Jehovah's Witnesses, an Atheist, and a Christian (Part 1 of 2)

[memoryhero]

You were very adept by attempting to nail down the definition of perfect, as Christians tend to throw that term around all day without ever having to define what the f**k it even means... In fact, listening to this made me for the first time realize that Christians, as those who visited you, have no issue with perfect beings sinning if they're people, but will simultaneously probably tell you God would never sin. But perfect people can and would and did sin all day long. WTF.

[Gunner3210]

Jehovah's witness? I will open the door with a (fake, obviously)shotgun and scare the shit out of them.

[TruthBalance]

"perfect" in the bible includes free will, which logically includes the ability to choose sin.otherwise you'd have to build robots. it is logical to include the perfect ma with the ability to choose rebellion.perf4ct doesnt equal" always obedient.think thts fairly simple to see here, no?

[anhela87]

I know exactly what Serving God means to her. It means the same thing to me!

[mikeloaf]

when she mentioned how mother theresa was selfless and great, i became filled with rage, anyone who's read up on the life and work of the woman knows she was a disgustingly vicious sadist.

[tranceman22]

If you want to believe that Adam was perfect then why was he not given knowledge in the first place. Seems to me he was made the perfect idiot. How then can he be held accountable. Yahweh wanted idiots! We as a society don't prosecute those who don't have the mental capacity to understand the consequences of their actions. The Genesis story is illogical.

[darkpersianuk]

As an ex-Jehovah's Witness (20+ year spent in), I can tell you that this is scripted 'pitch' that Jehovah's Witnesses take from door to door. Magazines are released periodically and we are given several paragraph opinions of things to say on the doors when placing them. There are also books which give Jehovah's Witnesses things to say to common 'conversation stoppers' at the doors. Needless to say, I could guess pretty much word-for-word what the young Witness lady was going to say at each point

[ReligiousFiction]

@darkpersianuk - Wow! You were a JW for so long! I guess you went door to door, if you know their 'pitch' so well. It's so good to hear that people can leave that strange and constricting set of doctrines behind. What was the worst part of being a JW? The best?

[briabria37]

@ReligiousFiction ...@darkpersianuk's correct. There are books that tells you how to respond to a xtian, buddhist, muslim etc. The Watchtower Tract & Bible Society (HQ in NY, USA) does nothing but churn out JWs that are reminiscent of the Stepford Wives...they human bots...who are instructed to go out and witness. the best part of being a JW...we excelled in school (most of us were reading before entering school) and holidays mean nothing to me. the worst...the CONTROL

[darkpersianuk]

@ReligiousFiction I was raised in unfortunately. But I eventually found my way past the 'from-birth brainwashing'. It's pretty much like most cults - all smiles, sunshine offering the ultimate truth on the outside, but inside... rotten to the core and extremely controlling. The worst part for me was the constant terror that I then thought so many good people would die at God's judgement day. I had constant vivid nightmares for years. The best? My experiences when in helped make me stronger today

[vincedeporter]

@darkpersianuk Absolutely -- I was a JW for 50 years (ohhh yeah). I was an active preacher for over 42 years, pioneering... problem is, I kept on reading and searching. Ouch. Today I'm a happy atheist.

[AllHeathens1]

i wouldn't have the energy to debate people's fairy tales.

[pyrojoe711]

THIS IS AWESOME!!!!!!!!

[luvsbooks]

How can a perfect person sin? I don't get it either.

[zerobeat18]

Christians (and many western secularists) can easily convince very small children to be good by lying to them about Santa Claus and his nice/naughty list. But the jig is up by the time most kids are in grade school. The delusion is mostly harmless. Religion is an adult version that isn't mostly harmless. There are logical and philosophically sound reasons [without loopholes] for being virtuous, good and kind that don't require invented mythology to convince the otherwise sane.

[tyflyer007]

If Adam was perfect and still sinned against god how is Adam different than someone who is not perfect because wouldn't they do the same thing Adam did? Wouldn't that make Adam also imperfect?

[megthepearl]

Sneaky. Hope the innocent parties learned a lesson in futility.

It's harder to trip up publications.

Examine a trees 'own' leaves. Examine the pages of ' our ' publications. Regards.

[MsAllahhuakhbar]

Islam rule the world!....Islam is the fastest growing religion in USA...why bother about the Jehovah witnesses..many JW are converting Islam...all infidels will go to hell` remember!

[apathist04]

@MsAllahhuakhbar Troll much?

[jiberish001]

She uses laughter to hide her true feelings.

[OjLeno]

This is great! I should start recording next time I invite them in (if ever). Seems more a waste of time given we probably wouldn't be able to get past the difference where they believe the bible is the inerrant word of god and I believe it isn't.

[ReligiousFiction]

@OjLeno - That's part of why I met them where they were and talked about problems with literalism, rather than just dismissing literalism outright. But I encourage you to record it. This stuff needs to be exposed. I think I may take my own advice and ask them, next time.

[PrintedTruth]

i don't think she knew the difference between the hebrew scriptures and the christian greek.

[ROBISDISTURBED]

wow religonfiction put a time bomb in does women heads they going to make math & hopefully some day just snap out of it. 

[surfcrawl]

5:51 FOOD'S READY!!

[greenghost2008]

Atheism seems sssoooo true. I can not understand why humanity is not majority atheists. At least in the wesern world.

[brokenseeker]

@greenghost2008 It is in some european countries.

[InsanelyxLogical]

@greenghost2008 That's also a ridiculous stance, though. You can never know that it's absolutely true. That's why I'm an agnostic atheist. Atheism is pretty likely, but you can never know for certain that what you believe is correct.

[greenghost2008]

@InsanelyxLogical are you saying I can't be sure that a unicorn is right next to me or not?

[InsanelyxLogical]

@greenghost2008 No, I'm saying you can't be sure whether there is a God or not. I think it's pretty unlikely, but there is a possibility. There's a difference between saying you can't be sure of the existence of a supernatural being that's beyond human comprehension, and that you can't be sure of something right next to you. What you believe and what you see are two different concepts. We're talking about beliefs, not provable fact.

[Jeffersonwazright]

I find it just absolutely amazing that all of these people think they are absolutely right. A Muslim would talk with the exact same certainty as these people...and why? Truely why are they so certain? Sometimes I believe that the god of the Bible must be true because the amount of certainty in his being is so inordinate.

[ReligiousFiction]

@Jeffersonwazright - "A Muslim would talk with the exact same certainty as these people" Exactly. Or a Mormon. Or a Jew. Or a Buddhist. Or a Hindu. Or a Leveyan Satanist.

"Sometimes I believe the god of the Bible must be true because the amount of certainty in his being is so inordinate" AHhhh - that's because you live in the US. If you lived in Iraq, the culture around you would convince you the New Testament was tripe. Or if you lived in Tibet, you might believe the Bhagavad Gita was best.

[vincedeporter]

@ReligiousFiction We are all atheist of other gods... and some of us, go just one god further, as R. Dawkins would say.

[Jeffersonwazright]

This is a fantastic concept...thank you.

[Appalachian85]

Good luck to all you people getting over your urge to quantify the integrity of belief systems. This is futile, as no one knows anything; Evidence is so if it's called so; The truth is the story that survived time; perfection, whatever, is irrelevant. Even with benefit of doubt all rational conclusions are not even rational, and nothing is based in logic really. We all must discover truth for ourselves. god, no god, this god, that god. Forget it all. Be your own god. Sub to me.

[ReligiousFiction]

@Appalachian85 - I think I like your point, except that we do use logic, and have to, on a regular basis. When you leave your house, do you walk through the wall, or use the door? Do you plan on gravity being consistent, or turning off every now and then? Do you eat food or rocks?

regardless, nice post.

[Appalachian85]

@ReligiousFiction  It's so hard to fit anything worth saying in 500 spaces:) Yeah, but what I believe their is a fine line between logic and common sense. I don't believe logic is what makes me go through the door instead of the wall. Even things like gravity, in my opinion, are not rooted in logic or rationallity, but common sense. I use logic in my machine shop to determine production plans, but it's common sense that keeps me from sticking my fingers in the machines! Thanks for checking me!

[TomMSTie1138]

2:24 - WTF, did the Witness just say, "I'd never wanna push my belief on somebody else"???

To coin a phrase Holy (bull)shit!

[zerobeat18]

@TomMSTie1138 On a scale of 1-Murder, JWitness pushiness is about a 2.

[TomMSTie1138]

@zerobeat18 Candidate for #3, bread crumbs in the butter.

[TemporalOnline]

SO I guess I can summarize this way: If something that is perfect discords from other thing that is perfect, one of the two, or both were never perfect to begin with, UNLESS the meaning of perfection means something else |:P

[TemporalOnline]

BTW, I love your vids |:)

[TemporalOnline]

UNLESS being perfect means not having any sin in the perspective of god; But then this is not perfection, unless god is perfect(from our perspective and not his), but why would I want to go against something that is perfect, I being perfect, UNLESS I discord from that perfection, making it not perfect then?

[TemporalOnline]

I understand the concept of being clean until getting dirty, when you are not clean anymore, BUT, If I'm perfect, I can avoid being dirty. If I have a chance of getting dirty then I was never perfect in the first place.

[billygundum]

a perfect person would choose the perfect choice, however, i don't think the bible says that they (adam & eve) where perfect.

[Skavar4000]

Oh man give me a JW to play with! Where did you get yours? Do they make good pets?

[merlinspower]

@Skavar4000 .. where do you live ? be very careful what you ask for .. You will get one . remember, Ask and you shall recieve !

[Skavar4000]

@merlinspower Don't worry... I used to be one! They will not come to my door anymore.... still have a sister and other family in this doomsday religion.

[coreygames]

5:50

Hot pocket is ready XD

[Xoroaster]

Bravo on the patience. On to part 2!  ;-D

[skyzthelimi7]

Thanks for uploading, but as an ex-JW - now atheist, you were far too soft on these ladies. For example the purpose of life? There is no purpose! We are here, and like all life we try to survive and make the best of it. Your answer was too flowery. And you could have pressed them a little on a literal Adam, everything hangs on that. Anyway just an opinion.

[Skavar4000]

@skyzthelimi7 Actually i agree totally Skyzthelimi. I was waiting for the hammer to fall!

It's a question of the "undeserved respect religion receives". Just a little too much respect for faith based beliefs is going on here. Which is completely different from basic human civility, which everyone is due.

[ReligiousFiction]

@skyzthelimi7 - Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I guess I can see how I came across as too soft. For better or worse, that seems to be my modus operandi until I'm really pushed. I do genuinely hope they return, and we can get more into biblical literalism. My friend and I both, without discussing it, realized that was the platform on which they stood, so rather than argue about literalism, we'd help to show them how silly it is. Next time I may show them my video "Bible Problems"

[ReligiousFiction]

@skyzthelimi7 - I also thought saying there was NO purpose would sound nihilistic to them, and send up red flags of depression and apostasy, or other things they consider terrible. I believe there IS purpose; we choose it.

Did you ever go door to door? If so, what was that like? What is the training like?

[PluralOfEverything]

Crime and war is the fault of government, not a product of human nature.

[TheraminTrees]

4:05 'As a saviour, what do think Jesus if saving people from?' — Great question! And led to a fascinating point about Adam's perfection, which I note they had no answer for. I liked your tenacity with it to — coming back to it when they seemed to drift away. Me and Qualia had discussions with JWs for sixth weeks one summer — listening to this video really takes me back ;8)

[IntelligentProbe]

It would seem to me that if what they are saying is true, then this would end up being nothing more than an endless cycle of redemption/fall, because if perfection doesn't bring with it perfect obedience, then there will always be a fall and a need for redemption. However, it would seem at some point hell would have us all.

Such nonsense.

[ReligiousFiction]

@IntelligentProbe - You an unassumption pegged it! I quoted his post just recently. Basically, if even perfect beings can sin, there's a certainty that with 'eternal'/infinite time, all of them would end up in hell. ...And maybe they'd need yet ANOTHER savior!

[theheinzification]

@ReligiousFiction what i would like to know: jw are basically young earth creationists, at least as for the claim of mankind existing only for about 6000 years. but how do they know for how long adam and eve actually lived in the garden of eden??? could well be millions or billions of years, or just a few weeks. in that light humans are around for an unknown amount of time.

and btw if a+e were in this garden for a long time before the fall... how bored must they have been.

[osaka35]

mother teresa is very much NOT a selfless person. She's actually quite horrible.

[ReligiousFiction]

@osaka35 - You and two other 'Tubers' have picked up on that! Sigh. It was the only example I could think of at the time... you have to admit she's famous, and most people don't question her 'goodness.' I'm not sure how the JWs feel about Catholicism and their 'saints', but I still think it got the point across.

[KanpekiJan]

@osaka35 She was actually rather pitiful. She often said that she couldn't feel any faith and that she had great doubts. Still, she pushed herself to believe. Yeah, she actually didn't do much good. But rather than horrible, I'd call her pitiful.

[osaka35]

@KanpekiJan Well, I'm referring to the part of her faith that needed her to be close to pain. To try and understand more of the pain and suffering that she believed jesus went through. This is why I feel her to be horrible. the funding she used for the sick and injured weren't used to get them better. They were used to house them in one place so they could share their pain. Not to help, but just to experience. and there are other things that weren't on the up and up. but yeah...she is pitiful.

[limegreensquid]

Their hesitation betrays their own realization that what they say is horse shit, and perhaps they had some more questions...

[sashavboyd]

I want to be a Jehovah's Witness now, just in case I can get a conversation like this out of it. Although I'd have to insist that they stop using the name ‘Jehovah’, if that's indeed what they call themselves, because that name is based on a misunderstanding of the Hebrew in the bible. I think. It should be ‘Yahweh's witnesses’...

[ReligiousFiction]

@sashavboyd - Well, Yahweh is just as ridiculous a misunderstanding. The Hebrews put together 4 unpronounceable syllables so that no one would try to say the name of god, because they considered it sacred. Our modern representation of 'y h w h' is a bastardization of the idea.

[sashavboyd]

@ReligiousFiction Is it ridiculous? That's interesting. I should probably do more research before I go and ask them to change their name :P. It'd be difficult to construct something totally unpronouncable in Hebrew though — at least for people who didn't know any better — considering their consonantal writing system.

[trifelgeputinage]

Mother Teresa is an interesting example of a selfless person - have you read Hitchen's on Mother Teresa? She was a nasty, reactionary old git. 

[ReligiousFiction]

@trifelgeputinage - As I was mentioning her, I realized that she might not be the most upstanding example, but she would almost certainly be an example they recognized as a good person.

[limericklad2000]

Great chat. Just an observation but I'd probably have chosen someone other than Mother Theresa as an example of selflessness. A woman who has been partly responsible for the spread of AIDS through an entire region.

[ReligiousFiction]

@limericklad2000 - I did think of that as I was speaking! But I think that it probably got my point across.

[limericklad2000]

@ReligiousFiction Yeah you're probably right. Did they know they were being recorded by the way? If not could that pose any potential problems?

[bdwilson1000]

"As a savior what do you believe Jesus is saving you from?" Great question..You know it immediately brought the hell and sadistic wrath of their god to mind..though they obviously didn't want to admit it.

[ReligiousFiction]

@bdwilson1000 - They mentioned later that they don't believe in a torturous hell. Perhaps they just think that people who die are dead... EXCEPT for the awful, horrible, painful tribulation they barely touched on. So that could be what was brought to their minds!

[merlinspower]

Question, Did you inquire how long the witness had been in the (truth)? Practicing her faith... Because I have studied this faith for some time. Most Elder JW's answer your concerns differently.

[ReligiousFiction]

@merlinspower - I didn't think of that, and I did wonder if I'd get different answers from others. I guess JWs must train their missionaries, but we clearly strayed from their usual conversation, making one of them very uncomfortable and unhappy, and the other very interested. Maybe they'll send elders next time!

[unassumption]

In heaven we will be perfect. Perfect things have a % chance of sin Sin damns you to eternal hell heaven is eternal if there is any % chance of sin, you will sin over eternity Perfection has the lowest % chance of sin, and is over 0% chance Everyone will eventually sin in heaven if hell has no reprieve, people will all go to hell and stay if there is a reprieve, everyone will spend an equal time in heaven and hell; infinity in both Schrodinger's soul! Well if god is perfect anything can be.

[ReligiousFiction]

Haha! QFT: "In heaven we will be perfect. Perfect things have a % chance of sin Sin damns you to eternal hell heaven is eternal if there is any % chance of sin, you will sin over eternity Perfection has the lowest % chance of sin, and is over 0% chance Everyone will eventually sin in heaven if hell has no reprieve, people will all go to hell and stay if there is a reprieve, everyone will spend an equal time in heaven and hell; infinity in both Schrodinger's soul!"

[AncientAtheist]

Sometimes I get into it with the J-Dubs when they stop by but mostly I just tell them I don't believe in god and not interested in talking about The Watchtower.

[nayanmalig]

adam & eve were created perfect. but did not know how to choose. conclusion - perfect people do not know how to choose.

[xxxMST3Kxxx]

Wow, very interesting on to part 2 

[BGenerous]

"The moment they became disobedient they stopped being perfect" -- so then I guess the original sin wasn't by a perfect person, and a perfect sacrifice wasn't necessary after all. :)

[ReligiousFiction]

@BGenerous - that's what I kept getting hung up on! But when my friend explained their position (perfect right until they actually decide to sin), at least we could move forward with the conversation.

[IntelligentProbe]

@ReligiousFiction Actually the position that they were perfect before the sin flies in the face of the statement that God knows your heart better than you, thus since their heart was not in the right place, and God knew this, then they did not have an upright and perfect heart before God even before the sin.

Of course how anyone could be charged with any of the above before they had knowledge of good and evil is beyond me.

[ReligiousFiction]

@IntelligentProbe - You know, I actually think she said that god knows the hearts of imperfect people, but not perfect people. Crazy, I know, but that's what she says... clearly, her definition of god does NOT include omniscience. But that is more consistent with a literal reading of the bible... what a mess most religions are.

[IntelligentProbe]

@ReligiousFiction I guess I'd have to ask what distinguishes the perfect heart from the imperfect, and does Adam and Eve meet that definition, given that their heart, seemingly, wasn't upright and perfect before God?

I feel certain that they would fail the test, and hence, they weren't perfect to begin with... however I never underestimate the ability of Religious folk to come up with some new strangeness. You can hear them doing on-the-spot thinking to pacify the objections.

[viego215]

at 4:06 Q "as a savior what do you think jesus is saving us from?"

A "aaaaahhhh" 22 second stump

[nayanmalig]

fantastic. theists get stumped by their own stupidity.

[natoskypr]

interesting...

[GodlessManitoban]

The male voice sounds familiar.

[ReligiousFiction]

@GodlessManitoban - Hmmm. I don't know! He is an actor type...