiquity. It is not only the new testament that proves this but multiple sources tell us. They spoke Greek before 100 BC, during Christs life and after his death.
Luke 23:38 Greek, Latin and Hebrew THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS
You need to show evidence that Greek was not spoken if you wish to affirm your assumption. Vast majority of coins in this period are Hebrew.
@Surfxeo So you re agree that Jesus became flesh NOT incarnate in flesh?
So Book of Jeremiah were not inspired why do you keeping his book in your holy scriptures? You are so delude.
Bart Ehrman is not my god but he is genuine bible scholar who was believing the anonymous gospels %100 word of god.. After his research he became an AGNOSTIC not an atheist. So holy ghost didn't help to keep his faith like many other bible scholars.
@TrinityDesist Who said Jeremiah was not inspired?????????????????
You are lying when you say that B. Ehrman became an agnostic (as you put it). He has never said that nor has he ever affirmed that responce. Ehrman has always said he lost his faith because of the problem of evil.
Bart wouldn't have lost his faith if it was true saving faith, he never had faith to begin with.
@Surfxeo You can’t say the writers of this verse are specifically referring WHO the word was which you assumed it is Jesus (pbuh) but rather it refers WHAT the word was. Qur’an says Allah (The God Almighty) said the word “BE!” and He was. God is mercy but the Mercy is not God. Commit no excesses by saying something which isn't there.
@Surfxeo I asked you to show me anywhere in anonymous scriptures that Jesus ever called The God Almighty in Koine Greek. Yet the SATAN called The God Almighty which always referred to the Father.
I didn’t say the Jews, I said the Jewish Rabbis. Go ask them that does the word “EHEYEH (I WILL BE)” ever mean “ANIY (I AM)” in Hebrew and had God ever called by this name “Eheyeh (I Will Be)” in OT?
@TrinityDesist Satan is NOWHERE called The Almighty God in Scripture.
I have already asked a Jewish Doctor with a PH.d in Hebrew and he said the I AM THAT I AM is a very acceptable translation.
You keep mentioning "I WILL BE", What does God say from the Old Testament what He will do? Whal will God perform which he has revealed to his Prophets the words which will never fail? The prophecies ONLY found in the Old Testament.
Jesus is the Alpha & Omega, the First and the Last.
@Surfxeo IT IS NOT CALLED THE SEPTUAGENT but THE SEPTUAGINT. And Trinitarians (like you) do NOT accept 7 BOOKS of it. Lol!
No we don’t call God as Abb (father) rather we call God Rabb (The creator). Abb simply means in Aramaic and Arabic Father but when this word (father) refers to God the meaning always changes and never applies literally. Also, there is no ONE SON but SONS BY TONS in OT.
@TrinityDesist Christians accept all the Scriptures in the "Septuagint". LOL
You made a major blunder earlier why quoting the wrong words from Exodus 3:14 just to remind you, much more than a simple spelling mistake.
"SONS BY TONS" You are quoting Bart again. But there is context to when those words are used. Even Christians are referred to as adopted sons of God. But there is ALWAYS a distinction between the one and ONLY Son of God and those that are in Christ.
@Surfxeo I don't have to show you, you made an assumption that you can prove by the scriptures that Jesus and His disciples spoke Koine Greek. I asked you to give me your reference. Show me one scripture comes from Time of Jesus which clearly says Jesus and His people all were know Koine Greek.I am waiting....
I take Bart Ehrman over you because he is a genuine scholar and textual critic of the Bibles. Which he says they spoke Aramaic and they didn't speak Greek. (Misquoting Jesus, and many...)
B, Ehrman is a radical sceptic at the minority fringe of NT scholarship who has not done any Textual Critism in over 10 years. He doesn't work in this line of work. To be honest you would have to look at what the main NT scholars says about the NT texts
If you trust Bart Ehrman then you would have to agree with him that the NT manuscripts we have are exactly what we have in our english translations today. I have listened to his debates and know his view on this.
@Surfxeo "It should be regarded as a living text, something constantly changing as generation and generation tries to understand the mind of God," says David Parker, a Christian working on digitising the Codex. (news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7651105.stm)
@TrinityDesist I have not made an assuption as all the earliest NT texts are in Koine Greek, Israel before the time of Christ spoke Greek. The Jewish OT is in koine Greek (septuigent), and Greek was spoken long after the time of Jesus.
What you have is an assuption based on a vaccum which noone can provide any evidence for. I'm sure Aramaic could have been spoken but there is no evidence that it was the main language. From the time of Jesus most of the coins found are in Hebrew.
@TrinityDesist Yes it clearly says that God became flesh. Took on the form of a servent. God became man with 2 distinct natures in one person forever. It is the only way that man can be perfect and sinless by having the divine nature of God. That would be considered incarnation. We have already shown that Jesus preexisted in John 8 so you know that he must take on the form of a servant.
@Surfxeo 3. You’re still mixing up two words which are completely different than each other on the meaning, verb, spelling and language. The literal and proper translation of the verse is: I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE. Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: I WILL BE has sent me to you." Since the author of the Gospel of John utilized the Greek Septuagint translation of the Bible in his writings, it cannot be assumed that John's Jesus is referring to the words in Exodus 3:14.
@TrinityDesist It can be "I AM THAT I AM", or "I AM WHO I AM", or "I will be what I will be" or "I will be who I will be", or "I shall prove to be whatsoever I shall prove to be" or even "I will be because I will be". However Jesus is not referring to "I AM THAT I AM", Jesus is quoting the full title in Exodos 3:14 but to "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 as I have said was the name that God Elohim, Yahweh which is Ego Eimi in Greek.
@Surfxeo Although Jesus actually spoke in Hebrew or Aramaic, not Greek, John recorded Jesus' alleged words in Greek. Ego eimi ("I am"), used by John's Jesus, is not the same as ho on ("The Being, The One Who Is"), which is used in the Septuagint's rendering of Exodus 3:14: "And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and He said, Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: THE BEING has sent me to you."
@TrinityDesist I never suggested ego eimi is the same as ho on and is not quoted in John 8:58. However Jesus does say "Ho On" in the Revelation of Jesus Christ by St John (Revelation 1:4, 8; 4:8; 11:17; 16:5).
The Septuagint version (the Greek translation of the Old Testament), the translation of Ex.3:14 is ego eimi ho on ("I am the One who exists").
However the reaction of the Jews in the next very tells us that they understood I AM to belong to God.
@Surfxeo Even though ho on appears in the Gospel of John, it is never used as a title or name or exclusively as a reference to Jesus.
4. Allah means in Arabic, “He is the God, one and only, He begets not nor He begotten, and nothing like unto him.” The meaning of Allah is not same with Greek word theos which simply means a god (ton theos or o theos means: the God). I doubt about you know Koine Greek which you said you do.
@TrinityDesist Like all words it depends on the context and in the context of before Abraham came into being Jesus existed as "Ego Eimi" I exist.
4.) Allah does not mean “He is the God, one and only, He begets not nor He begotten, and nothing like unto him.” You are just quoting a passage. The etymology of the name of Allah "the [sole] deity, God" (ho theos monos). It is more descriptive than a personal name.
@TrinityDesist I know enough Koine Greek to know that "ho theos" is The God as singular, masculine, subject (nominative) and that "ton theon" as singular, masculine, object (assusative).
You can doubt away as much as you like but I know enough and my knowledge is growing, and I can employ the help of an expert in the field if I become stuck with certain words. I have books on Koine Greek right beside me and copies of the Greek NT from before 300 A.D.
@Surfxeo 5. You claimed that Qur’an doesn’t say previous scriptures got corrupted. But I proved you wrong. Jeremiah 8:8-9 in contexts clearly say that scriptures got corrupted. Please let the verses speak for it.
6. Bart Ehrman is a genuine scholar and textual critics of the bibles. His last work published lately called “FORGERY” which makes textual criticism on the anonymous scriptures.
@TrinityDesist This is God addressing the teachers of the law who were supposed to teach the people Gods law from the Scriptures. God is saying they thought they were wiser than God and not told the people what God has spoken.
They were thinking that in vain God has pronounced his words, it was as if He never said it, they hid the truth of God from the people
"Lo, certainly in VAIN made he it; the pen of the scribes is in VAIN. "The only vain people are those that reject Gods word
@TrinityDesist Gods words will not return to him void. All things that God has said he will accomplish will ALL come to pass. You should take a lesson and stop rejecting His word
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
@TrinityDesist 6. I have never heard of those anonymous Scriptures. All NT textual critics know who wrote, Matthew, John, Mark, Luke as we have historical early manuscripts that tell us directly from their students who wrote what.
@Surfxeo 7. I’m still waiting the scriptures come from time of Jesus which you said you have it, proves that they were know Koine Greek. Prove Bart Ehrman wrong.
8. NIV ad KJV are not translation but versions. Translation and version do not have same meaning.
@TrinityDesist We have the entire Old Testament in Koine Greek in Israel from before the time of Christs birth, whicht the NT accurately quotes from.
"Prove Bart Ehrman wrong" He has to prove his is right first before I can even begin to prove me wrong. What you end up doing is arguing in circles. He first has to prove his assumptions right with evidence before we get to that stage. Show us evidence to prove me wrong. Just one, PLEASE!!!
@Surfxeo The verse which written by anonymous writer says "the word became flesh (The word was made flesh)". You are now speculating. Commit no excesses by saying something which isn't there.
You said “God became a man forever” which means: “You see that man; he used to be a god.”
What do you mean man can be perfect? Is that the same thing when I say my car is perfect? And I would like to know Jesus preexisted in what form. Spirit or flesh?
AND THE "WORD WAS MADE FLESH", AND DWELT AMOUNG US, (AND WE BEHELD HIS GLORY, THE GLORY AS OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER,) FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH.
Notice the english word for Logos "WORD" who in John 1:1-3 is God has not become FLESH. GOD has become FLESH. This is simple english
En arkhe ayn ho logos, kai ho logos ayn pros ton theon, kai theos ayn ho logos. hootos ayn en arkhe pros ton theon.
Looke especially at the sentence "kai theos ayn ho logos" A literal translation would be "And God (Theos) was the Word (Logos)" or the proper way to translate it into english "And the word was God".
It is clear to any reasonable person that the only Word mentioned in John 1 is always referring to Jesus Christ
@Surfxeo Quote: “The most recent thorough studies of Gentiles in Galilee have been undertaken by the American scholar Mark Chancey. Chancey has studied every archaeological find from Galilee from around the time of the first century, has read every single piece of writing from the period of any relevance, and draws a decisive conclusion: the Gentiles in Galilee were almost exclusively located in the two major cities, Sepphoris and Tiberias. ...
@Surfxeo ... All the rest of Galilee was predominantly Jewish. And since most of Galilee was rural, not urban, the vast majority of Jews had no encounters with Gentiles. Moreover, Greek was not widely, let alone normally, spoken. The vast majority of Jews spoke Aramaic and had no facility in Greek. Forde by Bart Ehrman p.86 (Reference: Mark Chancey, The Myth of a Gentile Galilee (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2002); see also his more recent study, ...
@Surfxeo ... Greco-Roman Culture and the Galilee of Jesus (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2005).
Issue is not he says Jesus died in his book called the early CHRISTIANS writing but all the historians agree that there is NO evidence to prove resurrection of Jesus. Don’t forget it is not about Jesus died on the cross but he resurrected from the death. If he died on the cross that’s mean he was the FALSE MESSIAH according to Jewish Law.
@TrinityDesist You have just agreed with me that Jesus would have understood and spoken Greek/Latin. He came from a region which has many Roman ruines, a city with the name of the Roman Emperor Tiberius Caesar, in a region controlled by the Roman authorities. Well done!
By the way, Where in the Jewish law does it say that the False Messiah would die?
I can destroy your argument, turn to Daniel 9:24-27, The Messiah will be sacrified, Jerusalem & Temple destroyed, no more sacrifice
@Surfxeo 2) ... There are some differences on short vowels but we know the short vowels didn’t exist in the original manuscripts. AS A RESULT, we have ONE COPY of Qur’an all over world which we use today.
@Surfxeo ... But Qur’an debunks Jewish claims and confirms that Jesus was the ONLY true Messiah and God answered his prayers and saved Him from the death and took Him up to Himself. (Qur’an 4:157-158. Read also Hebrews 5:7)
The God Almighty CURSE be upon who ever lies. Amin.
@Surfxeo 1) Your point about the copy of the scriptures is very reasonable. I agree with part of it. But the real issue is not about preservation of scriptures but variation of the scriptures. We can discuss on this, but in summary, all the scholars of Qur’an are agree on that all the existing of the Quranic manuscripts (starting with first century of hijra) are 100% preserved its original language and %100 match with current copy of Qur’an we use today.
@TrinityDesist There are variations in the Quranis manucripts also and not perfectly preserved as you put it. The earliest known Quran in existance have varients with no vowel markings giving words up to 30 different meanings. The only way to know that the original meant was if there was a solid oral tradition. And there are different copies of the Quran today that use different meanings on some words. To be consistent you have to be skeptical that the Quran has not been preserved
@Surf 4) ... AS A RESULT, we have many VERSIONS of Bible and more than 40 more anonymous gospels which didn’t included in current Bible.
You are making poor and illogical argument with no academically resource.
There is no capitalization in Koine Greek (K.G.). In the gospel according to johns there is no such a thing “the word” vs. “the Word”. Neither is “the god” vs. ‘the God”. If anonymous johns wanted to say “God” like we do in English, they would simply say “the god” or “THE GOD”.
@TrinityDesist It is not the Title of a book that makes it a Gospel but the content which only the Apostles of Christ gave. None of those unjustifiable assumption of those other fake gospels bare much scrutinty before the idea collapses. We know precisely when they were written and by which group. The were not even written in the same century that the original person live in!
The "English" words do not change the meaning of the Texts, English capitalisation only developed recently
@Surfxeo 5) ... If we look the verse which it reads in K.G. “the word was god.” Not “the Word was God.”
And your assumption on this issue AGAINST to Trinitarian Scholars which they deny that the verse was telling us WHO the Word was. Rather WHAT the word was.
Quotation from some of the Trinitarian Scholars: "the Word was Divine" (Goodspeed, E.J. An American Translation N.T. 1923). "the Logos was Divine" (Moffatt, J. The Bible 1950).
@TrinityDesist You cannot justify your position in any rational way!
"kai theos En ho logos" --- "And god was the word" Literal transation
In fact the older manuscripts looks more like this KAITHEOSENHOLOGOS. The word God "theos" is abbreviated as (Theta, Sigma).
It is always the context of the verses within the context of the book by the same author which tells us what the meaning of the words are, not someones 21st century bias or from foreign country.
@Surfxeo 6) ... "And what God was, the Word was" (New English Bible 1961). "the Word was Divine" (Schonfield, H.L. Authentic N.T. 1956). "The Word was with God and shared his nature" (Translator's N.T. 1973). "and the nature of the Word was the same as the nature of God" (Barclay, W. N.T. 1968).
SATAN called “The God (HO THEOS)” in Koine Greek which always refers to The Father.
@TrinityDesist The Son shares the same nature as the Father. What is that nature? The divine nature, They share the being as God.
You said satan is called the "Almighty God". This verse does not use of the word for "Almighty God" was El Shaddai. The Greek word theos is used to describe a meaning, in this context God is used in the sense of the false God of the unbelievers who will perish outside the Gospel of Christ. As it says in John that light is Christ.
Go Bart Ehrman keep debunking the New Testament!
AnsweringChristians1 1 week ago
Saint Bart is GOD himself
he showed Jesus for what he really is.
paltalkx 1 week ago
Blessed are the cheesemakers.
Life of Brian.
harpo103 3 weeks ago
PRAISE JEBUS, The LIAR !
ray180597 1 month ago
Nobody followed Jesus around with a steno pad taking dictation. The Gospels are paraphrasing at best. We only have copies of the original maunuscripts. None of the originals exist anymore. That we know of, anyway. Texts were copied and recopied and changed over time. They were added to and subtracted from, translated and retranslated. What we have today are rudimentary copies of long gone originals.
harpo103 1 month ago
@harpo103 Even the originals weren't written by witnesses, it's very creepy to me how real people think these stories are. Faith is no more a virtue than ignorance. Most christians can't tell you what language the stories were initially written in. Go test this if you'd like.
AMpufnstuf 3 weeks ago
@AMpufnstuf What Jesus said is paraphrased at best. There was an oral tradition for a generation or so, then people started writing stuff down that they thought that he may have said. We don't have his EXACT words! What we do have is the gist of what he may have said. Could you recall something that was said by someone in 1970?
Even someone who made such a strong impression on you as Jesus may have done? You would probably recall something of what he said, but, most likely, NOT verbatim.
harpo103 3 weeks ago
@harpo103 Isn't this one more piece of wood to throw on the massive fire of reasons to believe there is no god and what we claim to know about him is a hoax? He sent one messenger, ever, who cured what a thousand people of hunger for one day and then died? And he couldn't even get a single page of text to spread on the earth without it being flawed and fraudulent before it ever reached the rest of us.
If that's omnipotence, then cancer is gods way of showing us he loves us.
AMpufnstuf 2 weeks ago
@AMpufnstuf Don't know!
I am in Bill Meher's camp. He says that we just don't know if there is a God or not. Anyone who tells you that they are CERTAIN that there is one, is certainly full of crap. Nobody knows for sure. Isn't life a struggle between Good and Evil? Existence VS Non-Existence? Maybe, the Good creates life, but, Evil tries to smother it and make it miserable? I just don't think that you can quote the Bible chapter and verse and be taken seriously by anyone about it.
harpo103 2 weeks ago
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harpo103 1 month ago
@harpo103 Do you mean Islam is a copy of Christianity? How much have you studied Islam to say that? Do you think it is wise to judge the religion by the media, like Dr. Bart E. does?
islomhaq 1 month ago
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harpo103 3 weeks ago
@islomhaq Then again you are talking about the things you do not know. Quran could never be written by a man. Have you just read it for curiosity and pondered as you suggest us using our brains? Why don't you do the same? Read this "man made" book and use your brain, don't freak out, don't go crazy, just make sure it is what you think it is.
I am sure you would believe in God, if you were on a crashing plane, so be honest, do what you tell other to do: read Quran and think.
islomhaq 3 weeks ago
@harpo103 haha what part of it, I'd love to explain :)
xJaysrox 3 weeks ago
"Yes, when I stop valuing my life, that's what I'll do" Interesting, what does this say about today's Islam in the West?
Icepunchpie 1 month ago in playlist Favorite videos
beliefe in islam! la illaha illalah, muhammed is rasul allah! in the koran is meantin that is jesus wasnt crussidfied, etc. god knows best.
Lamuares 1 month ago
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Lamuares 1 month ago
The religious loony-toons should calm down and use their brains once in a while. Bart is only telling us what scholars have known for decades, generations or centuries. He is NOT giving too many of his opinions, he is stating FACTS. You guys have a real problem with facts!
If someone doesn't toe your line, you freak out and get even crazier.
harpo103 1 month ago
@harpo103 - Amen brother!
Rocketryman 1 month ago
Can I envision a religion springing up from the Star Wars series? Yes, I can—they call themselves Taoists, they frequent Taoist discussion boards, but they have a view of Tao that seems based on George Lucas’ Force, not Lao Tzu’s Tao.
Cathmoytura 1 month ago
BART GET OFF YOUR LITTLE PITTY PARTY, YOU ARE NOT GOD!!!! YOU ARE A MAN.
pauldunnbellaliant 1 month ago
@pauldunnbellaliant
Praise Jewsus!
ZOGcorp 1 month ago
The Just shall live by Faith" The time to get ready is now confess your filthy sins and get right with God through Jesus, why do you think he came to earth...read the Christian bible. And again Who in the World cares what Bart thinks or says he is NOTHING but God and all of his love will still forgive him and that is more than I can say for this world. Everybody is entitled to their opinion even if it is WRONG, get right with JESUS BART, time is runnin g out.
pauldunnbellaliant 1 month ago
who cares what bart thinks really, what does he know, I see a back slidden Christian angry at God and the world poor sad little man who can't figure that all you need is Faith and leave the big stuff to the Creator, which I believe he saaid "My ways are higher than your ways" People do you watch the news and can't you see the trouble we as a nation are in, it will be to late when you have to line up for food and receive the verichip in order to live. I am not worried about for Jesus said "The ju
pauldunnbellaliant 1 month ago
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@pauldunnbellaliant - "who cares what bart thinks really"
That is like saying you got a report card that was all F's. You then re wrote it, adding some A's... No F's. I guess the second report card is correct. And you really are not ignorant. Fantastic.
Rocketryman 1 month ago
I think Bart Ehrman he was so felicitous in this lecture and he is so academic about his historical understanding of biblical scripture which led him to be atheist but he didn't deal with the holy Quran in the same level when they asked him about the Quran it is so strange, and I didn't expect that from a scholar because he know nothing about that book so how he make such a statment when he had been asked about it
SuperSalman1977 1 month ago
@SuperSalman1977 well how do u deal with the ancient greek gods?the egyptian book of the dead, the bhagavad gita or the veda? religious indoctrination depends only on the time and the place a human is born.u speak about the quran cause it just happened ur ancestors are from the middle east.why should u give special attention to the above,or why ehrman to the quran
Samura1gamer 1 month ago
@Samura1gamer hello again nobody ask Dr Ehrman to study Islamic theology but if somebody ask u about any subject and you don’t have information and from the academic honesty you have to said I don't know and not like the answer that he said. Last I gave special attention because Islam ,Christianity , and Jewish are same theology in sense all claim Ibrahimic tradition
SuperSalman1977 1 month ago in playlist Liked videos
@SuperSalman1977 hello to you. since ehrman has studied extensively the old testament along with the new i'd say his answer shows pretty much what we knew already.that any religion based on OT cannot be and is not that much different from its other spawns.Even if he hasn't read not one verse from the quaran,since the OT is a huge part of every abrahamic religion will always lead to a similar answer by an non religious reader
Samura1gamer 1 month ago
@Samura1gamer
Christianity, Islam, and Freemasonry are all branches of Judeo-monotheism.
ZOGcorp 1 month ago
@ZOGcorp yes i kinda already knew that for the past 20 years but thanks anyway for the tip!
Samura1gamer 1 month ago
@Samura1gamer hello again if you mean that Dr, Eheman depend on the OT judge the authenticity of the Quran that would be not just and i can tell you that the Quran is pretty different but to know the difference any one have to read and theQuran agree with what Dr Ehrman said about the bible because the Quran tell us to believe in the gospel of Jesus not the gospel of John ,Luke, Mathew ,and Mark and to believe that Jesus is just a prophet like Mohammed ( peace be upon them both)
SuperSalman1977 1 month ago
@SuperSalman1977 First, Ehrman is an agnostic, not an atheist. Secondly, I don't blame Ehrman one bit regarding his answer about the Koran. When muslims are willing to murder anyone who won't kowtow to their view of Islam and the Koran, why should a scholar like Bart Ehrman willingly enter a field of research that could place his life at risk?
crucisnh 1 month ago
@crucisnh first of all ,any one kill any person for any reason he is a criminal what ever his race religion or any reason so I totally agree with you about the radicals Muslims and they are small minority but with my respect you exaggerate when said "Muslims" which give impression that all the Muslim world. The majority of Muslims they are very peaceful people and by the way many westerns they criticize Islamic theology and they have a lot of books and studies about this religion.
SuperSalman1977 1 month ago in playlist Liked videos
@SuperSalman1977 I agree that they're a small minority. But in a religion with a billion+ adherents, "small minority" is a relative thing. Also, I have to say that I find it distressing when I see so many "honor killings" of young women in the US/Canada by muslims that would seem to be otherwise very peaceful, decent people. These people come to the US/Canada presumably for a better life, and then engage in this barbaric behavior when their daughters want to assimilate.
crucisnh 1 month ago
@crucisnh yes I totaly agree but dont make your judgment about a certin low or religon by what the people do but you spouse to do your judgmet on the people if they applied this low or religon in their live so I think that doesn't reflect the islamic tridition but you Know may be its a trible tridition which may be the people in the west think that these are islamic teaching
SuperSalman1977 1 month ago
@SuperSalman1977 Yes, I know that there a good people that are also muslims. At least I hope so. ;) But it does concern me that the supposed good, peaceful muslims don't stand up more aggressively against the dangerously violent ones. They seem to do so so rarely, than it seems that they only do it when pressured to do so and not because it's the right thing to do.
crucisnh 1 month ago
@crucisnh well I think what the Muslim paid to fight those criminal is far more than the western society and I’m not talking about money but about the people how died to fight them so we the Muslims the baggiest victim but the media deceive the people and by the way there is many example in the other religion and group even the agnostic but they just want to attack this religion and don't forget what the agnostic like Stalin for example how he kill 20 million people and many other
SuperSalman1977 1 month ago
@crucisnh
Ehrman knows that Islam is just as absurd and nonsensical as Christianity, but he's too politically correct and/or afraid to say it.
ZOGcorp 1 month ago
pauldunnbellaliant
I'm guessing he didn't loose his faith due to "little differences" in scripture but rather in the whole maufactured tall stories by bronze age tribal sheep hearders thing.
Mind you who wouldnt if they really thought about it from a blank canvass start point.
Trouble is very few have this as thier start point.
SSHLSL 1 month ago
I attended your debate with craig evans in wolfville, ns. I can't believe you lost your Faith because of a little difference in scripture. after the debate you seemed very unhappy and I stated to you that you need to have a little Faith in Jesus, forget about what you think is wrong and focus on everything that is right.
pauldunnbellaliant 1 month ago
@pauldunnbellaliant You clearly haven't heard the full reason as to why Bart Ehrman became an agnostic. There are a couple of youtube clips where he talks about why. The basic reason is that he couldn't rationalize the problem of suffering in the world with a supposedly loving god. The "little difference" in scripture was only the wedge that caused him to have a more open mind about his faith.
crucisnh 1 month ago
@crucisnh hi first of all I want to thank you for your correction. and I agree with any one who ask why the suffering with presence of God is happen, but in my opinion it is not an evidence to say God does not exist in my opinion its a supposition and he support this supposition by the evidence of the corruption in his holy bible which he study in depth as I think
SuperSalman1977 1 month ago in playlist Liked videos
@SuperSalman1977 Ah, but the point is that it was his opinion that mattered when it came to making the decision as to whether god did or did not exist. And Dr Ehrman couldn't accept the existence of all the suffering in the world and still believe. Others obviously can. Anyways, I was only pointing out why he came to his decision to become an agnostic, since someone asked.
crucisnh 1 month ago
@crucisnh thank you for you clarification and if you mean me that I can accept the suffering in the world and God existence actually yes because there is 1000 evidence which we know in the Quran prove the existence of God with out doubt so I have to find reason why may God let suffering happen not to said their is no god without evidence
SuperSalman1977 1 month ago
Skip to 4:00 to avoid useless blabering.
DerSteppenwolf1979 2 months ago
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darkchibicosmos 2 months ago
The problem is that liturgical Christianity is not growing. It's fading. It's fading into general spirituality, agnosticism, and atheism. Strident literal Christianity is growing, both in the Global South and in the United States. Traditions like Calvinists, Southern Baptists, Indigenous African churches, etc., are growing while Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc., are shrinking.
TacticusPrime 2 months ago
@TacticusPrime Sorry I am confused. You said Calvinists are growing and then you said Presbyterians are shrinking? I think you have made a category error, the majority of Presbyterians have always been Calvinists. Presbyterianism only refers to the type of government of the church which we find in the New Testament, in how to run the church. Our church has always been Calvinist as Presbyterianism is the direct descendent from John Knox who really brought Calvinism to Scotland.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo Hardcore Calvinists, generally not Presbyterian, are growing. Mainline Presbyterians, who can be Calvinists but don't take it very seriously, are shrinking. The point is that mainline churches are fading away, while extremists are gaining ground. That's the future of Christianity.
TacticusPrime 2 months ago
@TacticusPrime Prebyterianians are all generally Calvinists. You get Presbyterianisms from Calvinism, to have a prebyterians reject calvinism that perbyterian will always fade away from calvinism. They are closely linked together.
Presbyterian derive the name from the Greek word presbýteros (πρεσβύτερος) "elder" [Acts 14:23, 20:17, Titus 1:5]
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo Yes, organizationally and by institutional descent Presbyterians are Calvinists. But mainstream Presbyterians do not push the kind of strict Calvinism of guys like Al Mohler and Mark Driscoll, etc. They even voted to allow faithfully partnered homosexuals into their church leadership.
TacticusPrime 2 months ago
@TacticusPrime But the whole point of Presbyterianism is that no person has leadership. The Minister/Pastor is under the government of the elders. This was all done not under the Presbyterian government. This isn't was Presbyterianism is and it should be all done under the authority of the word of God. No sodomite can enter the church Presbytery, the same goes for a polygamist, an adulterer, fornicator. The Bible makes it very clear what is considered sin.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo Tell that to the largest group of Presbyterians in America, the PCUSA. Look, you're just arguing semantics. The truth is that most Presbyterians are mainline and theologically liberal. They don't take the full implications of Calvinism seriously. There are people of many denominations who are actually hardcore Calvinists, like Mohler/Driscoll/etc. My argument was that mainline churches, like PCUSA, are declining while the more dangerous literalists grow.
TacticusPrime 2 months ago
@Surfxeo 4) "The only begotten Son John 1:18 & 3;16 * the innovated concept of Jesus being the "only begotten son" of the Father was developed in the forth century. It was injected by Jerome into the Latin Bible to refute the claims made by Bishop Arius (d.336) and his associates that Father alone was really God and Jesus was made (created) and not "begotten"."
(Dr. Raymond Brown, the "Anchor Bible" Vol. 29 and Dr. Paul B. Duff, Chair, Dept. of Religion at the geroge Washington Univ.)
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
Sorry. It is not Forde by Bart Ehrman p.86 but *Forged by Bart Ehrman p.86
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
SULTAN.ORG
yansab 2 months ago
ISLAM IS THE ONLY WAY
WHICH GOOD READING
yansab 2 months ago
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TrinityDesist 2 months ago
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TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@Surfxeo All the Islamic manusicripts which existed today are same in text (the earliest are written without vowels) but some differences in vowels which doesn't effect on the actual meaning. After prophet saw died, there were many people became Muslims tired to recite Qur'an in their dialect which start to cause spelling mistakes. For this reason Uthman (ra) ordered to unite onto a single harf (modes). And by this event we got one united Qur'an all over the word which all Muslims use.
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
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@TrinityDesist We know what was in the NT at the time of Muhammad and he never said they were corrupted. We already know what the earliest Christian manuscripts said and we keep finding earlier and earlier manuscripts confirm that the Bible has never been corrupted. Your own Quran says the Bible is not corrupt.
This is what modern Muslims are facing, they can see Muhammad never once accurately represented what was in the Old or New Testament.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
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Surfxeo 2 months ago
The New Testament is the most accurately transmitted document from antiquity; it is the most widely transmitted document from antiquity. It is the earliest attested document from antiquity, by a factor of ten!
We now know what was in the original New Testaments by 99.6 % accurate, with only a handfull of additional sentenses which we are unsure of, but none inpact the docrines of the Christian faith.
The Christian faith stands on a firm foundation which is why it has flourished for 2000 years.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
We have more than 124 Greek manuscript witnesses within the first 300 years after the writings of the NT, far more than any other work of antiquity.
In summary 400,000 variants: 99% inconsequential. Most thoroughly documented work of antiquity. Spread over the world quickly, no controlling authority. Any later editing would stand out clearly in comparison with ancient manuscripts.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
crap.. how do we peg our souls to this false book then? Christians are screwed!
sstoicc 2 months ago
@sstoicc The Bible is the only book that can be tested to see that it has been unaltered through the centuries.
You should check the facts before you believe what a radical sceptic like Bart Ehrman tells you. After all it makes him a lot of money out of making radical claims that are unfounded.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo But it has obviously been altered and that is what it's history tells us. I wouldn't disagree with the rest of what you said but if you believe the Bible hasn't been altered, then you need a history lesson.
sstoicc 2 months ago
@sstoicc But I know what is in the original NT so what part has been altered?
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo I forgot that Muhammad and Jesus PBUT were illiterate persons, they weren't know how to read and write.
Caliph Utman (r.a.) was one of the first hand Hafiz (and scribe) of Prophet Muhammad (saw).
For more info: Islamic-awarness . org
Peace!
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist Jesus wasn't illiterate, he could read as we read in Luke 4:14-21. What Scripture actually says is that Jesus was never taught to read, he could already read. As Scripture said "that prophet would be taught of God", Jesus came from God and returned to God to sit again on the right hand of God where he existed from all eternity and now sits.
The only peace is found in Christ who is Lord of the Sabbath.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
Qur'an says the unbelievers who will discover the Qur'an is absolutely true and literally word of God.
'We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (the Qur'ân) is the truth." Qur'an 41: 53
There is no such a book on the universe who challenges to all humankind to find any discrepancies in it. Qur'an 4:82
Truth with evidences. That's why i am a Muslim.
Shalom..
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist Well if you say the Quran is true then you have to say the Christian Scriptures are not corrupted because otherwise you are contradicting what your own Quran says. Surah 5:46-48
I God that He has kept His word pure in the Old & New Testament from the corruption of man.
After all, Caliph Uthman burned the original Quran that Muhammad wrote, so you do not have a wide distribution as we have for the Christian Scriptures so we know what were in the original NT.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo Hmm, I want you to show me where are in Surah 5:46-48 say the Christians manusicripts didn't get corrupted. Please read the verses and then show me where i did contradict the verses. I can show you verses and Hadiths which clearly say that Jews and Christians corrupted their own manusicripts and Bart Ehrman confirms it.
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist I'm not talking about the hadith, I am quoting direct from the Quran
"confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.
And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient."
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo The verse talks about the GOSPEL which revealed to Isa (Jesus) pbuh in his time. Don't mixed it up with GOSPELS which is written by unknown people. So you need to show me a manuscript dated back to Jesus' time that Qur'an talks about. I am waiting...
Sorry i meant to Jesus disciples. But still Jesus was illiterate person which means there is no a scripture actually written by Jesus himself but he borne by knowing the scriptures which is Qur'an says and John 7:15 confirms it.
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist Again you have the wrong name. It is not Isa, it is Jesus. Isa is not the correct translation from the original Hebrew, Isa is the name for Esau and he was hated by God in Scripture. Jesus in Hebrew is Yahshuah.
We have the Gospels written from the time of the Apostles who knew Jesus intimately.
Noone ever said that Jesus sat down and wrote any gospel. It taught it to His disciples who made disciples of the whole world. John plainly shows the deity of Christ.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo 5:48 "And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, CONFIRMING that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a CRITERION over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. ..."
As you can see Qur'an makes quality control on the previous sicriptures and confirms which is true. So, i'm still waiting an answer for my question.
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist Where do I start. Are you made a huge blunder.
We have in this text Muhammad telling Christians and Jews to check their own books, The Old & New Testament in the time of Mohammad. Notice Mohammad tell us to check the books Christians and Jews had in the 7th century and see if what Muhammad did was true. And further more for us not to go beyond what we have in our books.
This is the worst kind of prophecy a false prophet could make. Hardly a prophet of God.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo Where does qur'an say the sicriptures (teaching of the previous prophets before Muhammad (saw)) didn't get curropted?
I used John 7:15 an example. And you re right i shouldn't use this verse from this gosple which more curropted than others.
You qutoe me a poem from latest gospel which written anonomous people, so i would like ask you couple questions. Hope you can answer this time. Why is Jesus becomes more devine in gospel according to John than any other Gospels?
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist Since you say the Gospel of John is corrupted. Show us Greek manuscripts from 1st to 4th centuries to show us where the gospal has been corrupted?
There are over 5700 + manuscripts. Show us where? We are all dying to know.
I never quoted you a poem.
As for the latest gospel. That is false, it is only in that order just to be alphabetical (Descending). John is actually the 2nd Gospel in order in the earliest manuscript and has the most surviving multiple copies.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo I don't have to show you, and you don't need to die. Here is the video, the bestseller bible scholar Bart Ehrman which repeatedly says there are over 200.000 manusicripts, till 16th centuries no two are identical. If you have two manusicripts which exactly match you should to give a copy to Bart Ehrman. Well i trust Bart Ehrman over you because he is the world leading bible scholar.
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist Bart Ehrman is in the radical fringe of New Testament scholarship and his deceptions are well known. There are many NT scholars who take him to task over it. Ehrman is an atheist and does not believe in God, let alone Scripture. What Bart doesn't tell you is those varients in the text do not impact the meaning of the text at all. There are merely spelling mistakes and nonsense words that are easily corrected.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo Please let the verse speaks for itself. John 1:14 clearly says ‘The word became flesh.’ It doesn’t need an explanation. The word (God) became flesh.
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist Yes the Word, God, Jesus became flesh. Exactly!!! The second person of the Godhead. Have you not read the text??? Read the whole Chapter!!!
The WORD, The LIGHT, John gave witness to this great light.
HE was in the world and the world knew HIM not.
THE WORD BECAME FLESH AND DWELT AMOUNT US, (and WE beheld HIS glory, the glory as of the ONLY BEGOTTEN of the FATHER,) Full of grace and truth.
JESUS IS THE WORD.
Jesus said I AM THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo @Surfxeo You said “Mohammad clearly thought that what the evil spirit told him was true.” Why did you say that? I want to know. Tell me, what are the criteria for test evil spirit in your anonymous scriptures?
Jesus name in "Eesho" or more specifically "Eesa" since the Northern Palestinian Jews pronounced the letter "shin" as "seen"."Eesho M'sheekha" REFERENCE from Aramaic bible: v-a . com/bible/aramaic-jesus . html
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist
The books of the Bible are not anonymous. They are the words that God moved His Holy Prophets and Apostles to write
Gal 1
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo Bart Ehrman is not an atheist but an agnostic. You should to know the differences. You said: “There are merely spelling mistakes and nonsense words thatare easily corrected.” I think you don’t know anything what the textual critics says about on anonymous gospels. Compare Textus Receptus with Critical/Electic Text. Or compare NIV with KJV. Lol!
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist Bart is an atheist. There is no way on this earth that he will accept any evidence for God until he meets Him at death.
Why would I compair translations from the Greek? When the KJV was firs translated it only had 6 texts to translate from. Now we have thousands of manuscripts that confirm what we have in all these texts. LOL
We go to the earliest texts not ones written in the 17th + century. Where did you go to school? LOL
The NIV & KJV are good translations,
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist I can go on about the Quran as well if you wish to be fair. If you look at all the different translations of the Quran and compare them to the oldest you would find much bigger difference than the New Testament. The NT has better manuscript evidence that the Quran does.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo Are you agree that all the gospels written in Koine Greek? Well you have to prove me and Bart Ehrman that Jesus' pbuh disciples were know how to speak and write Koine Greek language.
I AM in Hebrew "EHEYEH ASHER EHEYEH" which is YHWH or Yahweh for the personal name of God in OT. Which means "the one who lives" not solid I AM in English. You can check it up at jewishencyclopedia . com. If you are saying I AM in Greek means God, a blind man called I AM in NT. Is he god too?
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist I don't have to prove anything to the atheist Bart Ehrman anything. I just read what the experts in the field of Textual Critism and NT scholarship tell us. Not only that but I am learning Koine Greek myself so I can read the NT in Greek.
Terrible argument you made. You may as well through out your english Quran as well! lol
The english words "I AM" are translations from the Greek ego eimi, which is what we have in the New Testament and it is also in the Greek OT
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist But not only does the name for God "I AM" mean "the one who lives" in Hebrew but there are 7 meaning in total you can get from the words I AM in Hebrew. The point is you can only have one meaning in english for the same word in Hebrew. We already know this. This is why Christianity is such a strong faith as it does not need to take away from what is written in the OT as Islam tries to do.
If you had actually read John when Jesus uses I AM the Jews react to the name.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo
Jesus said "Truly, trull, I say unto you, Before Abraham was I AM"
The Pharasees react "Then took they up stones to cast at him"
They wanted to stone Jesus because He appllied the name of God to Himself.
And as soon as He (Jesus) had said unto them, I AM he, they went backwards, and fell to the ground.
Jesus again used the name of Yahweh where the Jewish soldiers fell to the ground at the use of that holy name of God.
This name is sacred in Judaism.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist All of the Mediterranean world spoke Koine Green. It was the common trade tongue the same way english is today. Do not forget that at the time of Jesus the world was still hellenised after Alexander the Greats conquests. Everyone spoke Koine Greek, this is not in dispute. We have the manuscripts to prove it!
But the disciples did not have to speak koine Greek to have it translated into other languages. The NT was translated into Latin, Coptic, Sahidic etc
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo If Jesus was claiming divinity here, He should have at least remained consistent in the usage of words. In Exodus 3:14 the word for “I am” is “haw-yaw’ third person singular Where as the word in John 8:58 is “Ego Eimi” first person singular. Even on the meaning of YHWH, Jesus can’t be the same person. YHWH, which means according to Jewish Encyclopedia: “He who self-exists, self-sufficient”. Jesus cannot self-exist, he needs a father.
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist What do you mean by "Jesus cannot self exist, he needs a father", in your mind what are referring to when you mean father? You think the use of father in Scripture means something to do with sexual procreation?
As for Ego Eimi, in the that Jesus uses, this is the first person form for I AM and in Exodus 3:14, it is Ehyeh asher ehyeh. "ehyeh" is the first person singular. The equivalent name in Greek. Which the Jewis Septuigant translates as Ego Eimi also.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo If you meant Jesus exist before Abraham (in what form?), well, angels exist before Abraham (pbuh) too. Also in many verses in Gospel according to John, Jesus makes himself less than God.
You are making assumptions on Koine Greek but the facts is Jesus disciples were illiterate and only spoke Aramaic according to Best seller Bible scholar Bart Ehrman (PhD).
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist The Disciples may have spoken aramaic but there is no evidence to support this claim. Why do Muslims quote a person who does not believe in God and who ofter says that you should not trust texts that have a single line of translation that the Quran has. If you actually apply his stories to the Quran it crumbled to pieces.
Why not quote the vast majority of NT scholars who still work in this field of research who are better qualified to answer & are not anti-christ
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist
The entire New Testament was written of a period between 20 – 40 years from the events which they describe by around 8 different writers.
The New Testament is the best attested text of any from antiquity.
Aside from the 5700+ Greek texts, we have early translations into Latin, Coptic, Sahidic, etc… that are important witnesses to the early text of the NT. Combining these with the Greek texts yields over 20,000 hand-written witnesses.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist
We have more than 124 Greek manuscript witnesses within the first 300 years after the writings of the NT, far more than any other work of antiquity.
In summary 400,000 variants: 99% inconsequential. Most thoroughly documented work of antiquity. Spread over the world quickly, no controlling authority. Any later editing would stand out clearly in comparison with ancient manuscripts.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo John 8:58 which reads in Aramaic translation ""YESHUA SAID TO THEM, TRUTHFULLY, TRUTHFULLY, I SAY TO YOU THAT I COME BEFORE ABRAHAM DOES." Where is the word "I am that I am" (He who self exist-Third person singular)? If you are saying Jesus is God because He said He exist before Abraham, well people many people exist before Abraham.
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist That translation you mad makes no sense lol. John 8:58 is not translating I AM THAT I AM but is only translating I AM, (Ego Eimi).
The point you have completely missed is Jesus existed before Abraham and knew Abraham which means Jesus existed before he took on human flesh. Not only that but John 1 clearly demonstrates that Jesus created the world and mankind. You cannot dissect Gods word like you try and only take what you like, that is not being honest to the truth
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo I gave you to references that Hebrew word Eheyeh Asher Eheyeh doesn't not have same meaning and spelling and tense with Greek word "ego emi". You are mixing up two words on English translation.
You made false assumptions on name of Jesus and lied on Qur'an by saying Qur'an used word Esau which rejected name by the Jews. But Qur'an uses Eesa (Eesho) which is %100 matches with Aramaic and i gave you to reference to prove it.
God' (Allah, Yahweh) curse be upon who ever lies.
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist There are 2 "I AM" statements in Exodus 3:14. You're ignoring one for convenience. Secondly both Tatian and St Ephrem disagree with your interpretation. Thirdly, it's absurd to suggest that Jesus was claiming to be just another man who was around almost 2000 years earlier. Lastly, Arabic Christians pronounce Jesus' name as "Yasu" not "Isa" so there exists a valid discrepancy.
BeingBob 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist The point is I AM is an accurate translation from the Hebrew and Greek, it is first person and present.
Exodus 3:14
"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."
You can see that it is I AM that God wanted Moses to tell the children of Israel what God was called.
Esau is a completely different name to Jesus, Jesus is the same name as Joshuah.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist Yahweh is not a translation of God. It is the name of God.
Allah just means "the God", the same as theos in Greek just means "the God".
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist
The New Testament is the most accurately transmitted document from antiquity; it is the most widely transmitted document from antiquity. It is the earliest attested document from antiquity, by a factor of ten!
Even your god Bart Ehrman cannot find any errors in what I just said.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
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TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@Surfxeo You need come up with evidences, not assumptions. Show us the manuscripts that come from times of Jesus which says all the people from Jesus area spoke Koine Greek or you just made up.
Questions are still remains, why did Jesus use the word “I am” more than 100 times only in Gospel according to John but not in others? Why did in gospel according to john, Jesus became more divine than other Gospels?
Sorry I tried to keep it short.
Peace!
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist
These are not assuptions on my part but is widely accepted in all historical circles in antiquity. It is not only the new testament that proves this but multiple sources tell us. They spoke Greek before 100 BC, during Christs life and after his death.
Luke 23:38 Greek, Latin and Hebrew THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS
You need to show evidence that Greek was not spoken if you wish to affirm your assumption. Vast majority of coins in this period are Hebrew.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo So you re agree that Jesus became flesh NOT incarnate in flesh?
So Book of Jeremiah were not inspired why do you keeping his book in your holy scriptures? You are so delude.
Bart Ehrman is not my god but he is genuine bible scholar who was believing the anonymous gospels %100 word of god.. After his research he became an AGNOSTIC not an atheist. So holy ghost didn't help to keep his faith like many other bible scholars.
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist Who said Jeremiah was not inspired?????????????????
You are lying when you say that B. Ehrman became an agnostic (as you put it). He has never said that nor has he ever affirmed that responce. Ehrman has always said he lost his faith because of the problem of evil.
Bart wouldn't have lost his faith if it was true saving faith, he never had faith to begin with.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo You can’t say the writers of this verse are specifically referring WHO the word was which you assumed it is Jesus (pbuh) but rather it refers WHAT the word was. Qur’an says Allah (The God Almighty) said the word “BE!” and He was. God is mercy but the Mercy is not God. Commit no excesses by saying something which isn't there.
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist A person is always a WHO not a WHAT. This is basic english.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo I asked you to show me anywhere in anonymous scriptures that Jesus ever called The God Almighty in Koine Greek. Yet the SATAN called The God Almighty which always referred to the Father.
I didn’t say the Jews, I said the Jewish Rabbis. Go ask them that does the word “EHEYEH (I WILL BE)” ever mean “ANIY (I AM)” in Hebrew and had God ever called by this name “Eheyeh (I Will Be)” in OT?
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist Satan is NOWHERE called The Almighty God in Scripture.
I have already asked a Jewish Doctor with a PH.d in Hebrew and he said the I AM THAT I AM is a very acceptable translation.
You keep mentioning "I WILL BE", What does God say from the Old Testament what He will do? Whal will God perform which he has revealed to his Prophets the words which will never fail? The prophecies ONLY found in the Old Testament.
Jesus is the Alpha & Omega, the First and the Last.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo IT IS NOT CALLED THE SEPTUAGENT but THE SEPTUAGINT. And Trinitarians (like you) do NOT accept 7 BOOKS of it. Lol!
No we don’t call God as Abb (father) rather we call God Rabb (The creator). Abb simply means in Aramaic and Arabic Father but when this word (father) refers to God the meaning always changes and never applies literally. Also, there is no ONE SON but SONS BY TONS in OT.
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist Christians accept all the Scriptures in the "Septuagint". LOL
You made a major blunder earlier why quoting the wrong words from Exodus 3:14 just to remind you, much more than a simple spelling mistake.
"SONS BY TONS" You are quoting Bart again. But there is context to when those words are used. Even Christians are referred to as adopted sons of God. But there is ALWAYS a distinction between the one and ONLY Son of God and those that are in Christ.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo I don't have to show you, you made an assumption that you can prove by the scriptures that Jesus and His disciples spoke Koine Greek. I asked you to give me your reference. Show me one scripture comes from Time of Jesus which clearly says Jesus and His people all were know Koine Greek.I am waiting....
I take Bart Ehrman over you because he is a genuine scholar and textual critic of the Bibles. Which he says they spoke Aramaic and they didn't speak Greek. (Misquoting Jesus, and many...)
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist
B, Ehrman is a radical sceptic at the minority fringe of NT scholarship who has not done any Textual Critism in over 10 years. He doesn't work in this line of work. To be honest you would have to look at what the main NT scholars says about the NT texts
If you trust Bart Ehrman then you would have to agree with him that the NT manuscripts we have are exactly what we have in our english translations today. I have listened to his debates and know his view on this.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo "It should be regarded as a living text, something constantly changing as generation and generation tries to understand the mind of God," says David Parker, a Christian working on digitising the Codex. (news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7651105.stm)
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist I have not made an assuption as all the earliest NT texts are in Koine Greek, Israel before the time of Christ spoke Greek. The Jewish OT is in koine Greek (septuigent), and Greek was spoken long after the time of Jesus.
What you have is an assuption based on a vaccum which noone can provide any evidence for. I'm sure Aramaic could have been spoken but there is no evidence that it was the main language. From the time of Jesus most of the coins found are in Hebrew.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo 1. The verse clearly says that Jesus became flesh. Not incarnate in human flesh. These are two different meaning.
2. You made false assumptions on the Qur'an about name of Jesus (pbuh) but I prove to you wrong.
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist Yes it clearly says that God became flesh. Took on the form of a servent. God became man with 2 distinct natures in one person forever. It is the only way that man can be perfect and sinless by having the divine nature of God. That would be considered incarnation. We have already shown that Jesus preexisted in John 8 so you know that he must take on the form of a servant.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo 3. You’re still mixing up two words which are completely different than each other on the meaning, verb, spelling and language. The literal and proper translation of the verse is: I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE. Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: I WILL BE has sent me to you." Since the author of the Gospel of John utilized the Greek Septuagint translation of the Bible in his writings, it cannot be assumed that John's Jesus is referring to the words in Exodus 3:14.
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist It can be "I AM THAT I AM", or "I AM WHO I AM", or "I will be what I will be" or "I will be who I will be", or "I shall prove to be whatsoever I shall prove to be" or even "I will be because I will be". However Jesus is not referring to "I AM THAT I AM", Jesus is quoting the full title in Exodos 3:14 but to "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 as I have said was the name that God Elohim, Yahweh which is Ego Eimi in Greek.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo Although Jesus actually spoke in Hebrew or Aramaic, not Greek, John recorded Jesus' alleged words in Greek. Ego eimi ("I am"), used by John's Jesus, is not the same as ho on ("The Being, The One Who Is"), which is used in the Septuagint's rendering of Exodus 3:14: "And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and He said, Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: THE BEING has sent me to you."
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist I never suggested ego eimi is the same as ho on and is not quoted in John 8:58. However Jesus does say "Ho On" in the Revelation of Jesus Christ by St John (Revelation 1:4, 8; 4:8; 11:17; 16:5).
The Septuagint version (the Greek translation of the Old Testament), the translation of Ex.3:14 is ego eimi ho on ("I am the One who exists").
However the reaction of the Jews in the next very tells us that they understood I AM to belong to God.
See Isaiah 41
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo Even though ho on appears in the Gospel of John, it is never used as a title or name or exclusively as a reference to Jesus.
4. Allah means in Arabic, “He is the God, one and only, He begets not nor He begotten, and nothing like unto him.” The meaning of Allah is not same with Greek word theos which simply means a god (ton theos or o theos means: the God). I doubt about you know Koine Greek which you said you do.
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist Like all words it depends on the context and in the context of before Abraham came into being Jesus existed as "Ego Eimi" I exist.
4.) Allah does not mean “He is the God, one and only, He begets not nor He begotten, and nothing like unto him.” You are just quoting a passage. The etymology of the name of Allah "the [sole] deity, God" (ho theos monos). It is more descriptive than a personal name.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist I know enough Koine Greek to know that "ho theos" is The God as singular, masculine, subject (nominative) and that "ton theon" as singular, masculine, object (assusative).
You can doubt away as much as you like but I know enough and my knowledge is growing, and I can employ the help of an expert in the field if I become stuck with certain words. I have books on Koine Greek right beside me and copies of the Greek NT from before 300 A.D.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo 5. You claimed that Qur’an doesn’t say previous scriptures got corrupted. But I proved you wrong. Jeremiah 8:8-9 in contexts clearly say that scriptures got corrupted. Please let the verses speak for it.
6. Bart Ehrman is a genuine scholar and textual critics of the bibles. His last work published lately called “FORGERY” which makes textual criticism on the anonymous scriptures.
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist
Nowhere in Jeremiah 8:8 does it say that the Scriptures were corrupted by anyone. Let us walk though the test shall we.
Jeremiah 8
8. How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.
9. The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the Lord; and what wisdom is in them?
"How do ye say" this sentence is addressing many people ye is plurar
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist This is God addressing the teachers of the law who were supposed to teach the people Gods law from the Scriptures. God is saying they thought they were wiser than God and not told the people what God has spoken.
They were thinking that in vain God has pronounced his words, it was as if He never said it, they hid the truth of God from the people
"Lo, certainly in VAIN made he it; the pen of the scribes is in VAIN. "The only vain people are those that reject Gods word
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist Gods words will not return to him void. All things that God has said he will accomplish will ALL come to pass. You should take a lesson and stop rejecting His word
Isaiah 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist 6. I have never heard of those anonymous Scriptures. All NT textual critics know who wrote, Matthew, John, Mark, Luke as we have historical early manuscripts that tell us directly from their students who wrote what.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo 7. I’m still waiting the scriptures come from time of Jesus which you said you have it, proves that they were know Koine Greek. Prove Bart Ehrman wrong.
8. NIV ad KJV are not translation but versions. Translation and version do not have same meaning.
Peace!
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist We have the entire Old Testament in Koine Greek in Israel from before the time of Christs birth, whicht the NT accurately quotes from.
"Prove Bart Ehrman wrong" He has to prove his is right first before I can even begin to prove me wrong. What you end up doing is arguing in circles. He first has to prove his assumptions right with evidence before we get to that stage. Show us evidence to prove me wrong. Just one, PLEASE!!!
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo The verse which written by anonymous writer says "the word became flesh (The word was made flesh)". You are now speculating. Commit no excesses by saying something which isn't there.
You said “God became a man forever” which means: “You see that man; he used to be a god.”
What do you mean man can be perfect? Is that the same thing when I say my car is perfect? And I would like to know Jesus preexisted in what form. Spirit or flesh?
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist Are you an idiot? Seriously? Can you not read what is write in front of you? Have you ever read John 1? or any of John?
John 1:14
AND THE "WORD WAS MADE FLESH", AND DWELT AMOUNG US, (AND WE BEHELD HIS GLORY, THE GLORY AS OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER,) FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH.
Notice the english word for Logos "WORD" who in John 1:1-3 is God has not become FLESH. GOD has become FLESH. This is simple english
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist As John 1:1-3 says in Koine Greek
En arkhe ayn ho logos, kai ho logos ayn pros ton theon, kai theos ayn ho logos. hootos ayn en arkhe pros ton theon.
Looke especially at the sentence "kai theos ayn ho logos" A literal translation would be "And God (Theos) was the Word (Logos)" or the proper way to translate it into english "And the word was God".
It is clear to any reasonable person that the only Word mentioned in John 1 is always referring to Jesus Christ
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo Quote: “The most recent thorough studies of Gentiles in Galilee have been undertaken by the American scholar Mark Chancey. Chancey has studied every archaeological find from Galilee from around the time of the first century, has read every single piece of writing from the period of any relevance, and draws a decisive conclusion: the Gentiles in Galilee were almost exclusively located in the two major cities, Sepphoris and Tiberias. ...
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@Surfxeo ... All the rest of Galilee was predominantly Jewish. And since most of Galilee was rural, not urban, the vast majority of Jews had no encounters with Gentiles. Moreover, Greek was not widely, let alone normally, spoken. The vast majority of Jews spoke Aramaic and had no facility in Greek. Forde by Bart Ehrman p.86 (Reference: Mark Chancey, The Myth of a Gentile Galilee (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2002); see also his more recent study, ...
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@Surfxeo ... Greco-Roman Culture and the Galilee of Jesus (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2005).
Issue is not he says Jesus died in his book called the early CHRISTIANS writing but all the historians agree that there is NO evidence to prove resurrection of Jesus. Don’t forget it is not about Jesus died on the cross but he resurrected from the death. If he died on the cross that’s mean he was the FALSE MESSIAH according to Jewish Law.
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist You have just agreed with me that Jesus would have understood and spoken Greek/Latin. He came from a region which has many Roman ruines, a city with the name of the Roman Emperor Tiberius Caesar, in a region controlled by the Roman authorities. Well done!
By the way, Where in the Jewish law does it say that the False Messiah would die?
I can destroy your argument, turn to Daniel 9:24-27, The Messiah will be sacrified, Jerusalem & Temple destroyed, no more sacrifice
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo 2) ... There are some differences on short vowels but we know the short vowels didn’t exist in the original manuscripts. AS A RESULT, we have ONE COPY of Qur’an all over world which we use today.
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@Surfxeo ... But Qur’an debunks Jewish claims and confirms that Jesus was the ONLY true Messiah and God answered his prayers and saved Him from the death and took Him up to Himself. (Qur’an 4:157-158. Read also Hebrews 5:7)
The God Almighty CURSE be upon who ever lies. Amin.
Peace!
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist The Quran itself says that Jesus died and was resurrected
Quran 19:30-35
'And peace was on me the day I was born, and peace will be on me the DAY I SHALL DIE, and the day I SHALL BE RAISED UP TO LIFE AGAIN.'
So are you lying when you say Jesus did not die on the cross and was not Resurrected? I know this is the Muslim belief.
The Quran does not debunk what the Jews claim at all. The Quran is too untrustworthy to put any faith in at all; too late to be relevant.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo 1) Your point about the copy of the scriptures is very reasonable. I agree with part of it. But the real issue is not about preservation of scriptures but variation of the scriptures. We can discuss on this, but in summary, all the scholars of Qur’an are agree on that all the existing of the Quranic manuscripts (starting with first century of hijra) are 100% preserved its original language and %100 match with current copy of Qur’an we use today.
...
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist There are variations in the Quranis manucripts also and not perfectly preserved as you put it. The earliest known Quran in existance have varients with no vowel markings giving words up to 30 different meanings. The only way to know that the original meant was if there was a solid oral tradition. And there are different copies of the Quran today that use different meanings on some words. To be consistent you have to be skeptical that the Quran has not been preserved
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surf 4) ... AS A RESULT, we have many VERSIONS of Bible and more than 40 more anonymous gospels which didn’t included in current Bible.
You are making poor and illogical argument with no academically resource.
There is no capitalization in Koine Greek (K.G.). In the gospel according to johns there is no such a thing “the word” vs. “the Word”. Neither is “the god” vs. ‘the God”. If anonymous johns wanted to say “God” like we do in English, they would simply say “the god” or “THE GOD”.
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist It is not the Title of a book that makes it a Gospel but the content which only the Apostles of Christ gave. None of those unjustifiable assumption of those other fake gospels bare much scrutinty before the idea collapses. We know precisely when they were written and by which group. The were not even written in the same century that the original person live in!
The "English" words do not change the meaning of the Texts, English capitalisation only developed recently
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo 5) ... If we look the verse which it reads in K.G. “the word was god.” Not “the Word was God.”
And your assumption on this issue AGAINST to Trinitarian Scholars which they deny that the verse was telling us WHO the Word was. Rather WHAT the word was.
Quotation from some of the Trinitarian Scholars: "the Word was Divine" (Goodspeed, E.J. An American Translation N.T. 1923). "the Logos was Divine" (Moffatt, J. The Bible 1950).
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist You cannot justify your position in any rational way!
"kai theos En ho logos" --- "And god was the word" Literal transation
In fact the older manuscripts looks more like this KAITHEOSENHOLOGOS. The word God "theos" is abbreviated as (Theta, Sigma).
It is always the context of the verses within the context of the book by the same author which tells us what the meaning of the words are, not someones 21st century bias or from foreign country.
Surfxeo 2 months ago
@Surfxeo 6) ... "And what God was, the Word was" (New English Bible 1961). "the Word was Divine" (Schonfield, H.L. Authentic N.T. 1956). "The Word was with God and shared his nature" (Translator's N.T. 1973). "and the nature of the Word was the same as the nature of God" (Barclay, W. N.T. 1968).
SATAN called “The God (HO THEOS)” in Koine Greek which always refers to The Father.
TrinityDesist 2 months ago
@TrinityDesist The Son shares the same nature as the Father. What is that nature? The divine nature, They share the being as God.
You said satan is called the "Almighty God". This verse does not use of the word for "Almighty God" was El Shaddai. The Greek word theos is used to describe a meaning, in this context God is used in the sense of the false God of the unbelievers who will perish outside the Gospel of Christ. As it says in John that light is Christ.
Surfxeo 2 months ago