I'm very pleased to have left this cult. I stayed in it longer than was good for me, but never felt wholly a part of it. I particularly disliked the evasive and dishonest way a distorted "spirituality" was presented as the sole path to recovery and personal salvation and also the avoidance of any accountability for immoral and even criminal behaviour. I would never trust this organisation as a source of spiritual guidance.
I applaud you. It is a cult and it just breaks people down. They completely disregard new research and facts and base everything on superstition and slavish adherense to the "program."
THANK YOU, THANK YOU! I left almost 6 years ago and almost decided to go to a meeting recently just because I felt lonely. Knee jerk reaction after having spent 18 years in that crazy place.
There is a considerable measure of psychosocial pressure in and around AA that "sucks people in" and makes it difficult to leave. Being told over, and over, and over again that if you DO leave the fold, you will inevitably drink again is a powerful threat. Select examples of people that DID drink again are celebrated and hammered home again and again in the AA culture. The multitude of individuals that DID make it out sober are either outright ignored or dismissed as exemplars of "dry drunks".
"many people are greatly disturbed by criticism of the disease concept. They argue that the labeling of alcoholism as a disease frees alcohol abusers from feeling guilty or ashamed about their drinking and thereby makes it easier for them to seek treatment ... yet reports suggest that the disease concept does not always have this effect. Many heavy drinkers view the label 'diseased' ... as stigmatizing, and so they reject help under such terms"
People are supposed to leave. When the job is done -- quitting drinking - one gets on with life. Just leave aa. If aa does not know people are supposed to leave, that is aa's problem.
Don't drive a car, it's likely you will drink again. Don't walk down the wine isle while grocery shopping or you will drink and die. Quit your job or you will drink again and die. Magesveer SHUT UP!! Let me guess your gonna pray for me now right? Fuck you
Most of these people who are speaking their truth did throughly work the entire AA program & it didn't work except to get us mixed up in a cult of dysfunctional, abusive nonsense. Our lives greatly improved when we left AA & deprogrammed. We are here to help those who have suffered in AA & been harmed by the incurably diseased old-timers & sponsors following Bill W's quacker cult religion. Slogans are cult thought stoppers not reality. We are happier we left AA forever!
I want to thank all the people in the anti-aa movement for their courage to speak their truth. I will forever hate aa. I can actually address my personal issues based on reality of advanced research on the subject of alcohol. aa encourages members to maintain the very dysfunctional behaviors associated with addiction. This is done in covert and overt methods using special language and behaviors to isolate members from finding the truth.
I find it so curious the best seller "The Secret" and all the delusional wish upon your wildest dreams come true success why with millions visualizing material success the economy is crashing? Like aa fails more than it helps. When I went to college ethics was a priority based on crashing markets 10 years ago. AA doesn't give people the choice to leave they make threats of death and insanity. Money doesn't even have real value except in people's delusions; its paper. We need honest reality.
If you have one million members and take even 5 cents from each of them daily it adds up to $500,000. If you take 5 cents from them every day for 90 days it equals $45 million. Members give freely forever to someone and you aren't allowed to question anything "it is simple stupid." "Think, think, think," but that doesn't imply to newcomers. Newcomers don't get it ha! ha! ha! Abandon yourself to AA & God will solve "all" your problems and all the promises will come true. (NOT TRUE) Amen.
d765-i attend meetings & find comfort in them. blame's opinion is different. in or out of AA blame is free to express dissent in whatever medium he chooses. blame does not have to leave and 'shut up' because you say so. blame is entitled to express his opinion. no rules, only suggestions - right? in or out.
insult & demands for silence don't further debate nor aid informed decision. they just demonstrate demagoguery - not unconditional love & service.
Exscuse my ignorance.but do AA look to their members for cash "Donations" ? I am just wondering what it is they extract from their members! I knew a guy who reckoned they saved his life,he couldn't spk higher of them,he would get calls at all hrs to go and help other members right up until he died in his 60's.Hav this group changed since the 80's?
AA corporate has a $12million/yr budget, a prudent reserve of $15 million, and a well-paid heirarchy at the top. Everybody knows a guy, but, sadly, I know untold hundreds who have found AA to be unhelpful, and sometimes, even harmful, Mike
And I really can't think of another movement, including even the craziest of cults, in which the founder being thought to be suffering brain damage (see "Bill's Story")wouldn't be seen as a disadvantage. In aa it seems to be a badge of honour, in fact almost a requirement for membership. Perhaps this goes some way to explaining aa's rabid anti-intellecctualism.
Personally, I think some of the glaringly illogical contradictions in Wilson's "reasoning" might be due as much to the brain damage which was considered a serious possibility at the time of his last treatment in Towns Hospital as to deliberate deceit. Gross egotism, dishonesty and an inability to think objectively and critically are shown in pretty much equal measure in his incoherent ramblings.
This is pathetic nonsense posted by the sad looking man with the hat. Jesus mate if you dont wana go to AA, or if you have left AA then thats fine, just move on! Why these stupid videos??? Can you not move on? Leave AA in your past and stop being so pathetic! Ur an adult-grow up!!!!!!!!!!!!
Read through enough comments to realize aa members are the ones who are often really immature towards these videos. Go read the letters on Orange Papers and it is amazing how abusive aa members are towards AO. Read with an open-mind how many people are helped who's lives have been harmed by aa. Even outsiders who lives have been harmed find relief when they realize the truth about aa cult religion & its die-hard fellowship. Listen to more speaker's tape horror/comedy acts w/ zero solutions.
"Signs his own death warrant" is a very curious and revealing choice of words. A death warrant is an order for the execution of a criminal guilty of a capital offence. It's certainly not a term which has any meaning in the context of illness and recovery.
most AA's are lucky if they've read any of bill's conflicting babble even once - that's for step/book meetings & disconnected, out of context 'identification' afterward. IMO, actually reading bill's b.s. is what accounts for a big number of the 90% who walk out the door in yr. 1. it's not 'paradox'; by & large, it's an incoherent mess of theology, pop psychology, awful science, & tortured logic. for most, bill w. is not a helping hand/voice of strength. the person next to them is.
I agree. They might not read it for themselves, but some of the most twisted and conflicted stuff he ever wrote is read at the beginning of every meeting. "How It Works" is the first alarm bell that goes off in many heads. Mike
how did viewing a well made video done byt someone whom you have never met give you the vision to know the quality of their life/ did your higher power give you that remarkable ability?
AA is by attraction not promotion. Even if AA has one million members those people are running around trying to bring in newcomers regardless of the results. It is the same with Walmart and Amway. We have the best at the lowest price; in fact AA is so good it is free. It cost me a lot of wasted time, energy, & resources; all AA offers is a refund of misery (ha! ha!) AA brought me tons of misery & caused me a serious health problem. Then they laughed at me. I didn't off myself & can speak out.
AA has an easy way out of any responsibility to the customer: it is always the victims fault, the member is always wrong, and they don't know what they think or feel.If you have a problem go to more meetings and 12-step more people and God will magically make all the AA promises come true. You will know happiness & purpose and live a sober life beyond your wildest dreams. All I met is a bunch of dysfunctional, abusive con-artists thinking their illogical group mentality is funny. zero solutions.
Enough experts on cultic activities and groups have questioned AA's raison d'etre.
Enough research has proved that AA is not better than any other treatment.
No need to promote a highly dated 1930s religious concept of addiction over 2008's understanding of the problem. The only need to do this comes from the members who have a need to belong to a group who are defensive about change, who need to justify their life choices. AA does not own the copyright on abstinence.
The reason AA won't allow for accountability and accurate statistics for what goes on in their clubs and organization is the anynomous clause that veils the truth in secrecy and protection that is above the law. I considered making a law that AA has to report of all members who commit suicide. There should be a complaint dept in AA and all complaints should be taken seriously. The club here encourages one violent member to physically assault people. A boy was hit for spitting on the floor.
I was sober for 4 months before a person I knew for over 20 years 13-stepped me into AA knowing I had alcoholics in my family. He preyed on every piece of my deepest wounds and then he turned abusive on me w/o notice 2 years later. How about each state have 200 drs., lawyers, judges, & non-addiction mental health professionals attend mtgs every day for one year and work the program and then give a review about their personal professional experience w/ the members of AA.
look, AA keeps & publishes general stats (membership estimates, demographics, etc.) - they just don't publish the stats you want to see (e.g., '1989 tri-ennial survey' like studies). they keep the not-so-good news in-house. as a private non-profit group, that's their prerogative.
you can use AA's published stats to develop correlations & stats of your own (e.g., annual estimates from 2001 - 7 showed a decline in membership [approx. 6%] everywhere but canada).
Denial of the not-so-good news kept in-house sounds like deception and lying in an program of rigorous honesty. AA has proved its perogative is to claim, "rarely have we seen a person fail who throughly followed "our" path" yet you can not tell me that every single old-timer: 10-30+ years has seem plenty of horrific failures by people who gave themselves entirely to the program. That statement is a lie and false claim with zero accountability.
hum-not being glib, but whom does a self-supporting AA need to 'account'? whom does 'save the children' need to account? (go over their books - only 20% of their contributions go to 'saving' anybody.)
if someone buys into (& stubbornly stays with) the 'rarely ...' rhetoric when it's not working, who is to be held to account? people may be susceptible, but they're not robots - they can choose. AA isn't Jonestown; the door swings 'out' as well as 'in'.
I don't have to do anything you suggest. AA should be accountable for all the crimes & suicides I witnessed: drink, go insane & die; drink, go insane & die; drink go insane & die; drink, go insane & die or do the 12-steps & once the person has done the 12-steps they are usually falling apart to the point of suicide? I will speak out that AA is a dangerous cult for the rest of my life & I tell everyone I know too. (forever will I celeberate leaving by speaking the truth)
Notspeedy01314 we have heard your rhetoric repeatedly. Go back to Orange's modules and brush up, you are fooling noone. The doors swing out as well as in ? You think AA could do with some healthy criticism.
From your comments clearly you are here to mock. Sock puppet?
AA reminds me of a multi-level marketing scam. People are encouraged to believe that they must sponsor to stay 'well'. This means that newcomers get to have 'spiritual therapy' confession based sessions with sponsors who have had no training and are vulnerable to a whole range of problems
I have no problem with properly supervised group support, but I take issue with tax-payers funding social workers to advise clients to attend such unprofessional and dangerous cultic groups We must speak out
if AA is indeed the drain on the US taxpayer you suggest it is, then conscience compels you to speak out. in order for your 'speech' to be taken seriously, you'd better provide facts & figures. AA may be anonymous, but state/fed. tax agencies & publically-funded institutions have to open their books to public scrutiny by law. use whatever evidence of correlation & figures you want for statistical purposes, just substantiate your argument. otherwise, it's just more opinion & anecdote.
The Orange Papers provide copies of actual hard evidence and a huge host of letters that show how AA members attack w/ their illogic, and people who were harmed. The more people that speak out from any angle the more the secret anyonimity of AA's zero accountabiity cult is exposed. It is like trying to beat Scientology or any other cult. Maybe one voice will save one person from harm? If it isn't one cult it is another.
orange has certainly done his homework & many of his arguments & points are troubling, worth hard consideration in or outside of AA.
but orange's work is more reflective of polemic - not peer-reviewed academic/medical/professional presentation. diagnosing bill w. as suffering from narcissistic disorder simply from review of his writings, speeches is pure conjecture. convincing to you, perhaps, but not 'actual hard evidence'. overwhelming evidence of AA doing public harm can't help but surface.
of course that evidence needs to exist & there needs to be a preponderance of it. it would seem those on this channel & those who respond have the will to collect & present this ultimately damning case. go to the hospitals, treatment centers, GSO & AAWWS. file FOIA requests & demand they open their books. lobby congress, local politicians - build coalitions with the ACLU, etc. & demand accountability.
or just sling mud on youtube. i suspect i'll see more of the later rather than real action.
i go to meetings semi-regularly again, but i appreciate legitimate criticism when i see/hear it.
not trying to be a troublemaker, just suggesting there are ways for getting stats on an 'anonymous' organization/method if there's a will: anonymous doesn't mean ultimately impenetrable.
i don't believe in 'AA' any more than i believe in roman catholicism. in my view, there's a lot about it that's well broken(e.g., mindless, rigid adherance to dogma, ...
... slogans & 'truly' working the 12 steps [whatever that means]). i believe i can find help & support among a few people who go to AA meetings. simple as that.
if there is a preponderance of people directly harmed by AA/12-step, then a letter/e-mail campaign or a web-based petition shouldn't be hard to start up, promote & gain momentum. that would carry more weight than anecdotal accusation & might move AA [organizationally] to take these criticisms more seriously.
in the US AA is probably used as a 'cheap band-aid'. but not all published, reviewed studies uniformly support a 'well-known' 5% with/without conclusion.
ray s. sent me a link for a 5-yr. VA study showing roughly a 45% 'success' rate among individuals attending & 'involved' in AA following treatment. CBT was a fairly close second, no support third. study is recent & searchable. the VA might argue their findings show the 'band-aid' (involvement, at least) is helpful at near a 50% rate.
I am objecting to addiction workers in the uk sending their clients to AA/NA rather than providing them with the necessary treatment/tools to fight their problem use. Looking at the comparison studies, there is no evidence to show that AA is a superior method than any others tested therefore there is no need to promote AA above other theories/treatment philosophies. Social services should provide services which are inclusive to all, not just those that can believe in the 12 steps. I speak out.
Furthermore, I do not see treatment/help provided by tax-payers as a 'drain' as you described. I see the levels of care offered by the uk and the us as derisory compared to the level of need. Tax-payers need to be more aware of where and how their taxes are spent, more involved in getting better services. It is not just treatment it is good housing, and other services. AA neatly points the finger at the individual, rarely at society. Binge drinking has been actively promoted in the uk and us.
When I got sick in aa, I could only describe it as a feeling of being spiritually attacked. It made me completely sick. In the past few days I was able to tap into the energy from the universe to get well. I just wanted to share: sponsors having newcomers open up their entire life's wounds (resentments) at one time is a spiritual attack. AA is not a wholesome spiritual program. It is a sick program of uncurable, insane people keeping eachother sick with its self-made lies.
Once I left AA, I actually have time to improve my own life. Ditto on the waste of gas going to meetings daily. AA was a waste of time and money. It attempted to distort my thought & feeling processes. Any group that tells you to go against your gut instincts doesn't know what they are doing in the first place. Leaving AA was the best thing I ever did.
Once I left AA, I got on with my life once I realised they did not own the monopoly or the copyright on abstinence -something that they tried to brainwash me into believing. I have never received any real support from AAers in the addiction field I worked with if they found out I didn't drink. Their reaction- you'll be back, and you're missing a wonderful life with us. Support is good, if it is safe. AA is unaccountable and full of 13 steppers, who are there to prey on the vulnerable - a cult
I have written proof I was 13-stepped into AA by a person I knew for over 20 years. He had met w/ a guru w/ over 30 years to make sure his heart passed the test of the 4 absolutes before we dated. I thought it was weird then & now. It was a trick to get me to trust him & he was lying from day one. The truth is AA old-timers use these things to trick & exploit newcomers. The program is a game for them. AA members can't face reality regardless of time in the program.
Another good video... but you should have mentioned how much you can save on gas if you're not driving to 6 meetings a week! :p (or, made it more eco friendly to leave AA - "saving the planet" is cool right now :p
Do you know off hand how many circular logic's or prophecies of disaster there are in their opening commercials? I guess never thought to this until last night. I have so many projects running right now that I am uncertain that I can take another, but it gives me an idea.
Sorry which commercials? I am in the UK and as such I probably have never seen them. They have commercials? Isn't there a tradition to stop them doing that?
Thanks for the 5 stars - means a lot to me, especially for this one.
With the "Commercials" I mean the opening readings. We here call them the commercials. Basically a person would turn up 15 minutes late to avoid the commercials.
Interesting, when I did finally start doing this it made less and less sense and was only obviously a cult of sorts.
This has been flagged as spam show
I'm very pleased to have left this cult. I stayed in it longer than was good for me, but never felt wholly a part of it. I particularly disliked the evasive and dishonest way a distorted "spirituality" was presented as the sole path to recovery and personal salvation and also the avoidance of any accountability for immoral and even criminal behaviour. I would never trust this organisation as a source of spiritual guidance.
Tobytwirl1000 2 months ago
@Tobytwirl1000 Mine was a very similar experience there, as are my conclusions. Thanks for the post. Mike BD
blamethenile 2 months ago
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Tobytwirl1000 2 months ago
You are suposed to leave. You have problem. AA is a useful part of a solution which you carry out. So, when the problem is solved, you leave aa.
dix345 2 years ago
@dix345 I doubt if your attitude will cost an alcoholic his/her life, but it could cost AA lots of dollars.
MrJackshuman 7 months ago
Respond to this video... Great video! Thanks Blame.
MrJackshuman 7 months ago
awesome!!!
Staplesz 2 years ago
5 stars!
wolfofthewhitemt 2 years ago 2
thank you for doiing this.... i am leaving aa too ... i saw billw in videos and i feel this is not a good man
artdietrich 2 years ago 2
I applaud you. It is a cult and it just breaks people down. They completely disregard new research and facts and base everything on superstition and slavish adherense to the "program."
michellestmarie 2 years ago 5
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ijmac09 2 years ago
It took ten years to realise? How come?
scullysedge 2 years ago
Thanks for such great videos!
wolfofthewhitemt 2 years ago
Thanks for watching, and commenting. Mike
blamethenile 2 years ago
THANK YOU, THANK YOU! I left almost 6 years ago and almost decided to go to a meeting recently just because I felt lonely. Knee jerk reaction after having spent 18 years in that crazy place.
jazroxkc 2 years ago
how come it took 18 years to get out? Weren't you happy in any of that time? I'm asking genuinely.
scullysedge 2 years ago
There is a considerable measure of psychosocial pressure in and around AA that "sucks people in" and makes it difficult to leave. Being told over, and over, and over again that if you DO leave the fold, you will inevitably drink again is a powerful threat. Select examples of people that DID drink again are celebrated and hammered home again and again in the AA culture. The multitude of individuals that DID make it out sober are either outright ignored or dismissed as exemplars of "dry drunks".
Hammersley1967 2 years ago 2
Don't you mean psychosis instead of psychosocial? :-)
isegoria1 2 years ago
Actually, PSYCHOTIC....
Or is it NEUROTIC?
Hammersley1967 2 years ago 2
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isegoria1 2 years ago
Comment removed
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Just before you go...
"many people are greatly disturbed by criticism of the disease concept. They argue that the labeling of alcoholism as a disease frees alcohol abusers from feeling guilty or ashamed about their drinking and thereby makes it easier for them to seek treatment ... yet reports suggest that the disease concept does not always have this effect. Many heavy drinkers view the label 'diseased' ... as stigmatizing, and so they reject help under such terms"
Herbert Fingarette (1985)
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
People are supposed to leave. When the job is done -- quitting drinking - one gets on with life. Just leave aa. If aa does not know people are supposed to leave, that is aa's problem.
dix345 2 years ago
If that is what you did Dix, it is very likely that you will drink again. Let's hope not!
magesveer 2 years ago
magesveer -- stop being stupid.
dix345 2 years ago 3
Don't drive a car, it's likely you will drink again. Don't walk down the wine isle while grocery shopping or you will drink and die. Quit your job or you will drink again and die. Magesveer SHUT UP!! Let me guess your gonna pray for me now right? Fuck you
hipbone16 2 years ago
Treat people with respect or you will drink again......
You can walk past the wine and beer in the store tho. Keep your job, that is ok too. Drive a car...sure go ahead.
Bottom line- don't drink!!
magesveer 2 years ago
Don't drink what?
FREEMAN860 2 years ago
Dissing dumbassism isn't going to make me drink again. As dix345 often says, get a new jokebook. Mike
blamethenile 2 years ago
keep coming back! It works if you work at it !!!!
paigescotmel 3 years ago
I wish you folks would at least get some new slogans. Mike
blamethenile 3 years ago
Most of these people who are speaking their truth did throughly work the entire AA program & it didn't work except to get us mixed up in a cult of dysfunctional, abusive nonsense. Our lives greatly improved when we left AA & deprogrammed. We are here to help those who have suffered in AA & been harmed by the incurably diseased old-timers & sponsors following Bill W's quacker cult religion. Slogans are cult thought stoppers not reality. We are happier we left AA forever!
humyepright 2 years ago
Good stuff, I am a surviver of two cults now!!
Shaun17170 3 years ago
I want to thank all the people in the anti-aa movement for their courage to speak their truth. I will forever hate aa. I can actually address my personal issues based on reality of advanced research on the subject of alcohol. aa encourages members to maintain the very dysfunctional behaviors associated with addiction. This is done in covert and overt methods using special language and behaviors to isolate members from finding the truth.
humyepright 3 years ago
HEY HUMP, YOU;RE IN DA NILE 2
IamTHErealBLAMEdeny 3 years ago
If you want to leave AA good luck. It' always been a choice.
stonedragon35 3 years ago
I find it so curious the best seller "The Secret" and all the delusional wish upon your wildest dreams come true success why with millions visualizing material success the economy is crashing? Like aa fails more than it helps. When I went to college ethics was a priority based on crashing markets 10 years ago. AA doesn't give people the choice to leave they make threats of death and insanity. Money doesn't even have real value except in people's delusions; its paper. We need honest reality.
humyepright 3 years ago
I OWN AA
idahosmith 3 years ago
Awesome, no more guilt! No more second guessing~ yes, living life! What a concept.
And the 'under every skirt is a slip' bullsh*t!
Very inspiring, it is possible to live life after AA, and without AA, and be okay.
Nicely done.
breakfastclub75 3 years ago
is it safe?
robbyrobrobertrob 3 years ago
If you have one million members and take even 5 cents from each of them daily it adds up to $500,000. If you take 5 cents from them every day for 90 days it equals $45 million. Members give freely forever to someone and you aren't allowed to question anything "it is simple stupid." "Think, think, think," but that doesn't imply to newcomers. Newcomers don't get it ha! ha! ha! Abandon yourself to AA & God will solve "all" your problems and all the promises will come true. (NOT TRUE) Amen.
humyepright 3 years ago
d765-i attend meetings & find comfort in them. blame's opinion is different. in or out of AA blame is free to express dissent in whatever medium he chooses. blame does not have to leave and 'shut up' because you say so. blame is entitled to express his opinion. no rules, only suggestions - right? in or out.
insult & demands for silence don't further debate nor aid informed decision. they just demonstrate demagoguery - not unconditional love & service.
and that's not sarcasm. think.
notspeedy0314 3 years ago
All true. Thanks for the post. Mike
blamethenile 3 years ago
Pro SelfCenteredness. Hopefully you get really rich or there is no point in your way of life
taustinstl 3 years ago
Exscuse my ignorance.but do AA look to their members for cash "Donations" ? I am just wondering what it is they extract from their members! I knew a guy who reckoned they saved his life,he couldn't spk higher of them,he would get calls at all hrs to go and help other members right up until he died in his 60's.Hav this group changed since the 80's?
jamietruman 3 years ago
AA corporate has a $12million/yr budget, a prudent reserve of $15 million, and a well-paid heirarchy at the top. Everybody knows a guy, but, sadly, I know untold hundreds who have found AA to be unhelpful, and sometimes, even harmful, Mike
blamethenile 3 years ago
And I really can't think of another movement, including even the craziest of cults, in which the founder being thought to be suffering brain damage (see "Bill's Story")wouldn't be seen as a disadvantage. In aa it seems to be a badge of honour, in fact almost a requirement for membership. Perhaps this goes some way to explaining aa's rabid anti-intellecctualism.
tobytwirrll 3 years ago
Personally, I think some of the glaringly illogical contradictions in Wilson's "reasoning" might be due as much to the brain damage which was considered a serious possibility at the time of his last treatment in Towns Hospital as to deliberate deceit. Gross egotism, dishonesty and an inability to think objectively and critically are shown in pretty much equal measure in his incoherent ramblings.
tobytwirrll 3 years ago
This is pathetic nonsense posted by the sad looking man with the hat. Jesus mate if you dont wana go to AA, or if you have left AA then thats fine, just move on! Why these stupid videos??? Can you not move on? Leave AA in your past and stop being so pathetic! Ur an adult-grow up!!!!!!!!!!!!
denn765 3 years ago
Read through enough comments to realize aa members are the ones who are often really immature towards these videos. Go read the letters on Orange Papers and it is amazing how abusive aa members are towards AO. Read with an open-mind how many people are helped who's lives have been harmed by aa. Even outsiders who lives have been harmed find relief when they realize the truth about aa cult religion & its die-hard fellowship. Listen to more speaker's tape horror/comedy acts w/ zero solutions.
humyepright 3 years ago
"Signs his own death warrant" is a very curious and revealing choice of words. A death warrant is an order for the execution of a criminal guilty of a capital offence. It's certainly not a term which has any meaning in the context of illness and recovery.
tobytwirrll 3 years ago
There are many, many examples of curious word choices in Bill's writings. AA'ers often call them "paradoxes". Mike
blamethenile 3 years ago
most AA's are lucky if they've read any of bill's conflicting babble even once - that's for step/book meetings & disconnected, out of context 'identification' afterward. IMO, actually reading bill's b.s. is what accounts for a big number of the 90% who walk out the door in yr. 1. it's not 'paradox'; by & large, it's an incoherent mess of theology, pop psychology, awful science, & tortured logic. for most, bill w. is not a helping hand/voice of strength. the person next to them is.
notspeedy0314 3 years ago
I agree. They might not read it for themselves, but some of the most twisted and conflicted stuff he ever wrote is read at the beginning of every meeting. "How It Works" is the first alarm bell that goes off in many heads. Mike
blamethenile 3 years ago
Do the steps or die!!! This is truth!!!
denn765 3 years ago
Everybody dies, steps notwithstanding. That is the truth. Mike
blamethenile 3 years ago
Your videos are sad mate....really sad old man...you must have no life at all...
denn765 3 years ago
As are your posts. Mike
blamethenile 3 years ago
denn kindly explain your clairvoyance?
how did viewing a well made video done byt someone whom you have never met give you the vision to know the quality of their life/ did your higher power give you that remarkable ability?
AAPetofile 3 years ago
CHANGE USER NAME I COMMAND U
idahosmith 3 years ago
I found after leaving AA almost anything is more enjoyable then those dreary meetings with those dreary people.Sherwoode
sherwoode7 3 years ago
According to Wilson rates are 5% (1936) to 50% (1944) "for those sincerely willing to stop drinking have done so".
andreasheinz 3 years ago
If 45% recover the group is honest.
andreasheinz 3 years ago
AA is by attraction not promotion. Even if AA has one million members those people are running around trying to bring in newcomers regardless of the results. It is the same with Walmart and Amway. We have the best at the lowest price; in fact AA is so good it is free. It cost me a lot of wasted time, energy, & resources; all AA offers is a refund of misery (ha! ha!) AA brought me tons of misery & caused me a serious health problem. Then they laughed at me. I didn't off myself & can speak out.
humyepright 3 years ago
You make some very good points. Thank you for taking the time to comment and I am sorry to hear about your health problem. J
blamethenile 3 years ago
AA has an easy way out of any responsibility to the customer: it is always the victims fault, the member is always wrong, and they don't know what they think or feel.If you have a problem go to more meetings and 12-step more people and God will magically make all the AA promises come true. You will know happiness & purpose and live a sober life beyond your wildest dreams. All I met is a bunch of dysfunctional, abusive con-artists thinking their illogical group mentality is funny. zero solutions.
humyepright 3 years ago
There is enough evidence.
Enough experts on cultic activities and groups have questioned AA's raison d'etre.
Enough research has proved that AA is not better than any other treatment.
No need to promote a highly dated 1930s religious concept of addiction over 2008's understanding of the problem. The only need to do this comes from the members who have a need to belong to a group who are defensive about change, who need to justify their life choices. AA does not own the copyright on abstinence.
quali8 3 years ago
The reason AA won't allow for accountability and accurate statistics for what goes on in their clubs and organization is the anynomous clause that veils the truth in secrecy and protection that is above the law. I considered making a law that AA has to report of all members who commit suicide. There should be a complaint dept in AA and all complaints should be taken seriously. The club here encourages one violent member to physically assault people. A boy was hit for spitting on the floor.
humyepright 3 years ago
I was sober for 4 months before a person I knew for over 20 years 13-stepped me into AA knowing I had alcoholics in my family. He preyed on every piece of my deepest wounds and then he turned abusive on me w/o notice 2 years later. How about each state have 200 drs., lawyers, judges, & non-addiction mental health professionals attend mtgs every day for one year and work the program and then give a review about their personal professional experience w/ the members of AA.
humyepright 3 years ago
look, AA keeps & publishes general stats (membership estimates, demographics, etc.) - they just don't publish the stats you want to see (e.g., '1989 tri-ennial survey' like studies). they keep the not-so-good news in-house. as a private non-profit group, that's their prerogative.
you can use AA's published stats to develop correlations & stats of your own (e.g., annual estimates from 2001 - 7 showed a decline in membership [approx. 6%] everywhere but canada).
it ain't rocket science.
notspeedy0314 3 years ago
Denial of the not-so-good news kept in-house sounds like deception and lying in an program of rigorous honesty. AA has proved its perogative is to claim, "rarely have we seen a person fail who throughly followed "our" path" yet you can not tell me that every single old-timer: 10-30+ years has seem plenty of horrific failures by people who gave themselves entirely to the program. That statement is a lie and false claim with zero accountability.
humyepright 3 years ago
hum-not being glib, but whom does a self-supporting AA need to 'account'? whom does 'save the children' need to account? (go over their books - only 20% of their contributions go to 'saving' anybody.)
if someone buys into (& stubbornly stays with) the 'rarely ...' rhetoric when it's not working, who is to be held to account? people may be susceptible, but they're not robots - they can choose. AA isn't Jonestown; the door swings 'out' as well as 'in'.
celebrate leaving, already.
notspeedy0314 3 years ago
I don't have to do anything you suggest. AA should be accountable for all the crimes & suicides I witnessed: drink, go insane & die; drink, go insane & die; drink go insane & die; drink, go insane & die or do the 12-steps & once the person has done the 12-steps they are usually falling apart to the point of suicide? I will speak out that AA is a dangerous cult for the rest of my life & I tell everyone I know too. (forever will I celeberate leaving by speaking the truth)
humyepright 3 years ago
Notspeedy01314 we have heard your rhetoric repeatedly. Go back to Orange's modules and brush up, you are fooling noone. The doors swing out as well as in ? You think AA could do with some healthy criticism.
From your comments clearly you are here to mock. Sock puppet?
quali8 3 years ago
AA reminds me of a multi-level marketing scam. People are encouraged to believe that they must sponsor to stay 'well'. This means that newcomers get to have 'spiritual therapy' confession based sessions with sponsors who have had no training and are vulnerable to a whole range of problems
I have no problem with properly supervised group support, but I take issue with tax-payers funding social workers to advise clients to attend such unprofessional and dangerous cultic groups We must speak out
quali8 3 years ago
if AA is indeed the drain on the US taxpayer you suggest it is, then conscience compels you to speak out. in order for your 'speech' to be taken seriously, you'd better provide facts & figures. AA may be anonymous, but state/fed. tax agencies & publically-funded institutions have to open their books to public scrutiny by law. use whatever evidence of correlation & figures you want for statistical purposes, just substantiate your argument. otherwise, it's just more opinion & anecdote.
notspeedy0314 3 years ago
The Orange Papers provide copies of actual hard evidence and a huge host of letters that show how AA members attack w/ their illogic, and people who were harmed. The more people that speak out from any angle the more the secret anyonimity of AA's zero accountabiity cult is exposed. It is like trying to beat Scientology or any other cult. Maybe one voice will save one person from harm? If it isn't one cult it is another.
humyepright 3 years ago
orange has certainly done his homework & many of his arguments & points are troubling, worth hard consideration in or outside of AA.
but orange's work is more reflective of polemic - not peer-reviewed academic/medical/professional presentation. diagnosing bill w. as suffering from narcissistic disorder simply from review of his writings, speeches is pure conjecture. convincing to you, perhaps, but not 'actual hard evidence'. overwhelming evidence of AA doing public harm can't help but surface.
notspeedy0314 3 years ago
of course that evidence needs to exist & there needs to be a preponderance of it. it would seem those on this channel & those who respond have the will to collect & present this ultimately damning case. go to the hospitals, treatment centers, GSO & AAWWS. file FOIA requests & demand they open their books. lobby congress, local politicians - build coalitions with the ACLU, etc. & demand accountability.
or just sling mud on youtube. i suspect i'll see more of the later rather than real action.
notspeedy0314 3 years ago
So, are you interested in the job? You seem well-versed in what it should encompass. Mike
blamethenile 3 years ago
mike-thanks, but no thanks.
i go to meetings semi-regularly again, but i appreciate legitimate criticism when i see/hear it.
not trying to be a troublemaker, just suggesting there are ways for getting stats on an 'anonymous' organization/method if there's a will: anonymous doesn't mean ultimately impenetrable.
i don't believe in 'AA' any more than i believe in roman catholicism. in my view, there's a lot about it that's well broken(e.g., mindless, rigid adherance to dogma, ...
notspeedy0314 3 years ago
... slogans & 'truly' working the 12 steps [whatever that means]). i believe i can find help & support among a few people who go to AA meetings. simple as that.
if there is a preponderance of people directly harmed by AA/12-step, then a letter/e-mail campaign or a web-based petition shouldn't be hard to start up, promote & gain momentum. that would carry more weight than anecdotal accusation & might move AA [organizationally] to take these criticisms more seriously.
notspeedy0314 3 years ago
AA's stats are fairly well-known, just ignored by most who see it as a cheap, catch-all band-aid for some of society's problems. Mike
blamethenile 3 years ago
in the US AA is probably used as a 'cheap band-aid'. but not all published, reviewed studies uniformly support a 'well-known' 5% with/without conclusion.
ray s. sent me a link for a 5-yr. VA study showing roughly a 45% 'success' rate among individuals attending & 'involved' in AA following treatment. CBT was a fairly close second, no support third. study is recent & searchable. the VA might argue their findings show the 'band-aid' (involvement, at least) is helpful at near a 50% rate.
notspeedy0314 3 years ago
What "speech" are you referring to?
I am making a comment on a you tube film - isn't that what we are all doing?
quali8 3 years ago
I am objecting to addiction workers in the uk sending their clients to AA/NA rather than providing them with the necessary treatment/tools to fight their problem use. Looking at the comparison studies, there is no evidence to show that AA is a superior method than any others tested therefore there is no need to promote AA above other theories/treatment philosophies. Social services should provide services which are inclusive to all, not just those that can believe in the 12 steps. I speak out.
quali8 3 years ago
Furthermore, I do not see treatment/help provided by tax-payers as a 'drain' as you described. I see the levels of care offered by the uk and the us as derisory compared to the level of need. Tax-payers need to be more aware of where and how their taxes are spent, more involved in getting better services. It is not just treatment it is good housing, and other services. AA neatly points the finger at the individual, rarely at society. Binge drinking has been actively promoted in the uk and us.
quali8 3 years ago
When I got sick in aa, I could only describe it as a feeling of being spiritually attacked. It made me completely sick. In the past few days I was able to tap into the energy from the universe to get well. I just wanted to share: sponsors having newcomers open up their entire life's wounds (resentments) at one time is a spiritual attack. AA is not a wholesome spiritual program. It is a sick program of uncurable, insane people keeping eachother sick with its self-made lies.
humyepright 3 years ago
Once I left AA, I actually have time to improve my own life. Ditto on the waste of gas going to meetings daily. AA was a waste of time and money. It attempted to distort my thought & feeling processes. Any group that tells you to go against your gut instincts doesn't know what they are doing in the first place. Leaving AA was the best thing I ever did.
humyepright 3 years ago 2
Once I left AA, I got on with my life once I realised they did not own the monopoly or the copyright on abstinence -something that they tried to brainwash me into believing. I have never received any real support from AAers in the addiction field I worked with if they found out I didn't drink. Their reaction- you'll be back, and you're missing a wonderful life with us. Support is good, if it is safe. AA is unaccountable and full of 13 steppers, who are there to prey on the vulnerable - a cult
quali8 3 years ago
I have written proof I was 13-stepped into AA by a person I knew for over 20 years. He had met w/ a guru w/ over 30 years to make sure his heart passed the test of the 4 absolutes before we dated. I thought it was weird then & now. It was a trick to get me to trust him & he was lying from day one. The truth is AA old-timers use these things to trick & exploit newcomers. The program is a game for them. AA members can't face reality regardless of time in the program.
humyepright 3 years ago
Music by attention & money whores (Gwen?), though not me, I'm not involved...
...video an Eric Blair bitch project, I'd like these (A)F-types:
- abstainers w/ anxiety, depression, motivation. Standard post-rehab f(u) psycho-social integration, 21 steps and drinking guides etc.
- alcoholics w/ job, family and other good reasons to keep on B/C/D/E drinking. May not need much advice but moral support.
this I'd rather give up:
- anonymous w/ drunks not issues
- addicts w/ drug problems
go to hell
andreasheinz 3 years ago
ouuups sorry
- potential alcoholics or alcoholics w/ good reasons to keep B or C/D drinking. May not have any advice for E, thumbs up anyway.
andreasheinz 3 years ago
A - abstinent drinkin'
B - controlled drinking
C - rehab rev.
D - harm reduction
E - ??? maybe E-A?
F - fuck(uk)
BTW thanks to Bill W. and E.M.J.
andreasheinz 3 years ago
Another good video... but you should have mentioned how much you can save on gas if you're not driving to 6 meetings a week! :p (or, made it more eco friendly to leave AA - "saving the planet" is cool right now :p
thegypsy17 3 years ago
great comment isegoria. I thought I was the only one who thought that was a waste of time to keep repeating the same thing over and over.
Glad to found this video and some of the sites that dare to "question" AA!!!
bethmarywhite 3 years ago
Thank you for the comment and I agree wholeheartedly about Isegoria's comment as well. J
blamethenile 3 years ago
newcomers i don't have a problem with
it's the messiah's who have been around for years that are the problems
SimonPeter168 3 years ago
Good point; maybe my next film?
Thanks for taking the time to comment.
J
blamethenile 3 years ago
I like this video. 5 Stars!
Do you know off hand how many circular logic's or prophecies of disaster there are in their opening commercials? I guess never thought to this until last night. I have so many projects running right now that I am uncertain that I can take another, but it gives me an idea.
isegoria1 3 years ago
Sorry which commercials? I am in the UK and as such I probably have never seen them. They have commercials? Isn't there a tradition to stop them doing that?
Thanks for the 5 stars - means a lot to me, especially for this one.
J
blamethenile 3 years ago
With the "Commercials" I mean the opening readings. We here call them the commercials. Basically a person would turn up 15 minutes late to avoid the commercials.
Interesting, when I did finally start doing this it made less and less sense and was only obviously a cult of sorts.
isegoria1 3 years ago
As in the Steps being read out and the Traditions? Wow...
blamethenile 3 years ago