Does Calvinism STOP Evangelism Or Actually Do it? [1of2] (James White)

[polopowers1]

I've been an evangelist for over thirty years. Started out evangelizing in hell's kitchen New York the South Bronx, Harlem etc. The last fifteen years at universitys and some over seas at missions etc. I'm a full beiever in election a five pointer. When I go I have this determination. Knowing God has His elect chosen out of the world I can by affection from Christ get privilege to see God save. Being part of the transition of His Word is a priviliege. So I endure all things for elect's sake.

[TeaPartier22]

Molinism, rather than Calvinism or Arminianism, is the correct theology, in my view. It's so obvious once it is studied, that this is the correct doctrine.

[RomansGalatians]

Compatiblism is God working through us. It is an essential Christian doctrine.

[RomansGalatians]

Thus, for the Arminian, we have a personal responsibility to not sin, and God pays our past sins if we ask. Two different entities, God and me, with two different responsibilities.

But the Bible shows that God WORKS IN AND THROUGH US. It's not as if God is distinct and acting INDEPENDENTLY. Rather God acts in us, thus we act. If man is able to live a holy life on his own, he doesn't need a savior. If personal responsibility is not compatible with God acting in us, how could we live holy?

[RomansGalatians]

Arminians don't really believe in man's INABILITY to live a holy life on his own. They only believe in an inability to pay back for past sins; kinda like a spiritual Bankruptcy. You get a fresh start, but you have PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to not fall into debt again. If you do BZZZ, you need to go to the alter again and get re-saved.

They do not view Personal Responsibility as COMPATIBLE with God's grace. They view the SELF as distinct and "free" from God. God does His thing, we do ours.

[KiraWei1]

I wonder what he thinks of simple "4 Spiritual Laws" evangelism. Anyone know?

[RockSprites]

@KiraWei1 He probably thinks it is extremely flawed. I know I do. It puts grace before law, rather than law before grace. Therefore, law negates grace. We use it in Campus Crusade and its really horrible what happens to our evangelism and preaching as a result. I have never seen such a weak, man-centered, 2 watt presentation of the Gospel. I uploaded videos about my experience with it. They are not very good, but I think I made my point. I was so aggravated after a retreat with them.

[KiraWei1]

@RockSprites Wow. Yeah, I that is where I heard of that evangelism method. I don't care too much for it. It does capture Christianity I guess, but I feel like it can let Christianity seem like a feel-good fairytale instead of an intellectually honest understanding of the world in which we live. If was never quite taught Christianity, I doubt that it is what would have converted me.

[RockSprites]

@KiraWei1 Yeah, basically, after the crusades, they have you count up all the people that you supposedly shared the Gospel with, and every body that made a "decision" for Jesus, whatever that means. Then they tally it up and say: good job guys! That's 1,000 new brothers and sisters. And everybody cheers. I felt miserable at Big Break because I know that most of those people did not repent and have no understanding of the Gospel. How can they? Most kids sent to preach don't even know it.

[CHECKrayrobionson]

I don't actually believe in predestination. If I did, I know I have the greater fate than the ridiculous ones. I just know the multiverse is not different universes. It was the COPIES of our own in different time streams

[CHECKrayrobionson]

The conflict of non calvinist to Christianity is this so called Multiverse idea. A very common hindu eastern cult just like reincarnation etc...

I woke up with maybe a lucid dream and felt as though I've changed my fate, I switched from a parallel universe to the other universe of the same genisis. It felt I have 2 fates than one then I switched over rather than linear. That again felt like 6 HOURS of dream over say 2 hours of real time.

[MODERATECALVINISM]

2 Corinthians 13:11

* Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.

[yarrw]

We Presbyterians are called the frozen chosen. Maybe this would be more appropriate; Matt 8:22 "leave the dead to bury their dead...."

[530HELP]

are lord ch spurgeon and calvin lol

[rkg62976]

Eze.33:11-- "...I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live..."

Arminians use this as a "proof" that God has not predestined certain to salvation. He "tries" to save as many as possible. However, they fail to read the context. The context is EVANGELISM. The prophet was told to warn Israel. The is a great example of God's PRESCRIPTIVE WILL. That God can command ALL to repent, but only effectually enable His elect.

[TFarache]

Do Calvinists ever discuss predestination with the people they are witnessing to? When I was in a Presbyterian Evangelism Explosion team, we were not instructed to use any distinctively Calvinist concepts when sharing the gospel. So I am wondering if it is an "in-house" type of doctrine.

[asimpleinstrument]

I'm a born-again Christian and believe that TULIP is proven by the Scriptures, however, I'm willing to say that I've been more involved in evangelism than most.

[MarjorieBakre]

2/2 Religion is reqd. to foster spirituality but due to tits numerous labels, ends up doing the exact opposite: creating divisions, violence, and making people more egoistic, inconsiderate, materialistic without limit, ..... As a I step in refining ALL religions into a single medium of spirituality, DISCOURAGE HAIRSPLITTING SECTARIANISM AND FUNDAMENTALISM BY MERGING VARIOUS SECTS, FOR AN EVENTUAL A RELIGIOUS STASIS IN THE WORLD IN WHICH ALL RELIGIONS COEXIST W/O. THE CANCER OF EVANGELISM.

[MarjorieBakre]

Just describe Calvinism in plain and practical terms with examples from day to day example. People will make their own inference and try and obtain an answer to the question u pose, to the satisfaction of their reasoned analysis. As far as I know, Calvinism is one more fundamentalist Xian sect and it has a right to exist like the others preaching outworn nonsense in this age of spirituality visavis mateiralism.

[WhyRyouStupid]

hmmm....there is no creator / god.

If there was a creator amongst us, it's highly unlikely his name would Calvin, Allah, Yahweh, Jesus, Brigham Young, Ron Hubbard Jehovah, Martin Luther or anything else familiar.

Because all of these people have lived and died. Thereby proving they weren't a creator. or a deity, or a divinity.

These people may have developed a following but none of them were divine, or supreme in their being.

They were just people who lived, and then subsequently died.

[insaner169]

when did Yahweh or Jehovah die? and while Jesus did die, dont forget He also resurrected..

[LOLFunny687]

Arminianism is wrong to believe one can lose salvation(invoking works+ faith heresy)

The god of Calvinism is no better than a devil. The god of Calvinism is glorified by the death and damnation of his creation.

"...individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction." -John Calvin (Institutes of the Christian Religion)

(Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

[DeathRattleShakes]

Romans 9: 22 = What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

Prepare = 3. to manufacture, compound, or compose: to prepare a vessel of wrath.

Its right there man. He created vessels for destruction in order to show His wrath and power. Sounds EXACTLY like what Calvin said right there.

[LOLFunny687]

people are not born destined for eternal damnation to glorify God by their destruction.

"...individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction." -John Calvin (Institutes of the Christian Religion)

(Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

Pro 8:36 ..all they that hate me love death.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked..

connect the dots!!

[DeathRattleShakes]

EVERYTHING glorifies God. He doesn't take pleasure, but it still glorifies Him, and they were still PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION. The Greek word for "prepared" says: {kat-ar-tid'-zo}

1) to render, i.e. to fit, sound, complete 1a) to mend (what has been broken or rent), to repair 1a1) to complete 1b) to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust 1b1) to fit or frame for one's self, prepare 1c) ethically: to strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he ought to be

[LOLFunny687]

yes, prepared for destruction after they had already reprobated themselves.

God did not predestinate them before they were even born to be reprobated.

Rev 4:11 ..for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

notice present tense 'are'. 95%(unsaved) of Humans made by the calvinist God are created for the sole purpose of him getting pleasure out of their eternal damnation and suffering

[DeathRattleShakes]

That's not what the verse says. You are reading stuff into it.

I already told you, He DOESN'T get pleasure in desotrying the wicked. You're trying to prove one scripture wrong with another scripture. It says what it says. GOD made them the vessel of wrath, not themselves. It doesn't say, "They made themSELVES vessels of wrath."

Its ok bro nobody else accepts it. Christians were predestined to be Christians, reprobates were MADE to be destroyed. Forget man and what is fair to MAN, but GOD!

[LOLFunny687]

lol are you new to your reformed theology or somethin?

you need to learn what your theology teaches.

but I suggest you don't learn it, because it is poison and attacks God's true grace and sovereignty.

your theology teaches God made 95% of humanity so He can hate them and get pleasure out of it because its His 'sovereignty'

go to my channel and watch the 'Calvinism' playlist I have setup, 12 videos.

[DeathRattleShakes]

I'm not new, I just can't properly express myself with text, especially only 500 characters. Whatever man. This is not very fruitful to do this on freakin' youtube I dunno what I was thinking. K well peace in Christ and may you continually be sanctified in Him. Amen.

[cweb1776]

It's amazing to see all the arguments about different understandings of Scripture. It's actually a good thing to discuss these matters. The thing I see missing though is the call for all of us to be good Bereans (read Acts 17:10-15 if you don't understand what I mean). The important thing here is to let Scripture drive our understanding of God rather than reading Scripture through our own theological lenses. (suggested readings: Gen Ch1 through Ch 3; Gen 25; Mal 1:1-5; Romans 9) Enjoy!

[Terri3210]

Satan is working hard so you dont get saved today YOU COULD DIE THE DAY NO ALTAR CALL WAS GIVEN.. THATS A SATANIC PLAN BY DESIGN. Satan knows men will procrastinate so dont urge them let them B lax; soon their life time will run out & they will find themselves n hell

Calvinist believe most of you were made 4 hell.. they intend 2 help you get there.

Calvinist stand on the sideline rubbing their hands with glee each time NO ALTAR CALL is given & your life time is running out

SMELL THE TULIPS

[bikerdisciple]

Which passage in the Bible do we find an alter call? How about througout church history? Did they do alter calls and lead people thru sinner's prayers during the Great Awakening in the 1700s?

If your logic is true then there must be plenty of biblical and hsitorical evidence for altercalls, seeing how they are needed to see the mass come to Christ.

[MandoMohan]

TULIP is simply evil. Presbyterianism is dead

[MandoMohan]

White is full of gobbledegook. Heartless gobbledegook at that.

[AbdielAbiram]

Predestination is defeated by 2 Thess. 2:13-14, and John 3:16

[ghghes]

Actually, 2 Thess. 2:13-14 speaks of election, which is predestination.

John 3:16 - who can believe in the one, true GOD except HIS chosen people?

[WarrantedFaith]

Actually, when read in context, both of these passages TEACH predestination. You can even look up the Greek "Kosmos" (i.e. the word translated "world" in John 3:16) in Greek lexicons and find that they specifically cite John 3:16 as an example of when this word "Kosmos" (which has many usages in the Greek) actually refers SPECIFICALLY to BELIEVERS ONLY.

[SovereignShepherd]

That comment proves you know nothing about Calvinism or the bible. " Calvinist agree with John 3:16. The "whosoever" arguement is so weak and rediculous, it makes you sound ignorant of the subject. God gives those "whosoever" the ability to "believeth in Him. Whosoever is used to mean NOT ONLY THE JEWS but the Gentiles also. Understand all men does not mean every individual, it means Jews and Gentiles!

[GodgrlGomer]

In regard to expecting folk to coincide with what is in the Word, you should remove the log from your own eye before you point out the splinter in others'.

The mocker seeks wisdom and finds none,

but knowledge comes easily to the discerning.

Prov 13:6

Reckless words pierce like a sword,

but the tongue of the wise brings healing. Prov 12:18

Pride only breeds quarrels, but wisdom is found in those who take advice. Prov 13:10

Good day to you.

[replikantzero]

i would think it does not. we are seeking to enliven the elect. and we are commanded to do so. i wouldn't call myself a full blown calvinist as i would a presbyterian, so study and ministering is a way of life for me.

[NotYourTypicalNegro]

Would/did 'Calvinism' stop Jesus from evangelizing?

The answer to this question is the same for the question posed in this video.

[Riverfrog72]

Is Calvinism the reason no one preaches on how to be a better christian anymore? I can't find a church that believes you actually need to follow what Jesus taught.

Why would Jesus tell us we have to forgive each other or the father wouldn't forgive us, if we don't have to actually do these things. I have had christians actually tell me that if someone doesn't turn from sin they will get what they deserve. I was taught we Cant want justice or condemn anyone or we would condemn ourselves.

[LaneCh]

I think you're confusing Calvinism with other theological terms. There certainly isn't an abundance of Calvinism running rampant in the modern church. :)

[SpartanOstrich15]

You are meant to follow what Jesus taught, but if you are saved and fall short of God you can still go to heaven. You can always become better.

[Zadok83]

I actually agree with a lot of what you were saying but, I don't agree with your interpretation of Romans ch 1. Why would Paul need to "evangelize" people who are, in your view, already Christians?

As a Christian, I know that the Word is constantly teaching me new things, even when I read things I've read before.

Christ came to spread the Gospel to unbelievers. (Mark 2:15-17)

I agree that it is good for Christians to hear the Gospel, but their main goal is to preach it to non Christians.

[directedchaos]

Predestination nullifies the point of evangelizing imo.

[LaneCh]

Well, I guess it's your opinion vs. Way of the Master's director of the Ambassador's Academy, Evangelism Team, and all the saints throughout history like Whitfield, Toplady, Spurgeon, and Brainard. I think I'll stick with the latter.... no offense to your unsubstantiated opinion, of course.

[directedchaos]

"I guess it's your opinion"

Is it just a battle of opinions? Let's go through a proof. First, definitions:

1) An action has EFFECT towards a goal if the goal is closer having done the action vs having not done the action.

2) The goal of evangelism is to save souls.

3) Predestination states that God already knows who will and will not be saved.

Now, using these definitions it's easy to prove that evangelizing in a predestination universe is fruitless: you cannot save any more people.

[LaneCh]

Actually, yes, your opinion is just that as I provided ministries who's primary focus is evangelizing the lost and have heads who are Calvinists. It basically comes down to your opinion vs. facts.

This strikes me: "3) Predestination states that God already knows who will and will not be saved."

Are you an open theist (believe that God doesn't know the future).

[directedchaos]

"I provided ministries who's primary focus is evangelizing the lost and have heads who are Calvinists."

I'm dealing with the core teachings, not their behavior. Let's take the simplest example imaginable: you're faced with someone who doesn't believe in Christ at all. You can:

A) Preach to him.

B) Not preach to him.

Now, predestination holds that this person is -- guaranteed by God -- to be either:

1) Saved

2) Not saved

(A) to (1) is preaching to the choir. (A) to (2) is useless.

[LaneCh]

Um, you're initial comment was, "Predestination nullifies the point of evangelizing imo." So I provided you with examples that nullified your point and showed where prominent ministries witness to the lost as their primary function but still hold to the doctrines of grace. Now your contention is, "I'm dealing with the core teachings, not their behavior."

Tell me, "directedchaos", if you knew that someone was not elect, would you still evangelize to them?

[directedchaos]

"if you knew that someone was not elect, would you still evangelize to them?"

What is the point of evangelizing, again, if not to save souls? If the soul cannot be saved, then, it is a fruitless exercise.

"you're not courageous enough to even declare what it is you believe"

Most of my beliefs are irrelevant to this discussion. Let me confess this, however: given that there is an all-powerful sentient creator (God), it seems He *must* know the future, and thus predestination. Satisfied?

[LaneCh]

Yes, thanks for clearing that up. There are people on here who are open theists, but seeing that you don't hold to that heresy, I'd love to discuss this with you more.

The point is this for evangelism, and let me know if this makes sense. If it doesn't, I'll try to explain it better.:

If God truly has predestined people and they are elect, we don't know who those people are. If we knew, there'd be no reason to evangelize. (cont...)

[LaneCh]

Spurgeon said that if God had painted a yellow stripe down the back of all the elect, we could give up preaching and go start lifting up shirtails. The point is that no one knows who the elect are so we're to preach the Gospel to every creature.

I believe these two videos will clear some things up for you with this:

/watch?v=U0tAfrPlNq8

/watch?v=j-qriJxQmws

[directedchaos]

It seems the reason to evangelize are:

1) God commands it.

2) God uses it to bring in the elect.

3) It is a privilege to be used this way.

4) It makes society's culture more Christian.

5) It gives the reprobate a chance to be saved, so their rejection can be used as justification for their damnation.

Let me know if I missed any.

[directedchaos]

(1) is clearly sufficient; however, we would like to understand why.

(2) is similar to (1) in that it passes the burden of explanation back on God; that is, God wants us to do it because he wants us to do it.

(3) is irrelevant except as affirmation of Christian following for (1) -- it is not about privilege, but salvation.

(4) seems valid.

(5) seems invalid. It is unnecessary to build a case against the damned when they are damned before birth anyway.

[directedchaos]

So what I'm left with is that a Calvinist should preach because it makes the culture more Christian. If that is the case, I think the definition of evangelism should be changed -- it is not about saving souls.

[directedchaos]

"Are you an open theist (believe that God doesn't know the future)."

My beliefs don't matter; this is about Calvinism which holds predestination -- in particular, unconditional election. This seems to nullify the purpose of evangelism.

[LaneCh]

"My beliefs don't matter;"

So you're courageous enough to speak about something you obviously don't know enough about seeing as I provided you examples that refute your position without you having responded to them, but you're not courageous enough to even declare what it is you believe. Interesting...

[AllForYeshua]

(Predestination nullifies the point of evangelizing imo.)

The interpretation of predestination by Calvinism is what nullifies evengelism and a great deal of OT & NT scripture. You have been correct in your posts. There are many people out there who worship the teachings of man rather than scripture...Romans 1 in real time.

[LaneCh]

You know what? You're right. Here's a great example of what you're talking about, too.:

/watch?v=3PQ6gMDaE5Y

[LaneCh]

Face it, you don't like Calvinism, you're pretty ignorant of it, and you don't want to deal with the truth of the many assertions that you put on these videos. You just merely want to state them. It's pretty pathetic the more one understands your position.

[AllForYeshua]

(Face it, you don't like Calvinism, you're pretty ignorant of it, and you don't want to deal with the truth of the many assertions that you put on these videos. You just merely want to state them. It's pretty pathetic the more one understands your position.)

Yes, I am not a worshiper of man, but of the Lord and His Word. You continue to push many toward the teachings of mere man, saying Calvinism this and Calvinism that. When you stop quoting man over scripture, we will then be in agreement.

[LaneCh]

Where have I quoted a man? Please give a reference so that everyone won't think your presenting a straw man argument.

[AllForYeshua]

Your entire site is based on the teachings of many Calvinist. Those are men. Drop your text books and let's look at what scripture says and not what man says. Just the title "Calvinist" is more than enough to see where you obtain your wisdom. Jesus is coming back for His Bride who seek Him through His Word with their whole hearts, not those who try to understand Him through "fan magazines", or in other words, secondary sources. You wouldn't marry one who sought you in that manner, nor will He.

[LaneCh]

I'm sorry, but I'll give you one more chance to prove your assertion true. I'd strongly advise that you do so this time.

[AllForYeshua]

All along the left hand side of your site, where you are quoting man and little to no scripture.

[AllForYeshua]

"My advice to young Calvinists is to learn your theology from the historic mainstream (Calvinist authors, not from blogs and discussion forums on the internet."

- Phil Johnson)

Here is a posting that you have placed under your name on your site. Look at the background picture that you have chosen on your site. Where is Jesus?

Ban me, or let's deal with scripture as written in His Holy Word, the Bible. I'm more than open to discussion. Are you able to do so without quoting man or banning me?

[LaneCh]

I'm sorry, I thought that you were implying that I used them as authoritative not merely their opinions.  Obviously, though, you suffer from hypocrisy because you state that I shouldn't be quoting the words of mere men, but you, a mere man, share words of opinion here that are meant to be taken as authoratative. (cont...)

[LaneCh]

Not only that, but you take a part of my profile, ask where the Scripture is, and because I don't riddle it with Scripture, you hold me for it yet your comments isolated here contain no Scripture. Classic. Thanks for proving that you're a hypocrite. I didn't even have to try hard with that one.

[AllForYeshua]

(Obviously, though, you suffer from hypocrisy because you state that I shouldn't be quoting the words of mere men, but you, a mere man, share words of opinion here that are meant to be taken as authoratative.)

Proof of who your attention is continually drawn to is all over your site, and it is not scripture nor Jesus. As a matter of fact, not opinion, the name of Jesus is hardly noted on your site, but Calvinism sure is. Put down your texts and let's discuss the Word of God.

[LaneCh]

I've rarely had to tell someone this before, but, AFY, you're a moron. I don't mean that in the pejorative sense of the word. I mean that in it's strict definition.

moron: a person of subnormal intelligence

You ask me to put down texts which basically means put down arguments yet then you want to discuss texts without arguments? Your ignorance is astounding. Scripture is mentioned all over this site and it is dealt with. Since God breathed Scripture, Jesus is all over this site.

[LaneCh]

You're now blocked. I have little time to compensate for the intellectual accumulation of a 12 year old. I've read your arguments with skalapunk before, too, and it's just all more of the same. It will save us all headache and time not to have to reply to your inane statements which are merely your personal opinion and not Scripture every time you feel the need to make it on the same authority as Scripture. Get over yourself and your hypocrisy. It's pretty blatant.

[GodgrlGomer]

You have shown your true colours here. Name calling, teasing, not answering questions. You are the one who needs to take a good look at themselves, repent & renew your own mind absorbing yourself in the Word.

Something to think about before you get on your soap box defending Calvanism...

Would Jesus call Himself a Calvanist?

Think about it.

[LaneCh]

Jesus was into name calling, too. Do you think he was being flippant when he called people "sons of vipers" and "foxes"? I know. That's Bible talk. I apologize for expecting that people actually somehow coincide with what's taught in there (sarcasm).

"Would Jesus call Himself a Calvanist?"

No, and I wouldn't either if there was another name that identified what I believe in soteriology. How about just call me Q-Bert for now on. We'll both know what I'm talking about. It'll be our secret.

[GodgrlGomer]

And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers;

he will crush [b] your head, and you will strike his heel."

Gen 3:5

He wasnt calling names in order to be mean or exhault Himself, for this is in itself sin. He was simply exposing the Darkness in which they resided & saying exactly what they were - The Viper's Children.

There is a big difference.

A fool gives full vent to his anger, but a wise man keeps himself under control. Proverbs 29:11

[LaneCh]

"At that very hour some Pharisees came and said to him, "Get away from here, for Herod wants to kill you." And he said to them, "Go and tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I finish my course."

- Jesus Christ

(Luk 13:31-32)

Yeah, sounded real hospitable to Herod there. Please remove your head from the sand. Not only that but you imply that I was "calling names in order to be mean or exhault (exalt) Himself". Prove it.

[hasani42]

no Jesus wouldnt call Himself a calvinist since that terminology didnt exist, neither did John Calvin. Whether you call it Calvinism, Augustinianism, or Johannianism, whats that got to do with the teachings being biblical or not. that's like the antitrinitarian saying the doctrine of the trinity isnt biblical because the term Trinity is nowhere in the Bible. Im sure Jesus wouldnt call Himself arminian, or Baptist, or pentacostal, or methodist, or presbyterian either.

[realbifter]

hypothetical question here guys..........

my big brother says christians cant be hardcore,, is he correct?

[jonwlowe]

16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age

[sidburnd1]

so we only evangelize to believers? this makes no sense. why is he so demanding of reformed theology? why not original theology? the reform helped us get a lot of catholic teachings out, but the original christians from antioch were still teaching the original theology the whole time! no one is saying you cant choose which shirt youll wear today...this total depravity insists that we as men cannot choose God at all. the election has to do with foreknowledge, not picking and choosing.

[LaneCh]

We evangelize to everyone because we don't know who the elect are. It might help to actually know the position you're critiquing next time you set out to do so. You wouldn't look as foolish.

[sidburnd1]

white was saying the word evangelize was to preach the congregation of believers. what was that statement for?

[LaneCh]

Did he say that the word "evangelize" was to preach SOLELY to the congregation of believers?

[sidburnd1]

Thats what I got from it.

[LaneCh]

Listen, if I had asked what you got from it, then a reply to that is what I would have expected to receive. I didn't, though. What I've asked you is, "Did he say that the word "evangelize" was to preach SOLELY to the congregation of believers?"

[sidburnd1]

No. But do I have to say 'elect' every time I refer to those in 1 Timothy 2 v3-6? : For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time. It seems to me like God wants ALL to be saved.

[LaneCh]

He does want all men to be saved: all of a particular group. He doesn't want any to perish, either: any of a particular group.

[sidburnd1]

why didn't the bible make it clear then, and say too all the 'elect', instead of 'all men'? do I not 'get it' because the bible I read is not in greek anymore? when God uses the word 'men' does it not mean all 'men' in other verses that aren't talking about salvation?

[LaneCh]

It says it in other places. If we take all of the Bible in its context and allow for Scripture to interpret Scripture, we find that this interpretation is consistent whereas one that does not hold to Reformed soteriology simply ignores or explains away passages like John 6:35-45 and Eph. 1 and 2. To say "all of a group" is a stronger argument than the counter argument I've heard which is basically, "predestination and election don't mean what they say."

[sidburnd1]

predestination and election do mean what they say. predestination is based on God's foreknowledge and election simply means 'chosen'. Where does election reference itself to salvation? john 6:35-45 means that it is impossible to come to Christ without being drawn first. This doesn't exclude anyone, because he draws ALL MEN (not just the elect) sometime in their life (after his death on calvary).: John 12:32.

[LaneCh]

Does he raise everyone up to eternal life at the last day?

[YoungCalvinist08]

Which nutcase was tasered in the name of evangelism? Is that potentially life-threatening, from what I hear?

[LaneCh]

It was Ergun Caner. I'm not sure if he was standing on a stump at the time, though. :)

[YoungCalvinist08]

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaat? The huge guy from Liberty Mountain??? Are you sure this isn't one of those weird rumours like Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology made available free online...?

[corneloup81]

Hi Ive got some questions concerning calvinism ive only been a christian for a year, ive read the whole bible at least 3-4 times, no calvinists seem to be able to answer my questions they seem to only know a calvinistic dogma and not the whole bible, can you help me with several scriptures, ive searched commentaries but macarther skips these books and chapters and the same as other calvinistic commentaries

[YoungCalvinist08]

Well please do share these texts and let us see if we can help :)

[corneloup81]

1st i want to ask you do you know/read the whole bible, ill ask you a question, when the bible speaks of cleansed/washed/white garments does this represent righteousness

[YoungCalvinist08]

In Revelation, it speaks of white garments as being representative of the righteousness of the saints.

[corneloup81]

Rev 19:8

Rev 7:14 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of the great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

Zec 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy clothes, and stood before the Angel.

Garments or rainments are right throught the OT aswell would it be safe to say cleansed garments represent righteousness?

[YoungCalvinist08]

I would say yes.

[corneloup81]

Ok here is the first passage it says they have escaped the pollutions of the world, just to clear it up now it says they have, not tried, pretend or might have, but it says they have.

2Pe 2:20 For if they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the full knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and are again entangled, they have been overcome by these, their last things are worse than the first.

[repentsinners26]

Then it goes on to say they are like a washed sow returnig to the mire, greek definition of washed in this passage is cleansed garments exclusively, so they once HAD ESCAPED the pollutions of the world and HAD cleansed garments (righteousness), this does not fit into calvinism according to once saved always saved doctrine

2Pe 2:22 But the word of the true proverb has happened to them: The dog turning to his own vomit; and, The washed sow to wallowing in the mire.

[GillerMonster]

I don't get where we think that believing means we love Jesus and are saved. Washer cleared it up when he stated that even the Devil believes. And better yet he "knows",and still loves sin and hates God.

[pungadoo]

what is hyper calvinism

[LaneCh]

If you look on my profile page, there is a link to an article that describes it written by Phil Johnson. Also, if you go to my imeem page, there is an audio there by Tom Ascol discussing it and how it's not Calvinism. Hyper-Calvinism is heresy; orthodox Calvinism isn't.

[fourbyfourblazer]

Thanks for the good point on hyper-calvinism.

A really good DVD to buy is the "History & Theology of Calvinism" 2 DVD set. If you haven't watched you should get it. The first DVD had me trembling.

[LaneCh]

I was just watching that about 2 days ago for the "I lost count" time. It's a great primer for anyone who wants to learn about the Reformed position. It's also great for those who already are familiar with it.

[westminster1643]

fourbyfourblazer: You mentioned a DVD on LanCh's you tube site. The DVD was called 'History & Theology of Calvinism.' Where can I buy it? Thanks.

[anamasteos]

Dear LaneCh,

I couldn't sleep last night and I spent most the night praying. I told the lord my sins and ask for help to turn away from sins. I asked Jesus to reside in me even though I know I'm not worthy. I still have many questions though, like

Why do we need to ask Jesus into our heart when he (Jesus-God) already owns everything anyhow? Shouldn't it be God calling me and not the other way since I am the offender.

Doesn't God write on the heart of folks saving by grace alone? I want peace.

[LaneCh]

I'm going to pm you. I have an obligation tonight so it may be first thing in the morning, but I will pm you, Lord willing. I want to spend some time and give you thorough responses because I know what that's like, and I won't be able to tonight. I think this sermon by Paul Washer will help you in the meantime, though:

tinyurl(.)com/556xp7

(cont...)

[LaneCh]

He really starts hitting on some of the things you're asking about halfway through like "Why do we need to ask Jesus into our heart when he (Jesus-God) already owns everything anyhow?" I've prayed for you several times already today and will continue. It sounds like the Lord IS calling you, dear. :) I have some things I'll send you then, too. Take care tonight and watch that sermon if you're able to.

[anamasteos]

Thank-you LaneCh,

I have many questions, it makes me difficult, however, I believe that seeking out truth requires that I must question to obtain truth and even then, I'm still inclined to "go with my gut" even though guts are gross.

[LaneCh]

I understand. I was speaking with someone about the issue of being convinced of something yesterday. I don't think someone can be convinced of something without having all the sides presented and denouncing the ones that are in error so I commend you questioning to obtain truth. I didn't comment yesterday because we had to leave at a different time than I thought, but I should be back in town Monday. I'll pm you then. Take care for now.

[RedBeetle]

Calvinism stops misevangelization. For example, Calvinism doesn't teach that God intends all men to be saved. Calvinism doesn't teach the error that God loves all men, nor does it teach that God has a wonderful plan for the life of every single man (consider Judas). Calvinism doesn't teach that men have a free will that can merit salvation or cooperate with God in order to merit regeneration (such a thought would make Christ but half a savior). Rather, we believe salvation is of God alone.

[lauddyboi]

i think you were %100 to portray the apostle paul as one who preaches the gospel to unbelievers and defining the word unbelievers NOT as somebody with no religious belief, i probably would've brought Acts 17 (Paul in Athens) into that part of the discussion as (i think) its a better illustration of the point i think you were trying to make

[anamasteos]

I don't know how I found myself back here in your world but,.. I don't know, maybe if you all didn't argue so much with each other about what Jesus or his followers actually meant or not....an unbeliever might listen..alittle

Also as long as I'm sorry for anything I do wrong than I'm saved. It's that simple. Why would a supernatural power be so petty. Only a man would want another to gravel at someone's feet on their feet.

[LaneCh]

If it were simply as easy as feeling sorry, then there was no need for Christ to die. What you need to do is repent of your sins and believe in Christ who is alive forevermore to make intercession for all of those who come unto God through Him. Do you believe that arguing or debating is wrong?

[justagalactichobo]

Feel free...the email link at the site works.

[LaneCh]

I asked if YOU have questions. I don't have any. I've already seen what you've presented.

[justagalactichobo]

I'm an ex-Calvinist. There's nothing you can tell me I don't already know.

[LaneCh]

If what you're sharing on your site is what you held to as a Calvinist, you weren't a Calvinist by definition. I don't believe a lot of what you write on there, and Calvinists I know don't, either. If you hold to what you've said on your site, it's like Bart Ehrman saying he used to be a Christian because of what he held at a time but now doesn't accurately present facts.

[justagalactichobo]

It occurs to me you may be like folk Catholics or folk Mormons: one can attack and refute official Roman or LDS doctrine but they'll brush it off by saying "That's not what WE believe." And it isn't, so the arguments - while valid - are mistargeted and worthless. Perhaps you have some modified form of Reformed theology that doesn't square with that of every other Calvinists, I grant that is possible. But I've YET to have a Calvinist show me from Calvin or the Reformed heavies that I'm wrong.

[justagalactichobo]

If I have a 100% effective cure for brain death (think Terry Schiavo), and gave it to all like her with no conditions or cost, I'd be universally loved, right?

Now imagine I offer it to Terry on the one condition that she FIRST signify her trust in me. I'm angry and condemn her when she doesn't. I walk out forever. She dies a vegetable.

My cure still works. But NOW how lovable am I? Can I now be considered anything but an hateful, evil, unimaginably cruel monster?

ephesians3-9 {dot} c0m

[LaneCh]

I visited your site. Your representation of Calvinism is absolute garbage. Anyone who truly knows what it teaches will recognize the blatant straw men immediately. I'll be happy to go over the particulars if you have questions; just ask.

[justagalactichobo]

Garbage and straw men? On my site? Do tell, where? The email link works, I assure you.

[LaneCh]

Here's one for starters:

"Calvinism says reprobates who believe the Gospel cannot really believe it, and so cannot possibly be saved by it. EVER."

Really. Reprobates don't believe the Gospel by definition. That's why they're called "reprobates". People who believe the Gospel are called "believers". Calvinists never say that a person that believes the Gospel can go to hell because they're not elect. They say the reason they believe is because they are elect. Care to reply?

[LaneCh]

(PS. I disapproved your other comment. Empty boasting isn't the same as meaningful interaction.)

[justagalactichobo]

Post it anyway. This is your page but if it's OK in the sight of Christ for you to call what I wrote garbage, what I wrote is far less offensive.

[LaneCh]

Garbage is garbage. It's not a pejorative term. I meant it in the same sense as something that has no use so you throw it out. I wasn't attempting to be facetious there. Your comment was basically boasting yourself saying how "no one has ever proven you wrong." That's the gist of it. It's gone now, though. Are you going to respond to the direct question?

[justagalactichobo]

So, I cannot trust you to allow all replies I make to be seen. Email me or don't - that offer goes to any Calvinist reading this - but this is my last post here:

Reprobates CAN believe the Gospel but it's an unelected belief, thus it cannot save. If the Elect can't fall away, who are the professors who do? Why, the non-elect: those who truly believe for a time, but weren't called & so can't persevere. So my point stands: reprobates CAN sincerely believe, but weren't called and eventually fall.

[LaneCh]

Um... that's a little crafty how you would use me deleting one comment that had nothing to do with the topic other than your empty boasting of "No Calvinist has ever defeated me!" and use that so you can elude answering any more questions by using that to duck out. Not very scholarly.

As far as your statement, though, you've set up a false dichotomy. A reprobate who will be one for eternity never SINCERELY believes. If they ever do, they're a believer! Strawman: 0 Facts: 1

[justagalactichobo]

I stuck around long enough because of a sneaking suspicion, and it was correct...

"No Calvinist has ever defeated me!"

You put that in quotes as if they were my exact typed words. They are not. That means you have slandered me (libel, actually). That is a sin. You are not worth debating if you do not hesitate to resort to such. But my email still works. THIS is my last post here.

[LaneCh]

I wish I would have copied that comment now. That was basically what you said, was it not? It would be quite strange if you said something that wasn't basically "No Calvinist has never defeated me!" then say "But I've YET to have a Calvinist show me from Calvin or the Reformed heavies that I'm wrong." I'll assume for the sake of argument that you're not schizophrenic. (cont...)

[LaneCh]

Again, it's another loop hole you've presented to run away from the lack of substantiation behind the assertions you present. If you don't stand behind what you say, who has any reason to believe you when you say it? I'm sure the readers of these comments won't; rational ones, at least. If you decide you'd actually like to address the issues you've presented and I have asked about, as you know by my pm to you, the comments are not being moderated on this video now. Really, there's no excuse.

[IsJawn]

Dear justagalactichobo,

I read that you are not posting here any longer, but if you ever read this please reply with a definition of the word "believe". I am almost certain by the post I am replying to that you are using the word believe as most Americans do, and not what is meant by it in the Hebrew/Greek. Once you take up a more "Biblical" idea of the word "believe" all your logic falls apart.

Also if God begins a work in someone he will finish it, no man will fall if he ever was saved.

[JohnO318]

I wonder how those AOG 'leaders' convinced themselves that what they were doing was Christianity. Why were they laughing?

[5xSolas]

I grew up Pentecostal and even attended the church of the TBN "Bible Answer Man", Dr. Dan Schaeffer.

When I got into Apologetics to witness to Mormons and JW's, the church came against me hard. Funny thing, my desire to witness to the cults and the churches desire to keep me from witnessing to the cults is what led me into deeper desire for truth.

I went through that whole Pensacola Revival scene. It was right at the time of my transition out of Pentecostalism; helped me see a lot more clearly

[5xSolas]

Just to clarify, the Pensacola revival did not help me 'spiritually' see. I seen a lot of crazy things and witnessed a lot of wild 'church' services.

I'll never forget rolling the Assemblies of God leaders out on flat carts because they were too "drunk in the Spirit" to walk.

There but for the grace of God.

[LaneCh]

"I'll never forget rolling the Assemblies of God leaders out on flat carts because they were too "drunk in the Spirit" to walk."

Sheesh.