Airspeed has started a precipitous plunge right before impact. The sound of the wind decreases right before impact. You were pulling back and stalled the airplane. Your instructor reaches for the throttle to add power but it's too late. When the plane strikes the ground the second time, you had right rudder applied, so that when the nose wheel struck the ground it was presenting its left side to the pavement. It came down hard and turned. Nothing unexplained here. I agree it was your fault. :-)
by the way, there are an enormous amount of assholes commenting here...half of whom I'm sure have no idea what they're talking about
does yelling at a student pilot make you feel better about yourself? this type of thing happens ALL THE TIME and it's a learning experience for all involved, albeit an expensive one...at any rate, this guy is amazingly brave for posting this and you should fucking be ashamed of yourself for putting him down in any way
@manifestgtr Nobody is putting him down, but a respectable pilot, student or ATP, should accept the mistake as it was and not try to argue that it was a stall. Yeah he genuinely messed up. Now he needs to confess. No good pilots are hard-headed about their mistakes.
it seems to me there are 3 possible explanations here
1.)...and least likely, the aircraft was flown into the ground, porpoised and crashed
2.) there was an unexpected (brief?) tailwind
3.) the flaps weren't fully extended...which is also difficult to believe because the way I was taught was first notch at 45 deg from threshold on downwind, second notch on base, third notch on final...second nature
It does look like it stalled at the last second, or you jammed the stick forward. Stall speed with no flaps is 51 not 48, you don't mention this, leading me to believe you were not made aware of the impact of flaps on the stall speed. No flaps is appropriate under some conditions, (i.e. high cross winds), but you have to recognise a higher stall speed with no flaps. I will assume goood flare was not seen because of camera angle, but the sudden drop in the nose looks like it could be a stall.
@Gustavomc12 the IAS for stall is same regardless of how much higher from sea level they are. The airspeed seen in the ASI determines the airspeed of the air over the wings, and hence lift (and in proportion, Angle of Attack)
Yep you simply flew it onto the ground. ASI had plenty of speed on it not to mention if you were at stall speed the nose would have been way higher than that. It all started with a horrible approach to begin with. You were high and fast. Should have gone around and brought it back with a good on speed/on glide path approach. Don't know of too many aircraft that can take a nose first hit like that and not break.
It looks like from this video your first bounce was not on the main. It looks like the nose wheel could have been damaged on the first hard bounce. The second bounce was just settling down on the prop and undercarriage. The video was taken at a down angle so it is hard to say for sure but it does look pretty obvious. The instructor was tapping on the panel for what reason? Going around was not an option because the nose wheel was probably damaged already.
dude it didnt stall, you flew it into the ground. and yes your instructor should have caught it, your 1. whatever seconds you speak of is enough time for a instructor to catch that as well as he should have been expecting it due to the angle you were coming in at . once you get your license you will realize that a pilots license is just a license to learn, that's when the real training starts. ask any pilot that. oh and any aircraft can stall at any speed.ignorance and arrogance will kill you.
First things first, any aircraft can stall at any speed, altitude, attitude or configuration. Let's get that cleared first. Second, I have flown in a Remos aircraft before. Because the camera mount is really high up, it is hard to get an accurate view of the sight picture over the nose. But using what was available and the attitude indicator, it was easy to say there was no flair. At all. Like many comments said, you flew this sucker 3 point right into the ground. Glad your alright though.
I too don't see a stall. The airplane was allowed to just fly into the runway without enough flare (the instructor should have intervened here). Set the flare - higher than the horizon - and just hold it while airspeed bleeds off. You had plenty of speed - if the aircraft truly "stalled" it wouldn't have flown into the air again, no matter how hard the bounce. Landing is the hardest part of training for most people, so don't let this deter anyone from learning! Flying is a blast!
Calling people names isn't going to help anything. We need to help out other pilots in the aviation community to reduce the accident rate, not call them bad pilots if they do get into one because everyone makes mistakes. There's always something to be learned in aviation.
I hope you learned a lot from this incident and continued flying.
I feel like its more instructor error than student error depending on how many hours the student had... I know my instructor always had his hands on the controls with me just in case something were to happen all the way up to my checkride
The only problem is that your a sport pilot! the most useless rating which produces the WORST pilots! You have no idea what your doing. if you had a good instructor and if you were properly trained you would have known NOT to continue that landing and just do a go around. but since your not properly trained you don't know what your doing. Thank you though for providing a video I can show to illustrate very bad landings.
I don't see a stall at all. I think you guys where talking about the horizon, got distracted and flew the plane right into the ground with no flair. Bounced and then nosed it right back into the ground.
Stall "speed" is a misnomer. The indicated airspeed at which an airfoil stops flying is dependent on several factors, including load factors, density altitude, and most importantly, angle of attack.
A sudden change in pitch (changed angle of attack), CG, total gross weight, and control inputs all can add up quickly, especially at a critical phase of flight.
I agree with earlier posts - the nose wheel was cocked, likely it quickly created drag, pre-stressed the strut, and the rest did it in.
Its actually quite simple - as a student you have an instructor onboard- Regardless of the cause of the problem, the instructors job is to "save the day" and the aircraft. However its an excellent video that trainers can learn from. Glad its all aircraft damage and not student.
After reading your explanation and some (not all) of the comments it looks to me like a flat landing (little flare) coupled with a cocked nose gear. Looking at your knee position just before impact you appear to have significant right rudder in. The Remos G3 has nose gear steering hard-coupled with a metal link from the rudder pedals to a yoke at the top of the nose gear dip tube. landing with rudder is okay, but the nose wheel must be straight on when it comes down.
REGARDLESS of T&G, full-stop or go-around, DON'T release flair elevator back pressure for any reason. Once the mains are on the ground, hold the nose gear off the runway until it settles on its own. It WILL finally settle. I've had a lot of the same problems as this guy with landing, and I'm still having problems prior to first solo. My CFI thought I was pushing the stick forward, and later discovered that releasing back elevator pressure has the SAME effect as forward stick motion.
i am not even a pilot. but i have been in some hard landings with pilots, a hard landing happens to the best of pilots. i was in a landing like that before if it weren't for the tough planes we might have had something broke to. and the pilots i have flown with i would consider some of the best, i would fly with them any day of the week if i could. don't let it get to you, Shit happens. next time just concentrate on what you need to do and not on what you have or haven't done in the past.
When I was a student they drilled into my head one thing: An aircraft can stall at any airspeed and configuration. Those numbers are guidelines only. A similar thing happened to me in a Piper Cruiser. Dropped it to the runway from 8-10 feet in the air. It took me and my instructor by surprise, I'm just lucky that it was a tough old plane. The first thing my instructor said was brush it off and let's go around and try again. Did you ever get your certificate?
hey man...I'm not going to attempt to throw my "know it all because I've logged 10 hours" 2 cents in like a lot of people would for whatever reason...it's cool that you posted this and im really sorry it happened to you...but I can't help but giggle at the cacophony of grinding metal meets "oomph" that someone uttered as the cowl hit the runway...I shouldnt be finding any humor in this and if it happened to me I KNOW I wouldn't but I can't help it...good luck in the future : )
The aircraft may have stalled if the aircraft has a pitot-static system along with a static system. The static vent in the pitot static system may have blocked, causing the airspeed indicator to overread. However, not my place to assess a situation from the video.
Mike, are you back flying again? I hope you didn't call it quits!
it's too bad the camera didn't catch your stick input.
my non expert opinion is that you got distracted by the finger tapping on the dashboard at the most critical moment, and let the nose pitch down when you were at least 10 feet off the surface, after the bounce,instead of punching the throttle and pulling back, you pushed forward again. the ASI looked plenty fast enough, especially when in ground effect.
first of all congrats that You have the guts to show Your mishap and want to understand why it happened. To me it seems that You NEVER actually stalled, but that You had a TAILPLANE stall of the horizontal stabilizer and elevator during flare. Check Your density altitude, hot day - doors removed disturbed air flow, no chance to avoid the nose come down so quickly. Next time simulate a landing with the same conditions (NO doors, high temp) at safe altitude and see what happens. Markus
next tim when you have a long runway like that try to land at 60 mph because if you have a long runway likke that use it to your advantage and glide over the runway as much as you can
OK, my 2 cents. I would agree with other viewers: No stall; the plane was flown into the ground, at a high speed, hit nose wheel first (a millisecond before the mains), then bounced into the air and came back down on the nose wheel (the second time). At the outset of the video, the plane was WAY too high. There never really was a "round out" and set up for the flare and touch down on the mains. If I was that instructor, I'd been "all over" that landing - bad set up on approach, high etc
It looks like you did not trim the aircraft for landing. The nose-heavy out of trim situation can be seem from the video. The nose weaved up-and-down as you tried to flare the aircraft but you did not hold it. The out-of-trim situation could also caused by your way-high on final. You tried to get it down so you didn't bother to trim it for landing. The plane was hot and fast and nose low.
It does not appeared that you stalled. It looks like you descended into the ground, hit the nose first, porpoised, and forced the nose back down. I did much worse to the C150 I learned to fly in. The 150 is far more robust than that Remos appears to be...
doesn't look like a stall to me, looks like you skipped the flare and nosed into the runway, bounced and forced the plane back down instinctual. Planes get bent up all the time, don't beat yourself up too much. Insurance will cover and they'll have a new plane in no time.
By the way, a good method that maybe can help you is to imagine that you are going to make a very very low pass, watch you speed, get realy close to the runway, keep flying with the remaining speed until Vso, try to use your peripherical vision to see even your shadow, and maintain, remember, when landing POWER = + - ALTITUDE PITCH = +- SPEED Keep flying man, many of us had bad days at the office !!
Any landing you can walk away from its a good landing, in other hand, your instructor is responsable for the right course of action in a situation like this, a GO AROUND could have save the airplane of the impact, and give you another chance, here is a great lesson for all of us pilots, and fellow instructors to always stay alert and calmed
First off, rule #1, loose lips sink ships! Talking about this online let alone showing a video of it is not smart in a field where pilots are being deviated for much less. Second, any good instructor knows that the entire responsibility of every flight and the responsibility of the students actions falls on the instructor. In addition, the Remos has a tendency of having nose gear collapses due to micro fractures in the nose gear. I believe they are even coming out with an AD for it.
As has been said, there's no point trying to work out why the plane stalled... because it didn't. I'll admit to never having flown that aircraft, but the pitch angle before touch down was way too low for a stall... also too low for a landing. You made what looked like a 3 pointer, then pitched forward after the initial bounce, subsequently impacting the nosewheel. But mistakes happen; we are only human and learning from them is the main thing. Could easily happen to me one day!
As a G3 pilot I must tell you that you were too fast on approach. Usually I fly around 60 mph (little yellow triangle) with almost idle thrust for the last 500 feet agl. On flare I go to idle thrust with a little back pressure on the stick.
This usually lets the airplane settle down nicely on the runway. As you are stalling the plane once it settles ion the runway there is no danger in bouncing back off.
All you do while flaring the airplane is adding back pressure on the stick and keep it...
I totally agree with bpjh4535 the student needs to further review aerodynamics with guidance from an experienced instructor. #1 thing to remember an airplane can stall at ANY airspeed, exceed the critical angle of attack and the airfoil will stall! Also review the glide ratio data, most LSA's have like 12:1 glide ratio, they will float forever with just a little excess airspeed. ~@~
A good landing always starts on a good aproach. Your aproach was not good at all, bad flare and you didn´t react at the first impact. The plane didn´t stall, I'm 100% sure about it. The common reference for that kind of planes is to keep the top panel part aligned with the end of the runway and keeping that attitude until the touchdown. Hope it´s useful, go on with your training!! Good luck and safe fly.
Everyone here(especially this student pilot) should go to the AOPA web site and take the free course called essential aerodynamics. They very clearly explain the concept of angle of attack. This crash happened because the pilot stalled the main wing(not 'the plane just stalled') @10 ft or so. This is evinced by the pronounced pitch up just prior to the drop to the runway. Just watch the runway in the windshield and you can see the plane flying level and then pitch up. Happens all the time. It'
My contension is that, the airplane at 50 something (53 kts) is still above stall speed BUT if you keep it at an attitude of only a few deg UP it will result into a high rate of descend. By increasing the attitude (pulling back on the stick) you would have reduced the rate of descend , making the FLARE. Sure that the flare is done near the Stall Speed, that is way you have to do it at close as possible to the ground.AFTER ALL A LANDING IS A STALL NEAR THE GROUND
Can you put more info in the "text" title so clicking the (expand) button (left of the view counter), add more detail; Density altitude, Winds, Flap setting, etc. The Remos has a clean stall speed= 51mph, and the after incident pics appear flaps where up. The instructor didn't agree with the situation at 57mph 3 sec before the stall started, (tapping the panel) !approaching stall! At 53mph he appeared to grab the stick or brace for impact. The instructor didn't fix the problem fast enough.
I don't think you stalled. What were the winds like that day? I've had wind shear do that to me over the runway before. I always have my hand on the throttle ready to push forward if the plane starts to sink unexpectedly.
I don't know why you are really confused about this but you are probably just experienced airspeed indicator error. Many of the LSA aircraft are not accurate when it comes down to slow speeds including my own Savage cub which actually shows zero on the airspeed indicator while I am still flying at about 25 kn hanging on the propeller. Your airspeed indicator could probably be the other way reading a little bit higher. Check the airspeed indicator calibration including the static source
I don't see a stall, I see a lack of flair. It appears you flew right into the runway in almost a 3 point attitude. Once the plane bounced failure to add power and maintain a positive AOA drove the nose back onto the ground. The instructor should have been ready to correct the lack of flair on landing rather than just let you fly it into the ground.
Pretty simple, you are confused about the stall because the stall did not happen. As the plane was slowing, it was losing elevator authority, the nose came down a bit and it drove onto the runway with excess energy and bounced. You then pushed the nose down in the bounce instead of as you correctly surmised holding back and you landed on the nose gear which collapsed. Your instructor is right to blame himself. He should have applied back pressure as soon as he saw the nose settle the first time.
I don't think you stalled at all. It looks like at the 49second mark that you level out a bit, then at 51 seconds you drop the nose. The mains slam into the runway and you bounce up. Then you do the newbie mistake and dive for the runway and, well..... we know the rest. IMHO the CFI should have had you abort that landing far earlier. You were too high and too fast. There is no shame is aborting a bad situation and going around, that is actually a mark of good judgment.
You only finished the nose gear off, the Remos is a bad Lightsport airplane for beginners, if your FBO is blaming you totally for this, take lessons someplace else, but first talk to the A&P who fixed it, all hard landings in the Remos should be sqwauked by the CFI, till inspected, your mains touched first, other students wheelbarreled landing this plane before this happened, strut was already cracking, it's built cheap, I've seen one fall off on a touch and go
Watching the Video again and again seems that the moment your instructor show where the nose must point , you push a litle bit forward the stick... The plane touches the ground with the nose wheel, then bounces a litle bit, but .. still forward presure to the stick. Of course this is not something embarassing for you. Shit Happens. Dont give up keep going and i wish you Nice landings!
After reviewing the video several times, it appears that as your instructor was teaching about using the horizon for landing, you temporarily got distracted. As this happened your eyes may have drifted to the horizon and what he was showing you. This visual distraction may have caused you to become lax on the controls and lose back pressure on the stick.
This is most visible at 50 seconds. Notice it was right after your instructor pointed to help you visualize your nose to the horizon.
After reviewing the video several times, it appears that as your instructor was teaching about using the horizon for landing, you temporarily got distracted. As this happened your eyes may have drifted to the horizon and what he was showing you. This visual distraction may have caused you to become lax on the controls and lose back pressure on the stick.
This is most visible at 50 seconds. Notice it was right after your instructor pointed to help you visualize your nose to the horizon.
After reviewing the video several times, it appears that as your instructor was teaching about using the horizon for landing, you temporarily got distracted. As this happened your eyes may have drifted to the horizon and what he was showing you. This visual distraction may have caused you to become lax on the controls and lose back pressure on the stick.
This is most visible at 50 seconds. Notice it was right after your instructor pointed to help you visualize your nose to the horizon.
After reviewing the video several times, it appears that as your instructor was teaching about using the horizon for landing, you temporarily got distracted. As this happened your eyes may have drifted to the horizon and what he was showing you. This visual distraction may have caused you to become lax on the controls and lose back pressure on the stick.
This is most visible at 50 seconds. Notice it was right after your instructor pointed to help you visualize your nose to the horizon.
first of all you did not stall! you landed too fast thats why you bounced.. if you stalled, you would've had a hard landing but not enough speed for you to shoot back up! your approach was simply too fast!
you were too high mate, the approach configuration was incorrect (probably your instructor wasn't putting enough emphases on configuration). You should be setup and trimmed before decision height (300+ ft), and be able to just make little corrections with aerierlons and power. At least that is what I have learned in the UK.
imo you were too high over numbers, than bounced, as soon as you bounce once, you have to go around, full power, etc. No recovery possible.. or... well, you know now...
fiy a Cessna...!!!!, its more secure and bullet proof!!!!. Almost pilots that in rare times has been a nose gear landing like me, then go to the air, go around or put some throttle to keep landing and flare. I think that Remos its weak aircraft, no good for students.
70MPH?! When I was a Remos demo pilot, I approached in the G3 no faster than 53 MPH!!!! I'm so glad I'm flying just taildraggers now...and I don't miss changing those Remos fuel tanks or tires...
I didn't see any stall. Looks like you never flaired and flew it into the ground. Your lucky after that hit it, you didn't go around as I'm sure it was damaged at that point and could have just fallen off in flight. The second hit just folded it under. I agree with the general concensus here. Pilot / CFI error by 100%.
that flap motor sound is kinda weird, really bad thing to do just before the flare, I've seen pilots in cessnas and LSA land really scary because of using that technique. That technique will be even worse for student pilots because it just mess their configuration, I think having that change in configuration so late contributed to the accident
One final comment... Not sure how many hours were on the airframe at the time of the accident. One of the downsides of carbon fiber is that damage is typically not visible to the naked eye. Could be your landing was not "that bad" and that you are the victim of the straw that broke a damaged gears back! (damage to composites prior to failure is typically only seen through a microscope). You may have been the last hard landing after cumulative damage in a training aircraft.
... Newton's law about objects in motion might indicate that too much momentum was already in progress and the energy of the first strike got the gear. Light touch on the stick should be used on final flare. I don't think its good technique to attempt to regain a center line that has been missed a few feet off the ground, better to land off center. Since its a steerable nosewheel perhaps the wheel was parially sideways at impact and given a hard impact buckled. Keep the faith....
Thank you for sharing your unfortunate incident. All pilots of all skills can learn by sharing your video experience. As others have commented, the video did not show a stall in my opinion. I do agree with one post that the descent was far too steep and a go around would have been the right choice. Having said that, you did seem to flare long enough before impact that the inertia of the steep descent should have been arrested. I would say perhaps Newton's Law about objects in motion...
I don't think I ever saw a stall. What I did see, however, is you trying to salvage a landing that should have been a go-around from the beginning. In an attempt to force the airplane down, it looks like you just flew it into the dirt.
Hate to tell you this, man, but you did not stall. It was a botched landing after a HORRIBLY steep approach. You leveled off, then allowed a rate of descent to build up. You hit the runway in a 3-point attitude, and the nosegear likely broke on the FIRST impact. Learn to land better next time. Sorry.
I trained on a Remos GX and i currently still fly one.. so you probably know that you can actually move the stick all the way back (with full-flaps) in slow flight and the plane will not stall (it is part of the training for the licence) - of course you can make it stall (you probably practiced power-on/off stalls already).. the point is, the plane is not easy to stall (and unless it was added by your school it does not come with a stall-warning horn). So, looking at this footage i think that
(1) you had a hard landing on the main gear, the plane bounced, gained altitude, you lowered the nose, it touched down hard, it broke
-or-
(2) and this is a bit far-fetched -i know-, but if you are convinced it stalled for some reason, maybe you were at 53 mph (the stall is at 45) there was a gust of 10+mph tailwind, and caused this?!?
POH flight training supplement says approach at 60-70mph. Normal Procedures says apch 60-63 & touchdown @ 40 with flaps down.
The PoH doesn't tell you that the indicated airspeed can be off by as much as 10mph on the lower end of the scale. When it's fixed up and you fly it again, at altitude, compare GPS airspeed with pitot airspeed.
Also, the fiberglass gear doesn't help. Even the mains have a history of cracking.
from watching this video several times you actually didn't stall. You simply nosed the plane straight down into the runway. Not sure why you think it was a stall. There wasn't any stall warning going off either. Not being critical just observant.
I hope this episode will not deter you from continuing your flight instruction! It sucks it happened (seriously) but I have found that I learn more from my mistakes that my success. I bet you will never collapse another nose gear for the rest of your life! One final note, perhaps a Remos is not the best primary FI aircraft that you can learn in. I have had harder landings in a c152 that didnt do any damage at all.
You did NOT stall! Initially you tried to correct towards the centreline, started to flare 0:49 and thereafter you simply relaxed the backpressure on the stick. From this moment the pitch attitude constantly decreased until you impacted the runway. (Looks like the instructor tried to show you to aim at the far end of the runway).... that never works. Your instructor failed to notice the initial nose drop AND to correct after the first bounce It's NOT your fault!
im not famillar with the type of aircraft used but i suppose the plane should have a stall horn warning...i didnt hear it make a sound but maybe its just the vid...did you hear a stall warning mate?...
Dude, you can't figure this out for one simple reason. You didn't stall. You porpoised. You were flying level at 7:41 then your nose dropped you impacted bounced up and went nose down again instead of pulling back and applying power. Simple as that.
Not to be mean but you should remember from your flight training that a stall is disrupted airflow over the wing...and a stall can occur at any speed or flight condition, when you exceed the critical angle of attack...which is the line extend forward from the chord line of the wing, in relation to the relative wind...... :) cats -94%
didnt look like there was any flare at all. you should flare 20 ft before touchdown...when you flare you stall automatically due to high angle of attack, but 20 feet is fine...don't flare before that.
In my opinion it was not a stall at all. It was about incorrect flare, a too big rate of descent and a hard touch down. The plane bounced and then dived in a nose down attitude to the RWY.
A way out of the situation could have been to increase rpm after the bounce to prevent it form falling hard again and then slowly land the plane with proper flare. In case you had not enough RWY, you would had better go around.
SKC (Romanian pilots usually greet each other like this: Have a clear sky!)
I have approx 70 hrs in a Remos. Besides the Remos I flew C172 and Diamond Dimona HK36R. Of these, the Remos is most difficult to land. The Remos loses speed very fast (high drag, low mass); contrary to other a/c it just stops flying and drops. The flare is therefore very important, but also difficult. I always leave some gas (2000 rpm) during flare, until I'm satisfied with height and position.
In your case, you flew it nosedown in the runway, concentrating on the centreline.
Just out of interest was your instructor saying look and fly to the end of the runway and use the top of the panel as a guide. just as the instructor touched the panel i thought the nose should be starting to raise a little. What position was the stick in? I'll go away now : )
..cont the keys (or a little before) the nose drops and speed increases to 80 (is that mph = 70knots) While that's not excessive it does mean you have to shift things along the run way a little. When some of the guys said you flew it into the runway and you thought it stalled, i used to do exactly the same thing and took me a while to learn that elevator authority can decrease rapidly as airspeed decreases which happens as the airfoil section is creating less lift and an increased AOA is needed
Don't you hate it when you stuff up and everyone else gets to comment. Well we all stuff up its just sometimes it hurts more than others. I learn't to fly in a Jabiru 170 very similar AC. On some of my landings I landed heavy on the main gear and bouced hard similar to yours. It took me a while to learn and get the feel for flaring and holding off without ballooning. Approach speed is a big factor therefore the height you turn onto final. To me the approach was a little high and as you crossed
Cont'd: AOPA just took delivery yesterday on a Remos GX for their contest. If you are a member you should make them aware of this video and your experience. If you are not a member you should join. Let them know I sent you,please... i f you join: John B. Caramagna AOPA Member Number: 00968690 22 years! They can help you in unimaginable ways: insurance, training, legal help, etc. Good luck to you in your training... John
Thanks for the information, John. At the moment I am the only AOPA staff checked out, as of Monday night, on our new Remos. Very nice of the pilot to post this in the interest of safety and especially to exonerate his instructor. Also, I wanted to thank you for the nice things you said about AOPA. I should point out that all reading this should mention John as their sponsor should they decide to join us. --Al Marsh
Great video: Too bad you had to experience that first hand; however, bad experience leads to good judgement in the future. It appears you had a level attitude before the stall although from the camera angle that is just a guess. The plane stalled with no apparent gross movement on your part. Plus, I would think you had at least a little groung effect working for you besides coming in a bit hot. Your guess is as good as mine. It will be intesting to see what the invesigation yields. John
Steve, I've got 160 hours in a Flight Design LSA (the CTSW and the CTLS), and I feel that the flying / landing characteristics are unparalleled. The CTLS in particular has composite landing gear (mains) that absorb vertical landing energy & the plane just "sticks." We flew cross country in one from CT to WA, and met a Remos CFI ferry pilot along the way. The Remos pilot got blown off the runway (X/W) & blew a tire, while the CT just stuck. He also had to refuel much more often. Good Luck!
Good luck to YOU on your ppl. As for your flying club and the remos. Buy it. The only downside to it is when it's used as a primary aircraft for students. It doesn't have the wing washout a cessna has and thus when the wing stalls there is NO saving grace. The cessna will keep right on flying with the horn blaring. Thus the Remos is a difficult plane to land and thus my flight school is moving the initial landing training from the remos to a 172 and THEN back to the remos.
Thankyou I actually had a word some of the members at the flying club and they have decided that they're not going to invest in a remos as it can't take a beating like the cessna 152!
Chills down my spine !! I am doing my PPL in the Remos G-3 and at about 9 hours flight time, started my landings last week. With the exception of not crushing the nose gear, our landings look similar, you just had worse luck than me. I've been taught 70mph approach, begin round off about 10 ft, fly even about 1 ft AGL, as plane starts to sink, apply more and more back presure to keep nose up, stall 6-12 in AGL on mains. Theory sounds right, but I'm still screwing up ! Nice video, thanks.
You'll do fine. Try adding just a little power a few feet over the runway to give the controls a little wind for authority. 70 mph approach is just right but make sure you take it right down to that 1ft agl before letting it stall. When the Remos stalls it's all over unlike a Cessna which has wash to the wing so the stall horn is just a suggestion...it'll still fly. The GOOD news here is that the Rotax engine will pull you out of the situation mid-bounce. Plenty of power and you get it NOW
Great training video. I am very interested in the Remos GX, I think its an awesome affordable aircraft. I continually look for what goes wrong rather than what goes right prior to getting in one of them and leaving the relative safety of the ground.
I think the Flight Design SLA has a good landing gear system in the way they can asorb impact. I would be interested to know if anyone thinks the Flight Design SLA could have handle this landing better as I am not an expert on SLA's.
Steve, the hard landing was the fault of the Remos. The nose gear collapse was all ME. The Remos GX has better landing gear than the G-3 I crashed. And, now that I've learned the hard way I don't land that hard anymore. BUT, when the Remos wing stalls it's all over unlike a Cessna which has wash to the wing so the stall horn is just a suggestion...it'll still fly.
@mikehoverstreet How can you possibly say "the hard landing was the fault of the Remos"? There was no stall to begin with, but even had there been, it would not be the fault of the airplane, but rater the fault of the pilot (you). It's quite obvious that you haven't learned anything from your accident. Quit blaming an airplane for your mistakes.
As a 40+ year flight instructor it appears to me that you flew it into the runway. Mike, I would recommend some instruction with the airspeed indicator covered. You need to learn the basic attitudes required to climb, cruise and approach in this aircraft...and WHEN to flare. Good luck.
I have several hundred hours in the remos an i can tell ya the plane didnt stall. you flew it into the ground. My student did the exact same thing a few weeks ago. that plane will touch down at any speed and a carbonfiber nose gear isnt strong enough to take that kind of impact.
Once over the numbers you pull the nose up pretty abruptly, and in fact you can actually hear the wind whistleing over the wings as you rapidly increase the angle of attack. From there a lot of factors play in, including flap settings, density altitude, power setting, etc. My advice would be to look at the whole approach, the proecedures, configuration, comfort level of student as well as instructor, airspeed on final (more so than in the flare), etc. to find out what went wrong.
Part of what you're hearing is me increasing the RPM slightly as it seems to help me have a little better control (normally). THANK YOU for the input.
Airspeed has started a precipitous plunge right before impact. The sound of the wind decreases right before impact. You were pulling back and stalled the airplane. Your instructor reaches for the throttle to add power but it's too late. When the plane strikes the ground the second time, you had right rudder applied, so that when the nose wheel struck the ground it was presenting its left side to the pavement. It came down hard and turned. Nothing unexplained here. I agree it was your fault. :-)
crairdin 3 weeks ago
by the way, there are an enormous amount of assholes commenting here...half of whom I'm sure have no idea what they're talking about
does yelling at a student pilot make you feel better about yourself? this type of thing happens ALL THE TIME and it's a learning experience for all involved, albeit an expensive one...at any rate, this guy is amazingly brave for posting this and you should fucking be ashamed of yourself for putting him down in any way
manifestgtr 2 months ago
@manifestgtr Nobody is putting him down, but a respectable pilot, student or ATP, should accept the mistake as it was and not try to argue that it was a stall. Yeah he genuinely messed up. Now he needs to confess. No good pilots are hard-headed about their mistakes.
colinpayette 1 month ago
it seems to me there are 3 possible explanations here
1.)...and least likely, the aircraft was flown into the ground, porpoised and crashed
2.) there was an unexpected (brief?) tailwind
3.) the flaps weren't fully extended...which is also difficult to believe because the way I was taught was first notch at 45 deg from threshold on downwind, second notch on base, third notch on final...second nature
it HAS to be one of those 3 things
manifestgtr 2 months ago
It does look like it stalled at the last second, or you jammed the stick forward. Stall speed with no flaps is 51 not 48, you don't mention this, leading me to believe you were not made aware of the impact of flaps on the stall speed. No flaps is appropriate under some conditions, (i.e. high cross winds), but you have to recognise a higher stall speed with no flaps. I will assume goood flare was not seen because of camera angle, but the sudden drop in the nose looks like it could be a stall.
gfpilot2002 2 months ago
Wouldn't there have been a stall horn if you lost lift too? Unless the remos is that cheap of an airplane...
N605JB 2 months ago
The stall speed only is correct as the manual, in the sea level at standard atmosphere. The student-pilot doesn't note it.
Gustavomc12 3 months ago
@Gustavomc12 the IAS for stall is same regardless of how much higher from sea level they are. The airspeed seen in the ASI determines the airspeed of the air over the wings, and hence lift (and in proportion, Angle of Attack)
sssoaring2 3 weeks ago
Yep you simply flew it onto the ground. ASI had plenty of speed on it not to mention if you were at stall speed the nose would have been way higher than that. It all started with a horrible approach to begin with. You were high and fast. Should have gone around and brought it back with a good on speed/on glide path approach. Don't know of too many aircraft that can take a nose first hit like that and not break.
Glashawk1 3 months ago
I don't see you flaring.
Aviation2001 3 months ago
It looks like from this video your first bounce was not on the main. It looks like the nose wheel could have been damaged on the first hard bounce. The second bounce was just settling down on the prop and undercarriage. The video was taken at a down angle so it is hard to say for sure but it does look pretty obvious. The instructor was tapping on the panel for what reason? Going around was not an option because the nose wheel was probably damaged already.
calmette53 3 months ago
glad both of you are ok.
HARRYFRIGGINPOTTER1 4 months ago
dude it didnt stall, you flew it into the ground. and yes your instructor should have caught it, your 1. whatever seconds you speak of is enough time for a instructor to catch that as well as he should have been expecting it due to the angle you were coming in at . once you get your license you will realize that a pilots license is just a license to learn, that's when the real training starts. ask any pilot that. oh and any aircraft can stall at any speed.ignorance and arrogance will kill you.
HARRYFRIGGINPOTTER1 4 months ago
First things first, any aircraft can stall at any speed, altitude, attitude or configuration. Let's get that cleared first. Second, I have flown in a Remos aircraft before. Because the camera mount is really high up, it is hard to get an accurate view of the sight picture over the nose. But using what was available and the attitude indicator, it was easy to say there was no flair. At all. Like many comments said, you flew this sucker 3 point right into the ground. Glad your alright though.
NateTheGreatPilot 4 months ago
I too don't see a stall. The airplane was allowed to just fly into the runway without enough flare (the instructor should have intervened here). Set the flare - higher than the horizon - and just hold it while airspeed bleeds off. You had plenty of speed - if the aircraft truly "stalled" it wouldn't have flown into the air again, no matter how hard the bounce. Landing is the hardest part of training for most people, so don't let this deter anyone from learning! Flying is a blast!
mmurphy147 4 months ago
Calling people names isn't going to help anything. We need to help out other pilots in the aviation community to reduce the accident rate, not call them bad pilots if they do get into one because everyone makes mistakes. There's always something to be learned in aviation.
I hope you learned a lot from this incident and continued flying.
unfragger 4 months ago 4
Learn how to fly, dumbass. You flew it into the ground. End of story. Stop trying to blame it on something else.
mattniklas 4 months ago
I feel like its more instructor error than student error depending on how many hours the student had... I know my instructor always had his hands on the controls with me just in case something were to happen all the way up to my checkride
goingtobeapilot 4 months ago
Is it a matter of the ASI or the VSI? I can't see the VSI on the panel its a bit blurry. What did the VSI read?
ElectronAbacus 4 months ago
I get mad if people interrupt my train of thought on base, let alone during the flare. I think his distractions were a large part of this accident.
AustinBrister 4 months ago
The only problem is that your a sport pilot! the most useless rating which produces the WORST pilots! You have no idea what your doing. if you had a good instructor and if you were properly trained you would have known NOT to continue that landing and just do a go around. but since your not properly trained you don't know what your doing. Thank you though for providing a video I can show to illustrate very bad landings.
gamefreakz91 4 months ago
@gamefreakz91 Well you've just proven that you're an ass.
AustinBrister 4 months ago 3
@gamefreakz91 Sport pilot?
Aviation2001 3 months ago
Steep approach.
jmr604 5 months ago 2
I don't see a stall at all. I think you guys where talking about the horizon, got distracted and flew the plane right into the ground with no flair. Bounced and then nosed it right back into the ground.
AJourneyOfYourSoul 5 months ago
I think the nose gear was damaged on the first hit then folded on the second.
shay29772003 7 months ago
Stall "speed" is a misnomer. The indicated airspeed at which an airfoil stops flying is dependent on several factors, including load factors, density altitude, and most importantly, angle of attack.
A sudden change in pitch (changed angle of attack), CG, total gross weight, and control inputs all can add up quickly, especially at a critical phase of flight.
I agree with earlier posts - the nose wheel was cocked, likely it quickly created drag, pre-stressed the strut, and the rest did it in.
kdcollc 7 months ago
Its actually quite simple - as a student you have an instructor onboard- Regardless of the cause of the problem, the instructors job is to "save the day" and the aircraft. However its an excellent video that trainers can learn from. Glad its all aircraft damage and not student.
biggles180946 7 months ago
Comment removed
therabbit0 7 months ago
Remos strengthened the nose gear dip tube subsequent to this incident, so maybe the next you have this happen (never?) the gear won't fold up.
sgtmajorpoole 8 months ago
After reading your explanation and some (not all) of the comments it looks to me like a flat landing (little flare) coupled with a cocked nose gear. Looking at your knee position just before impact you appear to have significant right rudder in. The Remos G3 has nose gear steering hard-coupled with a metal link from the rudder pedals to a yoke at the top of the nose gear dip tube. landing with rudder is okay, but the nose wheel must be straight on when it comes down.
sgtmajorpoole 8 months ago
REGARDLESS of T&G, full-stop or go-around, DON'T release flair elevator back pressure for any reason. Once the mains are on the ground, hold the nose gear off the runway until it settles on its own. It WILL finally settle. I've had a lot of the same problems as this guy with landing, and I'm still having problems prior to first solo. My CFI thought I was pushing the stick forward, and later discovered that releasing back elevator pressure has the SAME effect as forward stick motion.
SeamusOremus 8 months ago
Forced the plane down.
Too fast used up too much runway. I did not see a slow flare
Never push it forward to get it to land. I am a Remos pilot.
JockBarker007 9 months ago
Do you remember what your flap setting was?
bdc1960 1 year ago
i am not even a pilot. but i have been in some hard landings with pilots, a hard landing happens to the best of pilots. i was in a landing like that before if it weren't for the tough planes we might have had something broke to. and the pilots i have flown with i would consider some of the best, i would fly with them any day of the week if i could. don't let it get to you, Shit happens. next time just concentrate on what you need to do and not on what you have or haven't done in the past.
switchgrassfuel 1 year ago
When I was a student they drilled into my head one thing: An aircraft can stall at any airspeed and configuration. Those numbers are guidelines only. A similar thing happened to me in a Piper Cruiser. Dropped it to the runway from 8-10 feet in the air. It took me and my instructor by surprise, I'm just lucky that it was a tough old plane. The first thing my instructor said was brush it off and let's go around and try again. Did you ever get your certificate?
av8er71 1 year ago
hey man...I'm not going to attempt to throw my "know it all because I've logged 10 hours" 2 cents in like a lot of people would for whatever reason...it's cool that you posted this and im really sorry it happened to you...but I can't help but giggle at the cacophony of grinding metal meets "oomph" that someone uttered as the cowl hit the runway...I shouldnt be finding any humor in this and if it happened to me I KNOW I wouldn't but I can't help it...good luck in the future : )
manifestgtr 1 year ago
If I was the PIC there would have been a lot more swearing.
kevie88 1 year ago
The aircraft may have stalled if the aircraft has a pitot-static system along with a static system. The static vent in the pitot static system may have blocked, causing the airspeed indicator to overread. However, not my place to assess a situation from the video.
Mike, are you back flying again? I hope you didn't call it quits!
mono1geek 1 year ago
Good lord that was a high approach...
CincoSnare76 1 year ago
it's too bad the camera didn't catch your stick input.
my non expert opinion is that you got distracted by the finger tapping on the dashboard at the most critical moment, and let the nose pitch down when you were at least 10 feet off the surface, after the bounce,instead of punching the throttle and pulling back, you pushed forward again. the ASI looked plenty fast enough, especially when in ground effect.
I don't think there was a stall involved.
I'd say it's pilot induced oscillation.
jwboll 1 year ago 11
@jwboll i'd agree....
kade6 10 months ago
Mike,
first of all congrats that You have the guts to show Your mishap and want to understand why it happened. To me it seems that You NEVER actually stalled, but that You had a TAILPLANE stall of the horizontal stabilizer and elevator during flare. Check Your density altitude, hot day - doors removed disturbed air flow, no chance to avoid the nose come down so quickly. Next time simulate a landing with the same conditions (NO doors, high temp) at safe altitude and see what happens. Markus
AirplanetvCOM 1 year ago
next tim when you have a long runway like that try to land at 60 mph because if you have a long runway likke that use it to your advantage and glide over the runway as much as you can
MAF152SEB 1 year ago
try to make it fly next time with no throttle
grumpydumper 1 year ago
get a c152 and pound it ????
LAWMANDA1 1 year ago
OK, my 2 cents. I would agree with other viewers: No stall; the plane was flown into the ground, at a high speed, hit nose wheel first (a millisecond before the mains), then bounced into the air and came back down on the nose wheel (the second time). At the outset of the video, the plane was WAY too high. There never really was a "round out" and set up for the flare and touch down on the mains. If I was that instructor, I'd been "all over" that landing - bad set up on approach, high etc
mmichaeldonavon 1 year ago
A stall is totally irrelevant to speed, it is ENTIRELY 100% dependent on angle of attack. And it looks like your aircraft was quite full.
plane63 1 year ago
It looks like you did not trim the aircraft for landing. The nose-heavy out of trim situation can be seem from the video. The nose weaved up-and-down as you tried to flare the aircraft but you did not hold it. The out-of-trim situation could also caused by your way-high on final. You tried to get it down so you didn't bother to trim it for landing. The plane was hot and fast and nose low.
jbskies 1 year ago 2
It does not appeared that you stalled. It looks like you descended into the ground, hit the nose first, porpoised, and forced the nose back down. I did much worse to the C150 I learned to fly in. The 150 is far more robust than that Remos appears to be...
kjackles 1 year ago 2
Comment removed
kjackles 1 year ago
doesn't look like a stall to me, looks like you skipped the flare and nosed into the runway, bounced and forced the plane back down instinctual. Planes get bent up all the time, don't beat yourself up too much. Insurance will cover and they'll have a new plane in no time.
lorinczm 1 year ago 2
By the way, a good method that maybe can help you is to imagine that you are going to make a very very low pass, watch you speed, get realy close to the runway, keep flying with the remaining speed until Vso, try to use your peripherical vision to see even your shadow, and maintain, remember, when landing POWER = + - ALTITUDE PITCH = +- SPEED Keep flying man, many of us had bad days at the office !!
willyholmes 1 year ago
Any landing you can walk away from its a good landing, in other hand, your instructor is responsable for the right course of action in a situation like this, a GO AROUND could have save the airplane of the impact, and give you another chance, here is a great lesson for all of us pilots, and fellow instructors to always stay alert and calmed
willyholmes 1 year ago
yeah...three point landing fail
hundvonkrieg 1 year ago
Stalling is a function of angle of attack. You can stall an aircraft at any airspeed, any attitude, if the critical AOA is exceeded.
da40flyer 1 year ago
an airplane can stall in any airspeed try too fly at 100 mph with the AOA above the recommended limit and check it out
brain208 1 year ago
wind sir wind
brain208 1 year ago
First off, rule #1, loose lips sink ships! Talking about this online let alone showing a video of it is not smart in a field where pilots are being deviated for much less. Second, any good instructor knows that the entire responsibility of every flight and the responsibility of the students actions falls on the instructor. In addition, the Remos has a tendency of having nose gear collapses due to micro fractures in the nose gear. I believe they are even coming out with an AD for it.
diamondstar156 1 year ago
As has been said, there's no point trying to work out why the plane stalled... because it didn't. I'll admit to never having flown that aircraft, but the pitch angle before touch down was way too low for a stall... also too low for a landing. You made what looked like a 3 pointer, then pitched forward after the initial bounce, subsequently impacting the nosewheel. But mistakes happen; we are only human and learning from them is the main thing. Could easily happen to me one day!
mmarkk1990 1 year ago
Not a pilot by no means, but wasn't he a little high in altitude for the approach?
shakenama 1 year ago
Im about to start training in this. Do you think I should train in this, or the classic C172, or the 172 with a G1000?
JetlinerXPilotXFSX 1 year ago
As a G3 pilot I must tell you that you were too fast on approach. Usually I fly around 60 mph (little yellow triangle) with almost idle thrust for the last 500 feet agl. On flare I go to idle thrust with a little back pressure on the stick.
This usually lets the airplane settle down nicely on the runway. As you are stalling the plane once it settles ion the runway there is no danger in bouncing back off.
All you do while flaring the airplane is adding back pressure on the stick and keep it...
snooker771 1 year ago
I totally agree with bpjh4535 the student needs to further review aerodynamics with guidance from an experienced instructor. #1 thing to remember an airplane can stall at ANY airspeed, exceed the critical angle of attack and the airfoil will stall! Also review the glide ratio data, most LSA's have like 12:1 glide ratio, they will float forever with just a little excess airspeed. ~@~
texascfi2010 1 year ago
A good landing always starts on a good aproach. Your aproach was not good at all, bad flare and you didn´t react at the first impact. The plane didn´t stall, I'm 100% sure about it. The common reference for that kind of planes is to keep the top panel part aligned with the end of the runway and keeping that attitude until the touchdown. Hope it´s useful, go on with your training!! Good luck and safe fly.
alonsoab1983 1 year ago
You were far behind the threshold, so maybe you unconsciouslessly felt urged to touch down, thus flew into the ground?
Bigalinjapan 1 year ago
Everyone here(especially this student pilot) should go to the AOPA web site and take the free course called essential aerodynamics. They very clearly explain the concept of angle of attack. This crash happened because the pilot stalled the main wing(not 'the plane just stalled') @10 ft or so. This is evinced by the pronounced pitch up just prior to the drop to the runway. Just watch the runway in the windshield and you can see the plane flying level and then pitch up. Happens all the time. It'
bpjh4535 1 year ago
@bpjh4535
con't....it's called an accelerated stall.
bpjh4535 1 year ago
My opinion:
I think it was a porpoise.
dwangle1 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Hi there,
I am an air traffic controller and a trainee pilot on the Aerostar festival light aircraft. I might have a good ideea why it happened.
First of all it is not a stall. As you said the airspeed was above the stall speed. Now, what was it than.
grmalx 1 year ago
KEEM IN MIND :
1 ) stay above stall spead
2 ) power management to keep the spead and IDLE (or low) over threashold
3 ) start pulling back NOT much at first
4 ) FLARE (pull back more) and do NOT by any means let the stick go forword, pull back and stay back. You better hit hard than to nose gear land.
Hope it never goes like this again... and go on with ur training...
All the best and safe fly.
Alex
grmalx 1 year ago
My contension is that, the airplane at 50 something (53 kts) is still above stall speed BUT if you keep it at an attitude of only a few deg UP it will result into a high rate of descend. By increasing the attitude (pulling back on the stick) you would have reduced the rate of descend , making the FLARE. Sure that the flare is done near the Stall Speed, that is way you have to do it at close as possible to the ground.AFTER ALL A LANDING IS A STALL NEAR THE GROUND
grmalx 1 year ago
Hi there,
I am an air traffic controller and a trainee pilot on the Aerostar festival light aircraft. I might have a good ideea why it happened.
First of all it is not a stall. As you said the airspeed was above the stall speed. Now, what was it than.
grmalx 1 year ago
Late morning at Avra Valley Airport?
kedigitalservices 1 year ago
Can you put more info in the "text" title so clicking the (expand) button (left of the view counter), add more detail; Density altitude, Winds, Flap setting, etc. The Remos has a clean stall speed= 51mph, and the after incident pics appear flaps where up. The instructor didn't agree with the situation at 57mph 3 sec before the stall started, (tapping the panel) !approaching stall! At 53mph he appeared to grab the stick or brace for impact. The instructor didn't fix the problem fast enough.
kedigitalservices 1 year ago
I don't think you stalled. What were the winds like that day? I've had wind shear do that to me over the runway before. I always have my hand on the throttle ready to push forward if the plane starts to sink unexpectedly.
txpilot82 1 year ago
I don't know why you are really confused about this but you are probably just experienced airspeed indicator error. Many of the LSA aircraft are not accurate when it comes down to slow speeds including my own Savage cub which actually shows zero on the airspeed indicator while I am still flying at about 25 kn hanging on the propeller. Your airspeed indicator could probably be the other way reading a little bit higher. Check the airspeed indicator calibration including the static source
TrikeBikeAustralia 1 year ago
I don't see a stall, I see a lack of flair. It appears you flew right into the runway in almost a 3 point attitude. Once the plane bounced failure to add power and maintain a positive AOA drove the nose back onto the ground. The instructor should have been ready to correct the lack of flair on landing rather than just let you fly it into the ground.
babygreatlakes 1 year ago 14
Pretty simple, you are confused about the stall because the stall did not happen. As the plane was slowing, it was losing elevator authority, the nose came down a bit and it drove onto the runway with excess energy and bounced. You then pushed the nose down in the bounce instead of as you correctly surmised holding back and you landed on the nose gear which collapsed. Your instructor is right to blame himself. He should have applied back pressure as soon as he saw the nose settle the first time.
caphenning 1 year ago 2
I don't think you stalled at all. It looks like at the 49second mark that you level out a bit, then at 51 seconds you drop the nose. The mains slam into the runway and you bounce up. Then you do the newbie mistake and dive for the runway and, well..... we know the rest. IMHO the CFI should have had you abort that landing far earlier. You were too high and too fast. There is no shame is aborting a bad situation and going around, that is actually a mark of good judgment.
smigaldi 1 year ago 2
Seems to me you ballooned and corrected with stick inputs instead of power. Something I myself am still learning.
mrdavedog 1 year ago
Looks like you might have lost a few heat shields on re-entry.......that instructor still employed?
FlightLevelHeaded 1 year ago
You only finished the nose gear off, the Remos is a bad Lightsport airplane for beginners, if your FBO is blaming you totally for this, take lessons someplace else, but first talk to the A&P who fixed it, all hard landings in the Remos should be sqwauked by the CFI, till inspected, your mains touched first, other students wheelbarreled landing this plane before this happened, strut was already cracking, it's built cheap, I've seen one fall off on a touch and go
007SPORTSTAR 1 year ago
Man, sorry that happened. Haven't flown a Remos, as I fly the ole' Skyhawk and Skylane. I am glad that you guys were allright.
CBKillas 1 year ago
Wow after looking at your speed you were coming in pretty Hot and high!
derekeves1 1 year ago
Well nice Video. Thank you for posting it here.
Watching the Video again and again seems that the moment your instructor show where the nose must point , you push a litle bit forward the stick... The plane touches the ground with the nose wheel, then bounces a litle bit, but .. still forward presure to the stick. Of course this is not something embarassing for you. Shit Happens. Dont give up keep going and i wish you Nice landings!
antonisvarsamis 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
After reviewing the video several times, it appears that as your instructor was teaching about using the horizon for landing, you temporarily got distracted. As this happened your eyes may have drifted to the horizon and what he was showing you. This visual distraction may have caused you to become lax on the controls and lose back pressure on the stick.
This is most visible at 50 seconds. Notice it was right after your instructor pointed to help you visualize your nose to the horizon.
Crane63091 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
After reviewing the video several times, it appears that as your instructor was teaching about using the horizon for landing, you temporarily got distracted. As this happened your eyes may have drifted to the horizon and what he was showing you. This visual distraction may have caused you to become lax on the controls and lose back pressure on the stick.
This is most visible at 50 seconds. Notice it was right after your instructor pointed to help you visualize your nose to the horizon.
Crane63091 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
After reviewing the video several times, it appears that as your instructor was teaching about using the horizon for landing, you temporarily got distracted. As this happened your eyes may have drifted to the horizon and what he was showing you. This visual distraction may have caused you to become lax on the controls and lose back pressure on the stick.
This is most visible at 50 seconds. Notice it was right after your instructor pointed to help you visualize your nose to the horizon.
Crane63091 1 year ago
After reviewing the video several times, it appears that as your instructor was teaching about using the horizon for landing, you temporarily got distracted. As this happened your eyes may have drifted to the horizon and what he was showing you. This visual distraction may have caused you to become lax on the controls and lose back pressure on the stick.
This is most visible at 50 seconds. Notice it was right after your instructor pointed to help you visualize your nose to the horizon.
Crane63091 1 year ago
Epa les parece este video conocido a los alumnos de AZUL??? cualquier parecido con la realidad del YV149E es pura coincidencia je je je..
piloto1324 1 year ago
first of all you did not stall! you landed too fast thats why you bounced.. if you stalled, you would've had a hard landing but not enough speed for you to shoot back up! your approach was simply too fast!
cbuckhalter 1 year ago
I always comment on this video every time i watch it
You didn't stall you pushed the nose into the ground
its so obvious lol
TheFr3sh1 1 year ago
It's a very common mistake all students make.
The plane never came close to a stall. As a result it landed on the nose wheel.
Look at your ADI...it just confirms it.
Happy landings... : )
dioaka 1 year ago
Comment removed
dioaka 1 year ago
could it be that there was a wind shear, tail wind or high desity altitude ?
bennetto75 1 year ago
i just hope i land ok on my first flight lesson.
TheAppleMan100 1 year ago
You might want to remove this video before the FAA sees it...
TonyAirlines 1 year ago
you were too high mate, the approach configuration was incorrect (probably your instructor wasn't putting enough emphases on configuration). You should be setup and trimmed before decision height (300+ ft), and be able to just make little corrections with aerierlons and power. At least that is what I have learned in the UK.
imo you were too high over numbers, than bounced, as soon as you bounce once, you have to go around, full power, etc. No recovery possible.. or... well, you know now...
gryzman 1 year ago
you tried to flare a little but then you let the nose down. You didn't hold it.
TheFr3sh1 1 year ago
jajajaja
efrainfortiz 1 year ago
jajajaja que porqueria de avion
por eso es que yo tengo un cessna 172!!!!
efrainfortiz 1 year ago
fiy a Cessna...!!!!, its more secure and bullet proof!!!!. Almost pilots that in rare times has been a nose gear landing like me, then go to the air, go around or put some throttle to keep landing and flare. I think that Remos its weak aircraft, no good for students.
efrainfortiz 1 year ago
70MPH?! When I was a Remos demo pilot, I approached in the G3 no faster than 53 MPH!!!! I'm so glad I'm flying just taildraggers now...and I don't miss changing those Remos fuel tanks or tires...
pathyskeeter 1 year ago
I didn't see any stall. Looks like you never flaired and flew it into the ground. Your lucky after that hit it, you didn't go around as I'm sure it was damaged at that point and could have just fallen off in flight. The second hit just folded it under. I agree with the general concensus here. Pilot / CFI error by 100%.
Jamesfromnyc 1 year ago
I don't think the airplane stall either, I think you didn't managed the rate of the descent that well rather than stalling it.
I haven't flown this acft but the airspeed indicator shows a little of extra speed there.
rontolon08 1 year ago
that flap motor sound is kinda weird, really bad thing to do just before the flare, I've seen pilots in cessnas and LSA land really scary because of using that technique. That technique will be even worse for student pilots because it just mess their configuration, I think having that change in configuration so late contributed to the accident
rontolon08 1 year ago
One final comment... Not sure how many hours were on the airframe at the time of the accident. One of the downsides of carbon fiber is that damage is typically not visible to the naked eye. Could be your landing was not "that bad" and that you are the victim of the straw that broke a damaged gears back! (damage to composites prior to failure is typically only seen through a microscope). You may have been the last hard landing after cumulative damage in a training aircraft.
macaviationart 1 year ago
... Newton's law about objects in motion might indicate that too much momentum was already in progress and the energy of the first strike got the gear. Light touch on the stick should be used on final flare. I don't think its good technique to attempt to regain a center line that has been missed a few feet off the ground, better to land off center. Since its a steerable nosewheel perhaps the wheel was parially sideways at impact and given a hard impact buckled. Keep the faith....
macaviationart 1 year ago
Thank you for sharing your unfortunate incident. All pilots of all skills can learn by sharing your video experience. As others have commented, the video did not show a stall in my opinion. I do agree with one post that the descent was far too steep and a go around would have been the right choice. Having said that, you did seem to flare long enough before impact that the inertia of the steep descent should have been arrested. I would say perhaps Newton's Law about objects in motion...
macaviationart 1 year ago
Did I hear the flap motor in cycle just prior to touchdown.. not good landing technique...
shiversphoto 1 year ago
I don't think I ever saw a stall. What I did see, however, is you trying to salvage a landing that should have been a go-around from the beginning. In an attempt to force the airplane down, it looks like you just flew it into the dirt.
Mortivore1 1 year ago
Hate to tell you this, man, but you did not stall. It was a botched landing after a HORRIBLY steep approach. You leveled off, then allowed a rate of descent to build up. You hit the runway in a 3-point attitude, and the nosegear likely broke on the FIRST impact. Learn to land better next time. Sorry.
flyboy1100 1 year ago
I trained on a Remos GX and i currently still fly one.. so you probably know that you can actually move the stick all the way back (with full-flaps) in slow flight and the plane will not stall (it is part of the training for the licence) - of course you can make it stall (you probably practiced power-on/off stalls already).. the point is, the plane is not easy to stall (and unless it was added by your school it does not come with a stall-warning horn). So, looking at this footage i think that
APrintezis 2 years ago
(1) you had a hard landing on the main gear, the plane bounced, gained altitude, you lowered the nose, it touched down hard, it broke
-or-
(2) and this is a bit far-fetched -i know-, but if you are convinced it stalled for some reason, maybe you were at 53 mph (the stall is at 45) there was a gust of 10+mph tailwind, and caused this?!?
APrintezis 2 years ago
POH flight training supplement says approach at 60-70mph. Normal Procedures says apch 60-63 & touchdown @ 40 with flaps down.
The PoH doesn't tell you that the indicated airspeed can be off by as much as 10mph on the lower end of the scale. When it's fixed up and you fly it again, at altitude, compare GPS airspeed with pitot airspeed.
Also, the fiberglass gear doesn't help. Even the mains have a history of cracking.
xaminmo 2 years ago
from watching this video several times you actually didn't stall. You simply nosed the plane straight down into the runway. Not sure why you think it was a stall. There wasn't any stall warning going off either. Not being critical just observant.
DJchuffbucket 2 years ago
I hope this episode will not deter you from continuing your flight instruction! It sucks it happened (seriously) but I have found that I learn more from my mistakes that my success. I bet you will never collapse another nose gear for the rest of your life! One final note, perhaps a Remos is not the best primary FI aircraft that you can learn in. I have had harder landings in a c152 that didnt do any damage at all.
follker 2 years ago
You did NOT stall! Initially you tried to correct towards the centreline, started to flare 0:49 and thereafter you simply relaxed the backpressure on the stick. From this moment the pitch attitude constantly decreased until you impacted the runway. (Looks like the instructor tried to show you to aim at the far end of the runway).... that never works. Your instructor failed to notice the initial nose drop AND to correct after the first bounce It's NOT your fault!
bstolle 2 years ago
SDsdDas
RobertoCamps 2 years ago
I'm not sure what i'm seeing but isn't the carburetor pulled (warm).
I don't know this aircraft, but generally for approach the carburetor heat should be warm because you are gliding or with app thrust.
Before you land the carburetor heat must be cold and in this case I think it isn't
ExpXeNoN 2 years ago
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ExpXeNoN 2 years ago
im not famillar with the type of aircraft used but i suppose the plane should have a stall horn warning...i didnt hear it make a sound but maybe its just the vid...did you hear a stall warning mate?...
82589 2 years ago
Dude, you can't figure this out for one simple reason. You didn't stall. You porpoised. You were flying level at 7:41 then your nose dropped you impacted bounced up and went nose down again instead of pulling back and applying power. Simple as that.
baileych01 2 years ago
aaaaahhgg that sucks! no stall condition from what i see, but a 3 wheel hard touch down and on the bounce coming down it just collapsed!
simfgta 2 years ago
Not to be mean but you should remember from your flight training that a stall is disrupted airflow over the wing...and a stall can occur at any speed or flight condition, when you exceed the critical angle of attack...which is the line extend forward from the chord line of the wing, in relation to the relative wind...... :) cats -94%
cnorman35 2 years ago
didnt look like there was any flare at all. you should flare 20 ft before touchdown...when you flare you stall automatically due to high angle of attack, but 20 feet is fine...don't flare before that.
damn...INSURANCE DEDUCTIBLE!
lavakava 2 years ago
now that's good pilot...admitting his mistake.
lavakava 2 years ago
My take on this one. I don't think you stalled the angle of attack was too low. I think you partially flared flying the plane in to the ground.
ianbastin 2 years ago
That wasn't a stall..... just a bad landing.
jmr604 2 years ago
Your ASI could have been stuck or giving you an erroneous reading... or who knows, you may have hit a downdraft or pocket of air, or windshear?
DJA984 2 years ago
nobody should be looking at AI in the flare.. he just messed up his landing.. hard nose gear contact.
jmr604 2 years ago
I think you just flared the plane a little too late, hit the ground hard, the plane bounced, you eased up on the stick and the nosewheel cracked.
pimpmytafel 2 years ago
In my opinion it was not a stall at all. It was about incorrect flare, a too big rate of descent and a hard touch down. The plane bounced and then dived in a nose down attitude to the RWY.
A way out of the situation could have been to increase rpm after the bounce to prevent it form falling hard again and then slowly land the plane with proper flare. In case you had not enough RWY, you would had better go around.
SKC (Romanian pilots usually greet each other like this: Have a clear sky!)
sklembe 2 years ago 2
I have approx 70 hrs in a Remos. Besides the Remos I flew C172 and Diamond Dimona HK36R. Of these, the Remos is most difficult to land. The Remos loses speed very fast (high drag, low mass); contrary to other a/c it just stops flying and drops. The flare is therefore very important, but also difficult. I always leave some gas (2000 rpm) during flare, until I'm satisfied with height and position.
In your case, you flew it nosedown in the runway, concentrating on the centreline.
AlfaKiloGolf 2 years ago
well my guess is that you may have had a slight tail wind just before touchdown. so your acual flying speed was less the 45 knots.
Raul
raulgvalerio 2 years ago
Please tell me you're not a pilot. While in flight, a steady tailwind (or headwind for that matter) has no effect on airspeed/stall speed whatsoever.
qflyer 2 years ago
It looks like you had a high sink rate, bounced and then you shoved the nose down.
I don't think you stalled.
lucabrasi1337 2 years ago
It is clear an instructor fault...
neocamargo 2 years ago
Eta jumento da porra!
Fica arrumando um monte de desculpas pra explicar o erro, sendo que o erro fatal foi não cabrar o avião na final.
Você caiu de nariz mané!
CJAvideos 2 years ago
Just out of interest was your instructor saying look and fly to the end of the runway and use the top of the panel as a guide. just as the instructor touched the panel i thought the nose should be starting to raise a little. What position was the stick in? I'll go away now : )
ChickertyChina 2 years ago
..cont the keys (or a little before) the nose drops and speed increases to 80 (is that mph = 70knots) While that's not excessive it does mean you have to shift things along the run way a little. When some of the guys said you flew it into the runway and you thought it stalled, i used to do exactly the same thing and took me a while to learn that elevator authority can decrease rapidly as airspeed decreases which happens as the airfoil section is creating less lift and an increased AOA is needed
ChickertyChina 2 years ago
Don't you hate it when you stuff up and everyone else gets to comment. Well we all stuff up its just sometimes it hurts more than others. I learn't to fly in a Jabiru 170 very similar AC. On some of my landings I landed heavy on the main gear and bouced hard similar to yours. It took me a while to learn and get the feel for flaring and holding off without ballooning. Approach speed is a big factor therefore the height you turn onto final. To me the approach was a little high and as you crossed
ChickertyChina 2 years ago
Cont'd: AOPA just took delivery yesterday on a Remos GX for their contest. If you are a member you should make them aware of this video and your experience. If you are not a member you should join. Let them know I sent you,please... i f you join: John B. Caramagna AOPA Member Number: 00968690 22 years! They can help you in unimaginable ways: insurance, training, legal help, etc. Good luck to you in your training... John
jcara17 2 years ago
Thanks for the information, John. At the moment I am the only AOPA staff checked out, as of Monday night, on our new Remos. Very nice of the pilot to post this in the interest of safety and especially to exonerate his instructor. Also, I wanted to thank you for the nice things you said about AOPA. I should point out that all reading this should mention John as their sponsor should they decide to join us. --Al Marsh
altonmarsh 2 years ago
Great video: Too bad you had to experience that first hand; however, bad experience leads to good judgement in the future. It appears you had a level attitude before the stall although from the camera angle that is just a guess. The plane stalled with no apparent gross movement on your part. Plus, I would think you had at least a little groung effect working for you besides coming in a bit hot. Your guess is as good as mine. It will be intesting to see what the invesigation yields. John
jcara17 2 years ago
Steve, I've got 160 hours in a Flight Design LSA (the CTSW and the CTLS), and I feel that the flying / landing characteristics are unparalleled. The CTLS in particular has composite landing gear (mains) that absorb vertical landing energy & the plane just "sticks." We flew cross country in one from CT to WA, and met a Remos CFI ferry pilot along the way. The Remos pilot got blown off the runway (X/W) & blew a tire, while the CT just stuck. He also had to refuel much more often. Good Luck!
PilotComedian 2 years ago
Close to completing my ppl on the C152s and the club I fly at is considering buying a remos, I felt you where very unfortunate, GOOD LUCK :)
joedaviesuk1 2 years ago
Good luck to YOU on your ppl. As for your flying club and the remos. Buy it. The only downside to it is when it's used as a primary aircraft for students. It doesn't have the wing washout a cessna has and thus when the wing stalls there is NO saving grace. The cessna will keep right on flying with the horn blaring. Thus the Remos is a difficult plane to land and thus my flight school is moving the initial landing training from the remos to a 172 and THEN back to the remos.
mikehoverstreet 2 years ago
Thankyou I actually had a word some of the members at the flying club and they have decided that they're not going to invest in a remos as it can't take a beating like the cessna 152!
joedaviesuk1 2 years ago
Chills down my spine !! I am doing my PPL in the Remos G-3 and at about 9 hours flight time, started my landings last week. With the exception of not crushing the nose gear, our landings look similar, you just had worse luck than me. I've been taught 70mph approach, begin round off about 10 ft, fly even about 1 ft AGL, as plane starts to sink, apply more and more back presure to keep nose up, stall 6-12 in AGL on mains. Theory sounds right, but I'm still screwing up ! Nice video, thanks.
DirectTech 2 years ago
You'll do fine. Try adding just a little power a few feet over the runway to give the controls a little wind for authority. 70 mph approach is just right but make sure you take it right down to that 1ft agl before letting it stall. When the Remos stalls it's all over unlike a Cessna which has wash to the wing so the stall horn is just a suggestion...it'll still fly. The GOOD news here is that the Rotax engine will pull you out of the situation mid-bounce. Plenty of power and you get it NOW
mikehoverstreet 2 years ago
Great training video. I am very interested in the Remos GX, I think its an awesome affordable aircraft. I continually look for what goes wrong rather than what goes right prior to getting in one of them and leaving the relative safety of the ground.
I think the Flight Design SLA has a good landing gear system in the way they can asorb impact. I would be interested to know if anyone thinks the Flight Design SLA could have handle this landing better as I am not an expert on SLA's.
SteveStreet2000 2 years ago
Steve, the hard landing was the fault of the Remos. The nose gear collapse was all ME. The Remos GX has better landing gear than the G-3 I crashed. And, now that I've learned the hard way I don't land that hard anymore. BUT, when the Remos wing stalls it's all over unlike a Cessna which has wash to the wing so the stall horn is just a suggestion...it'll still fly.
mikehoverstreet 2 years ago
Yea....that wasn't a stall. Simple pilot error. Not at all the fault of the airplane.
qflyer 2 years ago
@mikehoverstreet How can you possibly say "the hard landing was the fault of the Remos"? There was no stall to begin with, but even had there been, it would not be the fault of the airplane, but rater the fault of the pilot (you). It's quite obvious that you haven't learned anything from your accident. Quit blaming an airplane for your mistakes.
qflyer 1 year ago
As a 40+ year flight instructor it appears to me that you flew it into the runway. Mike, I would recommend some instruction with the airspeed indicator covered. You need to learn the basic attitudes required to climb, cruise and approach in this aircraft...and WHEN to flare. Good luck.
lochadro 2 years ago 8
This has been flagged as spam show
First of all I would thank you for sharing.
As for your question, it looks like you
bounced and then landed nose first. After
bouncing you either let the nose go, or the
airflow over the elevator was not sufficient
to keep the nose up. As a result, nose
touched first, and unable to withstand the
load, it collapsed.
BTW, what did FAA say? Who was given responsibility?
What happened to your flight instructor?
AH84forh 2 years ago 2
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AH84forh 2 years ago
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AH84forh 2 years ago
I have several hundred hours in the remos an i can tell ya the plane didnt stall. you flew it into the ground. My student did the exact same thing a few weeks ago. that plane will touch down at any speed and a carbonfiber nose gear isnt strong enough to take that kind of impact.
xxiflyplanes 2 years ago 3
Don't think I FLEW it into the ground...it DID fall the last couple of feet....but I REALLY do appreciate your input
mikehoverstreet 2 years ago
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qflyer 2 years ago
Once over the numbers you pull the nose up pretty abruptly, and in fact you can actually hear the wind whistleing over the wings as you rapidly increase the angle of attack. From there a lot of factors play in, including flap settings, density altitude, power setting, etc. My advice would be to look at the whole approach, the proecedures, configuration, comfort level of student as well as instructor, airspeed on final (more so than in the flare), etc. to find out what went wrong.
USAviation 2 years ago 4
Part of what you're hearing is me increasing the RPM slightly as it seems to help me have a little better control (normally). THANK YOU for the input.
mikehoverstreet 2 years ago