Secular Islam Summit Panel 1 Pt1

[Amalgam80]

I think a way to spread Muslim Enlightenment is to call it The Second Muslim Enlightenment. The First being the birth and early history of the Muslim world. The closed minded, ignorant Muslims didn't speak for Islam for all of its history. This is relatively new. There once used to be great debate and discussion among scholars. And now it seems it's happening again.

[philsci1]

Anyway if the islamic world were to adopt the model of Turkey that would represent a huge step ahead (even if islam, the ideology, is not reformed in non trivial ways). But I'm afraid the incentives which brought the forced secularization of Turkey have all but disappeared: ht tp : / / sultanknish . blogspot . com / 2010 / 06 / how-european-tolerance-islamiz­ed-turkey . html A muslim Enlightenment is very improbable now, it is the task of non muslims to catalyze the process via criticism of islam

[philsci1]

I'm afraid it is not possible to really secularize the islamic world without changing the tenet that the qur'an is the eternal and literal word of allah (it is needed a shift towards the view that the qur'an is merely inspired by allah). Indeed even there where full secularization took place, namely in Turkey, islamists have always been popular; we should always expect muslims 'remember' that islam is the exact word of allah and that secularism and modern democracies are foreign to islam...

[niazzzz]

secularism means avoidance / exclusion of religion, and even just the phrase secular islam is an oxymoron.

[nasserthepalestinian]

secular islam huh? these ppl show their lack of understanding of islam

[ghanimalnajrani]

there is no such a thing called " secular Islam"

Its either islam or secularism

I see seculars where are thu Muslims

[freebee007]

very right every religion or social setup could be appreantly secular with a hidden fundamental agenda other wise there will be no system,

freemasons are also secular in there capitalistic societies but they have a agenda of hedgemonising the world.

wow

[DodgeVip3r]

Retards.

[serbianshelley]

. I have a suggestion - as some who lives in the middle east I know that most Arabs that could have been influenced by such claims cn not understand them due to lack of knowledge of the English language. If anyone of you know people that can translate books of Irshad, Rushdie, Ibn Warraq and other material to Arabic and spread it in the middle east - It will make a huge change. currently - Arabs and mulslims here don't hear those important voices of people like Manji, think about that!!!

[iouakick]

i think that is the best idea i have heard spoken by anyone on the subject of combating terrorism on youtube, but i dont think you will find too many english to arab translators on here..education, critical thinking and understanding is the way forward

[adwaye]

mashallah against islamic mythology.

[migranedno5]

suplant muhamedism with sun god worshiping? (christianity and jesus) all religions are stupid.

[VladimirSkaletsky]

I'm surprised Ibn Warraq agreed to be videotaped--he's been very secretive about his appearance in the past, not permitting photographs and the like.

[acertainamountofevil]

Maybe he was experimenting with his hair-do ;D

[salim1009]

West is superior indeed, for how can peasant uncivlized iraqi with a 19th century weapon defending his house against F-16's dropped cluster bombs be superior??

Is int obvious who is more sophisticated and civilized??

Superior Indeed is West!!!

[riazzahid]

His work is full of contradictions and merely a copy paste effort from other writers. This simply shows the lack of real research. His claim can be considered valid if he can quote Islamic books and Holy Quran as wrong. Even if we assume that Quran is human made then we should accept the level of intelligence and accuracy of Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH)which do not exist in any other human!

[atlasshrugs2000]

Warraq is an original thinker, a scholar's scholar.

You, OTOH, can't spell

[MorgothMothman]

Spell, or think.

[wilie123]

Mr.riazzahid hallo

that mohammad was an inteligent person even genious is with out doubt

but that koraan is a divine book or the word of god is such a claim that has no facts behind it

1 it is contradictory and with very low morality

2 there is no archialogical facts of this book

3 the oldest book is only 700 years old ,kept in the muesum of damaskus

4 the documents (old koraan pieces)found in sana-yemen- in 1972 have a very big differnce with the koraan of today ect...

[specdec]

The oldest trick in the book...Hitler was a Catholic, Stalin was trained as a priest, to call Iraq a secular country is extremely relative; when it suited Saddam he was a Sunni Jihadist. The repression of Shias and Kurds, hello? Ethnic, cultural, RELIGIOUS reasoning. None of those people you listed are 'heroes' of secularism, the heroes of secularism (a few of them at least) are: Thomas Paine, Spinoza, Albert Einstein, Richard Dawkins, Carl Sagan...

[therecordkeeper]

I'm personnally an atheist, but it seems Ibn Warraq has the academic integrity of Fox News. In his opinion, the Age of Enlightenment was merely the "final push" of "the West" attaining its pre-ordained destiny started in... Ancient Greece? Has he somehow forgotten the Dark Ages, the Crusades, the Inquisition(s), the Saint Bartholomew's Day Massacre(s)?...

[therecordkeeper]

Indeed, in stating the reasons for secularism, he conveniently forgets the Peace of Westphalia, which is considered by any serious historian as a pillar for the evolution towards secularism in Europe... And the fact that it only came about after decades of horrendous religious war. Not only have all religions been through times of great enlightenment and repression (arguably, christianity more than most), and the complex and painful process they have to go through to achieve secularism.

[lettherebevideos]

Ibn Warraq looks so unkempt and dirty. And Wafa Sultan with that butch lesbian haircut looks like a bigger dyke than irshad manji. I must say that sadly, this 'panel' does not consist of individuals who look like they have good hygiene habits...

[xtacybaby]

Ibn Warraq? LOL He looks and acts like he's so miserable. Besides I thought this was a secular Islam summit? How can you invite as a speaker to an Islam summit, someone who does not believe in Islam? LOL That in itself obliterates this summits 'credibility'. :p

[theforeigner85]

'When you look at the real world, those nice mantras you listed do not necessarily apply.' You're living as a Muslim in the U.S., if you're a citizen, you can vote. Citizen or not, you can go and worship at the mosque or worship anywhere, you don't have to pay a special tax for being Muslim, you are EQUAL. Clearly, it does apply to the real world, if you had any integrity you'd be thankful, instead of being an ungrateful brat.

[theforeigner85]

I think your comments ISI4 show the widespread misunderstanding of what secularism is and why it's used. Ask Christians or Bahai's living in Muslim countries if they'd rather live in a secular country than under ISlamic laws, they'll say yes, because one of the main goals of secularism is to end religious discrimination, and it has worked successfully in Western society, as you can testify since you live and worship freely in the US.

[theforeigner85]

Actual, you're wrong, atheist regimes are not secular, there's a difference between saying "freedom of religion" and saying "no religion." What Islamists propose is "only our religion" which is fascist and supremacist. Secularism means the seperation of religion from state, not from the people, as opposed to the communist regimes you mentioned who wanted to remove religion completely. Nazi Germany is a poor example, the government was occultist, not secular.

[theforeigner85]

You mentioned mostly official atheist regimes not secular ones (with the exception of Iraq and Germany.) Either you're ignorant or lying, but i'm willing to assume you're ignorant and so I won't call you a liar. The spirit of secularism is equality, freedom of choice and practice, unoppression and the seperation of religion from government in the hopes of not imposing a certain religion on minority groups.

[Crunchybear1]

Fismail, try doing some actual research.

1) Many are trying to bridge the cap between Sunni and Shia, When Imam Khomeini came to power he outlawed the criticism of the First 3 Caliphs(RA)

2) your attempt to cause Fitna wont work

[fismail07]

This is about seeing things for what they really are, and dealing with them realistically instead of wishing for something that does not exist. This way at least you have a chance of finding some workable compromise for sorting out differences. Do you call that Fitna?

[fismail07]

All this talk about a unified Muslim state and one Khalifa is a pipe dream. It never even existed throughout history when super empires were dominant in the world, and Islam was in what is called its "heyday", there where 3 Khalif's at a time. This all just irresponsible talk by those who instead of telling Muslims to work on reforming thier primitive, dysfunctional, and backward societies divert them with idiotic schemes!

[Hillsillverr]

@fismail07 Having a khalifa is democracy, right?

[fismail07]

@Hillsillverr not sure what you meant. but religion -especially as defined by islimists-and democracy can not co-exist.

[fismail07]

And do you think that the Shia and Sunna can ever reconcile, with 1400 years of intense hatred and fighting between them? Are you aware that hate of Sunna is part of Shia Muslims beliefs? Are you aware that most Sunna ulama consider the majority of Shia sects -if not all- heretics? have you read anything about the continuous and destructive wars between the Safawi and Ottoman Empires throughout thier history?

[fismail07]

I ask a simple question of why should someone who is secure in his belief, and sure of the truthfulness of his ideology feel the need to reply by violence to an intellectual questioning of these beliefs?

[Crunchybear1]

"Blessed is he who sent down the message to outmatch all other walks of life, even though the unbelievers may dislike it" (9:33) neather the protestant reformation nor the enlightenment are the right models. the only correct model is prophet Muhammad(saws). we must untie the Ummah into one Khalifa.

[fismail07]

So what do you think this Khalifa should be an Arab?, a Persian?, a Turk? or what about an Indonesian?

[Crunchybear1]

The leader of the Khalifa would be the most qualified person no matter what ethnicity

[fismail07]

Do you believe that all muslims would agree on this principle? How would the most qualified Muslim be selected? and by who?

[Crunchybear1]

He would be democratically elected by Popular vote after being approved worthy for the position

[fismail07]

You still did not answer the first question; Do you believe all Muslims would agree on this? Who will approve whether a person is worthy or not? Do you believe Democracy to be compatible with Islam as practiced today in the Islamic world?

[Crunchybear1]

Of course not all Muslims would agree on who the Caliph should be, but thats why there is also a parliament

[fismail07]

So you think that the Muslim societies who are incapable of getting democracy to work within thier own national borders as separate states, will be able to get a democracy working within a trans-national entity comprising multiple peoples and lands? Does that look possible to you, even assuming such an entity can ever be formed?

[Crunchybear1]

"Oh ye who believe turn not to Jews and Christians for guidence, they guide only themselves. if one of you does this you have become them. (5:51)

[salahuddin786]

Secular Islam?....this is naught put an attck on Islam - but Islam is so strong it cannot and will not be softened by whatever attacks - political/economic/military...­.....these people are not anything but hypocrites and they are worse than the Zionists and the neo Cons......and who the hell is that donkey representing Islam?...I bet he has sold his religion/mother/daughter/neice­s for the US $ or the UK £

[Maxamed101]

look at this hypocracy. Those so called moderate muslims want talk about islam and they didnot invite muslims in that community. All I see is white chiristians. Those aportunists, lairs, haters, bashers claiming they are muslims what a lie!. I used to not believie "money talks", but I do belive now. If I give those losers money and say bash chirisinity, they will do it.

[Tesselator]

If you want to know about the origins of Islam Listen to:

prophetofdoom. net/audio/Prophet_of_Doom_Prol­ogue.mp3

prophetofdoom. net/audio/Prophet_of_Doom_01_W­ould_You_Believe.mp3

prophetofdoom. net/audio/Prophet_of_Doom_02_D­evils_Deceptions_and_Backrubs.­mp3

prophetofdoom. net/audio/Prophet_of_Doom_Appe­ndix_Islams_Dark_Past.mp3

if you have a qur'an follow along.

[saadaya]

REASON is GREAT! Peace and blessings upon prophet Ibn Warraq

[NiCKOLAYNINAMK]

Only problem is bigotry...

[dw2626]

because i accept my fellow citizens who are muslims as equals i accept that their texts and beliefs should be open to the same criticism as those as christian texts and beliefs. there is nothing for anyone to fear from debate

[Minipris]

Secular Muslims?! The Qur'an says: "If any do fail to judge by what Allah has revealed, they are Unbelievers." (5:44) How can all these so-called secular "Muslims" claim to be adherents of Islam after Allah ta'ala has spoken?

[NiCKOLAYNINAMK]

they are not saying to dont belive.. they are saying belive if u want to. Because Allah ta'ala says "Let there be no compulsion in religion " (2:256)

[haroldoftherock2006]

Most of these people, like Ibn Whatever, is not even a Muslim. So, I don't see how they can speak about secular Islam.

[zemogcyborg]

islam is all fucked up

[haroldoftherock2006]

No, my good man, U R fucked up.

[zemogcyborg]

you are saying I am fucked up?you don't know me, yet you say I am fucked up. lets see, Not only do i see and can figure out that islam is all fucked up, but the whole world can also see and figure out that islam is allllla fucked up.

[haroldoftherock2006]

U don't know Islam to say what U said so I don't need to know U to respond. I just need to know what U have said.

I don't tolerate such shit. Even if you said Judaism is ____ up, I would say the same to you. Islam is an identioty for 1.5 billion people.

[murtadmama]

Ibn Warraq stated what he thinks should be done to improve the conditions for all - Muslims and non-Muslims. Some people may not realize that although he is a famous polemic, he shares views with many Muslims such as Tariq Ramadan who wants to have secular and fair societies for all.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

Ibn Warraq is one ugly bastard

[spartanojo]

Nice interesting post! But, have you seen what happens if you put diamonds in a blender? Check it out blend.lostfrog 'dot' com

[xtacy111]

islam is not a religion but an anti-religion.

[tarikur]

Pure propaganda, the speaker lying the whole time. There is Female Genital Mutilation in India among Muslims. FGM is an African tradition. Muslims in West don't practice polygomy, FGM or Honor crime or anything. If there is such a practice, I am 100% for jailing them because I know no Muslims follow them.

If there are such an abuse of girls in Muslims family, why they don't the family when they are 18.

[Ozaire]

preaching to the choir, preaching to the choir, preaching to the choir....get I get an Amen? I guess so...this summit was funded by neoconservatives to support the war on Muslim countries.

[lb10128]

It was sponsored by the Center for Inquiry A secular progressive organization. Its goal is a new Enlightenment, or a secularization and liberalization of Islamic thought and the empowerment of Muslim women. Despite your deeply held cognitive dissidence sectarian violence among Muslims is on the rise. Secularization is the only alternative as single sect theocracy has lead to civil war and genocide.

[haroldoftherock2006]

If you are referring directly to what is ahppening in Iraq, I would have to disagree. The sectarian disagreement always existed in Iraq but was neevr actualized until the US went and up rooted its leader. Although Saddaam was a brute, he kept the violence down. THe US invasion was secular in nature.

[hellowthere2006]

Dear brother, if you are really interested in my true religon, I would suggest you to read the quoran and decide for yourself. I would say, read the bibles for better understanding of what is what.

[arsayed]

What a joke!.. Anti Islamic people and Homosexuals like Irshad Manji talking about Islam..

[psients]

Islam is a joke.

[TAPS711]

Thank you for having this summit...It is all over the internet.

[hellowthere2006]

Nothing will change my faith for I know the true religon. Nothing makes me happier than the fact that I am a muslim. No muslim is disatisfied with any part of Islam. Who & what are these people talking to or about? I think everybody knows the reason.

[mjzeb]

hellowthere you said it right. These guys are a joke.

[psients]

You're a joke.

[psients]

Wasn't YouTube supposed to be banned in your ass-backward countries?

[benjaminXXII]

haaha nicely said

[TommyK1974]

Thank you for posting.