In the end I think our best bet is to write and promote black fantasy Authors. David Anthony Durham's Acacia series was good, Octavia Butler (RIP) wrote several good sci/fi novels with strong black characters. I don't think you will see a noticeable change until more of us become interested in scifi/fantasy. More black Authors and more black fans will change things for the better.
@jawanza72 I think that's a good point, is that there probably need's to be more black sci fi,and fantasy fan's,ones that write letter's to fix this problem.I wouldn't mind seeing someone like Denzel washington in a fantasy or a Sci fi film,he was great in Book of Eli,or Hally Berry too.But I think it's bad in fantasy series's the most,because they don't like to take risk's,a popular Fantasy film makes way for a clone like series.Look at Twilight,and Vampire diaries,and Buffy was a movie first.
Robin hood prince of thieves had Morgan Freeman in it. He was written into the story in a believable way and the character helped to make the movie. I have not seen the new camelot series so I don't know the story of the black character in it. I am all for more inclusion of blacks in Scifi/fantasy. Sci/fi seems to be doing a better job at it then fantasy.
About Buffy...all slayers die. I don't understand why this is an issue. All slayers die and there's a short turn over rate because of their occupation, it doesn't matter what race they are. There were white slayers who died too.
@amyrat151 On Buffy, there were no recurring characters of color until season seven. The only past Slayers we see on the show are Nikki Wood (black) and Xin Rong (Asian) and they are killed off to prove points about Slayers. Then we Kendra (black) who is killed off and then replaced with Faith (white). We never see any white Slayers die (except Buffy who comes back). The First Slayer is the only black character on the show before season 7 who doesn't appear just to die soon after.
Kendra wasn't just for killing off. Kendra's appearance showed that the slayer line had been altered and she was also foil to Buffy, so was Faith. Faith may be white and American but she's still from a whole other world, from Buffy's pov. Kendra was the traditional slayer who's all business and Faith lived the violence and the fight even when she wasn't slaying. Buffy had to find her own balance between the two.
Also Nikki wasn't just for killing off since she motivated and informed Robin's character. Fun fact about Robin Wood, the writers didn't know if Robin was going to be a man or a woman till they cast a man in the part. So he was really written as a character first not "the black guy in season 7."
@amyrat151 This issue is not why or how the characters were killed, which I think people don't get. MY whole point is that those are the only characters of color we got and they were killed off. It doesn't matter how or why, because by killing them off it's a continuation of bringing in token character to be killed off, by one means or another. Both Kendra and Nikki died to prove a point about other characters (or "fridged") them people women of color makes it problematic.
@amyrat151 Also, I'm not saying that they made Robin "the black guy in season 7" (although he most certainly ended up that way), either way. The issue has nothing to do with the show by itself, it's a larger picture. POC do not live in a vacuum there are stereotypes about them that have been perpetuated throughout the media and by killing off Kendra/Nikki/Xin it is a continuation of that, regardless of intention. It doesn't make Buffy or Whedon racist, but it's still a race issue.
The dragon ball evolution movie,I'll focus ATLA I shouldn't have to defend much,like I said DB the cartoon had light conplected characters,and people with I think some different hair color's,or maybe that's just dragon ball z,I don't watch a hole lot of Dragon ball.So no it didn't bother me much.Because it makes somewhat sense.And they had some asians in the film too.And it Was filmed in america.Asian's would cast a white asian too,in china,or Japan,or whatever.As for Gwen I already explained.
@cloudvol7 That makes no sense. So what if it was filmed in America? There are Asian in America. There are whole Asian theater troops in California and New York. Both mediums are based on Asian myths, designs and concepts. It makes no sense that they should be played by (bad) white actors other than the fact that you simply don't care because it didn't bother you, probably because it has nothing to do with your culture/myths/concepts etc, unlike King Arthur.
@MelinaPendulum I'm saying being as Whites are still seen as the majority in america,and asian people have no problem at all casting asian's white in japan or where ever,why should american's alway's cast them as asian's alway's? And in the cartoon, they didn't look all that asian,I found it quite funny they did it that way,it addresses a in justice in asian cinema.When people bitch I laugh,and I might buy DBE.
@cloudvol7 Their design is based on a style called Mukokuseki and your argument is highly flawed, but I don't think you care so I'll just leave you to that.
@MelinaPendulum So you are saying it has a right to be racist because old ass film's were,and blame the institution,and hollywood,,for it being racist.I think they should be band altogether.If they weren't what would that say? It say's they were racist,I was racist back,those old film's should totally be band! But the shitty Racist UB should stay.Screw that!
@cloudvol7 Yeah, you are not getting what I'm saying and I don't want to keep arguing around in circles with you. So feel free to think UB is unfunny and racist, but I really think you'd benefit looking more into it, but I know you won't bother, so have a nice day. :)
@MelinaPendulum No I don't get it,the style of the UB is set in a 70's style,the time of bell bottoms,and Afro's,and there were black hero's in some 70's films.So if it was being sarcastic about being sarcastic then the fatal flaw is that there actually were some black hero's back then.Like I don't know Shaft.So how was the film industry being unfair?I'd like to see a better reason then I just don't get it.Is it that,or the fact that you can't make a point.
,I'm glad you like fantasy film's,and Sci fi,but King arthur was suppose to be similar too the king of england,when you think castles dragon's,and knight's especially,you think of england,no king's or queen's have been black in england,or royals either I think,and Russell crow would make a sucky egyptian,the Rock is better.And it IS fantasy,but oragins play a factor too,Conan's a white russian,and isn't it weird that alot of actor's in the first Clash of the titan's film,were white,and English.
@cloudvol7 So why is in the fantasy films where there should be blacks/whites/asians playing leads there are not? As for the origins playing the factor in these things, fine, I understand that except NOTHING in Merlin is like the original myths except for the fewest things. Also, there have been blacks in high standing in courts before no queens/kings (though if they did they wouldn't admit it). Origins are fine, but (a) get your history right (b) respect all origins then.
@MelinaPendulum Why does a film like clash of the titan's not have Italian's,instead it has white british people,it's because of England once again I think,so they had some black's that I'm sure weren't the majority in England,that were in high places,so it makes sense for them to cast a black person as a side character do to the majority,but Star trek has every race on the ship,and I'm speaking of the origins of the original stories,and how they were based historically a bit also.
@cloudvol7 Italians? You mean Greeks don't you? Yeah but like I said if your going to do respect the origins of all tales and don't white wash the ones that already have minority leads.
@MelinaPendulum Isn't it Rome italy? Roman's are from italy right? And greek's look Italian anyway's,lol,Have you seen,the Age of dragon's,I really liked Danny glover's performance,it's like moby dick,he was Ahab,I get some of yur point's, it's weird that British people play italian's,and stuff,I doubt if I went to japan that movies would have alot of whites,in their film's,and whites are seen as the majority,still there's Denzel,Ice cube in Ghost's of mars,the Dawn of the dead guy,Blade! :)
@cloudvol7 Clash of the Titans is based on Greek mythology, not roman and no Romans and greeks don't look alike.
Whites aren't the majority in Japan so of course they wouldn't have whites in their films. However in America and most of western Europe we don't have that excuse, especially when a lot of these films take place in urban places.
Naming a few that are around doesn't make that the norm. Look at the Last Airbender, Dragonball Evolution, 21, Akria, etc.
@MelinaPendulum Lol,Greek's don't look italian,have you ever seen My greek wedding? They so do! And it was a typo, I meant whites are still considered the majority HERE,even if in actuality they're not,I never thought the Dragonball characters were drawn very asian in the cartoon,so it didn't bother me too much,the main character in the last airbender fit the part to me,and it had a few different races,whether it totally matches the cartoon it probably didn't,but oh well.
@cloudvol7 oh so it's not a problem for the characters in DB or ATLA to be played by white people despite their origins/history being Asian, but Gwen being Black that's a big problem lol
There's some film's pretty racist against whites,like Undercover brother I found racist only against whites,they say we all eat mayonaise,and talk like we're off of leave it to beaver,and the black guy got both girl's in the end,just because I don't know,the big White hype,sucked! The White guy was trying hard to beat Damon wayan's in a boxing match,and was nice,and a lazy Damon wayan's who played a real jerk win's,White man can't jump sucked too! It's racist! And Chris rock is not funny to me.
@cloudvol7 Undercover brother is a parody of blacksploitation all the traits of blacks and whites in that movie are exaggerated. We don't all have afros, do those handshakes and think there is "A man" either. I don't see how UB being seen as attractive to women of both races is racist. That's what happens in all spy movies, the spy gets the girl.
Also White Man Can't Jump, played against the same stereotype the movie was about. As for Chris Rock, well that's taste lol
@MelinaPendulum No you don't all have afro's,but only the main character was a bit outlandish,and black's did have afro's,and dress some what like that at one point,and the whole premise of the movie seemed racist,what with the whole the man thing,and how the white girl totally changes sides,and was like once you've had under cover brother there is no other,it's like okay,I just found the jokes harsher to whites,calling the one guy on their team whitey,and honky,and that alone is racist.
@cloudvol7 Well, the premise is a parody of blacksploitation and the whole idea of there "being a man" and those types of tropes. I don't know if you know the history of blacksploitation, but I think that'd be helpful. Oh yes, the character of Cospericy Brotha was racist and was supposed to be seen that way. You were supposed to feel for Lance, not CB and Lance did end up joining the brotherhood and being seen as part of the team.
@MelinaPendulum Conspiracy Brother is racist? You said it yourself.And how do you know that people were suppose to feel sorry for Lance at all,and not just laugh,and be like,hahaha look at the dumb honky,I think you're way,way off on the movie,I saw it more as a whitexploitation film then a black one,there were NO whites playing black's,it was very pro black,and much more jokes were at white peoples expense,and racist to me.And the director is a racist against whites to me.Some whites are.
@cloudvol7 I don't think you know what a blacksploitation movie is and should go look it up, blacksploitation movies ARE pro-black, it was a sub-genre created in the 70's for urban audiences. I think you are way off about the movie and don't understand the origin of the themes in it or the underlined message it's sending through the jokes mad about both races.
@MelinaPendulum It seems you are making a general claim about Kevin Smith, I mean are you even familiar with his body of work? Also, if you found the movie to be offensive or racist towards you, well that's in your right to feel that way. I personally think you are missing the point of Undercover Brother and by the comments you made, I don't think you really got what it was parodying either.
@MelinaPendulum So it was very pro black,and had alot of racist jokes,at the expense of whites,ny point is Oh so made! And you help make it. And why are you acting like Black's are the victim's in a very pro black film,that had most of the jokes mocking whites?You are still wrong.
@cloudvol7 XD Undercover Brother was produced by a white male, co-written by a white male. Again, you have not proven anything to me that you understand the point of this parody movie at all. The movie has jokes about both races based on stereotypes about BLACKS AND WHITES. That is why it's a PARODY. Tropic Thunder has RDJ in blackface, but there is a point to it, which is why I would not qualify it as being racist. There is a bigger picture to it.
@MelinaPendulum A White can be racist against whites too,so I really don't care about who's the director,what's yur point? And there were ALOT less jokes about black's in Undercover brother,most were at the expense of whites! Did you think blazing saddles was racist when they said Nigger,and Nig like it's nobodies business in a comedy,even though it fit's the time period,and they call a white Honky or whitey,in UB alot,and never say Nigger in the film by a white at all.I found it racist.
@cloudvol7 My point is that you said that "I" helped make it, meaning "I" as in black people and I wanted to show you that, no it wasn't black people making this movie as some hate vendetta against white people. If you found it racist, it is within your mental right to do so. My whole point is that you are not understand what the movie was trying to say about racial roles nor do you understand the history of blacksplotation films to understand the relevance of those jokes.
@MelinaPendulum Well I find the movie mostly un funny,and racist,I don't care what it was trying to say,I care what it said.Are Dark comedies funny,barely ever,and if Blacksploitation film's are that racist all the time.I won't like them.
@cloudvol7 Blacksploitation films came into play in the 1970s because of the racist film industry not giving black a place in mainstream hollywood, so if you have a problem with any race issues that come up in Blacksploitation movies, check to the racist institutions that created those problems instead of blaming those who refuse to play the parts of maids and mammys.
You obviously have not taken the time to hear what it said, because if you did you would have got the subtext.
@MelinaPendulum Actually sometimes I do like Chris rock,but I didn't like him in Jay,and silent bob strikes back much at all,they made him too racist,he want's a coffee Decrackinated!
@MultiMrPaTroN Racism is more than people in white sheets and burning crosses, not everything that is racist or has race issues has to be overtly hateful.
@MelinaPendulum The Disney movie Fantasia(1940) has some of the best art works I've ever seen when I was a kid. Looking back I didn't see nothing wrong with the movie but now that I'm older I see why so many people hated it. The whole scene with the Centaurs is offensive. I mean you have beautiful white centaurs and the only black one is nappy headed, big lips, and was made not to be attractive. Now is it offensive? Yes. Do I hate it? Yes. Will I buy it? No. Is it racist? No, well not to me.
@MultiMrPaTroN It not being racist to you does not make it racist overall. As a black person, of course I see something like that as being racist, not just because of the stereotype, but because of the mockery. It's made to be insulting to black people. So my question to you is: if you admit it is offensive, what makes it not racist?
@MelinaPendulum Coal Black is racist. Scrub me Mama with a Boogie Beat is racist. Undercover Brother is racist. Soul Plane is racist. Betty Boop has racist episodes. The reason why I didn't find the black centaur scene racist was because they didn't portray him in a racist way. They didn't have him eating fried chicken or watermelon, or shucking and jiving or acting stupid or make him look like a monkey like the other movies and videos I name did. They just made him unattractive.
@MultiMrPaTroN Undercover Brother is racist? How so? It is a satire of blacksploitation films.
But the unattractiveness is racists. It's a mockery of black features in order to make them look inferior to the white characters. That is racist in it of itself, because the reason why those types of designs exist to to show the blacks are inferior physically to whites. The intentions behind it are racist, even if they aren't doing "classical" racist things.
And also,Xena is greek,so even if in there were some ancient greek colonies in Africa (mostly the north side).there weren't many black people in Ancient Greece.Probably most of them were from Egypt and Carthage,most of them were berber...
But then again,Xena Warrior Princess was a fantasy-fiction tv serial,and it had many silly and illogical moments that didn't made sense in a historical point of view >.<
Anyway,other than that,very analytical perspective ^^
Still,black people are the most portrayed race in american mass-media besides white people,not asians or hispanics,not even the amerindians that have this right (because country this was initially theirs).But you are right,there is still not much equal portrayal,and shallow people who want their stuff to be commercial usually turn to stereotypes.
Hi MelinaPendulum, in a book how would you describe a coloured person? Because I don't want to be racist but I want the reader to know what they look like :/
I always believed that the gimmick of BTVS is the fact that she IS a blond white girl. You wouldn't expect her to be a slaying machine. Using a stereotype to break a stereotype thing.
Guinevere actually means "The White Enchantress", but that isn't the messed up thing about having a black Guinevere... it's that Guinevere is a disgusting slut and it's worse than having black people playing thieves and addicts 100% of the time.
Morgan Freeman in Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves may be the best fantasy genre black character ever, and the movie around him was terrible.
@Th3Xp3rt A disgusting slut? She only has an affair in the Malory and other french versions of the tale. In the older Welsh ones she and Arthur have a happy marriage, she never cheats on him and they have children. Also, I don't really see why being an adultress equates you to being a "disgusting slut" (slut shaming really?) and worse than a thief or an addict.
@MelinaPendulum I didn't realize sluts were a protected species, I apologize. She ruins the entire kingdom in the good version of the story, and she isn't even a villain, she's an impulse controlled animal. That's what is disgusting.
@Th3Xp3rt Good version? I think both versions are equally good.
I don't like to promote slut-shaming, especially when it's a fictional character who only turns into an "impulse controlled animal" in one (very popular) version of the tale AND if she's that, then what is Lancelot?
@MelinaPendulum He's the same. "best friend/wife stealer". Totally awful. I suppose they are both redeemed in versions, but I don't see why anyone would want themselves represented by either.
@Th3Xp3rt Well as I mentioned before in earlier versions Lancelot/Gwen does not happened...at all. Same in Merlin. They are nothing like their literary counterparts and even if they were, they are iconic characters so of course anyone of any race would want to play them. I don't see how Gwen's race makes her character a representation of me when she's based of someone else.
@MelinaPendulum Oh, so why does the race of any character matter? I may have misunderstood the entire theme of your video. You DON'T want black characters in fantasy at all?
@Th3Xp3rt That's not what I mean. The CHARACTER of Gwen is based off a mythological character. No matter what race she is, her character is going to preform certain functions, regardless of the characters race, which is why it would not, imo, represent any minority no matter who played it. In addition, Gwen's race has never been addressed or commented on in any manner for me to see her character as "black" more of a character played by a black actress. Does that make any sense?
@MelinaPendulum Okay. In Guinevere's case, it's just a matter of people not liking the actress for superficial reasons. Like Heimdall in 'Thor'. Loads of morons refused to watch Thor based on their choice for Heimdall.
As for both versions of the tale ... do you mean French and Welsh? I don't like the Welsh one as much.
@Th3Xp3rt I enjoy the Welsh ones and the French ones for different reasons. I'm not really fond of the women vs women themes in the French one, but I like the prose. The Welsh stories I enjoy, but I think the characters can be a little dry at times.
This must be your polite way of telling someone to fuckoff and walking away. I can tell that you're emotionally tied to this subject, so I'll drop it for now.
@ThomDarc lol, no It's my way of saying "well there is nothing more to say from my end." (It is hard to tell tone in text). Feel free to say what you feel, I just realize that we see this in two completely different lights and we simply don't agree, so I won't be commenting further.
@MelinaPendulum well it's good that we can agree to disagree. However, I would encourage you to look into the mechanisms and social forces which amplify racism rather than seeing it as something which exists in its current state on its own. Economics and power are always the true driving forces behind evil. And if you haven't, check out social theories like Anarchism before you totally disregard them.
@ThomDarc And I would encourage you to look at the issue from the perspective of the minorities who are being poorly represented who may understand that it may be an issue of economics, but that does not change the fact that they are being further marginalized by the media.
@ThomDarc What is there to be specific about? I explained in this video the issues about representation of marginalized people and you responded with talking about economics and power being the reason, while seeming to not see that regardless of the "reason" it's still a problem for those marginalized groups. That's the whole reason I made this video: of course there are social, historical, economic reasons for these stereotypes, but it does not change the end result for peoples.
@MelinaPendulum Problems concerning how the media messes things up seems a bit tame in comparison to something like apartheid or how China refused to serve people at restaurants during the Olympics based on ethnicity. What I meant was there some specific site I could look at to gain a better understanding (besides the one you linked above - and preferably one with a more critical objective approach)?
@MelinaPendulum You deal with the problem by dealing with the cause correct? Many anthropologist see racism as only coming to an end or as a minimal nuisance only after a paradigm shift. While you failed to show Buffy as more than an outlier, I agree with your assertions in some ways. One only has to look at something like Transformers 2 or Santa Buddies to see that. However, minorities are not the only victims.
@ThomDarc I never asserted that they were marginalized groups don't just include people of color: it's gays, disabled people, religious peoples, etc.
I did not fail in anything, you just do not agree with me.
No, there are no sites I could recommend to you, but I would recommend talking to actual people and trying to understand how these issues effect them in their day-to-day life. I would recommend some Tim Wise books.
@childofthemoor Ah ok, I see what your getting at. I don't see what the problem is with having a complex conversation between two people who don't totally agree but who maybe able to establish a dialectic. I personally have no emotional investment in this as you seem to assert.
@childofthemoor So from the link you gave me, the only solution is to just not ever engage in a conversation on the matter. Since you're the expert, how should I talk about it?
Just to follow up, I think the offensiveness of this double-standard comes into play when we explore the flip side of the coin. Nobody bats an eyelash when presented with Elizabeth Taylor as Cleopatra, Charlton Heston as Moses, or Judi Bowker as Andromeda (she should've been Ethiopian); however, if you allow an actress of color to play Guinevere, there is no shortage purists ready to cry foul (and dare I say express outrage if she would've happened to have been dark-skinned.)
I think you touch upon issues that exist in a wider social context. Part of it is simple human nature; humans eschew what is foreign: difference equals deficit. For Hollywood, this reasoning makes sense on the business end--audiences want to pay to see someone like themselves on the big screen. And, yes, these attitudes may be changing, albiet slowly, and America may be labeled as a "melting pot", but America, nevertheless, has a very eurocentric psychology ingrained in its culture.
I have gotten into a lot of arguments over the Gwen issue and basically respond the same way as you do "So you're talking about a show that has magic and dragons in it and you argue that Gwen being black is unrealistic?"
I started to really roll my eyes at anyone who makes a comment like this because I found that a lot of them don't like Gwen's character to begin with ..which is frustrating
It's built off ignorance and people are too damn lazy to research and SEE/WITNESS the truth! Color is too damn important in everyday society and it's because we are sooooo superficial and vain! Tell me why we also have blacks on shows who personally aren't that attractive?! BUT we have sooo many other goood looking black people and i mean sexy! ones! and they never appear? To me television tries to acknowledge whites as beautiful and black is not! WTF not true! all races have beauties and uglies
@MelinaPendulum Damn it (as an answer 2 ur reply. Thanks by the way).... & about my characters filling up space, I'm still working out the details 4 the story, but if a character has no purpose i'll just get rid or it so I'll make sure they hav a purpose now:). (& I didn't kill him off because he is gay. Loads of other characters die off too. & I've tried to make him not my token gay. Other characters are gay, lesbian, or homosexual. & they survive. Probably should've explained better
As a child, I never thought the Crows from DUMBO were racist constructs until rewatching it much later. In fact, I never heard the name "Jim Crows" until just now.
just because there are a lot of interesting secondary characters killed off all the time (of all colors) very frequently. And you know Joss Whedon likes to stir shit up by killing off even the most prominent of characters...still in mourning over Tara, btw. But yes, I do see your overall points and do not disagree, its just I think Buffy is sort of a show that can't be generalized as too emblematic of the normal underpresentation of POC as it has its own rules and is radically unconventional.
@frumaatholoid I love Buffy too, but just because it has it's own rules doesn't remove it from the racial problem. POC/Maginalized people do not exist in a bubble separate from historical stigma. Am I saying Whedon is homophobic/racist? No, but his killing Tara is still a stereotype of killing off gay characters, regardless of the fact that it would have been Oz. There is a history of killing of gay characters and by doing so he perpetuates that same stereotypical trope.
You know, if I had to guess, the real reason they killed off Kendra in Buffy is because the writers had already been planning on introducing Faith for the next season, thus they needed Kendra dead to logically facilitate that. I understand what you're saying about introducing these really cool POC characters just to quickly kill them off, but maybe Buffy isn't the best show to be an example of the under-representation of POC (cont)
Hmm now I think of it, I have to disagree with you on your skin colour having only disadvantages. I have a collegue at university who is dark skinned and can wear all bright colours for makeup and clothing and looks amazing in it, even yellow and orange. A pale person trying to wear those colours usually looks like a total clown, expecially with eyeshadow, on dark skin it looks amazing. Also bright hairornaments look way better on black hair. Envy-inspiring for someone stuck with pastels...
This video has an interesting implication: how would a fantasy based on African history work without appearing either a novelty, or something superficial, like voodoo and tribes. It also hit me that zombies come from African myths, but it has been appropriated as a white nerd interest.
Africa has had a few of its own great civilizations every bit as interesting as Rome or China or the Mesoamericans.
If a character is killed off, it doesn't mean they are not strong, also. It's difficult to win, really. Many people probably include characters who are women, black, latino, gay, disabled, etc, because they think it'll add to the story, not for PC quotas, then they get bombared by people telling them 'OH, THAT CHARACTER SAID A NASTY PHRASE SO ALL WOMAN ARE BITCHES NOW?' or 'Oh, that character died, so all black people are weak in your world now?' Sides, most characters that die are badass. xD
Everything is being boiled down FAR too much. You are a woman, Melina, as well as a black woman, and proud of both. Buffy is a powerful symbol for femanism (not in the crazy dungerees, kill men way, but in the natural way), and I don't think her skin colour has to matter for that to apply. We can never get to an equal footing if there has to be a male character of every race and a female of every race, and a gay character of every race, and a transgender character of every race.
@PurpleBadger That is very easy for you to say PB because you are (according to your icon I'm assuming) white. You are represented. There are plenty of shows that show you in a positive light. You do not have to search for representation in genres you like because you are represented. I was not always proud of being a black woman. I HATED being black because of the stereotypes associated with my race for most of my childhood.
@MelinaPendulum The media never helped me be secure in myself. When I watched Disney movies, even the characters who I liked (Belle) as much as I could admire them, they never represented me. When you are told by the media on a constant basis that blacks hate to read and you idolize a princess who likes to read and see that she's white as a kid in the back of my mind I felt like if I was white people would assume I was smarter/like to read.
@MelinaPendulum When you live in a society that says that white, slim and blonde is the ideal and the heroine of your show is white, slim and blonde and the people of color in the show are killed off before they can even be of worth...shouldn't that be something people might see as a little odd?
@MelinaPendulum I don't disagree, I don't know what it must be like to feel underrepresented, at least in terms of race. I hate the way most Hollywood movies have the most uninterestnig, witless, pointless female characters so I can understand on that level. But, I just think the attitude of always looking for pitfalls in characters, numbers of women, black people, gays, what they act like, etc, isn't a healthy one.
@PurpleBadger For example, I am registered blind, I have very bad eyesight. But there's really very few Blind characters avalible, nevermind in lead roles. (Yey Daredevil, and even he has superpowers, so...) There's the badass blind warriors from anime and Eastern film, or the random blind old character in Western movies. That's it. I don't let it affect me because I understand that these are stories, and stories don't always have positive messages, are not meant to be there to---
@PurpleBadger please people. A story is insular unto itself.
It's difficult to explain. I enjoy seeing a wide variety of races, classes, etc represented. But I also enjoy seeing characters who are nothing like me yet have a simmilliar hobby, simmilliar philosophy, react to something in a way I could understand. Wether they are male, female, black, white, christian, gay, disabled, etc.
@PurpleBadger A story is not insular to itself. Especially if it takes place in our world. Especially when you are of a racial/ethic group, because there are stereotypes that have formed the way characters have written and many of them have been perpetuated and when people still use the same stereotypes from the 1960's about people, that is an issue.
@PurpleBadger I don't want to play the "Whose Got it Worse Olympics" with you because I don't understand what is to be blind and I never will. But as a black woman I have to deal with watching so many horrible/backwards stereotypes portrayed about my gender and people at the same time. Stereotypes that say I'm: lazy, a magical nergo, a sidekick, a jive-talker, an angry woman, a sassy woman, an overweight asexual, an oversexed hussy, single mother, comedy relief, undereducated...
@MelinaPendulum I can understand on some level, but I never will understand what It's like for you. My view is kind of based on my own belief about the media. It affects our world, and because of that, we have to change stories themselves, and I hate that. There can never be a female character who is cruel and messed up without people making assumptions about what it says about women, if she is truely evil or if her daddy is to blame, blah blah blah...
@PurpleBadger What do you mean it's not healthy? I shouldn't be concerned with the way my race/culture is portrayed in the media. It's not going to change unless people drive to change it and that means addressing racial issues even if other people don't see it, because your frame of reference is not mine. You may not see a racial issue where I will, because it represents part of my reality.
@MelinaPendulum But you didn't see a problem in Buffy until someone told you there was. Now you see one, and it does not stop you liking the show, because you are intellegant. But, the human mind makes patterns, and you perhaps see patterns too far, whereas I do not see them far enough.
Also, I am not meaning to say that you shouldn't be concerned. Please don't put words in my mouth because I'm finding it hard to explain myself and my view. I don't mean to be offensive.
@PurpleBadger I didn't see it because I wasn't looking for it and it just wasn't something I was thinking about. I was watching it for entertainment, but I didn't think about it. Yet, when I did think about it i couldn't believe I missed it. We are not taught to look for these things, because there is a mentality that we live in a colorblind society and that says if you see those things you are trying to purposely offend yourself.
@PurpleBadger What I take from this and what I actually feel is that race will always matter until people of color see themselves represented in all types of roles, the same way white people do. It's easy to say I don't see color when all I'm looking at 99% of the time is myself...that's why some white people are annoyed that Guinnivere (sp?) on Merlin is mixed race. It's like the world is going normal and suddenly...wtf?! What's she doing there? For me, it's like where the hell am I?
@PurpleBadger As a child, I noticed that all the black cartoon characters had monkey faces. I wanted the black girl on Josie & the Pussycats to have a lead role, to be seen as beautiful, etc. I noticed in the Christmas Story that the robbers were black. My 10 year daughter notices now that usually the girl with the dark hair (like hers is evil). She also noticed that in the film Rapunzel that when her hair turned brown it was because her hair was dead.
I kinda' get it, though. "It's racist, but..." or "It's sexist, but..." There is a line between morality and truth that needs to be drawn. For example, many Disney movies are racist, but I like them. To say I do not, or that one writer's stereotypical and time-period portayl of a women or black people has ruined my love for them would be lying to seem moral. You can not like the racist or sexist elements, and still like the movie. (TBC)
@PurpleBadger I sorta agree with you. I used to listen to music because of the beat and I just ignored and made excuses for the rude lyrics. Because I've decided to stop making excuses for enjoying this music, I actually don't enjoy it anymore. When my daughter tries to play it in the car, I just can't stand the profanity anymore.
@Nosaltypeanut That's the thing. The beat is what hooks you in, and you can't help but be addicted and enjoy it because it appeals to your mind and (possibly) your soul. It doesn't matter what lyrics are stuck on - all though songs with meaningful lyrics will, in my expirience, last longer and resenate deeper with you.
@PurpleBadger I just want you to know PB, that I love debating with you and I'm never mad or angry at you because you are a smart lady and I like have someone to banter with so, before we continue any more XOXXOXOXOXOXOXXX <3
@MelinaPendulum I love you too, Lina. You too are very smart, which is good! It's good we think differently about the media and storytelling and ...River Song. Makes it more fun. :P
You're just scaring me. xD I have a black female in the book I am writing, who for the majority really does seem like a defensive bitch, and later developes. She also happens to be bisexual. Stereotypically, she fills the role of 'That Queen Bee' type, though she is very intellegant---
@PurpleBadger When writing such a character I try to think of her as any of my others, though I really can not know what her culture means to her. Or, the more simple fact of writing males. You build them up from nothing, not focussing on their main aspect of seperation. ...Or try too. Who knows what that leads too?
@PurpleBadger Well the thing that I feel that the biggest mistake made when white people write black people and other peoples of color is that they make them "white people dipped in chocolate." They are black, but nothing about them social, culturally, etc is black. There is more to race than color and a lot of times that is completely ignored.
@MelinaPendulum I've heard that. They say it for females writing males and visa versa too. It's hard to find the balance, and not make the character simply a portayl of their physical/cultural aspects. QnQ
@MelinaPendulum Sorry, jumping in on your thread but I write and that thing you mentioned is one of the things I struggle with - I don't know first hand what it's like to be Asian or Black or anything like that, so even when I want one of my main characters to be a different race, I don't know how to write it right. It feels like I'd either be accused of writing a racial stereotype or writing them as white-but-not-white and research doesn't seem to help. TBC...
@MelinaPendulum Cont.: What I wanted to ask was, do you think it's better for white writers to try writing POC & risk getting them wrong or to stick to what they know so they don't unintentionally offend an entire race of people by misrepresenting them?
I have minor characters who are POC but I struggle with the main characters thing. =/
I try to put all my characters in a Positive light. I just worry cuz my reaso for putting many races may seem for "token" sake, but I did give everyone development & try to put everyone in a positive light. Oh well. I'll c how it turns out
I'd like to point out something w/ your BtVS ex. There was nothing racist abt what you brought up. The only reason it seems racist to some ppl is b/c they killed off ppl who just happened to be of a certain color. There are obviously no intentions of racism, b/c if it were racist it'd be a lot more obvious. Racism is intentional hate toward a grp of a certain color. & it shldn't matter what Buffy's skin color is. What shld matter is tht she's a good influence regardless of what she looks like
@FlyFree4evr On the other hand, I do agree that racism is caused by both malice and ignorance. But, they often coincide. The only reason why someone would be racist is because they fear what they don't know. And because of their ignorance, they lash out at people just because they can't handle the thought of being equal to someone who just so happens to have different skin pigment.
@FlyFree4evr It's not racist, but it is a race issue. When it comes down to it...it does matter. Like I said Buffy is still a good role model, but how do you think it effects young girls of other races to see that the only characters on the shows you look like them on a physical level get killed off? As someone who spend my childhood thinking that white people were better, an I certainly didn't get that from anywhere but media at that time in my life, it matters A LOT
@MelinaPendulum a question. In my book my golden trio is all European/white. None of them die. On top of that I have Hispanic brother & sister. The boy is gay & he dies. The girl is bisexual. A half black boy. He has half-brothers & sisters that r full black. A half Asian girl & her little sister. & one of the villains is asian. Does this seem like I'm being too "token" especially if my 3 main characters r white?
@Maikkacrackshiper13 Why are you killing the gay boy because that falls under the trope of "killing off gays" as for the other characters, are they important or do you just have them there to fill space?
@MelinaPendulum Im interracial, so I know how yo feel, but I think ur overreacting a lbit. I mean, I love Harry potter. How man asain characters (I consider myself asian. I'm half)? One. & for a little while I loved cho Chang, but if I'm honest I relate more hermione even if I've barely got any white in me. I really don't mind that I there aren't many asians in... Anything much.
@Maikkacrackshiper13 If lack of inclusion towards your race doesn't bother you that's your personal opinion, however I think it's a problem so I will continue to voice it, especially for my own racial group. However, I think it should bother you, imo.
And I honestly do love your videos despite our debates lol and I think you are a really nice person, and when you show things like your book/dvd/tv show collection I just think "I LOVE THAT TOO!"
2. In Merlin, Gwen doesn't seem much of a throw away or a marginal character (compared to Merlin and Jock king boy ....well maybe). Yeah, she doesn't kick a lot of ass or throw spells. However, I still think Gwen is a strong and prominent character.
@ThomDarc How did I say she wasn't? All I addressed is that there are many fans of Merlin who take issue with her character being played by a black women.
@MelinaPendulum "How did I say she wasn't? All I addressed is that there are many fans of Merlin who take issue with her character being played by a black women. "
I love how your talking so much about race in the media and television, I'm doing a paper on the topic and this helps google more idea and find more informaion thanks!
I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. If Buffy has racist overtones, wouldn't it make sense that Joss Whedon's other works would follow a similar pattern: Firefly, Angel, Dollhouse. But since you're not focused on solely Joss Whedon, let's throw in some more examples: Star Trek, Blade, Terminator (Sarah Conner Chronicles), Star Gate, Doctor Who, Planet of the Apes. Are all these shows now racist shows too?
@ThomDarc I think it not really "racist" in the sense that, for some of these shows, one race is BETTER than the other because of racial differences. Maybe more... unbalanced?
@ornamentelle So there is a problem because not enough minorities are present? I thought Melina was arguing from the standpoint that there were no strong permanent characters of different races in modern day TV shows.
@ThomDarc You doing exactly what I'm talking about. I think that those shows have racial issues, that does not make them racists, but it is a problem when you look at these shows, especially since I am black and sci-fi/fantasy is what I enjoy watching and those racial issues are these. It's not making a mountain out of a mole hill as you call it, it's acknowledging that we are not as progressive as we like think we are.
@MelinaPendulum I guess I'm a little slow - what am I doing? Sadly societies and cultures don't change overnight. In some respects (like on the issue of race), American society has made very fundamental changes over the last 50 years in terms of media. However, corporate media makes tv shows based on demographics and stereotypes. They're more concerned with profit rather than race.
@ThomDarc Making excuses for racial issues. Your comment about "mountain out of a mole hill" which makes it sound as if I'm going out of my way to be insulted about the shows you mentioned. :(
@MelinaPendulum I'm just trying to clarify what you are trying to say ...my intention is not to start throwing mud or get people heated. I just feel you are somewhat going overboard with your view. It seems more of a glass is half full or half empty kind of thing. Anyway, I'm sorry if I upset you.
@ThomDarc You are not upsetting me, I but the frown face so you wouldn't think I was attack you lol. If you think I'm going overboard with my view can you please explain why you think that though?
@MelinaPendulum 1. I think you are going overboard in that you're tying race as an issue into situations and characters where it doesn't really fit. I think your primary examples were Buffy and Merlin. I'm not even going to try and make excuses for Disney. You made a good case about Buffy. But, how many of the Slayers before Buffy died and were white? However, this seems to be an outlier rather than the norm - since I cited other examples.
@ThomDarc 1. So you don't think it means anything the only Slayers we see from the past on the show are POC and they are all killed? Nor do you think it means anything that Kendra was killed to prove a point about her training in comparison to Buffy only to bring in another white Slayer (Faith) who was a long lasting dynamic character? We can assume that since the potentials came from different backgrounds that a Slayer can be any race.
@MelinaPendulum I think you could see it both ways. Buffy was formulated as a blonde white ditzy girl who had to become more that what she was on the outside. They could have easily have written the past Slayers off as Caucasian princesses, but they didn't. Buffy is the one good example you can cite that has racial problems of some kind. However, you still haven't addressed how that show is not an outlier of your perception. What is the problem with the other shows I mentioned?
@ThomDarc Yes and because they didn't those characters have to be judged as POC under how those characters are treated in that genre. What do you mean about "you still haven't addressed how that show is not an outlier of your perception" ? As for some of the shows I can only comment on the ones I know: Firefly, take Asian language and culture, but there are no Asians. Blade, has no culture as a man of color could easily be white, Doctor Who, Martha had a horrible story as is hated by
@MelinaPendulum a majority of the fandom. Didn't watch Planet of the Apes, Terminator (Sarah Conner Chronicles), Star Gate and as for Star Trek the actress who played Uhura was treated horribly by some of the higher ups.
@MelinaPendulum What I mean by outlier is that I don't think you have demonstrated how the failings of Buffy is the norm. Firefly seems to treat Asian culture in a similar way to Neuromancer and Shadowrun. It is present because it has become widespread - similar to how there is so much English stuff in present day China ...and yet China doesn't have too many Western people. As for Blade, I didn't know that race and culture had to be linked.
@ThomDarc That's not the point when it comes to firelfy. If this world is as intermixed as it shows why is there Asian culture, but no Asian characters in it, it takes place in the future and by the last names of some of the characters, it shows that we have intermixed. As for Blade...there is more to be black (or any race of that matter) than simply looking like that race. As for the failings of Buffy being the norm: it is and all you have to do is watch television to see that.
@MelinaPendulum Race and culture are separate categories. For instance, the Native Americans had vastly different cultures and languages before European colonization. However, we still tend to stereotype them as all living in teepees and wearing feather headdresses. As for Firefly, I'll drop the point as we are probably going to wind up going in circles.
@ThomDarc Yes, but culture still comes up when you are talking about race, because how you are raised breeds culture. Also your example only proves a social ignorance of culture not the absence of it.
@MelinaPendulum Culture can be linked to race through social stereotypes, but they are still separate categories. But your argument concerning Blade could easily be linked to almost any character regardless of race. The only real culture in America is the culture of consumerism. Racial/cultural identifications in America seem to be utilized mostly on the grounds of separation, division, and exclusive solidarity.
I love love love this video!!! Will be making a response to it! <3 - Chichi
BabesinBookland 3 weeks ago
Can I just say I HATE MERLIN
Not the show the character
I SAID IT ONCE AND I WILL SAY IT AGAIN!!!!
Merlin = UNCLE TOM
Uther = HITLER (Genocide on a massive scale)
UnnamedAssaliant 1 month ago in playlist More videos from MelinaPendulum
i love fangs for the fantasy Paul Renee and Tami make me laugh. You can like it and watch it but you have to be mindful and weary of it
MizzDiamonds 1 month ago
In the end I think our best bet is to write and promote black fantasy Authors. David Anthony Durham's Acacia series was good, Octavia Butler (RIP) wrote several good sci/fi novels with strong black characters. I don't think you will see a noticeable change until more of us become interested in scifi/fantasy. More black Authors and more black fans will change things for the better.
jawanza72 1 month ago
@jawanza72 I think that's a good point, is that there probably need's to be more black sci fi,and fantasy fan's,ones that write letter's to fix this problem.I wouldn't mind seeing someone like Denzel washington in a fantasy or a Sci fi film,he was great in Book of Eli,or Hally Berry too.But I think it's bad in fantasy series's the most,because they don't like to take risk's,a popular Fantasy film makes way for a clone like series.Look at Twilight,and Vampire diaries,and Buffy was a movie first.
cloudvol7 1 month ago
Robin hood prince of thieves had Morgan Freeman in it. He was written into the story in a believable way and the character helped to make the movie. I have not seen the new camelot series so I don't know the story of the black character in it. I am all for more inclusion of blacks in Scifi/fantasy. Sci/fi seems to be doing a better job at it then fantasy.
jawanza72 1 month ago
About Buffy...all slayers die. I don't understand why this is an issue. All slayers die and there's a short turn over rate because of their occupation, it doesn't matter what race they are. There were white slayers who died too.
amyrat151 1 month ago
@amyrat151 On Buffy, there were no recurring characters of color until season seven. The only past Slayers we see on the show are Nikki Wood (black) and Xin Rong (Asian) and they are killed off to prove points about Slayers. Then we Kendra (black) who is killed off and then replaced with Faith (white). We never see any white Slayers die (except Buffy who comes back). The First Slayer is the only black character on the show before season 7 who doesn't appear just to die soon after.
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum
Kendra wasn't just for killing off. Kendra's appearance showed that the slayer line had been altered and she was also foil to Buffy, so was Faith. Faith may be white and American but she's still from a whole other world, from Buffy's pov. Kendra was the traditional slayer who's all business and Faith lived the violence and the fight even when she wasn't slaying. Buffy had to find her own balance between the two.
amyrat151 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum
Also Nikki wasn't just for killing off since she motivated and informed Robin's character. Fun fact about Robin Wood, the writers didn't know if Robin was going to be a man or a woman till they cast a man in the part. So he was really written as a character first not "the black guy in season 7."
amyrat151 1 month ago
@amyrat151 This issue is not why or how the characters were killed, which I think people don't get. MY whole point is that those are the only characters of color we got and they were killed off. It doesn't matter how or why, because by killing them off it's a continuation of bringing in token character to be killed off, by one means or another. Both Kendra and Nikki died to prove a point about other characters (or "fridged") them people women of color makes it problematic.
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@amyrat151 Also, I'm not saying that they made Robin "the black guy in season 7" (although he most certainly ended up that way), either way. The issue has nothing to do with the show by itself, it's a larger picture. POC do not live in a vacuum there are stereotypes about them that have been perpetuated throughout the media and by killing off Kendra/Nikki/Xin it is a continuation of that, regardless of intention. It doesn't make Buffy or Whedon racist, but it's still a race issue.
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
The dragon ball evolution movie,I'll focus ATLA I shouldn't have to defend much,like I said DB the cartoon had light conplected characters,and people with I think some different hair color's,or maybe that's just dragon ball z,I don't watch a hole lot of Dragon ball.So no it didn't bother me much.Because it makes somewhat sense.And they had some asians in the film too.And it Was filmed in america.Asian's would cast a white asian too,in china,or Japan,or whatever.As for Gwen I already explained.
cloudvol7 1 month ago
@cloudvol7 That makes no sense. So what if it was filmed in America? There are Asian in America. There are whole Asian theater troops in California and New York. Both mediums are based on Asian myths, designs and concepts. It makes no sense that they should be played by (bad) white actors other than the fact that you simply don't care because it didn't bother you, probably because it has nothing to do with your culture/myths/concepts etc, unlike King Arthur.
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum I'm saying being as Whites are still seen as the majority in america,and asian people have no problem at all casting asian's white in japan or where ever,why should american's alway's cast them as asian's alway's? And in the cartoon, they didn't look all that asian,I found it quite funny they did it that way,it addresses a in justice in asian cinema.When people bitch I laugh,and I might buy DBE.
cloudvol7 1 month ago
@cloudvol7 Their design is based on a style called Mukokuseki and your argument is highly flawed, but I don't think you care so I'll just leave you to that.
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum So you are saying it has a right to be racist because old ass film's were,and blame the institution,and hollywood,,for it being racist.I think they should be band altogether.If they weren't what would that say? It say's they were racist,I was racist back,those old film's should totally be band! But the shitty Racist UB should stay.Screw that!
cloudvol7 1 month ago
@cloudvol7 Yeah, you are not getting what I'm saying and I don't want to keep arguing around in circles with you. So feel free to think UB is unfunny and racist, but I really think you'd benefit looking more into it, but I know you won't bother, so have a nice day. :)
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum No I don't get it,the style of the UB is set in a 70's style,the time of bell bottoms,and Afro's,and there were black hero's in some 70's films.So if it was being sarcastic about being sarcastic then the fatal flaw is that there actually were some black hero's back then.Like I don't know Shaft.So how was the film industry being unfair?I'd like to see a better reason then I just don't get it.Is it that,or the fact that you can't make a point.
cloudvol7 1 month ago
I think this is a interesting video! And I also think,and hope they have more black's,and mexican's in roles,
cloudvol7 1 month ago
,I'm glad you like fantasy film's,and Sci fi,but King arthur was suppose to be similar too the king of england,when you think castles dragon's,and knight's especially,you think of england,no king's or queen's have been black in england,or royals either I think,and Russell crow would make a sucky egyptian,the Rock is better.And it IS fantasy,but oragins play a factor too,Conan's a white russian,and isn't it weird that alot of actor's in the first Clash of the titan's film,were white,and English.
cloudvol7 1 month ago
@cloudvol7 So why is in the fantasy films where there should be blacks/whites/asians playing leads there are not? As for the origins playing the factor in these things, fine, I understand that except NOTHING in Merlin is like the original myths except for the fewest things. Also, there have been blacks in high standing in courts before no queens/kings (though if they did they wouldn't admit it). Origins are fine, but (a) get your history right (b) respect all origins then.
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum Why does a film like clash of the titan's not have Italian's,instead it has white british people,it's because of England once again I think,so they had some black's that I'm sure weren't the majority in England,that were in high places,so it makes sense for them to cast a black person as a side character do to the majority,but Star trek has every race on the ship,and I'm speaking of the origins of the original stories,and how they were based historically a bit also.
cloudvol7 1 month ago
@cloudvol7 Italians? You mean Greeks don't you? Yeah but like I said if your going to do respect the origins of all tales and don't white wash the ones that already have minority leads.
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum Isn't it Rome italy? Roman's are from italy right? And greek's look Italian anyway's,lol,Have you seen,the Age of dragon's,I really liked Danny glover's performance,it's like moby dick,he was Ahab,I get some of yur point's, it's weird that British people play italian's,and stuff,I doubt if I went to japan that movies would have alot of whites,in their film's,and whites are seen as the majority,still there's Denzel,Ice cube in Ghost's of mars,the Dawn of the dead guy,Blade! :)
cloudvol7 1 month ago
@cloudvol7 Clash of the Titans is based on Greek mythology, not roman and no Romans and greeks don't look alike.
Whites aren't the majority in Japan so of course they wouldn't have whites in their films. However in America and most of western Europe we don't have that excuse, especially when a lot of these films take place in urban places.
Naming a few that are around doesn't make that the norm. Look at the Last Airbender, Dragonball Evolution, 21, Akria, etc.
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum Lol,Greek's don't look italian,have you ever seen My greek wedding? They so do! And it was a typo, I meant whites are still considered the majority HERE,even if in actuality they're not,I never thought the Dragonball characters were drawn very asian in the cartoon,so it didn't bother me too much,the main character in the last airbender fit the part to me,and it had a few different races,whether it totally matches the cartoon it probably didn't,but oh well.
cloudvol7 1 month ago
@cloudvol7 oh so it's not a problem for the characters in DB or ATLA to be played by white people despite their origins/history being Asian, but Gwen being Black that's a big problem lol
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
There's some film's pretty racist against whites,like Undercover brother I found racist only against whites,they say we all eat mayonaise,and talk like we're off of leave it to beaver,and the black guy got both girl's in the end,just because I don't know,the big White hype,sucked! The White guy was trying hard to beat Damon wayan's in a boxing match,and was nice,and a lazy Damon wayan's who played a real jerk win's,White man can't jump sucked too! It's racist! And Chris rock is not funny to me.
cloudvol7 1 month ago
@cloudvol7 Undercover brother is a parody of blacksploitation all the traits of blacks and whites in that movie are exaggerated. We don't all have afros, do those handshakes and think there is "A man" either. I don't see how UB being seen as attractive to women of both races is racist. That's what happens in all spy movies, the spy gets the girl.
Also White Man Can't Jump, played against the same stereotype the movie was about. As for Chris Rock, well that's taste lol
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum No you don't all have afro's,but only the main character was a bit outlandish,and black's did have afro's,and dress some what like that at one point,and the whole premise of the movie seemed racist,what with the whole the man thing,and how the white girl totally changes sides,and was like once you've had under cover brother there is no other,it's like okay,I just found the jokes harsher to whites,calling the one guy on their team whitey,and honky,and that alone is racist.
cloudvol7 1 month ago
@cloudvol7 Well, the premise is a parody of blacksploitation and the whole idea of there "being a man" and those types of tropes. I don't know if you know the history of blacksploitation, but I think that'd be helpful. Oh yes, the character of Cospericy Brotha was racist and was supposed to be seen that way. You were supposed to feel for Lance, not CB and Lance did end up joining the brotherhood and being seen as part of the team.
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum Conspiracy Brother is racist? You said it yourself.And how do you know that people were suppose to feel sorry for Lance at all,and not just laugh,and be like,hahaha look at the dumb honky,I think you're way,way off on the movie,I saw it more as a whitexploitation film then a black one,there were NO whites playing black's,it was very pro black,and much more jokes were at white peoples expense,and racist to me.And the director is a racist against whites to me.Some whites are.
cloudvol7 1 month ago
@cloudvol7 I don't think you know what a blacksploitation movie is and should go look it up, blacksploitation movies ARE pro-black, it was a sub-genre created in the 70's for urban audiences. I think you are way off about the movie and don't understand the origin of the themes in it or the underlined message it's sending through the jokes mad about both races.
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum It seems you are making a general claim about Kevin Smith, I mean are you even familiar with his body of work? Also, if you found the movie to be offensive or racist towards you, well that's in your right to feel that way. I personally think you are missing the point of Undercover Brother and by the comments you made, I don't think you really got what it was parodying either.
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum So it was very pro black,and had alot of racist jokes,at the expense of whites,ny point is Oh so made! And you help make it. And why are you acting like Black's are the victim's in a very pro black film,that had most of the jokes mocking whites?You are still wrong.
cloudvol7 1 month ago
@cloudvol7 XD Undercover Brother was produced by a white male, co-written by a white male. Again, you have not proven anything to me that you understand the point of this parody movie at all. The movie has jokes about both races based on stereotypes about BLACKS AND WHITES. That is why it's a PARODY. Tropic Thunder has RDJ in blackface, but there is a point to it, which is why I would not qualify it as being racist. There is a bigger picture to it.
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum A White can be racist against whites too,so I really don't care about who's the director,what's yur point? And there were ALOT less jokes about black's in Undercover brother,most were at the expense of whites! Did you think blazing saddles was racist when they said Nigger,and Nig like it's nobodies business in a comedy,even though it fit's the time period,and they call a white Honky or whitey,in UB alot,and never say Nigger in the film by a white at all.I found it racist.
cloudvol7 1 month ago
@cloudvol7 My point is that you said that "I" helped make it, meaning "I" as in black people and I wanted to show you that, no it wasn't black people making this movie as some hate vendetta against white people. If you found it racist, it is within your mental right to do so. My whole point is that you are not understand what the movie was trying to say about racial roles nor do you understand the history of blacksplotation films to understand the relevance of those jokes.
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum Well I find the movie mostly un funny,and racist,I don't care what it was trying to say,I care what it said.Are Dark comedies funny,barely ever,and if Blacksploitation film's are that racist all the time.I won't like them.
cloudvol7 1 month ago
@cloudvol7 Blacksploitation films came into play in the 1970s because of the racist film industry not giving black a place in mainstream hollywood, so if you have a problem with any race issues that come up in Blacksploitation movies, check to the racist institutions that created those problems instead of blaming those who refuse to play the parts of maids and mammys.
You obviously have not taken the time to hear what it said, because if you did you would have got the subtext.
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum Actually sometimes I do like Chris rock,but I didn't like him in Jay,and silent bob strikes back much at all,they made him too racist,he want's a coffee Decrackinated!
cloudvol7 1 month ago
@cloudvol7 Well that's the fault of Kevin Smith (the writer and a white male)
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
for me to call a show/movie racist it really have to do something racist in that show/movie
MultiMrPaTroN 1 month ago
@MultiMrPaTroN Racism is more than people in white sheets and burning crosses, not everything that is racist or has race issues has to be overtly hateful.
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum The Disney movie Fantasia(1940) has some of the best art works I've ever seen when I was a kid. Looking back I didn't see nothing wrong with the movie but now that I'm older I see why so many people hated it. The whole scene with the Centaurs is offensive. I mean you have beautiful white centaurs and the only black one is nappy headed, big lips, and was made not to be attractive. Now is it offensive? Yes. Do I hate it? Yes. Will I buy it? No. Is it racist? No, well not to me.
MultiMrPaTroN 1 month ago
@MultiMrPaTroN It not being racist to you does not make it racist overall. As a black person, of course I see something like that as being racist, not just because of the stereotype, but because of the mockery. It's made to be insulting to black people. So my question to you is: if you admit it is offensive, what makes it not racist?
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum Coal Black is racist. Scrub me Mama with a Boogie Beat is racist. Undercover Brother is racist. Soul Plane is racist. Betty Boop has racist episodes. The reason why I didn't find the black centaur scene racist was because they didn't portray him in a racist way. They didn't have him eating fried chicken or watermelon, or shucking and jiving or acting stupid or make him look like a monkey like the other movies and videos I name did. They just made him unattractive.
MultiMrPaTroN 1 month ago
@MultiMrPaTroN Undercover Brother is racist? How so? It is a satire of blacksploitation films.
But the unattractiveness is racists. It's a mockery of black features in order to make them look inferior to the white characters. That is racist in it of itself, because the reason why those types of designs exist to to show the blacks are inferior physically to whites. The intentions behind it are racist, even if they aren't doing "classical" racist things.
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
martha jones is so fabulous. I can't even believe how much bashing I have heard about her
jaidadraco 1 month ago
And also,Xena is greek,so even if in there were some ancient greek colonies in Africa (mostly the north side).there weren't many black people in Ancient Greece.Probably most of them were from Egypt and Carthage,most of them were berber...
But then again,Xena Warrior Princess was a fantasy-fiction tv serial,and it had many silly and illogical moments that didn't made sense in a historical point of view >.<
Anyway,other than that,very analytical perspective ^^
KaraAnimee 1 month ago
Still,black people are the most portrayed race in american mass-media besides white people,not asians or hispanics,not even the amerindians that have this right (because country this was initially theirs).But you are right,there is still not much equal portrayal,and shallow people who want their stuff to be commercial usually turn to stereotypes.
KaraAnimee 1 month ago
Hi MelinaPendulum, in a book how would you describe a coloured person? Because I don't want to be racist but I want the reader to know what they look like :/
chipmunkspy5 1 month ago
I always believed that the gimmick of BTVS is the fact that she IS a blond white girl. You wouldn't expect her to be a slaying machine. Using a stereotype to break a stereotype thing.
poepoz 1 month ago
Guinevere actually means "The White Enchantress", but that isn't the messed up thing about having a black Guinevere... it's that Guinevere is a disgusting slut and it's worse than having black people playing thieves and addicts 100% of the time.
Morgan Freeman in Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves may be the best fantasy genre black character ever, and the movie around him was terrible.
Th3Xp3rt 2 months ago
@Th3Xp3rt A disgusting slut? She only has an affair in the Malory and other french versions of the tale. In the older Welsh ones she and Arthur have a happy marriage, she never cheats on him and they have children. Also, I don't really see why being an adultress equates you to being a "disgusting slut" (slut shaming really?) and worse than a thief or an addict.
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum I didn't realize sluts were a protected species, I apologize. She ruins the entire kingdom in the good version of the story, and she isn't even a villain, she's an impulse controlled animal. That's what is disgusting.
Th3Xp3rt 1 month ago
@Th3Xp3rt Good version? I think both versions are equally good.
I don't like to promote slut-shaming, especially when it's a fictional character who only turns into an "impulse controlled animal" in one (very popular) version of the tale AND if she's that, then what is Lancelot?
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum He's the same. "best friend/wife stealer". Totally awful. I suppose they are both redeemed in versions, but I don't see why anyone would want themselves represented by either.
Th3Xp3rt 1 month ago
@Th3Xp3rt Well as I mentioned before in earlier versions Lancelot/Gwen does not happened...at all. Same in Merlin. They are nothing like their literary counterparts and even if they were, they are iconic characters so of course anyone of any race would want to play them. I don't see how Gwen's race makes her character a representation of me when she's based of someone else.
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum Oh, so why does the race of any character matter? I may have misunderstood the entire theme of your video. You DON'T want black characters in fantasy at all?
Th3Xp3rt 1 month ago
@Th3Xp3rt That's not what I mean. The CHARACTER of Gwen is based off a mythological character. No matter what race she is, her character is going to preform certain functions, regardless of the characters race, which is why it would not, imo, represent any minority no matter who played it. In addition, Gwen's race has never been addressed or commented on in any manner for me to see her character as "black" more of a character played by a black actress. Does that make any sense?
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum Okay. In Guinevere's case, it's just a matter of people not liking the actress for superficial reasons. Like Heimdall in 'Thor'. Loads of morons refused to watch Thor based on their choice for Heimdall.
As for both versions of the tale ... do you mean French and Welsh? I don't like the Welsh one as much.
Th3Xp3rt 1 month ago
@Th3Xp3rt I enjoy the Welsh ones and the French ones for different reasons. I'm not really fond of the women vs women themes in the French one, but I like the prose. The Welsh stories I enjoy, but I think the characters can be a little dry at times.
MelinaPendulum 1 month ago
@MelinaPendulum That's a good summation. I couldn't really express what I didn't like about it without saying "it's just boring". :)
Th3Xp3rt 1 month ago
"Well thank you for that."
This must be your polite way of telling someone to fuckoff and walking away. I can tell that you're emotionally tied to this subject, so I'll drop it for now.
ThomDarc 2 months ago
@ThomDarc lol, no It's my way of saying "well there is nothing more to say from my end." (It is hard to tell tone in text). Feel free to say what you feel, I just realize that we see this in two completely different lights and we simply don't agree, so I won't be commenting further.
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
@MelinaPendulum well it's good that we can agree to disagree. However, I would encourage you to look into the mechanisms and social forces which amplify racism rather than seeing it as something which exists in its current state on its own. Economics and power are always the true driving forces behind evil. And if you haven't, check out social theories like Anarchism before you totally disregard them.
ThomDarc 2 months ago
@ThomDarc And I would encourage you to look at the issue from the perspective of the minorities who are being poorly represented who may understand that it may be an issue of economics, but that does not change the fact that they are being further marginalized by the media.
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
@MelinaPendulum Could you be more specific and less vague?
I was specific with you via anarchism.
ThomDarc 2 months ago
@ThomDarc What is there to be specific about? I explained in this video the issues about representation of marginalized people and you responded with talking about economics and power being the reason, while seeming to not see that regardless of the "reason" it's still a problem for those marginalized groups. That's the whole reason I made this video: of course there are social, historical, economic reasons for these stereotypes, but it does not change the end result for peoples.
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
@MelinaPendulum Problems concerning how the media messes things up seems a bit tame in comparison to something like apartheid or how China refused to serve people at restaurants during the Olympics based on ethnicity. What I meant was there some specific site I could look at to gain a better understanding (besides the one you linked above - and preferably one with a more critical objective approach)?
ThomDarc 2 months ago
@MelinaPendulum You deal with the problem by dealing with the cause correct? Many anthropologist see racism as only coming to an end or as a minimal nuisance only after a paradigm shift. While you failed to show Buffy as more than an outlier, I agree with your assertions in some ways. One only has to look at something like Transformers 2 or Santa Buddies to see that. However, minorities are not the only victims.
ThomDarc 2 months ago
@ThomDarc I never asserted that they were marginalized groups don't just include people of color: it's gays, disabled people, religious peoples, etc.
I did not fail in anything, you just do not agree with me.
No, there are no sites I could recommend to you, but I would recommend talking to actual people and trying to understand how these issues effect them in their day-to-day life. I would recommend some Tim Wise books.
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
@MelinaPendulum Well he certainly sounds progressive and helpful:
watch?v=DGWuNzIsVWo
ThomDarc 1 month ago
@ThomDarc
derailingfordummies.(dot)com/#overemotional
derailingfordummies(dot)com/#butbut
derailingfordummies(dot)com/#wrong
derailingfordummies(dot)com/#angry
derailingfordummies(dot)com/#moreimportantly
childofthemoor 2 months ago in playlist Favorite videos
@childofthemoor I'm sorry but did you say something?
ThomDarc 2 months ago
@childofthemoor Ah ok, I see what your getting at. I don't see what the problem is with having a complex conversation between two people who don't totally agree but who maybe able to establish a dialectic. I personally have no emotional investment in this as you seem to assert.
ThomDarc 2 months ago
@childofthemoor So from the link you gave me, the only solution is to just not ever engage in a conversation on the matter. Since you're the expert, how should I talk about it?
ThomDarc 2 months ago
One more thing...
Sorry, but in the context of the show, Kendra had to die. ;)
WhiteEyebrowAuthor 2 months ago
Just to follow up, I think the offensiveness of this double-standard comes into play when we explore the flip side of the coin. Nobody bats an eyelash when presented with Elizabeth Taylor as Cleopatra, Charlton Heston as Moses, or Judi Bowker as Andromeda (she should've been Ethiopian); however, if you allow an actress of color to play Guinevere, there is no shortage purists ready to cry foul (and dare I say express outrage if she would've happened to have been dark-skinned.)
WhiteEyebrowAuthor 2 months ago
Great post.
I think you touch upon issues that exist in a wider social context. Part of it is simple human nature; humans eschew what is foreign: difference equals deficit. For Hollywood, this reasoning makes sense on the business end--audiences want to pay to see someone like themselves on the big screen. And, yes, these attitudes may be changing, albiet slowly, and America may be labeled as a "melting pot", but America, nevertheless, has a very eurocentric psychology ingrained in its culture.
WhiteEyebrowAuthor 2 months ago
I have gotten into a lot of arguments over the Gwen issue and basically respond the same way as you do "So you're talking about a show that has magic and dragons in it and you argue that Gwen being black is unrealistic?"
I started to really roll my eyes at anyone who makes a comment like this because I found that a lot of them don't like Gwen's character to begin with ..which is frustrating
antica 2 months ago
It's built off ignorance and people are too damn lazy to research and SEE/WITNESS the truth! Color is too damn important in everyday society and it's because we are sooooo superficial and vain! Tell me why we also have blacks on shows who personally aren't that attractive?! BUT we have sooo many other goood looking black people and i mean sexy! ones! and they never appear? To me television tries to acknowledge whites as beautiful and black is not! WTF not true! all races have beauties and uglies
TheBestseller1 2 months ago
@MelinaPendulum Damn it (as an answer 2 ur reply. Thanks by the way).... & about my characters filling up space, I'm still working out the details 4 the story, but if a character has no purpose i'll just get rid or it so I'll make sure they hav a purpose now:). (& I didn't kill him off because he is gay. Loads of other characters die off too. & I've tried to make him not my token gay. Other characters are gay, lesbian, or homosexual. & they survive. Probably should've explained better
Maikkacrackshiper13 2 months ago
As a child, I never thought the Crows from DUMBO were racist constructs until rewatching it much later. In fact, I never heard the name "Jim Crows" until just now.
TomMSTie1138 2 months ago
just because there are a lot of interesting secondary characters killed off all the time (of all colors) very frequently. And you know Joss Whedon likes to stir shit up by killing off even the most prominent of characters...still in mourning over Tara, btw. But yes, I do see your overall points and do not disagree, its just I think Buffy is sort of a show that can't be generalized as too emblematic of the normal underpresentation of POC as it has its own rules and is radically unconventional.
frumaatholoid 2 months ago
@frumaatholoid I love Buffy too, but just because it has it's own rules doesn't remove it from the racial problem. POC/Maginalized people do not exist in a bubble separate from historical stigma. Am I saying Whedon is homophobic/racist? No, but his killing Tara is still a stereotype of killing off gay characters, regardless of the fact that it would have been Oz. There is a history of killing of gay characters and by doing so he perpetuates that same stereotypical trope.
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
You know, if I had to guess, the real reason they killed off Kendra in Buffy is because the writers had already been planning on introducing Faith for the next season, thus they needed Kendra dead to logically facilitate that. I understand what you're saying about introducing these really cool POC characters just to quickly kill them off, but maybe Buffy isn't the best show to be an example of the under-representation of POC (cont)
frumaatholoid 2 months ago
Hmm now I think of it, I have to disagree with you on your skin colour having only disadvantages. I have a collegue at university who is dark skinned and can wear all bright colours for makeup and clothing and looks amazing in it, even yellow and orange. A pale person trying to wear those colours usually looks like a total clown, expecially with eyeshadow, on dark skin it looks amazing. Also bright hairornaments look way better on black hair. Envy-inspiring for someone stuck with pastels...
Goldkehlchen20 2 months ago
This video has an interesting implication: how would a fantasy based on African history work without appearing either a novelty, or something superficial, like voodoo and tribes. It also hit me that zombies come from African myths, but it has been appropriated as a white nerd interest.
Africa has had a few of its own great civilizations every bit as interesting as Rome or China or the Mesoamericans.
kwanarchive 2 months ago
If a character is killed off, it doesn't mean they are not strong, also. It's difficult to win, really. Many people probably include characters who are women, black, latino, gay, disabled, etc, because they think it'll add to the story, not for PC quotas, then they get bombared by people telling them 'OH, THAT CHARACTER SAID A NASTY PHRASE SO ALL WOMAN ARE BITCHES NOW?' or 'Oh, that character died, so all black people are weak in your world now?' Sides, most characters that die are badass. xD
PurpleBadger 2 months ago
Everything is being boiled down FAR too much. You are a woman, Melina, as well as a black woman, and proud of both. Buffy is a powerful symbol for femanism (not in the crazy dungerees, kill men way, but in the natural way), and I don't think her skin colour has to matter for that to apply. We can never get to an equal footing if there has to be a male character of every race and a female of every race, and a gay character of every race, and a transgender character of every race.
PurpleBadger 2 months ago
@PurpleBadger I don't think she's saying that.
Nosaltypeanut 2 months ago
@Nosaltypeanut No, but I believe her sources were.
PurpleBadger 2 months ago
@PurpleBadger That is very easy for you to say PB because you are (according to your icon I'm assuming) white. You are represented. There are plenty of shows that show you in a positive light. You do not have to search for representation in genres you like because you are represented. I was not always proud of being a black woman. I HATED being black because of the stereotypes associated with my race for most of my childhood.
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
@MelinaPendulum The media never helped me be secure in myself. When I watched Disney movies, even the characters who I liked (Belle) as much as I could admire them, they never represented me. When you are told by the media on a constant basis that blacks hate to read and you idolize a princess who likes to read and see that she's white as a kid in the back of my mind I felt like if I was white people would assume I was smarter/like to read.
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
@MelinaPendulum When you live in a society that says that white, slim and blonde is the ideal and the heroine of your show is white, slim and blonde and the people of color in the show are killed off before they can even be of worth...shouldn't that be something people might see as a little odd?
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
@MelinaPendulum I don't disagree, I don't know what it must be like to feel underrepresented, at least in terms of race. I hate the way most Hollywood movies have the most uninterestnig, witless, pointless female characters so I can understand on that level. But, I just think the attitude of always looking for pitfalls in characters, numbers of women, black people, gays, what they act like, etc, isn't a healthy one.
PurpleBadger 2 months ago
@PurpleBadger For example, I am registered blind, I have very bad eyesight. But there's really very few Blind characters avalible, nevermind in lead roles. (Yey Daredevil, and even he has superpowers, so...) There's the badass blind warriors from anime and Eastern film, or the random blind old character in Western movies. That's it. I don't let it affect me because I understand that these are stories, and stories don't always have positive messages, are not meant to be there to---
PurpleBadger 2 months ago
@PurpleBadger please people. A story is insular unto itself.
It's difficult to explain. I enjoy seeing a wide variety of races, classes, etc represented. But I also enjoy seeing characters who are nothing like me yet have a simmilliar hobby, simmilliar philosophy, react to something in a way I could understand. Wether they are male, female, black, white, christian, gay, disabled, etc.
PurpleBadger 2 months ago
@PurpleBadger A story is not insular to itself. Especially if it takes place in our world. Especially when you are of a racial/ethic group, because there are stereotypes that have formed the way characters have written and many of them have been perpetuated and when people still use the same stereotypes from the 1960's about people, that is an issue.
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
@PurpleBadger I don't want to play the "Whose Got it Worse Olympics" with you because I don't understand what is to be blind and I never will. But as a black woman I have to deal with watching so many horrible/backwards stereotypes portrayed about my gender and people at the same time. Stereotypes that say I'm: lazy, a magical nergo, a sidekick, a jive-talker, an angry woman, a sassy woman, an overweight asexual, an oversexed hussy, single mother, comedy relief, undereducated...
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
@MelinaPendulum I can understand on some level, but I never will understand what It's like for you. My view is kind of based on my own belief about the media. It affects our world, and because of that, we have to change stories themselves, and I hate that. There can never be a female character who is cruel and messed up without people making assumptions about what it says about women, if she is truely evil or if her daddy is to blame, blah blah blah...
PurpleBadger 2 months ago
@MelinaPendulum You should do a video about Black female characters you enjoyed. I'm interested, and It'd be positive. =D
PurpleBadger 2 months ago
@PurpleBadger What do you mean it's not healthy? I shouldn't be concerned with the way my race/culture is portrayed in the media. It's not going to change unless people drive to change it and that means addressing racial issues even if other people don't see it, because your frame of reference is not mine. You may not see a racial issue where I will, because it represents part of my reality.
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
@MelinaPendulum But you didn't see a problem in Buffy until someone told you there was. Now you see one, and it does not stop you liking the show, because you are intellegant. But, the human mind makes patterns, and you perhaps see patterns too far, whereas I do not see them far enough.
Also, I am not meaning to say that you shouldn't be concerned. Please don't put words in my mouth because I'm finding it hard to explain myself and my view. I don't mean to be offensive.
PurpleBadger 2 months ago
@PurpleBadger I didn't see it because I wasn't looking for it and it just wasn't something I was thinking about. I was watching it for entertainment, but I didn't think about it. Yet, when I did think about it i couldn't believe I missed it. We are not taught to look for these things, because there is a mentality that we live in a colorblind society and that says if you see those things you are trying to purposely offend yourself.
I'm sorry for putting words in your mouth.
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
@PurpleBadger What I take from this and what I actually feel is that race will always matter until people of color see themselves represented in all types of roles, the same way white people do. It's easy to say I don't see color when all I'm looking at 99% of the time is myself...that's why some white people are annoyed that Guinnivere (sp?) on Merlin is mixed race. It's like the world is going normal and suddenly...wtf?! What's she doing there? For me, it's like where the hell am I?
Nosaltypeanut 2 months ago
@PurpleBadger As a child, I noticed that all the black cartoon characters had monkey faces. I wanted the black girl on Josie & the Pussycats to have a lead role, to be seen as beautiful, etc. I noticed in the Christmas Story that the robbers were black. My 10 year daughter notices now that usually the girl with the dark hair (like hers is evil). She also noticed that in the film Rapunzel that when her hair turned brown it was because her hair was dead.
Nosaltypeanut 2 months ago
I kinda' get it, though. "It's racist, but..." or "It's sexist, but..." There is a line between morality and truth that needs to be drawn. For example, many Disney movies are racist, but I like them. To say I do not, or that one writer's stereotypical and time-period portayl of a women or black people has ruined my love for them would be lying to seem moral. You can not like the racist or sexist elements, and still like the movie. (TBC)
PurpleBadger 2 months ago
@PurpleBadger I sorta agree with you. I used to listen to music because of the beat and I just ignored and made excuses for the rude lyrics. Because I've decided to stop making excuses for enjoying this music, I actually don't enjoy it anymore. When my daughter tries to play it in the car, I just can't stand the profanity anymore.
Nosaltypeanut 2 months ago
@Nosaltypeanut That's the thing. The beat is what hooks you in, and you can't help but be addicted and enjoy it because it appeals to your mind and (possibly) your soul. It doesn't matter what lyrics are stuck on - all though songs with meaningful lyrics will, in my expirience, last longer and resenate deeper with you.
PurpleBadger 2 months ago
@PurpleBadger I just want you to know PB, that I love debating with you and I'm never mad or angry at you because you are a smart lady and I like have someone to banter with so, before we continue any more XOXXOXOXOXOXOXXX <3
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
@MelinaPendulum I love you too, Lina. You too are very smart, which is good! It's good we think differently about the media and storytelling and ...River Song. Makes it more fun. :P
You're just scaring me. xD I have a black female in the book I am writing, who for the majority really does seem like a defensive bitch, and later developes. She also happens to be bisexual. Stereotypically, she fills the role of 'That Queen Bee' type, though she is very intellegant---
PurpleBadger 2 months ago
@PurpleBadger When writing such a character I try to think of her as any of my others, though I really can not know what her culture means to her. Or, the more simple fact of writing males. You build them up from nothing, not focussing on their main aspect of seperation. ...Or try too. Who knows what that leads too?
PurpleBadger 2 months ago
@PurpleBadger Well the thing that I feel that the biggest mistake made when white people write black people and other peoples of color is that they make them "white people dipped in chocolate." They are black, but nothing about them social, culturally, etc is black. There is more to race than color and a lot of times that is completely ignored.
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
@MelinaPendulum I've heard that. They say it for females writing males and visa versa too. It's hard to find the balance, and not make the character simply a portayl of their physical/cultural aspects. QnQ
PurpleBadger 2 months ago
@MelinaPendulum Sorry, jumping in on your thread but I write and that thing you mentioned is one of the things I struggle with - I don't know first hand what it's like to be Asian or Black or anything like that, so even when I want one of my main characters to be a different race, I don't know how to write it right. It feels like I'd either be accused of writing a racial stereotype or writing them as white-but-not-white and research doesn't seem to help. TBC...
lannapeanut 2 months ago
@MelinaPendulum Cont.: What I wanted to ask was, do you think it's better for white writers to try writing POC & risk getting them wrong or to stick to what they know so they don't unintentionally offend an entire race of people by misrepresenting them?
I have minor characters who are POC but I struggle with the main characters thing. =/
lannapeanut 2 months ago
I bet you just love Tyler Perry and his treasure trove of stereotypes.
curlyfryzzz1 2 months ago
@curlyfryzzz1 Even God thinks there is too much Jesus in TP's movies
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago 2
@MelinaPendulum lol
Nosaltypeanut 2 months ago
I try to put all my characters in a Positive light. I just worry cuz my reaso for putting many races may seem for "token" sake, but I did give everyone development & try to put everyone in a positive light. Oh well. I'll c how it turns out
Maikkacrackshiper13 2 months ago
I'd like to point out something w/ your BtVS ex. There was nothing racist abt what you brought up. The only reason it seems racist to some ppl is b/c they killed off ppl who just happened to be of a certain color. There are obviously no intentions of racism, b/c if it were racist it'd be a lot more obvious. Racism is intentional hate toward a grp of a certain color. & it shldn't matter what Buffy's skin color is. What shld matter is tht she's a good influence regardless of what she looks like
FlyFree4evr 2 months ago
@FlyFree4evr On the other hand, I do agree that racism is caused by both malice and ignorance. But, they often coincide. The only reason why someone would be racist is because they fear what they don't know. And because of their ignorance, they lash out at people just because they can't handle the thought of being equal to someone who just so happens to have different skin pigment.
FlyFree4evr 2 months ago
@FlyFree4evr It's not racist, but it is a race issue. When it comes down to it...it does matter. Like I said Buffy is still a good role model, but how do you think it effects young girls of other races to see that the only characters on the shows you look like them on a physical level get killed off? As someone who spend my childhood thinking that white people were better, an I certainly didn't get that from anywhere but media at that time in my life, it matters A LOT
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
@MelinaPendulum a question. In my book my golden trio is all European/white. None of them die. On top of that I have Hispanic brother & sister. The boy is gay & he dies. The girl is bisexual. A half black boy. He has half-brothers & sisters that r full black. A half Asian girl & her little sister. & one of the villains is asian. Does this seem like I'm being too "token" especially if my 3 main characters r white?
Maikkacrackshiper13 2 months ago
@Maikkacrackshiper13 Why are you killing the gay boy because that falls under the trope of "killing off gays" as for the other characters, are they important or do you just have them there to fill space?
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
@MelinaPendulum Im interracial, so I know how yo feel, but I think ur overreacting a lbit. I mean, I love Harry potter. How man asain characters (I consider myself asian. I'm half)? One. & for a little while I loved cho Chang, but if I'm honest I relate more hermione even if I've barely got any white in me. I really don't mind that I there aren't many asians in... Anything much.
Maikkacrackshiper13 2 months ago
@Maikkacrackshiper13 If lack of inclusion towards your race doesn't bother you that's your personal opinion, however I think it's a problem so I will continue to voice it, especially for my own racial group. However, I think it should bother you, imo.
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
ANd DC took That rolemodel trait from Barbara Gordon when they erased the shootimg in the reboot . She's still kick but I"m going to Miss that part,
ThePinkDragon 2 months ago
I'm Phyiscally challeged Thanks for Bringimg that up!
ThePinkDragon 2 months ago
@ThePinkDragon No problem! You guys get it rough when it comes to positive representation.
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
Buffy also had that racist ~gypsy curse~ stuff with Angel. I love Buffy, but that makes me cringe.
beansidhebaby 2 months ago
And I honestly do love your videos despite our debates lol and I think you are a really nice person, and when you show things like your book/dvd/tv show collection I just think "I LOVE THAT TOO!"
PuffyAmiYumi 2 months ago
@PuffyAmiYumi Oh no problem :D, like I said in the holiday video I don't mind the debates and we all learn something from it (hug) :)
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
great topic and always there's nothing you said that i could say better myself :)
ladyjosephinelover 2 months ago
2. In Merlin, Gwen doesn't seem much of a throw away or a marginal character (compared to Merlin and Jock king boy ....well maybe). Yeah, she doesn't kick a lot of ass or throw spells. However, I still think Gwen is a strong and prominent character.
ThomDarc 2 months ago
@ThomDarc How did I say she wasn't? All I addressed is that there are many fans of Merlin who take issue with her character being played by a black women.
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
@MelinaPendulum "How did I say she wasn't? All I addressed is that there are many fans of Merlin who take issue with her character being played by a black women. "
Sorry ...my bad.
ThomDarc 2 months ago
I love how your talking so much about race in the media and television, I'm doing a paper on the topic and this helps google more idea and find more informaion thanks!
Icy199512 2 months ago
I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. If Buffy has racist overtones, wouldn't it make sense that Joss Whedon's other works would follow a similar pattern: Firefly, Angel, Dollhouse. But since you're not focused on solely Joss Whedon, let's throw in some more examples: Star Trek, Blade, Terminator (Sarah Conner Chronicles), Star Gate, Doctor Who, Planet of the Apes. Are all these shows now racist shows too?
ThomDarc 2 months ago
@ThomDarc I think it not really "racist" in the sense that, for some of these shows, one race is BETTER than the other because of racial differences. Maybe more... unbalanced?
ornamentelle 2 months ago
@ornamentelle So there is a problem because not enough minorities are present? I thought Melina was arguing from the standpoint that there were no strong permanent characters of different races in modern day TV shows.
ThomDarc 2 months ago
@ThomDarc You doing exactly what I'm talking about. I think that those shows have racial issues, that does not make them racists, but it is a problem when you look at these shows, especially since I am black and sci-fi/fantasy is what I enjoy watching and those racial issues are these. It's not making a mountain out of a mole hill as you call it, it's acknowledging that we are not as progressive as we like think we are.
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
@MelinaPendulum I guess I'm a little slow - what am I doing? Sadly societies and cultures don't change overnight. In some respects (like on the issue of race), American society has made very fundamental changes over the last 50 years in terms of media. However, corporate media makes tv shows based on demographics and stereotypes. They're more concerned with profit rather than race.
ThomDarc 2 months ago
@ThomDarc Making excuses for racial issues. Your comment about "mountain out of a mole hill" which makes it sound as if I'm going out of my way to be insulted about the shows you mentioned. :(
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
@MelinaPendulum I'm just trying to clarify what you are trying to say ...my intention is not to start throwing mud or get people heated. I just feel you are somewhat going overboard with your view. It seems more of a glass is half full or half empty kind of thing. Anyway, I'm sorry if I upset you.
ThomDarc 2 months ago
@ThomDarc You are not upsetting me, I but the frown face so you wouldn't think I was attack you lol. If you think I'm going overboard with my view can you please explain why you think that though?
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
@MelinaPendulum 1. I think you are going overboard in that you're tying race as an issue into situations and characters where it doesn't really fit. I think your primary examples were Buffy and Merlin. I'm not even going to try and make excuses for Disney. You made a good case about Buffy. But, how many of the Slayers before Buffy died and were white? However, this seems to be an outlier rather than the norm - since I cited other examples.
ThomDarc 2 months ago
@ThomDarc 1. So you don't think it means anything the only Slayers we see from the past on the show are POC and they are all killed? Nor do you think it means anything that Kendra was killed to prove a point about her training in comparison to Buffy only to bring in another white Slayer (Faith) who was a long lasting dynamic character? We can assume that since the potentials came from different backgrounds that a Slayer can be any race.
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
@MelinaPendulum I think you could see it both ways. Buffy was formulated as a blonde white ditzy girl who had to become more that what she was on the outside. They could have easily have written the past Slayers off as Caucasian princesses, but they didn't. Buffy is the one good example you can cite that has racial problems of some kind. However, you still haven't addressed how that show is not an outlier of your perception. What is the problem with the other shows I mentioned?
ThomDarc 2 months ago
@ThomDarc Yes and because they didn't those characters have to be judged as POC under how those characters are treated in that genre. What do you mean about "you still haven't addressed how that show is not an outlier of your perception" ? As for some of the shows I can only comment on the ones I know: Firefly, take Asian language and culture, but there are no Asians. Blade, has no culture as a man of color could easily be white, Doctor Who, Martha had a horrible story as is hated by
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
@MelinaPendulum a majority of the fandom. Didn't watch Planet of the Apes, Terminator (Sarah Conner Chronicles), Star Gate and as for Star Trek the actress who played Uhura was treated horribly by some of the higher ups.
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
@MelinaPendulum What I mean by outlier is that I don't think you have demonstrated how the failings of Buffy is the norm. Firefly seems to treat Asian culture in a similar way to Neuromancer and Shadowrun. It is present because it has become widespread - similar to how there is so much English stuff in present day China ...and yet China doesn't have too many Western people. As for Blade, I didn't know that race and culture had to be linked.
ThomDarc 2 months ago
@ThomDarc That's not the point when it comes to firelfy. If this world is as intermixed as it shows why is there Asian culture, but no Asian characters in it, it takes place in the future and by the last names of some of the characters, it shows that we have intermixed. As for Blade...there is more to be black (or any race of that matter) than simply looking like that race. As for the failings of Buffy being the norm: it is and all you have to do is watch television to see that.
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
@MelinaPendulum Race and culture are separate categories. For instance, the Native Americans had vastly different cultures and languages before European colonization. However, we still tend to stereotype them as all living in teepees and wearing feather headdresses. As for Firefly, I'll drop the point as we are probably going to wind up going in circles.
ThomDarc 2 months ago
@ThomDarc Yes, but culture still comes up when you are talking about race, because how you are raised breeds culture. Also your example only proves a social ignorance of culture not the absence of it.
MelinaPendulum 2 months ago
@MelinaPendulum Culture can be linked to race through social stereotypes, but they are still separate categories. But your argument concerning Blade could easily be linked to almost any character regardless of race. The only real culture in America is the culture of consumerism. Racial/cultural identifications in America seem to be utilized mostly on the grounds of separation, division, and exclusive solidarity.
ThomDarc 2 months ago