Jacoby-Shermer Debate (7/10)

[kelbykross1]

Jocoby says the man analyzing the music may not enjoy it as much as the common listener. I and Feynman would disagree. Knowing the deepest reality and appreciating roses on cellular levels, and appreciating rainbows when learning of their polarization and the trajectories light takes through water to create rainbows and sunsets can not make you appreciate them any less.

Learning and taking the time to know how things work takes interest and appreciation of whatever it is.

[CarmineFragione]

From the perspective of being outside of the property of another human being, thus observing from an adequate distance, we can accept that the person seems to be alive and acting intelligently, even if we don't really understand what intelligence is. But to be inside the other person , shrunk so small, we cannot get a grasp of any certain view point,we cannot reckon that what we are invading the space of is an intelligent human being. Being inside the world, we cannot see the outside views

[1empathy]

@CarmineFragione you are a fuckwit.

[CarmineFragione]

Reality is not just the thing and the things, but Reality is the behavior of things, and the behavior of all things can be described as greater than just the things without motion and without correlating behaviors, to be God. God is a Verb, not just a Noun, Can't find evidence of the Noun Sense of God, but before all our eyes is the Verbal Evidence of God, where God is the Way , the interconnecting behavior of everything, so that it all seems to rise to the threshold of an Intelligence

[jmg94j]

What do you mean Shermer never connected with any of the points you made initially? The only point that you have made during this debate so far is that the universe is fine tuned, and incredibly complex, therefore God did it. That is the "God of the gaps" argument and Dr Shermer smacked that argument down by pointing out that many gaps that people used to attribute to God have now been filled with natural explanations, and any gaps that remain are not proof of God, they are only proof of gaps.

[JerezJulio]

the bottom line is that in science, it is the owner of the claim that has to produce material evidence.

Maybe some Email from heaven with a return address, maybe a recipe for reproducing a miracle, stuff like that is acceptable proof. Your personal beliefs are not proof, since no one can reproduce then the way you see then.

same goes for Alien and Alien adoptions, until someone come up with material evidence,

at best, it is just personal anecdotes from people who lost their sanity.

[resculptit]

Proving a negative - Jacoby is merely a CopOut by relying on his "faith" with preaching. His discussion mimics the Monkey Trials. Shermer won this debadte simply because Jacoby uses the word "logic" to prove his point, then spins the same word, "logic", to expunge an Anti view. This is all a bunch of silly stuff where. The BRAIN creates based upon culture and nuture of those that surround them at young ages - and they either fall for it or not. But to believe in the Tooth Fairy is a Faith.

[JerezJulio]

we know that there no omnipotent being anywhere in the universe because the Law of physics are the same everywhere in the universe. Therefore they will do the same everywhere without the need of God.

[dwheel39]

@JerezJulio God by definition is OUTSIDE that natural order. He would have to be since He brought it into existence. Saying there is no need for a "god" or Intelligent Being is like examining an auto factory run entirely by robotic machines and saying "ah ha! We know how cars are made! This machine effects this one and so on down the line.. we've proven there is no "auto designer".  This is ridiculous but it's exactly how atheism "proves" God's existence..think about it and God bless :)

[dwheel39]

@dwheel39 oops, typo.."how atheism "proves" God's NON-existence" i meant :)

[drstrangelove09]

"there'd be no space for anything but god" ... HUH? So much total nonsense and lack of logic! Preposterous supernaturalism and contrived nonsense. So obviously wrong.

[MadMAn12gauge]

i just dont understand religious arguement....how can you advocate something that you cant have any knowledge of?! there is no logic in it.....What because you were raised to believe in it you have to waste your entire life...and by the time you are too old to turn back and realise the bullshit you become too scared to realize you wasted your entire life...i can see why many religious people commit suicide when they realize they wasted their lives, thats a fear and they decide to stick with it

[dwheel39]

@MadMAn12gauge Your psychoanalysis applies to atheists as well and i would say the suicide rate is much higher for those who believe the lies of Materialism/Naturalism. In fact, in an atheistic world, why is suicide "wrong"? These are all clues that point to Something or Someone higher than ourselves. Christianity is the claim that God has reached down and spoken to us, empirically proving who He said He was by overcoming physical laws (miracles) since He is the Author of them :)

[beemecks]

Great for him to acknowledge that omnipotence is a logical fallacy. Good bye argument for every single monotheistic religion.

[fidenful]

The very concept of god is a human creation; that explains everything.

[fidenful]

The reason we know so much about god is because we created the thousands that ever existed .

[BabySatch1]

"Atheism is a self refuting position" - Jacoby

Ye, tell that to Richard Feynman, Stephen Hawking, Lawrence Krauss, Steven Weinberg etc...

All Nobel lauraetes in physics.

[AR333]

Seriously Jacoby, seriously? Who put this man on a podium if he's going to straw man the definition of the very thing he is arguing against. Atheism isn't whole knowledge of the universe, and concluding we know there is no god. Not a single atheist writer has ever written anything like that.

[Ricardius1710]

Jacoby says that god is outside of time. I would have asked Jacoby to explain TIME. He should explain time and then explain how god can be outside of it.

[sleepywolff]

They should both watch The Atheist Experience. I've learned from that show not to say 'who created the universe/ who created god' but to say 'what created the universe/god', which would be the more logical question.

[armelix73]

Atheism DOES NOT affirm any such thing, and Dr Jacoby knows it very well. His arg is flawed and erroneous from the very start. It seems that even the "smartest" among the believers are stupid/dishonest according to the atheist standard. . .No sane atheist is claiming that there is "no god at any corner" of the Universe. An atheist is simply disbelieving an unproven and flawed statement made by the believer, that's it!!! Prove your god or go f**k yourself and your imaginations. . .

[alexhamster1134]

dont like the way he pronounces his hard T's :(

1:00 he says atheists are certain gods dont exist. in actual fact they just reject the existence of one, not affirm it doesnt exist.

[alexhamster1134]

dont like the way he pronounces his hard T's :(

[Domzdream]

Well, you have to now not only prove god's existence, but now you silly twit, have the burden of having to prove your brand of god....using science.

How the hell can one prove somehting they cannot touch, taste, smell, see in any shape or form, etc.

We'd have to use magic here. And we all know magic doesnt exist, ergo, god doesnt exist.

[cristianfcao]

Ok, so string theory is bad because there's no evidence and it may be not falsifiable, and god is ok, because...? OMG, this guy is an ass...

[martiangrundy]

I find it SO hard to believe that these apologists are so dim that they fail to realise these arguments could only ever appeal to someone already brainwashed. I'm sure they must.

They never fail to come across as dishonest snake oil peddlers.

They "prove" it impossible to disprove a deist deity, then slip in their own "god"

It's also very dishonest the way they try to co opt beauty, music, art, and feelings the way they do. Religion certainly has no monopoly on the numinous, awe and splendour.

[noproofforjesus]

why is it so hard for religious to understand atheist say yes we dont believe there is a god as we don't believe there are unicorns on the dark side of the moon. i cant prove neither one to be real or not real but i must go by what is most believable and is provable to are knowledge. so sure there could be a god and he could be green with antennas on his head. but im gone to go with no god exist as there is no proof for a god.bring me the evidence of god. heal some amputees and i will believe.

[xxjudzonxx]

@noproofforjesus I mean this in the nicest and most polite way possible, but for us to say "give me proof, show me this God, and "heal some amputee" ".. well, to be honest, its been done. Jesus came down to earth and healed MANY, he healed in front of people, showed his love, yet we still crucified him. So it is quite ignorant at this point to say "HEAL AN AMPUTEE".

[xxjudzonxx]

@xxjudzonxx he's already come down and healed people.. he's done so many miracles yet we stil ldidn't believe him and crucified him.  but i do know what your trying to say, you just worded it quite differently i guess. anyways, hope your find your truth.. with an OPEN MIND.. and i stress open mind, because most people already made up their minds before listening to anyone, but i can tell your smarter than that. take care my friend

[noproofforjesus]

@xxjudzonxx

i was a born again christian all my life, prayer doesn't work nor do the words of jesus who says if you believe in me you can move mountains and do greater works then he did but like i said no amputees have ever been healed in his name i guess no on really believes in god an no one has faith because this is all you need.

so my question do you believe with all your heart do you believe jesus words with all your heart if yes heal an amputee.

[Domzdream]

@noproofforjesus

Cool. Good for you bro. What made you realise that there is no god at all.

Myself, I was a Roman Catholic, later to be reborn. All silly piffle to me.

[noproofforjesus]

@xxjudzonxx so does open mind mean believe things without any proof. if so no thank you, i like reality much better. funny how Christians say god is unknowable because a brains cant fathom him but in the same breath will tell you they know this god personally and will tell you all about him what he likes what he doesn't like. you cant say both things they are mutually exclusive. to be unknowable and to have detailed knowledge of a thing is ridiculous

[noproofforjesus]

@xxjudzonxx

jesus came down to earth right please prove one he was god please show me all the extra biblical writings about jesus from people who saw him durring his life. and i did say extra biblical those who wanted to spread this myth are not reliable. thats not how history works and i have read 2 books by bart d erhman on the subject.

you say he healed people in font of people but you cant name one of these hundreds of people who saw this. not one traveler wrote of him, no one.

[lizazoon]

@noproofforjesus Furthermore his missionary, par excellence, Paul, never mentions any miracle at all. Isn`t that a bit strange when it such a conversion tool.

[noproofforjesus]

@lizazoon how is pauls words any different from Mohammad's word they both say they say and heard something that know one else heard or saw and people believed them so what. there are tons of people in every religion that believe the words of people they never meet. this just shows that the mass are easily swayed to believe crazy stories. if your going by how many Christians there are in the world showing its truthfulness then get ready to change religions.

[VarialProductions]

A 13th chord in a symphony?

[Warsel]

Thelonious symphonics maybe =)

[cjunk351]

I agree, God is immaterial, invisible and out side of space and time...ie Non existent.

[kombajndosalatek]

if THAT'S THE WAY you define existance..

so.. e.g. truth doesn't exist..

[cjunk351]

Truth still exists its just that the truth is your god does not.

Like it or not, thats life

[kombajndosalatek]

WOW. You are SO SMART...

Don't care about arguments "deal with it!"

seriously, man.. don't watch these clips- you don't understand a bit of it..

[cjunk351]

I understand them more than you probably ever will. :)

What has upset you? That someone knows your god does not exist and says so out loud?? Deal with it

[kombajndosalatek]

ok seriously.

i dont give a shit about what u think. DEAL with it ;]

YES- I DON'T CARE!

I', just so surprised that u think you're soo smart and don't use any arguments, just repeat like mantra "deal with it" "God doesn't exist"

I'm really tired of theese no-God belivers- dumbest religion on earth

DEAL WITH iT!

[cjunk351]

LOL.

peace

[hwut]

u mad

[hwut]

Truth doesn't really exist.. It is a subjective human notion which has no place in an objective view of our universe. Just like God, it doesn't *actually exist.

[kombajndosalatek]

LOL :D

[watty024]

that's not true.

[JohnDoeBand1]

@cjunk351

hahaha

[dwheel39]

@cjunk351 so this would apply to "dark matter and energy" as well then..guess it doesn't exist :) No one has ever observed dark matter but assume it exists by the effects on the galaxies. How can something scientists can't even observe constitute over 80% of the matter in the known universe??? In the same way we see the obvious "effects" of God's existence in nature, intelligence at every turn. To say no higher intelligence exists is absurd.

[cjunk351]

@dwheel39 Actually, there is no evidence whatsoever for intelligent design

[dwheel39]

@cjunk351 are you serious? Do you know how silly that sounds, seeing that you're invoking reason and attempting to use "intelligence" to refute an intelligent origin for your intelligence. So if there is no intelligent source, or origin, for intelligence, then how on earth can your reasoning be valid?!! seriously ..think about that. No knee jerk reactions you picked up from some favorite atheist of yours, but seriously ponder this and take your time. :)

[andyrooney11]

DID THAT ASSHOLE IN THE PURPLE JACKET SWALLOW A "STUPID" PILL BEFORE SHOWING UP AT THE DEBATE?!!!! He keeps arguing nonsense and ignoring Shermer's question. In this part of the video he spends the first few minutes talking about how Atheists can't prove that God doesn't exist....HEY ASSHOLE SHERMER ALREADY SAID HE DOESN'T KNOW AND YOU DON'T EITHER SO WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU ARGUING A POINT THAT SHERMER DID NOT MAKE?!!!

[npotts89]

simply because he believes in God does not make him an A**hole nor does it make him stupid. if you want to notice, Schermer never answered a single question but danced around it the entire debate, simply because Jacoby didn't answer 1 question you cannot validate Schermers ignorance through the entirety.

[andyrooney11]

I'll pose a question that every religious person likes to avoid...what IF Shermer, Hitchens, Dawkins, Darwin are all wrong about Evolution and the Big Bang...what is the case for God? You really have no hard evidence other than your faith...which is fine for you but for people like me faith is (to paraphrase Hitchens) the absence of logic and reason. You are believing in something with no proof and you are happy doing that. That may be ok for some people but I think that is delusional. GL :)

[TooDrunkToCare808]

An Astrologer!!! Thats what his debating reminds me of!

[jamesblond0069]

Shermer clearly wins this debate hands down. Jacobys arguments my sound intelligent but deep down its so fucking stupid! Jacoby is a complete moron. In debates between atheist and theist, the Atheist ALWAYS winALWAYS!!! Why? Because of evidence, logic. and common sense. Something that theists DONT have.

[npotts89]

well, if all theists don't have this...doesn't that make you have exhaustive knowledge of ALL theists? which i don't think you have.

[Thatonedude917]

Broad, sweeping statements usually aren't accurate. There are theists that have logic and common sense (no evidence), but they don't apply this logic and common sense to their religion. They simply can't, if they did they would eventually become unconvinced of their religion. That's what happened with me.

[npotts89]

o, i'm sure there are some out there. and there is a lot of evidence that can sway many people, such as Lee Strobel, Antony Flew, C.S. Lewis...etc. and C.S. Lewis for example, was one that expounded upon Logic and that is the very thing that brought him to believing in God in the first place.

now, i don't want to debate, that's what Jacoby and Schermer are for...and i don't want to force anything to you, but you should read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis, very deep philosophical book!

[jamesblond0069]

I already read these books that you're talking about. I still wasn't convinced by their arguments. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Their books, on the outside, may sound "intelligent" but deep down inside, when you really think about it, it's bullshit. Thanks for trying through.

[npotts89]

the only reason that it doesn't make sense is simply because you don't seek answers, you just want to prove that God doesn't exist rather than actually knowing if He does or not. you really don't want God to exist, that is why it doesn't make sense. simply.

they were books written by people who were atheists and have much more knowledge and wisdom than you and I combined, and they wrote books for us to understand what has been given to them.

[jamesblond0069]

Wrong again pal. I did search for answers and I REALLY wanted some or any gods to exist. Unfortunately, reality doesn't seem to give me any evidence to back it up. Since you know how to search for god, why don't YOU tell me where I can find your god. I bet you wouldn't know it either. You're just delusional. Unless you can point me to a TANGIBLE and IRREFUTABLE evidence of a real god, don't even bother replying to this message. You're just wasting my time. Books don't count as evidence. ok?

[busyutube]

we always think that gods ways are like our ways,but be careful because all the things we do we will be liable when we face him,i encourage you to SEEK God..atheist thought they won when jesus was crucified on the cross.but to god it was a victory

[jamesblond0069]

Whatever dude!

[Shutitup18]

I respect your belief, but it doesn't mean it's the "right" way to believe. You are thoroughly mistaken in that regard; thinking your way is the only and right way.

[leeroynaggins]

By what method...??

If GOD created everything... how did "he" (does that pronoun have any meaning on that scale) do it?

[a300pilotster]

does this jacoby idiot ever answer a question?

[dadabuk123]

Sure God, or anyone else for that matter, couldn't make "loud silence." But neither could a Being reasonably be said to exist "outside of space" (picture that).

[armageo]

O_o You're right! lol Doesnt even look like a girl.. XD

LOL wat am I doing naked ONline at this time?>?? i have no idea! BU

[maikeru01]

Jacoby is right about one thing. "GOD NEVER CAME INTO BEING."

[NMFUntouchable]

You can't apply multiple dimensions to euclidian geometry... how is he qualified to talk about string theory? What a jackass.

[r4m0s1985]

jacoby should defend his faith in his god and when i said his god i refer to christian religion, in that way shermer would had millions of arguments to prove that religion is complety bullshit, jacoby stand in front of people saying that he belives in the bible, and after shermer point he saids that he only belive in a supreme being.

i think is ok now :D

[r4m0s1985]

jacoby should defend you his faith his god and when i said his god i refer to crhistian religion, in that way shermer would had millions of arguments to prove that religion is complety bullshit, jacoby stand in front of people saying taht he belives in the bible, and after shermer point he saids that he only belives in a supreme being.

and sorry for my inglish is not very good :P

[DagnirGlaurunga]

Description box: "Douglas' clear and incisive arguments for the existence of God are persuasive." Even if he says so himself. I mean, there's pride in your work and there's arrogance.

/obscure?

[obiwanjayco]

he didn't write his own description, you idiot.

his web manager did.

[DagnirGlaurunga]

Wow, he's got his own web manager? Even a forum? Amazing.

You missed the Gervais reference, buddy.

Btw, do you happen to know why all the ghost accounts I talk to behave like trolls?

[jnrosemas]

It's always the same: Anytime our current level of understanding about existence, the universe (or perhaps even multiple universes), or the cosmos is incomplete or we reach the limits of our scientific knowledge, someone comes along and injects a God. The alternative is to humbly say, "we just don't know at this point in time." And sooner or later, when the gaps in our knowledge are filled, these same people just leap on out to the next fringe of science. There's a lesson to be learned here!

[pierramadre]

Why does he think hes qualified to critic the multiverse theory? someone should pull him up on that

[Thetickler3000]

RustyIronloins your dumb. Pahkasika, Douglas Jacoby has a degree from Harvard, Trilingual, and possibly one of the best speakers I know. Now if your talking about Michael Shermer I agree!

[claschxtreme]

Having a degree from Harvard doesn't help when he says something like "atheism is self-refuting". If that were true it would logically mean that the believing in the existence of god is absolutely true since the opposite "is" inherently false.

It takes religion for someone intelligent to say really stupid things.

What most educated and informed atheist say is that is not possible nor necessary to disprove the existence of god.

[brookside1]

again..".extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.."

[seagadyou]

Jacoby speaks well and seems like a nice guy...he doesn't really seem to have thought this through though does it?

[Satan266]

Jacoby is right in his last point, if a theory cannot be tested then it's not really a scientific theory. Unfortunately for Jacoby, the existence of God cannot be tested either.

[RustyIronloins]

Jacoby smart? That first argument just doesn't work at all.

[anishray]

it surprises me that someone as clever as Jacoby can succumb to such common logical fallacies.

i want to see someone with a Phd in philosophy argue the existence of god. that would be an interesting debate.

[Pahkasika0]

That guy knows a jack shit.

[thricebannedatheist]

"He's not governed to the laws of physics". How convenient! The theist always wins by default by saying that "you have to explain where the first cause came from, I don't".

[MakerInMotion]

Jacoby may be wrong, but he's doing a good job of defending his fallacious point of view. Just making it to the end of a debate with Shermer without collapsing into a puddle of goop is impressive enough.

[mil1981es]

Because he's invisible, that reinforces his existence...?

There is mathematical evidence of the possibility of a multiverse, yet none that the first law of thermodynamics can be broken.

[halneufmille]

I feel so embarrassed for Jacoby.

[phippsed]

Jacoby makes the point about how the physical constants of the universe are unlikely to be the what they are just by chance. THis seems like a crude leap of faith to me. Maybe it isn't by chance,maybe the constants are all interdependent in some way. Since this is the only universe we know we have no evidence the physical constants could be anything other than what they are. If an alternate universe could exist we obviously would have no knowledge of it.

[abhijeet1989]

Why the fuck does every one think that atheist propose chance? Evolution isn't chance. It's a a slow development in the organisms. They divide from a singular anaerobic organisms to complex organisms of what we are now. There is no "chance" involved

[watty024]

the answer to can God make a rock so heavy that He couldn't move it? is yes.

1) there is nothing God cannot do.

2) how heavy can you make a rock? even if God made a rock that weighed infinity ( see answer one ), He could still move it ( see answer one ).

what do y'all think of that one?

feel free to use it douglas, just credit me as watty.

peace.

[watty024]

i mean no. i don't know. this setup sets a limit on how heavy this rock would be. it supposes that there is a definite heaviness that could exist where god could not move it. but as i said before, even if he made it weigh infinity, he could still move it. so, the question becomes, can god make something weigh more than infinity? the answer is no. does that mean god is not omnipotent? no. once you say he can make a rock weigh infinity, AND still move it, the question becomes moot.

[abhijeet1989]

You can't argue an absolute thing such as god with idea which are so relative... As I said earlier...Hitchens or Dawkins would be able to provide a better case because they stand at better point of argument against this debate

[abhijeet1989]

Shermer didn't produce enough arguments...There are much more arguments that could be produced against theism...plus why is an agnostic debating a thesist ...What is the point...Agnostics are the most middle ground people in this topic and Dr. Shermer is wrong for this debate...Dawkins or Hitchens would provide better counter arguments

[halneufmille]

Based on his arguments, Shermer is as agnostic or atheist as Dawkins, Harris and the like. He says he is as agnostic about God as about any other gods.

[abhijeet1989]

Exactly, my point being. You can't debate religion with agnosticism.

[xhassxed]

This guy goes off on the most random tangents. Stick to the point and maybe you will have a cogent argument. He almost purposefully does this I feel to confuse people that understand agnostic/atheist viewpoints far better than he himself does.

[Flyer2345]

I don't mean to discourage anybodies thought or discussion here. But it would be unrealistic to assume that either of these men are not smart.your not on that podium. 2000 years plus of thought have revealed a lot that I probably haven't looked into. I think a misconception concerning this debate is that as modern people we have all the answers. I just ask that you don't speak as if your word will last the test of time like the bible has, or the works of aristotle, socrates and kant.

[asonjdj]

This guy is not smart.Its one thing to argue for some deistic god,thats NOT all knowing and all powerful,but to say there is an omniscient,omnipotent,and all good god is a ridiculous position and contradictions are easily found.Natural disasters,disease,child abuse,the old testament and so on.If you cant see it you may be blind.

[quillini]

Mr. Jacoby, don't you know that atheists do not claim to know the nonexistence of God? We simply don't see any good reason that God does, should, or could exist. Just like your examples of logically invalid statements, or what you called "necessary impossibilities", the very idea of God is logically invalid. You don't have to scan the depths of the universe to know that the idea of a being that is both omnipotent and good is logically incompatible with the idea of an absolute good and evil.

[superfisto]

Why is Jacoby talking about atheism? Shermer is an agnostic!

Why is Jacoby talking attacking an atheist position which even no atheist holds? Nobody claims absolute knowledge of the universe.

[robotaholic]

i am tired of empty words, "spirituality", or "immaterial"- made up words that have no meaning except what people make up- I'm tired of religion getting a free pass.

[dexytao]

Getting a free pass?  What do you mean? How about being humble and eager to learn by finding out what those words actually mean instead of complaining what you dont know?

[JeffMacDougall]

He means he's tired of it being taboo to criticize religion. We get to be critical of every other unprovable idea but religion gets special treatment.

[zakiechan]

OK so let me get this straight... he first claims that God is outside of the universe, then says its bad to conclude that there isnt a God in the universe? Apologetic shell games, thats all this is.

[dexytao]

What Jacoby means is that God is not bound by the universe (or anything material) but, God is still present in the universe.

[zakiechan]

So God isnt transcendent of space and time such as most theologians claim (like WL Craig)?

[JeffMacDougall]

Which is the same as saying nothing at all.

[andrewcameron]

It's not nonsense to build a bulldozer big enough to get the job done. I've seen bulldozers built by people that can move rocks that are too big for people to move on their own.

[reneekatz]

Listen to what he says 6 minutes in . . .

[andrewcameron]

You mean where he basically just says. String theory? I don't understand it so it must not be true and we might as well give up and stop trying and just go the easy way and Hail... I mean praise god?

[Kergillian]

He spent a lot of time saying nothing at all.

He is an eloquent speaker, but his logic is out of whack.

[redchango]

Aren't we past this atheist strawman yet? Everyone's an atheist, in respect to other people's religions.

[eruagnostic]

Ohh... Puh-leeze...

No you make a positive claim that no where in the universe is there evidence for that there no where in the universe is an omnipotent being. How would YOU know?

And how would I know that no where in the universe is there evidence for that there's no evidence for that there's no omnipotent being.

And so forth...

*sigh*