Skipping Sunday School: Extended trailer

[Ashiman12]

It all comes down to how we go about the business of living: by faith, or by reason. If you live by faith, you can lose anything and everything, since faith cannot distinguish between truth and falsehood, and since faith lowers our critical faculties. If you live by reason, the only thing you stand to lose is your faith, and maybe, just maybe, that's not such a bad thing.

[Ashiman12]

The problem with Pascal's wager is that is makes a grave mistake. They think, "Well, if I believe in God, I've got nothing to lose." Except, you could lose THIS life, your ONLY life, if not by violence, then by a long, slow regimin of supression, submission, control, fear, running from our insecurities, being content with not knowing new things, not living every day to the fullest, and thinking yourself a lowly, pitiable thing by virtue of having been born human.

[kuhlwlf]

Looking forward to seeing this

[CitizenRoe]

It's about time this issue starts to get recognition! We nontheist parents are raising lots of kids with more critical thinking skills and solid moral foundations than the average theists. Can't wait to see this documentary! Go Brother Richard! You rock!

[Lukegamer]

I was wondering when Pascal's wager would rear its ugly head, and sure enough it does not dissapoint. Pascal's Law anyone? Any arguement over the existence of god, if continued long enough, will inevitably cause an appeal to Pascal's wager.

Looks like a great documentary, I'm looking forward to watching the full version.

[Ebuverthebicepcurler]

neat, but this is too slow for me.

[bradwatson7324]

I'm a first-time father this October (2010), and I look forward to raising my child free from Sunday school, confirmation, baptism, and all other silly wastes of time. In the place of "You are evil (sinful) by nature," I will try to foster high self-esteem and a rational morality.

[ocodeo]

Awesome!!! Love these guys! Good luck with the film!

[ocodeo]

Awesome!!! Love these guys! Good luck with the film!

[ChaoticSupernova]

I wish I could have skipped Sunday school in my childhood, I would have been better off.

[GoodW0lf]

Can you raise ethical and moral children without religion? The fact that atheists aren't moralless criminals suggests otherwise - hence the very atheist countries like Norway not being crimeswampped.

Morals can be rational - we don't need to be scared of punishment to motivate us to do good, that just taints our actions.

[InfidelsJourney]

keep thinking, skip sunday school

[InfidelsJourney]

you have got to skip sunday school if you want to keep thinking freely

[Trittydi]

We raised our three children as atheists. They're three of the nicest people you'd ever want to meet. Studies have been done that show people have an inherent sense of morality - we're born with it. People who have trouble being good might like religion to help them control their bad impulses - but I don't really think it makes a difference at all - they just like to think it does.

[mahalgimmy]

@Trittydi Please post those studies you mention. I've never seen them. There have been lots of studies from Sigmund Freud and his study of the Id, ref allpsych.com/psychology101/ego­, to recent studies of how anonymity unleashes immoral behavior, on the Internet or behind the wheel, which show just the opposite. They all show that humans have no built in morality. We learn it from our parents and the culture.

[Trittydi]

@mahalgimmy

You say you've never seen them, but did you look for them? Freud got some stuff right, but he got quite a bit wrong.

I did a search using "studies born with a sense of morality" and came up with three links out of the top four right away - didn't look any any past that -- I tried to copy them here for you, but YT wouldn't take the post. So - out of the first four links at the search I gave you above - numbers ONE, TWO, and FOUR are what you are asking about. *

[mahalgimmy]

@Trittydi I tried your search a read those links, mostly just blogs. No wonder I missed them. But I did get the idea that Paul Bloom is a major researcher in the area. I went looking for his actual work. He warns the research may just show empathy emotion. He states "The aspect of morality that we truly marvel at - its generality and universality - is the product of culture, not of biology." Ref: nytimes.com/2010/05/09/magazin­e/09babies-t....

[Trittydi]

@mahalgimmy - Just a comment from a personal perspective ....

I don't think that being born with a inherent sense of morality is protection against bad moral behavior. As you say ... parents and peers - AT LEAST - have an impact on behavior as well. My husband and I have found - happily, but as we already knew - that religion is NOT necessary.

Truthfully - I don't think much of ANY parent that can't see this for themselves. It's just so obvious.

*

[Waggabagaboo]

Hey guys, Texas atheist here.

AMAZING trailer. There are some great minds at work on this doc. Looking forward to it!

And great editing and structure btw! Well done!

[gir908922]

Not only can people be ethical and moral without religion, but some of us can do that without a government. It's all about your ability to show empathy, sympathy, you realizing that you're responsible for your own actions, your reasoning skills, your willingness to accept that we, as a species, need each other to survive, your critical thinking skills, and your ability to use logic.

[JaceInman]

I think a lot of mindless followers of major religions need to watch this. although some people truly benefit from their faiths, too many folks are just sheep.

[thekidofva]

Why id he asking is it possible to raise an ethical child without religion? The answer is obviously YES Duhh. Why even make this documentary when you already know the answer?

[AutumnBrooke]

@thekidofva Probably because there is a large majority of Americans who don't think you can. I think the point is to show that yes, it is possible.

[AnnainCA]

This looks great! As a lifelong atheist myself, I'm definitely looking forward to watching this documentary. And to answer the man at 0:54, yes, it is indeed possible to raise moral and ethical children without introducing them to religion. I was raised with zero exposure to Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, or Islam (or anything else supernatural), and I turned out perfectly fine.

[ProudToBeNerdy]

very much looking forward to this :)

[underweightHater]

this looks absolutely fascinating. seeing what people of different beliefs think, unfiltered, unspun. this is real documentary making.

[sloanb27]

@ mahalgimmy: Atheism is not a religion...it is the ABSENCE of religion. It is not a 'belief'...it is a NON-BELIEF. Atheism has NO FAITH, only free-will. The two are not interchangeable.

[mahalgimmy]

@sloanb27 I'm sure you believe something. Atheism is the belief that all we need to know and can know comes from observation, extermination and other scientific methods. That requires a big leap of faith. It's not easy to keep that faith in face of scientific corruption such as eugenics and global warming.

[wrongwayup]

@mahalgimmy Actually, all that atheism means is 'lack of belief in gods', nothing else. And not disbelief, but a complete absence of belief.

But yes, the scientific method is the most reliable way of understanding the natural world, which has nothing to do with belief or faith.

[mahalgimmy]

@wrongwayup If you call yourself an Atheist, you joined the Atheist religion. I joined because I like how it's very pragmatic. I like how it units mankind with the natural world. I dont like how the scientific method require a huge leap of faith. Mathematics for example, can never accurately describe the natural world. If my bank statement was slightly wrong every month, I would switch banks. But I dont switch from Atheism because I have faith in it. You mush have faith in something.

[wrongwayup]

@mahalgimmy Well, what can I say? Only that you are one misguided atheist if you actually believe what you just typed. :)

[mahalgimmy]

@wrongwayup Actually, I think anyone that says they don't have faith in anything is misguided. If that were true, you would just close your eyes, curl up and die. But you don't. Thus, you have faith in something that keeps you going. People that believe in god and people that don't believe in god are not that different. Most atheists think their religion is special and set apart from all other religions. But every member of every religion thinks that of their religion as well.

[wrongwayup]

@mahalgimmy Atheism IS NOT A RELIGION. The ONLY thing atheism means is lack of belief in gods. There are no other beliefs attached to it. You probably know the saying: 'if atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby'.

[mahalgimmy]

@wrongwayup If your definition was right, when you are asked if there is a god, you would respond "I don't know and don't care." But you do care and you are sure there is no god. You even spend time researching the evils of other religions and visiting web pages like this. Some are what I call evangelical Atheists. They want to convert as many people as possible to their viewpoint simply because it will validate their beliefs. I went through a phase like that once. But I grew out of it.

[wrongwayup]

@mahalgimmy Actually, no. I would respond "I have no belief in gods", I'm not sure gods certainly don't exist, but they *probably* don't, as there is as much evidence for the existence of gods as there is for the existence of unicorns.

As for evangelizing, I have never done that. I have debated with theists, but debating isn't evangelizing. A good debate is fun. If someone wants to be religious and believe in their gods, it's fine with me. As long as they keep it out of public policy.

[mahalgimmy]

@wrongwayup Yes, the Constitution's Establishment Clause is very cool. I don't want live in a country that tries to force any religion on its people; even if that religion is my own, Atheism. Please give me a hand in setting straight the Newdows in the world. And yes, debating is fun. Thanks for a stimulating exchange.  Since I quit trying to convert others to Atheism, I just try to teach tolerance and understanding to my fellow Atheists.

[mahalgimmy]

@wrongwayup If you call yourself an Atheist, then you joined the Atheist religion. I joined because I like how its very pragmatic. I like how it units mankind with the natural world. I dont like how the scientific method requires a huge leap of faith. Mathematics for example, can never accurately describe the natural world. If my bank statement was slightly wrong every month, I would switch banks. But I dont switch from Atheism because I have faith. You must have faith in something.

[mahalgimmy]

Life long atheist has issues with the trailer:

"Religious people aren't bad [...] atheists aren't bad." TRUE - However, this implies atheists aren't religious. Atheism is a religion. Just look at some of the religious fervor in these threads. Atheism just has faith in different things and believes differentially then others.

[mahalgimmy]

Life long atheist has issues with the trailer:

"Human beings have an inherent idea of right and wrong." FALSE - Inherit ideas include hunger, thirst, etc. Ethics are learned from parents and the culture. Religion is a big part of any culture.

[mahalgimmy]

Life long atheist has issues with the trailer:

"More likely to raise an ethical child if you keep religion out of it." FALSE - This is stated by people that think their religion is better then others. It's bigoted. Its no different then a Christian saying a Jew can't raise an ethical child.

[JeffDM]

I think both parties have a vested interest in the answer. What does research say about this?

Something to keep in mind, the religious have an axiom "spare the rod, spoil the child" and interpret the rod as being spanking, but research has been finding that spanked children are generally more aggressive in the long run. So just relying on beliefs without testing them may get you results that are the opposite of what you wanted.

[Sherlatter666]

Looking forward to this one!

[mahalgimmy]

Life long atheist here. I say, please, PLEASE teach your kids religion; its rules, morals, everything!

[shoestore65]

@mahalgimmy " Life long atheist here. I say, please, PLEASE teach your kids religion; its rules, morals, everything!"

Why?

[mahalgimmy]

@shoestore65 Because kids need morals and rules. Later in life, they may reject it. Hopefully by then they will have the maturity to come up with their own morality. But you cannot expect a child to figure out rules for life on their own. I know. I've been there.

[shoestore65]

@mahalgimmy

Yes, kids need morals and rules. That comes from parents and their environment.  You don't need faith to teach morals and right behavior, or to learn them. We don't expect children to figure it out on their own, Again, parents.

Atheists are estimated at 8-16% of the population, but only are 0.2% of prison inmates, according to a study in 1997 by the Federal Bureau of Prisons. If atheism made you less moral, wouldn't they account for MORE than their share of prisoners?

[mahalgimmy]

@shoestore65 Don't mix up morals and the law. There are immoral acts that are not illegal and acts that are against the law that are not immoral. I'm sure you don't want children with Bill Clinton morals; "that's not against the law" and "you have no evidence of that."

Yes, parents are the key. As an atheist, I would not want to answer the "why" questions from a child for morals. "Because I said so" can only go so far. Use Santa, God, the Tooth Fairy, whatever!

[shoestore65]

@mahalgimmy

You would feel more comfortable teaching a child morals with "Because God said so" than "Because this is the right thing to do"?

The problem with teaching children to choose right behavior "because Santa and the Tooth Fairy are watching you" is that it is external control. From what I've read, the highest level of morality is internal control. Doing right because it is right, or what you do when no one is watching.

[mahalgimmy]

@shoestore65 Would you try and explain "highest level of morality is internal control" to a five year old? That is my point exactly. Thank you.

[shoestore65]

@mahalgimmy

No - that's the level to work toward, not what we are born with. I mean teaching them to do right because it's the right thing to do and mom and dad are keeping track and there are consequences, not because God is watching. We both have the same point - a child doesn't have internal control, a child needs to be taught morals and ethics. You seem to think it's necessary to have them believe it's because God or Santa says so - I don't.

[WellConditioned]

@shoestore65 I'm guessing that the child would learn how nasty and vile its rules and morals really are - which will lead directly to atheism.

[wrongwayup]

@mahalgimmy What morals would that be? You do know that the bible for example, is filled to the brim with injustice, absurdities and violence? It is one of the worst moral guidelines imaginable. If you want to objectively study what kind of diatribe there actually is in the bible, check out the Scripture Project (google it).

[mahalgimmy]

@wrongwayup I would hope you turned to Atheism because you like its features and agree with its principals. I don't need anyone joining my religion because of their hate for other religions. Are you one of the ones that took that Mojave Cross Honoring U.S. War Dead?

[wearspjsinpublic]

I'd really like to see this!

[atomicvon]

@wearspjsinpublic same... :)