@sirach Baha'is are not permitted to engage in sexual relationships outside of the marriage. And within a marriage, it is to be with the marital partner. So everyone has to be celibate until married. But one must remember that all of the judeo-christian religions were written with celibacy until marriage in their laws. This is not unique to the Baha'is. It's simply the newest religion to say it.
First it's the Baha'i Faith, not Bahaism. Pronounced "Ba hi" Founded by Baha'u'llah, pronounced "Ba Howl Lah" One God, One relidion, One Mankind. Do a little research.
@TheDelmont Okay pal, I've specifically, repeated answered those points so many times now it is absurd. Could YOU please do soem research and look at the comments.
Guys please like this comment and help spread the word to STOP viewing covenant breaking videos on youtube, the more views it gets the more popular the video will become and thus show up in every bahai-related video we watch. This is comment with opposition to covenant breakers and humbly wishes to peacefully educate the Truth to all.
"O believers, verily the light that dawned on Abraham and Moses, that shone as the Sun in Galilee, that glimmered with a few lingering rays in Mecca, has arisen again in its full splendour. Jews, Christians, Muhammadans, Sikhs and those who worship God in the varied splendor of his incarnations, it is truly a light that lightens the world". (XXII, Ch.7, verse 12)
If you look at these religions strictly in historical context, it makes perfect sense. Everything is backed up by facts. You cannot simply throw a quote out there and try to assume what the message is referring to. The only thing you accomplished here was making yourself look ignorant and uneducated.
There is nothing called "Bahai-ism" It is known as the Baha'i Faith. or simply Baha'i. And you could all really stand to be less judgmental because most of you don't have any clue what you're talking about.
Scripture also indicated that before the Jewish Messiah (Jesus) appeared, Elijah would appear with highly visible signs (Isa 40:3). Christians believe that this transpired with the appearance of John the Baptist (Mark 1:2-8). When the same Christian apologetic principles are applied here, we also find that Baha'u'llah is the fulfillment of the Second Coming.
"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. " - "1Th 5:2
Again, so many people and their own ways but yet they heard you out. Amazing. Thanks for doing the research sir and at least having people listen. For the one person that said there were billions of Muslims, well, to rationalize that out, there HAS been a population increase within time that has to be accounted for, it isnt black and white math. Number of followers and rapidity of growth is only one factor, besides, what again is it that that person is aguing about? That Muslims populate more?
The corpses of the founders of this religion have barely gone cold in their graves and already we have a soap opera tin pot power struggle raging at the top
This is the religion that wants to supersede all religions? Its already dead in the water and proved itself just as silly as all religions that came before it. Religion is over folks crushed by science- face it, forget about it, and join the 21st century.
i'm curious, please describe in detail the power struggle at the top that you so knowingly speak of? Since you are fortunate to know about it, please spread the word so we can be as equally informed as you are.
Science and Religion can coexist in the 21st century. Its interesting to see such one track minds.
For the comical sordid details of the Bahai petty power struggles, schisms, infighting, back biting, divine leadership claiming, etc.; look up "covenant breakers™ Pat. Pend."
For a revolving cast of characters, just to name a few, look up Ruhi Afnan, Munib Shahid, Husayn, Riaz, Mehrangiz, Charles Mason Remey, Joel Bray Marangella, Mírzá Muhammad `Alí, Ruth White.
Presently science and religion pretend to coexist by science ignoring religion and religion denying science.
Baha'i "sects" membership has historically ranged from about 1-6 members and tend to last just for a couple of years. Would you consider Catholicism as having divided into new sects because every now and then an individual convinces himself (and occasionally some close friends and family) that he has more authority than the Pope?Of course not. Every challenge the Baha'i Faith faces is followed by Victory, and simply provides us with an opportunity to demonstrate anew the integrity of the Faith.
Indeed, the impact of Baha'i sectarianism on the "true" Baha'i Faith has so far been similar to the impact of the Baha'i Faith on the religions of the world: inconsequential. But if you study the history of religion you will find that it usually takes a couple of millennia or at least a few centuries for schisms to really get rockin' 'n rollin'.
Baha'i has a much greater obstacle to overcome. Namely that it is a religion -- an amalgam of hokum, nonsense, drivel, pompous sanctimony, myth, and what ever truth it contains could have been come up with by any moderately intelligent sixth-grader.
fctchk, check out "The Hidden Words", "Tablet to the World", "The Kitab-i-Iqan", "The Kitab-i-Aqdas" and the "Seven Valleys" by Baha'u'llah. Some of these books were written by Baha'u'llah over a very short time frame (e.g. Kitab-i-Iqan over 2 days and 2 nights). His Writings are incredibly beautiful with unsurpassed eloquence. His teachings on the equality of races, of men and women, of the need for unity between nations etc. all long preceded their implementation in society.
The scientific study of human biological variation has shown that racial categories lack biological validity. There are no races. Did God not know this when he last spoke to Baha'u'llah? Or did he forget to mention it to him?
Moreover, Christ (even if he didn't exist) clearly said: "love everybody". What part of "everybody" did Baha'u'llah not understand?
Mohammed - may he leave us in peace - forbade discrimination. He would now wouldn't he, why limit the amount of his followers.
Baha'u'llah might have preached the equality of men and women but forgot about it when prohibiting women from becoming members of the Universal House of Justice. What part of Universal Justice did he not understand?
Science has also debunked his, for lack of a better word, stupid notions about homosexuality.
The need for unity between nations? Gosh, what? really? Is THAT what we need? You don't say.
Pretty accurate so far. I haven't seen Pt 2 yet. The name of the Manifestation of whom you speak is pronounced /ba-ha-u-la/OR/ba-ha-o-la/ and the religion is usually referred to as 'the Baha'i Faith' rather than Bahaism. Now, when you spoke of the 'prophets' or 'Manifestations' of God it is important to make a distinction between the two, especially when referring to Islam. The distinction is made clear in the Quran where Manifestation is Rasul and prophet is Nabi. Muhammad was the last Nabi.
When Muhammad said this is the perfect and final religion of God He was talking about "The" religion of God. There's only one religion, and only Manifestations can "update" it.
Funny - Muhammad did not interpret it that way, his companions did not interpret it that way, his family did not interpret it that way - yet it took a mullah to come and interpret it in Arabic (not in the language of his people!)
I have also read a lot of Islamic history - I am acquainted with the Shia sources (since Bahaullah was from a Shia country) and I have also the living proof of over 1 billion muslims now and billions of books written by muslims in the past. Nobody interprets it as you do. In fact, "the seal of prophets" was taken always as "the final one".
Check the hadith that are used to interpret the Quran. This same hadith Bahais use to prove "the Mahdi" as Bab! So, you can't pick and choose people!!
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.
"And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two Prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."
It is no surprise then that Baha'i faith proclaims Baha'u'llah to be the second coming of Christ. Jesus Himself warned us in the gospel of Matthew concerning the end times: "Then if any one says to you, 'Lo, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christ's and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect" (Matthew 24:23-24).
Miracles are only a proof to those present. You have never seen Jesus perform a miracle, your only knowledge of it is from the accounts of His disciples.
If miracles were the standard for judgment in that regard, the Bab performed a miracle in front of ten thousand eyewitnesses including western reporters which fulfilled biblical prophecies and mirrored the events described in Christ's crucifixion.
In Deuteronomy 18:15--19 , Moses predicted that God would raise up a Jewish Prophet with a special message. Anyone who did not believe this prophet would be judged by God. This passage has been traditionally interpreted as referring to Messiah. Genesis 3:15 is also understood by many to refer to Jesus as the seed of the woman who would crush the head of the serpent.
"but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no knowledge, but only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him not."
Once again, you have stated before that because Jesus was a descendant of Abraham that classified Him as a Jew. According to that same standard, so was Baha'u'llah, for He was also descended from Abraham.
Christ is absolutely unique among all who ever lived. He is unique in his supernatural nature, in his superlative character, and in his life and teaching. No other world teacher has claimed to be God. Even when the followers of some prophet deified their teacher, there is no proof given for that claim that can be compared to the fulfillment of prophecy, the sinless and miraculous life, and the resurrection.
You were saying that the Messiah would be descended from Abraham, and that because Baha'u'llah was Iranian that He wouldn't count. But Baha'u'llah was descended from Abraham, it's a refutation of your flawed logic.
Unlike the allah-God of Islam, and Baha'is, the God of the Bible reached out to us by sending his Son to earth to die for our sins. Muhammad offered no sure hope for salvation, only guidelines for working oneself into Allah's favor. Christ provided all that is needed to get us to heaven in his death, 'For Christ also died once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that he might bring us to God' ( 1 Peter 3:18 ).
The Bahá'í's change the meaning as they do with everything else in many of the religions saying, it is with the inward eye of understanding. The biblical meaning is with the natural eye just as it is described in Mt.24:30" At that time the Son of Man will appear in the sky & all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will SEE the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory"
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
You say that it's "changing the meanings" but your literal interpretation is no different from the Jews'. Jesus did not literally rule by the sword or sit on the throne of david either.
I have a verse for you:
John 10:6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
"Therefore God also has highly exalted Him [Jesus] and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:9-11)
Baha'u'llah recieved that name at the conference of Badasht, where most of the Bab's disciples received their titles, such as Quddus and Tahirih. The Bayan was written while the Bab was in Maku, your accusation that Baha'u'llah stole it is entirely unfounded.
Baseless lies are hardly a Christ-like way to argue.
"Prove it"? Okay, go and read the Dawnbreakers, the chapter regarding the conference of Badasht. Or if you're lazy, go to the Wikipedia page, it probably has sources there too.
And any source will tell you that the Bayan was revealed while the Bab was in Maku, that you do not know that requires no proof on my part.
You certainly haven't "proven" any of your false accusations or backed them up with so much as a mote of evidence, and yet you ironically demand me prove mine.
Jesus has four(4) Titles: In Matthew 1:1 he is called the Son of David and the Son of Abraham. In Luke 3:38 he is called the Son of Adam and the Son of God. As the Son of David, it means that Jesus is king. As the Son of Abraham, it means that Jesus is a Jew. As the Son of Adam, it means that Jesus is a man. As the Son of God, it means that Jesus is God. This fourfold portrait of the messianic person as presented by the genealogies is that of the Jewish God-Man King.
Are you so ignorant you fail to see the meaning of ONE and ONLY HOLY MESSIAH?
It helps to know the term: "one and only Son" as in Jn 3:16 Jn 1:18; Heb 11:17). Monogenēs is clearly a relational term when Jesus is called the "only begotten," as in, say, John 1:18. Here He is called "unique God" who explains or reveals God the Father (cf. John 14:6-11 ; also Isaiah 6:1 ff. with John 12:40-41) And by knowing the Jesus of scriptures you can look to the one returning.
The word translated "begotten" (e.g., KJV; NASB) comes from the Greek word ....
monogenēs:
monos, meaning, "alone" or "only" and genos, meaning, "kind" or "type." - "only kind," "unique one," or "one and only." (This verse denies false pretenders like the lying Persian Baha'bu'llah)
Jesus claimed to be the only access to God, His Father (John 14:6--7). He claimed to be able to forgive sins (Matt. 9:2--7). He claimed to be the judge of all mankind and to dishonor Him was to dishonor God His Father (John 5:22--23). He claimed to have had glory with His Father before the world began (John 17:5).
Bahá'u'lláh - a proven false prophet of Allah claimed that he was the return of Christ. - (The Return of Christ p.2) It is questionable whether Bahá'u'lláh claimed this for himself or his faithful followers - i.e. relatives - bestowed this upon him afterwards, and presented as mystical Sufi poems with circular logic.
Jesus warned us about false prophets like Baha'u'llah and you who claimed private visions and dreams that no one witnessed!?
His first descent from Heaven was culminated in a birth. Why indeed do you say it would be impossible for His second descent from Heaven to be so?
When He ascended into Heaven, He was hated and denied by most of the peoples of the earth, and the false faithful who still awaited their Messiah. Indeed, as He went away, so He came again.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 doesn't indicate that Jesus will return in the night, anymore than it states in 1 Thessalonians 5:4 referenced above that Jesus will return in the day. There is concurrently daytime and nighttime somewhere on the earth. The Scripture states that Jesus' Second Coming will be an unexpected and sudden "surprise," - "like a thief" is a surprise.
Thessalonians 5:2-4, 2 Peter 3:10, Luke 12:36-40, Revelation 3:3 and 16:15 all indicate that the Second Coming and the Day of the Lord shall come "as a thief" at an hour which "ye shall not know"
You continue to cling to the old heaven of Christ's first coming, when 2 Peter 3:13 tells you that there shall be a new heaven and earth.
And true to the scripture's promsie, you "know not the hour" which it came.
Come now, do you have anything more than propaganda speeches and name calling? I have asked for prophecies foretelling Christ stronger and more unequivocal than those for the Bab and Baha'u'llah and you have not provided thusfar.
Baha'is are refuted and repudiated! The belief in Baha'u'llah largely reduce to a point of faith—is one willing to accept him as the manifestation of God, in the absence of objective evidence. Of course, Christianity also calls for faith, but the Christian has strong and demonstrable evidence along with that faith.
Moses and Elijah are indeed two of God's many Prophets, but they are not the ones mentioned in Revelation 11:3, and their ministries do not coincide with the time mentioned. How indeed to you explain how that particular number of years, all coinciding with 1844?
The messianic verses from the Bible cited by Baha'is as referring to Baha'u'llah, can not truly support their claim because, among other things, Baha'u'llah was of Iranian descent, where the Messiah was to be Jewish (Matthew 1; Genesis 12:1-3; II Samuel 7:12-13). Also, the New Testament repeatedly cites the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecies in the person of Jesus Christ (Matthew 1:1; 3:14; 8:17; Luke 1:31; Revelation 5:5).
Reverend Miller, among others, did indeed conclude that in 1844 would herald the return of Jesus. When he went up on his rooftop and wasn't raptured, didn't see white Jesus floating down on a cloud like he imagined, he lost faith and assumed he had been wrong.
But halfway across the world in Shiraz, the Bab had just proclaimed His mission. Right after, the first telegraph was sent, bearing the message "What hath God wrought?"
The Jews were allowed to come back into Palestine for the first time in centuries, fulfilling a biblical prophecy.
Also in that year it was determined that the Bible was finally being taught in every nation in the world and was even being taught in the interior of Africa.
You literally expect white Jesus to float down in sandals on a puff of vapor.
He didn't literally rule by the sword or sit on the throne of david, thus the Jews deny Him. Now you deny Him because, though the prophecies of His first coming weren't literal, you for some reason expect the prophecies of His second coming to be.
I'd think you'd have learned from the mistakes of the Pharisees. Are you one of those who thinks wine is literally Christ's blood and bread is literally His flesh too?
'Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: "I am God!" He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world.'
Isaiah 35:2 - It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.
Baha'u'llah lived in and is now enshrined on Carmel.
40:5 - And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
The name which no one knew save He Himself was Baha, or "Glory."
Coincidentally, is not Colossians that human tradition you are relying upon right now? You say rely only on Christ, but you don't seem to feel you need to use His actual words in your arguments.
Jesus was denied by the Jews using the same absolute literalism, dogma, slander, and vilification which you now use. Howso are you any different than they were?
Baha'i will confess Jesus Christ - the NAME above all NAMES!
"Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place and [God - the Father] gave Him the Name that is above every name, that at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow in Heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:9-11).
You are a false teacher and a liar! You are eternally condemned according to Galatians 1:8
"Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place and [God - the Father] gave Him the Name that is above every name, that at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow in Heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:9-11).
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
I do not deny the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit. I deny, however, your conceptions that they are identical and synonymous in every respect, and ascribe instead to unitarian mode of thought whereby there is only One God.
That is the reason He was persecuted, was it not? Those who claimed to be believers called Him a heretic and a blasphemer and said that He failed to fulfill their literal interpretations of prophecy, said that their religion would never be abrogated because it was from God...
Oh is that so? Willing to put your theology where your mouth is?
Find me a single evidence from the teachings of Isaiah advocating Christ that cannot be matched in accuracy and eloquence by the prophecies foretelling the coming of Baha'u'llah.
I didn't realize you considered Paul's words to the galatians to be the Word of God. Do you consider all the words of the apostles such, including the words of the Apostle Peter denying Christ, or the lies of Judas?
And behold, you now, when faced with the gospel of Christ reborn, deny it in favor of your own interpretation of the scriptures of the past, just as the Pharisees did.
Indeed, it would seem to me you have fallen under the shadow of that very verse you quoted.
It also says "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth..." (Rev. 16:5, also Thessalonians 5:2, 2 Peter 3:10)
And does it not explicitly say that those who shall appear as Christ shall not be Him? Does it not say that He shall come with a new Name, and call His followers by a new name as well?
Or are you expecting a physical white Jesus to physically float down on an actual puff of vapor and be seen by all the world's physical eyes at the same time?
You keep saying Baha'is deny Christ, but I keep telling you we do not. We acknowledge Christ the Messiah as the Son, the Word, the Manifestation of God Almighty and His Word as the Command of God.
Produce evidence for your claim! You say Baha'is deny Christ, prove it! I say we do not, produce anything from the writings of Baha'u'llah denying Christ.
If you are going to accuse you better back it up with evidence.
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
If I were to take a cup of water from the ocean and say "This is the ocean" it would be true, but also not true. If I were to point to a reflection of the Sun in a mirror and say "That is the Sun" it would be both true and not true.
But the cup cannot contain the ocean, not because of the limitations of the ocean but that of the cup. And the mirror cannot contain the Sun. It would be the same water, the same light, but the light comes not from the mirror, and the water comes not from the cup.
I am quite familiar with what incarnation means. But are you familiar with what "infinite" "unlimited" and "eternal" mean?
Christ had no power save by God. Christ's actions were God's will, His Word was God's Word. But to be of the illusion that the infinite was entirely contained and expressed within the finite? No more can this be than a cup can contain the ocean, or a looking glass the Sun, even if it be the same water or the same light contained therein.
Yes and you conveniently omit 24:15-22, stating quite clearly that this is before certain things have come to pass.
Certainly, your words are conveniently taken out of context to deny the second coming of Christ whenever He may come. When Christ does come, how shall he be called?
And if not by "Christ," then why not Baha'u'llah? For does it not say in many other places that He shall come with a different name?
Incarnation is the notion that an infinite being can be contained and limited. Manifestation is the notion that God is infinite, and His manifestation is His perfections, attributes, Will and Word in human form, the absolute pinnacle of perfection of all creation, but still that which is created by God.
Complete lack? Now what do you mean "complete lack"? You mean to say there's a complete lack of things in the faiths of other religions espousing a single omnipotent omniscient eternal creator God who is pleased by virtue and serving your fellow man? Or do you mean to say that the Bible doesn't say "He will be named Mirza Husayn-Ali Nuri"? Because I don't recall anything in the Old Testament saying "He will be named Jesus of Nazereth."
Yes Baha'is believe Jesus is the Son, the Messiah, the Word of God, and His Manifestation, the embodiment of His attributes. You continue to assert that we do not, but you have yet to produce so much as a shred of evidence from the Baha'i writings to support your claim.
And you state over and over again the significance of the Message of Christ. I remind you that neither I nor the teachings of Baha'u'llah deny or ever have denied this. And you have yet to answer my challenge to produce so much as a single instance where Baha'u'llah has said anything of that nature!
It is one thing to claim deity and quite another to have the credentials to support that claim. Christ did both. He offered three unique and miraculous facts as evidence of his claim: the fulfillment of prophecy, a uniquely miraculous life, and the resurrection from the dead. All of these are historically provable and unique to Jesus of Nazareth. We argue, therefore, that Jesus alone claims to be and proves to be God.
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
Pter, why do you deny the Christ? 1 John 2:22? Who is the liar?
Colossians 2:8-10
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.
Why do you follow strange doctrines and deny the Holy Gospel? Jesus Christ, crucified and raised from the dead is the Good News, and that all people everywhere can be saved from their sins. Acts 4:12 - there is no other name by which we can be saved.
Pete believes in an Islamic Jesus. The Jesus of the gospels is the base upon which Christianity developed. By Islamicizing him, and making of him a Muslim prophet who preached the Qur'an, Islam destroys Christianity and takes over all its history. It does the same to Judaism.
If one accepts this Muslim 'Jesus', then one also accepts the Qur'an: one accepts Islam. Belief in this 'Isa is won at the cost of the libel that Jews and Christians have corrupted their scriptures, a charge that is without historical support. Belief in this 'Isa implies that much of Christian and Jewish history is in fact Islamic history - which is of couse absurd since Mohammed came 600 years after Jesus!
You assume many things, but if you actually read the Quran and observe the history of the concept of Tahrif it refers to Christians and Jews who, rather than altering the actual scriptures themselves, merely remove them from their contexts or substitute their interpretations for the actual words in their speech.
And when have I denied the Gospel? The Quran itself states that the Gospel was revealed by God. Abdu'l-Baha said that we should read our Bibles and study Christ.
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
I challenge you to produce anything Baha'u'llah has said about Jesus that did not glorify and honor Him. Has He not acknowledged all that which Christ has said about Himself? Has He not often referred to Christ as "the Son" or "the Spirit" and made mention of His trials and His perfections?
Baha'u'llah is the fulfillment of the promises of Christ Himself. Does it honor Him to deny that which He has bestowed upon humanity, and to deny His promise?
And, the Bible teaches that salvation is a free gift to those who acknowledge their sinfulness (Romans 3:23 & Romans 6:23), repent of their sin (Acts 26:20), and receive Jesus Christ, by faith, as their personal Lord and Savior (John 1:12; Romans 10:9-13). Only His death on the cross provides atonement for mankind's sin and His resurrection guarantees eternal life in heaven (Romans 4:23-25; 1 Corinthians 15:1-8; 1 Peter 3:18)
How the hell do Baha'is get around the Islamic claims of being the perfect and final religion, and Mohammad being the last prophet? It's almost impossible if they want to say that Islam was also a religion revealed by God... :S
Muhammad claimed to be synonymous with all the Prophets. Much as Jesus was the Alpha and the Omega, Muhammad occupied the station of being the First and the Last as well.
As for Islam being the final religion, it is undeniable that Muslims believe in the coming of the Mahdi, also known as the Qa'im, and the Masih, or the return of Jesus. The Bab is the fulfillment of the former, Baha'u'llah is the fulfillment of the latter.
MademoiSolei, please read my other comments. E.G. one right above you, which begins "I will try to clear up the confusion over my talk..." and ends "religions have not."
To be more specific, William Sears was researching the return of Christ, and found that the prophecies matched up with 1844. Several other people at that time had reached similar conclusions, but when white Jesus didn't swoop down on a cloud in samite robes rapturing people into the sky they assumed they had interpreted it wrong.
But Sears' book goes in depth into the biblical prophecies and their fulfillments. It's very meticulously done and a very interesting read.
I just read this response and realized I made almost word-for-word the same response on your other video. I dunno if that's overzealousness or just an oft-repeated summarization at work, but sorry for the double dose there.
I will try to clear up the confusion over my talk of the "marketability" of a religion with a quote from Sam Harris (End of Faith, p.31): "Because most religions offer no valid mechanism by which their core beliefs can be tested and revised, each new generation of believers is condemned to inherit the superstitions and tribal hatreds of its predecessors". My contention is Bahaiism may have succeeded to a degree "most" religions have not.
Hullo Peter, I'm genuinely not sure how you've come to misread my words as you have. I think I was pretty clear. My view is that the Bahai religion may have suceeded to a degree other religions haven't insofar as adapting to the times goes, as it has mechanisms by which the core beliefs can be tested and revised, in Harris' words, which other religions do not have. So I'm paying Bahaiism a compliment!
Yo mate, I am a baha'i and I find your videos interesting, you know a fair bit for an athiest, you thought about contacting the local Baha'is in your area? I know you don't see the point in prunouncing words, but I am pretty sure Bahaism is not a word!
LOL! I DO see the point in pronouncing words properly, but define "properly" for me. Ex: People have criticised my pronounciation of "Fahrenheit", even tho the way I say it **IS** the way it is said in English. The only issue of contention is whether "Bahaiism" is a word or not. I have dealt with this elsewhere. However, here is another point: is "Bahaiism" a derogatory term? Answer: No, it is on analogy with Hinduim, Buddhism, Jainism a.s.o.
I personally do not have a problem with you calling it bahaism, but it sounds as funny to us as saying islamism or christianism. If you prefer to call it by that by all means, but as you may have already noticed folks will probably "correct" it a bunch.
Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Taoism, Shintoism, Jainism, Confucianism, Sikhism, Rastafariansm, Zoroastrianism. I guess they all sound "funny" too. :P The reality is, I don't give a damn what you call it: call it "Jerry McGinty's Magic Flying hotdog Hoopla Faith" for all I care. Getting hung up on such issues is the concern of small-minded people.
A quick addition: I cannot help but be intrigued by this "seduction" to the Baha'i Faith that you speak of. It is my belief that it is due to the true message of God through a human...Unlike other religions, for example Christianity, the Bible, is a collection of stories from the 3rd person perspective. In the Baha'i Faith you have Bahaullah, who wrote from God through Him. Which, by the way, is in the Baha'i archives, and you can still see The Writings in person.
My understanding is very few of the Bahai scriptures are even set over into English, presently. That's a bummer, certainly. But, FWIW, I will read the extant oversettings WHEN I am done with the Koran.
That is true and false. The main works of Baha'u'llah (the Kitab-i-Aqdas, the Kitab-i-Iqan, the Four Valleys, the Seven Valleys, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, The Proclaimation of Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, both Hidden Words, and dozens of other tablets) have been translated and can hardly be classified as "few," yes there are many that have not been translated yet.
Yes there's a lot that hasn't been translated. Yes there's so much that has I've barely made a dent in it
Well it's good to know there's a lot to read. As I say I'm currently "studying" the bible. Will start on the Koran 'fore the year's out.Probably wont get onto any Bahai holy scriptures to really get my teeth into them before 2010 if I'm gonna be realistic! This sounds so far away I almost wanna scream! But there's only so much time in the day to read in. And I definitely will read the Koran after the bible. Really trying to take my time on these holy books to mull them over.
My personal beliefs on the matter aside, I'd recommend reading the Quran first, as it will probably be more pertinent in your discussions. In terms of numbers of adherents the Quran would come first with 1.2 billion Muslims, the Mormon texts second with 13 million Mormons, and the Baha'i texts third with about 6 million Baha'is.
@sirach Baha'is are not permitted to engage in sexual relationships outside of the marriage. And within a marriage, it is to be with the marital partner. So everyone has to be celibate until married. But one must remember that all of the judeo-christian religions were written with celibacy until marriage in their laws. This is not unique to the Baha'is. It's simply the newest religion to say it.
girlwhoknitsalot 3 months ago
First it's the Baha'i Faith, not Bahaism. Pronounced "Ba hi" Founded by Baha'u'llah, pronounced "Ba Howl Lah" One God, One relidion, One Mankind. Do a little research.
TheDelmont 10 months ago
@TheDelmont Okay pal, I've specifically, repeated answered those points so many times now it is absurd. Could YOU please do soem research and look at the comments.
BryanAJParry 10 months ago
Get a life Mr. Parry.
Seanwxyz 1 year ago
Guys please like this comment and help spread the word to STOP viewing covenant breaking videos on youtube, the more views it gets the more popular the video will become and thus show up in every bahai-related video we watch. This is comment with opposition to covenant breakers and humbly wishes to peacefully educate the Truth to all.
pinklovepoop 1 year ago
"O believers, verily the light that dawned on Abraham and Moses, that shone as the Sun in Galilee, that glimmered with a few lingering rays in Mecca, has arisen again in its full splendour. Jews, Christians, Muhammadans, Sikhs and those who worship God in the varied splendor of his incarnations, it is truly a light that lightens the world". (XXII, Ch.7, verse 12)
BesACB 1 year ago
If you look at these religions strictly in historical context, it makes perfect sense. Everything is backed up by facts. You cannot simply throw a quote out there and try to assume what the message is referring to. The only thing you accomplished here was making yourself look ignorant and uneducated.
jnduck 2 years ago
There is nothing called "Bahai-ism" It is known as the Baha'i Faith. or simply Baha'i. And you could all really stand to be less judgmental because most of you don't have any clue what you're talking about.
jnduck 2 years ago
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johnwoodallmd 2 years ago
Been a long time since I've been called back to this conversation...
The truth is that Jesus is the Messiah of Judaism.
There are people who follow part of Judaism's teachings but deny that part. Those people generally consider themselves part of the Jewish religion.
Does that answer your question?
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
Scripture also indicated that before the Jewish Messiah (Jesus) appeared, Elijah would appear with highly visible signs (Isa 40:3). Christians believe that this transpired with the appearance of John the Baptist (Mark 1:2-8). When the same Christian apologetic principles are applied here, we also find that Baha'u'llah is the fulfillment of the Second Coming.
"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. " - "1Th 5:2
The thief struck!
combiz9 3 years ago
Again, so many people and their own ways but yet they heard you out. Amazing. Thanks for doing the research sir and at least having people listen. For the one person that said there were billions of Muslims, well, to rationalize that out, there HAS been a population increase within time that has to be accounted for, it isnt black and white math. Number of followers and rapidity of growth is only one factor, besides, what again is it that that person is aguing about? That Muslims populate more?
Keallei 3 years ago
The corpses of the founders of this religion have barely gone cold in their graves and already we have a soap opera tin pot power struggle raging at the top
This is the religion that wants to supersede all religions? Its already dead in the water and proved itself just as silly as all religions that came before it. Religion is over folks crushed by science- face it, forget about it, and join the 21st century.
fctchk 3 years ago
i'm curious, please describe in detail the power struggle at the top that you so knowingly speak of? Since you are fortunate to know about it, please spread the word so we can be as equally informed as you are.
Science and Religion can coexist in the 21st century. Its interesting to see such one track minds.
Keallei 3 years ago
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For the comical sordid details of the Bahai petty power struggles, schisms, infighting, back biting, divine leadership claiming, etc.; look up "covenant breakers™ Pat. Pend."
For a revolving cast of characters, just to name a few, look up Ruhi Afnan, Munib Shahid, Husayn, Riaz, Mehrangiz, Charles Mason Remey, Joel Bray Marangella, Mírzá Muhammad `Alí, Ruth White.
Presently science and religion pretend to coexist by science ignoring religion and religion denying science.
fctchk 3 years ago
Baha'i "sects" membership has historically ranged from about 1-6 members and tend to last just for a couple of years. Would you consider Catholicism as having divided into new sects because every now and then an individual convinces himself (and occasionally some close friends and family) that he has more authority than the Pope?Of course not. Every challenge the Baha'i Faith faces is followed by Victory, and simply provides us with an opportunity to demonstrate anew the integrity of the Faith.
combiz9 3 years ago 3
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Indeed, the impact of Baha'i sectarianism on the "true" Baha'i Faith has so far been similar to the impact of the Baha'i Faith on the religions of the world: inconsequential. But if you study the history of religion you will find that it usually takes a couple of millennia or at least a few centuries for schisms to really get rockin' 'n rollin'.
fctchk 3 years ago
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Baha'i has a much greater obstacle to overcome. Namely that it is a religion -- an amalgam of hokum, nonsense, drivel, pompous sanctimony, myth, and what ever truth it contains could have been come up with by any moderately intelligent sixth-grader.
fctchk 3 years ago
fctchk, check out "The Hidden Words", "Tablet to the World", "The Kitab-i-Iqan", "The Kitab-i-Aqdas" and the "Seven Valleys" by Baha'u'llah. Some of these books were written by Baha'u'llah over a very short time frame (e.g. Kitab-i-Iqan over 2 days and 2 nights). His Writings are incredibly beautiful with unsurpassed eloquence. His teachings on the equality of races, of men and women, of the need for unity between nations etc. all long preceded their implementation in society.
combiz9 3 years ago
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The scientific study of human biological variation has shown that racial categories lack biological validity. There are no races. Did God not know this when he last spoke to Baha'u'llah? Or did he forget to mention it to him?
Moreover, Christ (even if he didn't exist) clearly said: "love everybody". What part of "everybody" did Baha'u'llah not understand?
Mohammed - may he leave us in peace - forbade discrimination. He would now wouldn't he, why limit the amount of his followers.
fctchk 3 years ago
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Baha'u'llah might have preached the equality of men and women but forgot about it when prohibiting women from becoming members of the Universal House of Justice. What part of Universal Justice did he not understand?
Science has also debunked his, for lack of a better word, stupid notions about homosexuality.
The need for unity between nations? Gosh, what? really? Is THAT what we need? You don't say.
fctchk 3 years ago
Pretty accurate so far. I haven't seen Pt 2 yet. The name of the Manifestation of whom you speak is pronounced /ba-ha-u-la/OR/ba-ha-o-la/ and the religion is usually referred to as 'the Baha'i Faith' rather than Bahaism. Now, when you spoke of the 'prophets' or 'Manifestations' of God it is important to make a distinction between the two, especially when referring to Islam. The distinction is made clear in the Quran where Manifestation is Rasul and prophet is Nabi. Muhammad was the last Nabi.
wegugin 3 years ago
Jesus made the blind see.
Muhammad made the seeing blind.
Jesus made the lame walk.
Muhammad made the walking lame.
Jesus made the dead live.
Muhammad made the living dead.
Jesus died and took his body into heaven.
Muhammad died and was buried in sand where the chiggers ate his flesh.
copacetic5 3 years ago
LOLOLOL
You give away your BiBleBelt Location copacetic5!!
No chiggers anywhere else!!
Certainly not in the Medina.
Go eat grits.
btw, I am NOT a Moslem/Muslim
Just someone who can actually think for herself
Instead of listening to pedophile priests or prostitute-sucking pastors.
treseda 2 years ago
When Muhammad said this is the perfect and final religion of God He was talking about "The" religion of God. There's only one religion, and only Manifestations can "update" it.
WhiteElvenDragon 3 years ago
Funny - Muhammad did not interpret it that way, his companions did not interpret it that way, his family did not interpret it that way - yet it took a mullah to come and interpret it in Arabic (not in the language of his people!)
Catz007 3 years ago
What's your proof?
WhiteElvenDragon 3 years ago
My proof is the billions of Muslims since 1400 years ago to date.
But the burden of proof is on you buddy, to prove that Muhammad's interpretation was how you see it:
"When Muhammad said this is the perfect and final religion of God He was talking about "The" religion of God. "
Where's your proof? Other than Bahai sources? From Muslim sources if you please.
Catz007 3 years ago
I have also read a lot of Islamic history - I am acquainted with the Shia sources (since Bahaullah was from a Shia country) and I have also the living proof of over 1 billion muslims now and billions of books written by muslims in the past. Nobody interprets it as you do. In fact, "the seal of prophets" was taken always as "the final one".
Check the hadith that are used to interpret the Quran. This same hadith Bahais use to prove "the Mahdi" as Bab! So, you can't pick and choose people!!
Catz007 3 years ago
Colossians 2:8-10
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.
copacetic5 3 years ago
Funny, the Jews say the same thing about Jesus.
Same reasons, really.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
"And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two Prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
It is no surprise then that Baha'i faith proclaims Baha'u'llah to be the second coming of Christ. Jesus Himself warned us in the gospel of Matthew concerning the end times: "Then if any one says to you, 'Lo, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christ's and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect" (Matthew 24:23-24).
meaculpa9r 3 years ago
Miracles are only a proof to those present. You have never seen Jesus perform a miracle, your only knowledge of it is from the accounts of His disciples.
If miracles were the standard for judgment in that regard, the Bab performed a miracle in front of ten thousand eyewitnesses including western reporters which fulfilled biblical prophecies and mirrored the events described in Christ's crucifixion.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
Why do Baha'is follow dead prophets?
Muhammad - DEAD!
The Bab - DEAD!
Baha'u'llah - DEAD!
Jesus? See Revelation 1:18!
copacetic5 3 years ago
Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah all believed in Christ. See John 3:16.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
Moses spoke of only ONE prophet that was to come.
John 7:40
On hearing his words, some of the people said, "Surely this man is THE Prophet."
(emphasis mine)
John 1:45
"We have found the ONE Moses wrote about in the Law...."
Despite all objective evidence, Baha'is are caught in this contradiction over THE PROPHET!
Baha'u'llaha who?
copacetic5 3 years ago
Christ is a superior prophet to Moses.
In Deuteronomy 18:15--19 , Moses predicted that God would raise up a Jewish Prophet with a special message. Anyone who did not believe this prophet would be judged by God. This passage has been traditionally interpreted as referring to Messiah. Genesis 3:15 is also understood by many to refer to Jesus as the seed of the woman who would crush the head of the serpent.
copacetic5 3 years ago
Thank you for admitting Christ is a Prophet.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
christ is a god=the son of God= teh holy spirit
annakarenina100 3 years ago
You Baha'i prophets are DEAD!
lol
meaculpa9r 3 years ago
"but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no knowledge, but only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him not."
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
Once again, you have stated before that because Jesus was a descendant of Abraham that classified Him as a Jew. According to that same standard, so was Baha'u'llah, for He was also descended from Abraham.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
Christ is absolutely unique among all who ever lived. He is unique in his supernatural nature, in his superlative character, and in his life and teaching. No other world teacher has claimed to be God. Even when the followers of some prophet deified their teacher, there is no proof given for that claim that can be compared to the fulfillment of prophecy, the sinless and miraculous life, and the resurrection.
copacetic5 3 years ago
And your point is what?
Baha'u'llah was a false prophet descended from Abraham???
copacetic5 3 years ago
You were saying that the Messiah would be descended from Abraham, and that because Baha'u'llah was Iranian that He wouldn't count. But Baha'u'llah was descended from Abraham, it's a refutation of your flawed logic.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
Unlike the allah-God of Islam, and Baha'is, the God of the Bible reached out to us by sending his Son to earth to die for our sins. Muhammad offered no sure hope for salvation, only guidelines for working oneself into Allah's favor. Christ provided all that is needed to get us to heaven in his death, 'For Christ also died once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that he might bring us to God' ( 1 Peter 3:18 ).
copacetic5 3 years ago
The Bahá'í's change the meaning as they do with everything else in many of the religions saying, it is with the inward eye of understanding. The biblical meaning is with the natural eye just as it is described in Mt.24:30" At that time the Son of Man will appear in the sky & all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will SEE the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory"
copacetic5 3 years ago
Do not mock God and his Holy Bible.
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
copacetic5 3 years ago
You say that it's "changing the meanings" but your literal interpretation is no different from the Jews'. Jesus did not literally rule by the sword or sit on the throne of david either.
I have a verse for you:
John 10:6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
John 10:5,6 - DO NOT TRUST STRANGERS!
John 10 - Jesus is the GOOD SHEPERD!
You are a liar!
copacetic5 3 years ago
Don't seem to recall denying that Jesus was the good shepherd.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
"Therefore God also has highly exalted Him [Jesus] and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:9-11)
copacetic5 3 years ago 6
I like how once again you are spamming this here, forgetting that in this very verse it basically says that "Christ is The Glory of God"
Baha'u'llah means "The Glory of God"
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
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Mizra Ali stole his name from the Bayan!
LOL
copacetic5 3 years ago
Baha'u'llah recieved that name at the conference of Badasht, where most of the Bab's disciples received their titles, such as Quddus and Tahirih. The Bayan was written while the Bab was in Maku, your accusation that Baha'u'llah stole it is entirely unfounded.
Baseless lies are hardly a Christ-like way to argue.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
Prove it water boy!
copacetic5 3 years ago
"Prove it"? Okay, go and read the Dawnbreakers, the chapter regarding the conference of Badasht. Or if you're lazy, go to the Wikipedia page, it probably has sources there too.
And any source will tell you that the Bayan was revealed while the Bab was in Maku, that you do not know that requires no proof on my part.
You certainly haven't "proven" any of your false accusations or backed them up with so much as a mote of evidence, and yet you ironically demand me prove mine.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Why do you lie about Jesus?
copacetic5 3 years ago
Jesus has four(4) Titles: In Matthew 1:1 he is called the Son of David and the Son of Abraham. In Luke 3:38 he is called the Son of Adam and the Son of God. As the Son of David, it means that Jesus is king. As the Son of Abraham, it means that Jesus is a Jew. As the Son of Adam, it means that Jesus is a man. As the Son of God, it means that Jesus is God. This fourfold portrait of the messianic person as presented by the genealogies is that of the Jewish God-Man King.
copacetic5 3 years ago
Adam is also listed as the Son of God in the Bible. (Luke 3:37) Are you claiming that Adam is also God, by that same logic?
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
Are you so ignorant you fail to see the meaning of ONE and ONLY HOLY MESSIAH?
It helps to know the term: "one and only Son" as in Jn 3:16 Jn 1:18; Heb 11:17). Monogenēs is clearly a relational term when Jesus is called the "only begotten," as in, say, John 1:18. Here He is called "unique God" who explains or reveals God the Father (cf. John 14:6-11 ; also Isaiah 6:1 ff. with John 12:40-41) And by knowing the Jesus of scriptures you can look to the one returning.
copacetic5 3 years ago
Here is a brief lesson in Greek:
Ho monogenēs huios
"The only begotten Son"
The word translated "begotten" (e.g., KJV; NASB) comes from the Greek word ....
monogenēs:
monos, meaning, "alone" or "only" and genos, meaning, "kind" or "type." - "only kind," "unique one," or "one and only." (This verse denies false pretenders like the lying Persian Baha'bu'llah)
copacetic5 3 years ago
So in other words, you deny that there will be a second coming by your claim that there can only be one?
Interesting, I've never seen a Christian who asserted that there would not be a second coming before.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
You have been refuted, repudiated and retorted!
False teachers will be punished!
LOL
copacetic5 3 years ago
Jesus is the GLORY of God the FATHER!
Jesus claimed to be the only access to God, His Father (John 14:6--7). He claimed to be able to forgive sins (Matt. 9:2--7). He claimed to be the judge of all mankind and to dishonor Him was to dishonor God His Father (John 5:22--23). He claimed to have had glory with His Father before the world began (John 17:5).
copacetic5 3 years ago
Does Galatians 1:8 actually condemn Baha'i?
Yes.
Anyone who teaches another gospel message is condemned in the Christian faith and by that I mean the Gospel of Jesus Christ!
Anyone who falsely claims to be the return of Jesus and accordingly teaches another gospel is CONDEMNED!
copacetic5 3 years ago
Copying and pasting the same propaganda speech over and over again is hardly a legitimate argument style.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
Dear Richbee2b:
5:21 - "...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."
So you would go to hell just to insult me? I'm honored, but it's not necessary.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
Bahá'u'lláh - a proven false prophet of Allah claimed that he was the return of Christ. - (The Return of Christ p.2) It is questionable whether Bahá'u'lláh claimed this for himself or his faithful followers - i.e. relatives - bestowed this upon him afterwards, and presented as mystical Sufi poems with circular logic.
Jesus warned us about false prophets like Baha'u'llah and you who claimed private visions and dreams that no one witnessed!?
copacetic5 3 years ago
His first descent from Heaven was culminated in a birth. Why indeed do you say it would be impossible for His second descent from Heaven to be so?
When He ascended into Heaven, He was hated and denied by most of the peoples of the earth, and the false faithful who still awaited their Messiah. Indeed, as He went away, so He came again.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
You are still asleep it seems, for the day of the Lord has come like a theif and left you wondering where it is.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
1 Thessalonians 5:2 doesn't indicate that Jesus will return in the night, anymore than it states in 1 Thessalonians 5:4 referenced above that Jesus will return in the day. There is concurrently daytime and nighttime somewhere on the earth. The Scripture states that Jesus' Second Coming will be an unexpected and sudden "surprise," - "like a thief" is a surprise.
copacetic5 3 years ago
Thessalonians 5:2-4, 2 Peter 3:10, Luke 12:36-40, Revelation 3:3 and 16:15 all indicate that the Second Coming and the Day of the Lord shall come "as a thief" at an hour which "ye shall not know"
You continue to cling to the old heaven of Christ's first coming, when 2 Peter 3:13 tells you that there shall be a new heaven and earth.
And true to the scripture's promsie, you "know not the hour" which it came.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
Non-Christians will be caught as if asleep.
LOL
copacetic5 3 years ago
You have denied Christ's second coming. In what sense do you consider yourself a "christian"?
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
Come now, do you have anything more than propaganda speeches and name calling? I have asked for prophecies foretelling Christ stronger and more unequivocal than those for the Bab and Baha'u'llah and you have not provided thusfar.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
Why does Baha'i try to formulate another Jesus?
Baha'is are refuted and repudiated! The belief in Baha'u'llah largely reduce to a point of faith—is one willing to accept him as the manifestation of God, in the absence of objective evidence. Of course, Christianity also calls for faith, but the Christian has strong and demonstrable evidence along with that faith.
copacetic5 3 years ago
I have a better one from revelation.
11:3 - And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Muhammad and the Imam Ali were the two witnesses. 1260 years later, the exact number mentioned, in 1844, the Bab foretold His mission.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
Why did Moses and Elijah appear in Matthew 17?
Some say the these will be John and Moses representing the Old and New Covenants, but indeed, they will not be from Islam.
copacetic5 3 years ago
Moses and Elijah are indeed two of God's many Prophets, but they are not the ones mentioned in Revelation 11:3, and their ministries do not coincide with the time mentioned. How indeed to you explain how that particular number of years, all coinciding with 1844?
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
The messianic verses from the Bible cited by Baha'is as referring to Baha'u'llah, can not truly support their claim because, among other things, Baha'u'llah was of Iranian descent, where the Messiah was to be Jewish (Matthew 1; Genesis 12:1-3; II Samuel 7:12-13). Also, the New Testament repeatedly cites the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecies in the person of Jesus Christ (Matthew 1:1; 3:14; 8:17; Luke 1:31; Revelation 5:5).
copacetic5 3 years ago
Baha'u'llah was a descendant of Abraham.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
So what? So was Muhammad, and he falsely claimed to be Jesus!
copacetic5 3 years ago
Your point?
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
Nothing happened in 1844, accept that Rev. William Miller had falsely alleged that Jesus would return, but he was wrong.
He repented with tears before his death in 1852.
copacetic5 3 years ago
Reverend Miller, among others, did indeed conclude that in 1844 would herald the return of Jesus. When he went up on his rooftop and wasn't raptured, didn't see white Jesus floating down on a cloud like he imagined, he lost faith and assumed he had been wrong.
But halfway across the world in Shiraz, the Bab had just proclaimed His mission. Right after, the first telegraph was sent, bearing the message "What hath God wrought?"
If you'd look, you'd see plenty happened in 1844.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
In 1844 James Polk was elected President of the United Sates.
(yawn)
Joseph Smith the heretic was killed, so was he a "manifestation" of allah too?
copacetic5 3 years ago
The Jews were allowed to come back into Palestine for the first time in centuries, fulfilling a biblical prophecy.
Also in that year it was determined that the Bible was finally being taught in every nation in the world and was even being taught in the interior of Africa.
Or did you not know about those things?
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
You literally expect white Jesus to float down in sandals on a puff of vapor.
He didn't literally rule by the sword or sit on the throne of david, thus the Jews deny Him. Now you deny Him because, though the prophecies of His first coming weren't literal, you for some reason expect the prophecies of His second coming to be.
I'd think you'd have learned from the mistakes of the Pharisees. Are you one of those who thinks wine is literally Christ's blood and bread is literally His flesh too?
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
'Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: "I am God!" He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world.'
(Baha'u'llah, Kitab-i-Iqan, p.178)
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
Isaiah 35:2 - It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.
Baha'u'llah lived in and is now enshrined on Carmel.
40:5 - And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
The name which no one knew save He Himself was Baha, or "Glory."
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
Coincidentally, is not Colossians that human tradition you are relying upon right now? You say rely only on Christ, but you don't seem to feel you need to use His actual words in your arguments.
Jesus was denied by the Jews using the same absolute literalism, dogma, slander, and vilification which you now use. Howso are you any different than they were?
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
Baha'i will confess Jesus Christ - the NAME above all NAMES!
"Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place and [God - the Father] gave Him the Name that is above every name, that at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow in Heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:9-11).
copacetic5 3 years ago
I like that you post a verse basically stating that every tongue will convess that Jesus is "The Glory of God"
Seems to me like every tongue will confess Baha'u'llah.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
You are a false teacher and a liar! You are eternally condemned according to Galatians 1:8
"Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place and [God - the Father] gave Him the Name that is above every name, that at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow in Heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:9-11).
copacetic5 3 years ago
You deny the Holy Trinity including God the Father!
John 5:22-23 (New International Version)
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
copacetic5 3 years ago
I do not deny the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit. I deny, however, your conceptions that they are identical and synonymous in every respect, and ascribe instead to unitarian mode of thought whereby there is only One God.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
So you lean on heretics to discern the TRUTH?
copacetic5 3 years ago
If you mean Jesus, then yes.
That is the reason He was persecuted, was it not? Those who claimed to be believers called Him a heretic and a blasphemer and said that He failed to fulfill their literal interpretations of prophecy, said that their religion would never be abrogated because it was from God...
Deja vu, no?
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
And you still have not produced your evidence, as you claim, that Baha'is deny Christ.
Do not think that I have forgotten what I asked of you two weeks ago, and that you now still post without having answered.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
Oh is that so? Willing to put your theology where your mouth is?
Find me a single evidence from the teachings of Isaiah advocating Christ that cannot be matched in accuracy and eloquence by the prophecies foretelling the coming of Baha'u'llah.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
I didn't realize you considered Paul's words to the galatians to be the Word of God. Do you consider all the words of the apostles such, including the words of the Apostle Peter denying Christ, or the lies of Judas?
And behold, you now, when faced with the gospel of Christ reborn, deny it in favor of your own interpretation of the scriptures of the past, just as the Pharisees did.
Indeed, it would seem to me you have fallen under the shadow of that very verse you quoted.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
It also says "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth..." (Rev. 16:5, also Thessalonians 5:2, 2 Peter 3:10)
And does it not explicitly say that those who shall appear as Christ shall not be Him? Does it not say that He shall come with a new Name, and call His followers by a new name as well?
Or are you expecting a physical white Jesus to physically float down on an actual puff of vapor and be seen by all the world's physical eyes at the same time?
Really?
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
You keep saying Baha'is deny Christ, but I keep telling you we do not. We acknowledge Christ the Messiah as the Son, the Word, the Manifestation of God Almighty and His Word as the Command of God.
Produce evidence for your claim! You say Baha'is deny Christ, prove it! I say we do not, produce anything from the writings of Baha'u'llah denying Christ.
If you are going to accuse you better back it up with evidence.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
A light of revelation to the Gentiles, And the glory of Thy people Israel" - Luke 2:32 - quoting Isaiah 42:6
Philippians 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Baha'is' deny the Jesus Christ - the Glory of the God the Father found in the Holy Bible - the Holy Word of God.
meaculpa9r 3 years ago
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 8:54
Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.
Jesus is the GLORY of the FATHER God! Very God of God! Colossians 2:7-10
meaculpa9r 3 years ago
If parables were good enough for Christ, they are good enough for us.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
If I were to take a cup of water from the ocean and say "This is the ocean" it would be true, but also not true. If I were to point to a reflection of the Sun in a mirror and say "That is the Sun" it would be both true and not true.
But the cup cannot contain the ocean, not because of the limitations of the ocean but that of the cup. And the mirror cannot contain the Sun. It would be the same water, the same light, but the light comes not from the mirror, and the water comes not from the cup.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
I am quite familiar with what incarnation means. But are you familiar with what "infinite" "unlimited" and "eternal" mean?
Christ had no power save by God. Christ's actions were God's will, His Word was God's Word. But to be of the illusion that the infinite was entirely contained and expressed within the finite? No more can this be than a cup can contain the ocean, or a looking glass the Sun, even if it be the same water or the same light contained therein.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
And where have I denied a single one of these verses?
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
Yes and you conveniently omit 24:15-22, stating quite clearly that this is before certain things have come to pass.
Certainly, your words are conveniently taken out of context to deny the second coming of Christ whenever He may come. When Christ does come, how shall he be called?
And if not by "Christ," then why not Baha'u'llah? For does it not say in many other places that He shall come with a different name?
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
Incarnation is the notion that an infinite being can be contained and limited. Manifestation is the notion that God is infinite, and His manifestation is His perfections, attributes, Will and Word in human form, the absolute pinnacle of perfection of all creation, but still that which is created by God.
Do you deny that God created Jesus?
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
Complete lack? Now what do you mean "complete lack"? You mean to say there's a complete lack of things in the faiths of other religions espousing a single omnipotent omniscient eternal creator God who is pleased by virtue and serving your fellow man? Or do you mean to say that the Bible doesn't say "He will be named Mirza Husayn-Ali Nuri"? Because I don't recall anything in the Old Testament saying "He will be named Jesus of Nazereth."
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
Yes Baha'is believe Jesus is the Son, the Messiah, the Word of God, and His Manifestation, the embodiment of His attributes. You continue to assert that we do not, but you have yet to produce so much as a shred of evidence from the Baha'i writings to support your claim.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
Provide me with your proofs of Christianity, and I shall provide you with equal proofs of the Bab.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
And you state over and over again the significance of the Message of Christ. I remind you that neither I nor the teachings of Baha'u'llah deny or ever have denied this. And you have yet to answer my challenge to produce so much as a single instance where Baha'u'llah has said anything of that nature!
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
As Norman Geisler put it:
It is one thing to claim deity and quite another to have the credentials to support that claim. Christ did both. He offered three unique and miraculous facts as evidence of his claim: the fulfillment of prophecy, a uniquely miraculous life, and the resurrection from the dead. All of these are historically provable and unique to Jesus of Nazareth. We argue, therefore, that Jesus alone claims to be and proves to be God.
meaculpa9r 3 years ago
Matthew 28
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
meaculpa9r 3 years ago
In his sermon on the day of Pentecost, Peter declared: "Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Acts 2:21).
Ahem, the gospel - the good news - is Jesus Christ crucified FOR OUR SINS. The good news is the message of salvation!
1 Corinthians 1:23 "But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;..."
meaculpa9r 3 years ago
Pter, why do you deny the Christ? 1 John 2:22? Who is the liar?
Colossians 2:8-10
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.
meaculpa9r 3 years ago
You ask me why I have denied Christ, but I never have denied Christ.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
Why do you follow strange doctrines and deny the Holy Gospel? Jesus Christ, crucified and raised from the dead is the Good News, and that all people everywhere can be saved from their sins. Acts 4:12 - there is no other name by which we can be saved.
meaculpa9r 3 years ago
Pete believes in an Islamic Jesus. The Jesus of the gospels is the base upon which Christianity developed. By Islamicizing him, and making of him a Muslim prophet who preached the Qur'an, Islam destroys Christianity and takes over all its history. It does the same to Judaism.
meaculpa9r 3 years ago
If one accepts this Muslim 'Jesus', then one also accepts the Qur'an: one accepts Islam. Belief in this 'Isa is won at the cost of the libel that Jews and Christians have corrupted their scriptures, a charge that is without historical support. Belief in this 'Isa implies that much of Christian and Jewish history is in fact Islamic history - which is of couse absurd since Mohammed came 600 years after Jesus!
meaculpa9r 3 years ago
You assume many things, but if you actually read the Quran and observe the history of the concept of Tahrif it refers to Christians and Jews who, rather than altering the actual scriptures themselves, merely remove them from their contexts or substitute their interpretations for the actual words in their speech.
And when have I denied the Gospel? The Quran itself states that the Gospel was revealed by God. Abdu'l-Baha said that we should read our Bibles and study Christ.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
And yet, you have seen the Messiah's return, and denied Him. You call others blind for seeing that which you have not. How strange, how very strange.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
John 5:22-23 (New International Version)
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
meaculpa9r 3 years ago
I challenge you to produce anything Baha'u'llah has said about Jesus that did not glorify and honor Him. Has He not acknowledged all that which Christ has said about Himself? Has He not often referred to Christ as "the Son" or "the Spirit" and made mention of His trials and His perfections?
Baha'u'llah is the fulfillment of the promises of Christ Himself. Does it honor Him to deny that which He has bestowed upon humanity, and to deny His promise?
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
Stop trying to rip off Jesus.
No false prophet can save anyone.
And, the Bible teaches that salvation is a free gift to those who acknowledge their sinfulness (Romans 3:23 & Romans 6:23), repent of their sin (Acts 26:20), and receive Jesus Christ, by faith, as their personal Lord and Savior (John 1:12; Romans 10:9-13). Only His death on the cross provides atonement for mankind's sin and His resurrection guarantees eternal life in heaven (Romans 4:23-25; 1 Corinthians 15:1-8; 1 Peter 3:18)
meaculpa9r 3 years ago
Yes you are certainly posting a lot of things. But you have not posted anything which would indicate that Baha'u'llah is not a Messenger of God.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
You deny Christ in the same breath, friend.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
That's like denying Jesus because John the Baptist was around in His lifetime.
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
How the hell do Baha'is get around the Islamic claims of being the perfect and final religion, and Mohammad being the last prophet? It's almost impossible if they want to say that Islam was also a religion revealed by God... :S
ehsanul 3 years ago
I don't know enuff about it, I have to say. Perhaps PeterJDeer or someone else can chime in.
I agree with you tho: it does seem problematic and somewhat tricky for Bahais to square this circle.
BryanAJParry 3 years ago
I can reply in this regard.
Muhammad claimed to be synonymous with all the Prophets. Much as Jesus was the Alpha and the Omega, Muhammad occupied the station of being the First and the Last as well.
As for Islam being the final religion, it is undeniable that Muslims believe in the coming of the Mahdi, also known as the Qa'im, and the Masih, or the return of Jesus. The Bab is the fulfillment of the former, Baha'u'llah is the fulfillment of the latter.
The Kitab-i-Iqan explains this eloquently
PeterJDeer 3 years ago
dear friend, is not Bahayellah, is Bahaullah , Glory of God
jorj119 4 years ago
already covered this
PeterJDeer 4 years ago
Indeed ;)
BryanAJParry 4 years ago
My apologies for not replying sooner, YouTube didn't show any new comments on this video.
PeterJDeer 4 years ago
Happens to me a fair old amount, too. :)
BryanAJParry 4 years ago
I may have ot have a looksie then. :)
BryanAJParry 4 years ago
"Marketed" ??????? why would you refer to the Bahai'i faith in that way????
MademoiSoleil 4 years ago
MademoiSolei, please read my other comments. E.G. one right above you, which begins "I will try to clear up the confusion over my talk..." and ends "religions have not."
:)
BryanAJParry 4 years ago
To be more specific, William Sears was researching the return of Christ, and found that the prophecies matched up with 1844. Several other people at that time had reached similar conclusions, but when white Jesus didn't swoop down on a cloud in samite robes rapturing people into the sky they assumed they had interpreted it wrong.
But Sears' book goes in depth into the biblical prophecies and their fulfillments. It's very meticulously done and a very interesting read.
PeterJDeer 4 years ago
It's sounds right up my alley, actually! God knows when I'll get round to reading it, tho!
BryanAJParry 4 years ago
I just read this response and realized I made almost word-for-word the same response on your other video. I dunno if that's overzealousness or just an oft-repeated summarization at work, but sorry for the double dose there.
PeterJDeer 4 years ago
Thank you for the compliments. What's the book about?
BryanAJParry 4 years ago
I will try to clear up the confusion over my talk of the "marketability" of a religion with a quote from Sam Harris (End of Faith, p.31): "Because most religions offer no valid mechanism by which their core beliefs can be tested and revised, each new generation of believers is condemned to inherit the superstitions and tribal hatreds of its predecessors". My contention is Bahaiism may have succeeded to a degree "most" religions have not.
BryanAJParry 4 years ago
You believe that the Baha'i faith promotes superstition and tribal hatred?
PeterJDeer 4 years ago
Hullo Peter, I'm genuinely not sure how you've come to misread my words as you have. I think I was pretty clear. My view is that the Bahai religion may have suceeded to a degree other religions haven't insofar as adapting to the times goes, as it has mechanisms by which the core beliefs can be tested and revised, in Harris' words, which other religions do not have. So I'm paying Bahaiism a compliment!
BryanAJParry 4 years ago
my Dear , it is "In the garden of thy heart, plant naught but the Rose of love..." Bahá'u'lláh
the Name is , Bahá'u'lláh
jorj119 4 years ago
Right.... okay...? :S
BryanAJParry 4 years ago
Yo mate, I am a baha'i and I find your videos interesting, you know a fair bit for an athiest, you thought about contacting the local Baha'is in your area? I know you don't see the point in prunouncing words, but I am pretty sure Bahaism is not a word!
Peace
31zmac31 4 years ago
LOL! I DO see the point in pronouncing words properly, but define "properly" for me. Ex: People have criticised my pronounciation of "Fahrenheit", even tho the way I say it **IS** the way it is said in English. The only issue of contention is whether "Bahaiism" is a word or not. I have dealt with this elsewhere. However, here is another point: is "Bahaiism" a derogatory term? Answer: No, it is on analogy with Hinduim, Buddhism, Jainism a.s.o.
BryanAJParry 4 years ago
I personally do not have a problem with you calling it bahaism, but it sounds as funny to us as saying islamism or christianism. If you prefer to call it by that by all means, but as you may have already noticed folks will probably "correct" it a bunch.
PeterJDeer 4 years ago
Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Taoism, Shintoism, Jainism, Confucianism, Sikhism, Rastafariansm, Zoroastrianism. I guess they all sound "funny" too. :P The reality is, I don't give a damn what you call it: call it "Jerry McGinty's Magic Flying hotdog Hoopla Faith" for all I care. Getting hung up on such issues is the concern of small-minded people.
BryanAJParry 4 years ago
A quick addition: I cannot help but be intrigued by this "seduction" to the Baha'i Faith that you speak of. It is my belief that it is due to the true message of God through a human...Unlike other religions, for example Christianity, the Bible, is a collection of stories from the 3rd person perspective. In the Baha'i Faith you have Bahaullah, who wrote from God through Him. Which, by the way, is in the Baha'i archives, and you can still see The Writings in person.
martinemt 4 years ago
My understanding is very few of the Bahai scriptures are even set over into English, presently. That's a bummer, certainly. But, FWIW, I will read the extant oversettings WHEN I am done with the Koran.
BryanAJParry 4 years ago
That is true and false. The main works of Baha'u'llah (the Kitab-i-Aqdas, the Kitab-i-Iqan, the Four Valleys, the Seven Valleys, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, The Proclaimation of Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, both Hidden Words, and dozens of other tablets) have been translated and can hardly be classified as "few," yes there are many that have not been translated yet.
Yes there's a lot that hasn't been translated. Yes there's so much that has I've barely made a dent in it
PeterJDeer 4 years ago
Well it's good to know there's a lot to read. As I say I'm currently "studying" the bible. Will start on the Koran 'fore the year's out.Probably wont get onto any Bahai holy scriptures to really get my teeth into them before 2010 if I'm gonna be realistic! This sounds so far away I almost wanna scream! But there's only so much time in the day to read in. And I definitely will read the Koran after the bible. Really trying to take my time on these holy books to mull them over.
BryanAJParry 4 years ago
In fact, it's highly possible I'll read the Mormon texts before I even do the Koran!
BryanAJParry 4 years ago
My personal beliefs on the matter aside, I'd recommend reading the Quran first, as it will probably be more pertinent in your discussions. In terms of numbers of adherents the Quran would come first with 1.2 billion Muslims, the Mormon texts second with 13 million Mormons, and the Baha'i texts third with about 6 million Baha'is.
PeterJDeer 4 years ago
It's not about numbers of followers tho. The Mormons are a kind of Christian offshoot.
BryanAJParry 4 years ago