John Holloway and Alex Callinicos debate part 1

[TheTokit]

First I was upset that some marxist still do "festivals" about that thing marxism (= like parading a corpse, or a "ghost"). But then I thought that, if the Aristotelian and the Platonian institutions could endure about five centuries after their founders, then surely marxism can endure at least two hundred yrs after Marx. Picasso said that art was a lie that helps us realize truth; maybe Marxism is a filthy, loathing, repulsive bag of hideous lies that helps us realize some truths.

[SaraKoopman]

the bloom pushes back against the doom

[Blyledge]

Why is John Holloway such a weepy little faggot? How can any revolutionary take that quivering little man seriously?

[drummerofwrongway]

@Blyledge

Well read his books, his talking about character-masks, which you just reproduce, while saying "faggot".

The mask of "the strong, powerful man" is completely in your mind, and Holloway just doesn't fit in that picture, (which I think is great) and so you denounce him now.

think about this.

[athosbattaglia]

è finalmente la proposizione di un concetto di rivoluzione pragmatica, ripartire dal concreto dell'alternativa dai significati pratici della rivoluzione.senza volersi impossessare dello stato ma svuotandolo dall'interno delle sue strutture repressive. ci vedo un collegamento con la corrente dell'anarchismo pragmatico contemporaneo.

[mormor39]

you planned economy guys. the one thing about you is that as scientists you never accept scientific evidence. the planned economy is by definition and by historical evidence a dictatorship. wake up to exchange value. use value is an oppressive myth.

[Schniddo]

@mormor39 Why should a planned economy be by definition a dictatorship? Just because it is planned doesn't mean it can't be decentralised.

[ssmusic214]

@Schniddo And how do you "PLAN" without dictating? Can any business ignore all your plans?

[Schniddo]

@ssmusic214 Planning, democracy and accountability are not mutually exclusive. It is not the role of individuals but of collectives to decide what to do with resources - that you defend a system where oligarchs hold excessive amounts of power / capital; well that's your problem.

[ssmusic214]

@Schniddo That's all is nothing but empty phraseology. Whatever you want to "plan", you (government) have to have the means of of forcing me (business) to follow your "plans". Otherwise any businessman can say "get lost", and there goes all your "planning".

[soyradical9]

alguien lo puede traducir?

[arguingplentifully]

"Read some real intellectual material, Mises, Rothbard, Hayek, Bastiat... " - roflmao. What's the matter: can't reach the grown-up shelves in the library?

"Common sense NOT ideology" Well, that makes a lot of sense. As long as you call your own ideology 'common sense' and dismiss everybody else's as naughty 'ideology'.

[bossendenwoodconvict]

My brain is wired in such a way that I don't understand what they are talking about either.

Vote U.K.I.P. That makes sense to me.

[jodaplaya]

that shows what kind of moron you really are

[bossendenwoodconvict]

Hitler was against U.K. independence too. These guys in the video are just peddling some other European creed that ends in death camps and people hating each other.

[jodaplaya]

so championing bourgeois xenophobic UK nationalism wont lead to death camps and people hating each other? one name: Robert Kilroy Silk!

WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE....LONG LIVE SOCIALISM

[bossendenwoodconvict]

"Nationalism" sounds like the sort of term people would use in a European context, or the context of a civil war eg: "nationalists versus communists." Remember this is The U.K. You may like to fantasize we are in some revolutionary war zone, but you are ignoring the moderate nature of British people. Common sense NOT ideology, reform NOT revolution.

[jodaplaya]

Nationalism dosnt sound like anything, its a clearly defined term in political science, one the UKIP knows well. You also claim you can speak for an entire country of people, who elected you? or are you just claiming to speak of the cap doffing white middle classes? and what exactly is common sense, is it not an ideology?

[bossendenwoodconvict]

No it isn't. It's the knowledge a person would come to in the face of the evidence and which they would use to modify their behaviour/ beliefs. So, for example as revolutions cause violence and blood shed and lead to dictatorhsip, it goes against common sense to encourage them.

[jvittetoe]

This guy is making zero sense. Sounds like he just smoked a doobie backstage. Sounds to me like this guy is arguing against crony capitalism, not free market capitalism. Knowing the difference is essential, or else you sound like this guy, ignorant. And to his last point, true FMClism wouldn't sustain copyright protection, this is a function of big business and government protecting their stake in whichever industry. It is in an effort to rid competition and maintain their monopolies.

[jvittetoe]

Jesus...3 minutes in and I'm already busting to get a comment in. 100 bucks says that shirt is a product of capitalism, so is the fucking microphone, and that building they're meeting in. What a bunch of garbage. Read some real intellectual material, Mises, Rothbard, Hayek, Bastiat...

[Iowa656]

What kind of ridiculous argument is that? Under communism you would still have shirts / microphones/ buildings. You would also know that the workers who created such goods had not been exploited by the greed obsessed bourgeoisie.

[rahistoryofreligions]

Shameful people. They speak as if 60 million people haven't been killed in the Gulag. It's an absolute disgrace, and a curse for any university to have professors appointed to teach such rubbish...

[palkom13]

i believe thats a perfectly valid point. I was at this talk at marxism 2008 and i was thinking to myself instead of them plotting troskyist revolution- the miltant working classes all joining up and somehow taking everything down- why not simply form a decent left wing party revoted to opposing the right wing currently in power and about to be? it seems rather ridiculous.

[Schniddo]

@rahistoryofreligions So... any socialist society is one in which people must be sent en masse to work camps? Let's ignore the billions who have died unjust deaths in capitalist societies, we wouldn't want your argument to completely fall apart.

[ssmusic214]

@Schniddo Nonsense! "Unjust" death is nothing but your personal opinion unlike the fact of somebody sent into labor camp.

[Hewr3]

First to Comment YEE

Long Live Communism

Long Live Karl Marx

Workers Of The World, Unite !