Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a mirror-image of Radical Islam. Like Radical Islam she bypasses the normative Islamic tradition in terms of interpreting and understanding the Qur'an and Sunnah and goes directly to these two sources herself assuming that she can understand them better than the cumulative wisdom of the great Islamic scholars over centuries. The Radicals likewise make this error. Qur'an and Hadith scholarship has a long and complex history; and to ignore that is dishonest.
She said "the facts that are in the Qur'an and Hadith..." she used the word "facts". By Allah, this slip of the tongue has proven something very interesting. In Islam, the word "kufr" means "to cover", specifically the one who covers up the truth (of Islam). She is a kuffar because she knows the Qur'an is fact and she is attempting to cover it up, even to herself. The worse of humanity.
6:34 - What he says seems true, she is a mirror image of radical islam in that she is radically against islam - and that's exactly what we need! "The position of Prussia in Germany will not be determined by its liberalism but by its power" You can't wipe out such radicalism with a soft tolerant touch. It needs a strong hand to weed it out. And for that reason Ayaan is the perfect spearhead of this movement. She knows what she's fighting - she was brought up in it.
@Tryfing94: And your ignorant nonsensical diatribe hardly has a leg to stand on.. More people convert to Islam every year than to any other religion across the world out of their own free choice.. Perhaps those people know something errant Islamophobes like you have yet to discover.. Nor can you lay claim to any historical process by which Islam posed aggression towards anyone in contrast to European crusades, colonialism & imperialism & the barbaric World Wars.. Get educated kid.
@faris710 The fact that many do that suggests two things - one that radical islamists like two spread propaganda, two, that if it is true, then we have more dipshits around than I thought. Two wrongs don't make a right. I'll simply point to the present, wherein you merely have to open your eyes to see the disgusting shit, honour killings etc etc, and to the past, when your own prophet married a nine year old, and your holy book spread antisemitic ideas. Your very ideology is disgusting mate.
@Tryfing94: More errant nonsense based on ignorance.. Whether the Prophet married a nine year old or not, is still up for debate; there exists no definitive evidence that this was the case.. Even if it was, up until the 20th century, many states in the U.S allowed a marriages of girls between the ages of 10-12yrs old.. Go read some history for Pete's sakes! Who invented the car bombing? An Italian (Christian).. Who invented modern-day suicide bombing? Tamil Tigers (Hindu terror group)
@faris710 hello, child marriage was allowed in US untill 20th century but US dont claim to be the last prophet . At on point you say Muhammad is the greatest man and then compare him to what was happening in US. I say it was wrong what was happening in US during the 20th which logically makes make muhammad a wrongdoer. i accept muslims are so innocent. who invented flying planes into buildings? Buddhist i guess.
@faris710 And no, I don't love the jews, but I sure as hell am disgusted by racism. I never defended the crusades either, if anything I hate Christianity just as much, but you only see stupid televangelists these days. I don't see much honour killing, female mutilation etc etc from the Christian community.
@Tryfing94: Honor killing & female genital mutilation exists & continues to thrive in Christian communities across Africa.. One wonders if you ever do any research on a subject before posting haughty comments
Most Muslims do not interpret the Qu'ran as she does. She insists on a hateful interpretation of the Qu'ran and asserts that peaceful Muslims are interpreting the text wrongly. Rather it seems that she is the hateful one who would not tolerate Muslims who are moderate.
Taoism is sexist, Christianity is cruel, Islam is no different. These debates should be from epistemology or human rights, not from faux liberalism under the guise of hackneyed freedom fighting.
@dubi186: Yeh right! Go to your nearest library & do some research instead of reading misinformation off of Islamophobic websites.. Except for a very few, most Muslim countries have an abundance of Churches, missionary schools & conversion activities going on, have Christians in positions of power in govt institutions, etc.. Your comment goes to show just how much bliss ignorance truly is.
@faris710 Come on! u are not the first one to say i should go and read quran or do research. Why dont you provide some information because I have been living in a muslim country. Which muslim countries allow freedom of religion and preaching? position of power for christian? and conversions? can you name some Islamic countries.? you are a joke.
@faris710 can you quote for me a sentance by Ayaan, from this clip, which is hateful or fascistic (since you claim in description of this clip that she has "hateful & fascist leanings")? The last paragraph of that descriptions seems to imply that Christian-Evangelicals are generally hateful & fascistic. Isn't that the same kind of language that offends muslims, when is used to critisize them?
@PitBoruta: I don't have to be a rocket-scientist to figure out the far-right Evangelical take on Armageddon, which is why idiots constituting the American political leadership - worst of whom is the Tea Party - continue to protect the apartheid state of Israel without exercising their influence & power to bring about a 'just' settlement to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict; the biggest thorn in relations b/w Islam & the West. Ayaan is just a cheap mouthpiece of such interest groups
@faris710 it seems that you can't critisize muslims or islam without them talking about Israel/Palestine conflict. Not everyone who have issue with the way that muslims behave or their holy book have to be pro America/Israel. Is it possible for muslims to divide their religion and their politics? I agree that American evangelican right is delusional group of bigots, but so are muslims who want to implement sharia or motivate thamselves to perform terrorist acts in the name of jihad
@PitBoruta: Please DO tell us how many Muslims want to implement sharia in YOUR country.. or for that fact, in their OWN countries.. The only country in the world where a primitive & literal interpretation of sharia (the type that scares you) is imposed on the citizenry is Saudi Arabia.. the closest ally of the U.S in the Middle East with its totalitarian & corrupt monarchs.. And Israeli-Palestinian conflict 'is' the biggest thorn in Muslim-Western relations whether u like it or not.
@SuperBabyBuddah: I've hardly met any Muslim who wants to 'impose' sharia on non-Islamic countries.. This is just plain Islamophobic rhetoric propagated by the anti-Islam brigade via yellow-journalism.. What the Muslims in 'some' European countries want is, sharia based courts for judging 'family matters' -its nothing that will infringe on any Euro legal system since some EU countries already have 'Jewish' religious courts to deal with Jewish family matters. So why discriminate?
a verry sick women not a muslim would by her crap book 1 we have 4 millions copies of the coran witing bye arabes christians try to change words in the coran the books of the hathites are the same she only want attentoin and money A VERRY SICK WOMEN
@SuperBabyBuddah And the best way to do undermine the wave of reactionary Islam is to submit the Koran and the traditions to the same historical critical method that we used on the Bible and the Torah. The conclusions and the various hypotheses that result from this ongoing investigation are new to most Muslims, yourself included- and will probably never be palatable to you, since dogmatic believers consider it to be sacrilegious to think of these texts as written by fallible men.
@SuperBabyBuddah: I have yet to see u quote or specifically cite any 'conclusions' by historical critical research & other gibberish.. Common sense doesn't seem to be palatable to you since your dogmatic belief that Islam is inherently evil has become something of an issue of cognitive dissonance as anything contrary to your belief regarding Islam that is presented to you is met by sheer disbelief. So you see, you're not much different from the lot you just criticized...
A question to both of you; imagine you started having doubts. Imagine you noticed the scientific absurdities in the Koran, or the grammatical mistakes, the unintelligible paragraphs, Muhammad's highly dubious morality, and you were forced to admit to yourselves that this book was written not by God but by fallible human writers. Could you leave Islam and become an apostate without any problems? Would you be able to be open about it?
@SuperBabyBuddah: I have studied the Bible, Torah, Vedas and the Qur'an.. I am intelligent enough to figure out which one of these is not corrupted by human intervention.. Qur'an is the only one that stands out. U'd have to be devoid of intelligence if u fault Muhammad's character or knit-pick verses out of Qur'an to advocate an agenda of ur own.. Hence, I cannot imagine myself as anything but Muslim.
@SuperBabyBuddah Scientific absurdities? Did'nt I disprove your nonsense and you kept retreating to different scientific facts to argue upon, jumping from topic to topic. Grammatical mistakes? it appears you don't understand the concept of "balagha" (Arabic rhetoric) in classical Arabic, that argument is 20 years old, and has been refuted, care to carry on? "Unintelligible paragraphs", "dubious morality"? You need an education, you keep jumping from topic to topic, your lost
@adz2k112 The Koran has notoriously unintelligible paragraphs, and the research on this is very much alive and the fact of its unintelligibility is uncontroversial among secular researchers of the Koran. It contains traces from other languages, and there is a list of improper use of classical Arabic, then we also have the silly pseudo-scientific hypothesis of "seven solid skies", of shooting stars used to kill devils, of mountains used as paper weights, of humans made of clay, etc etc.
@SuperBabyBuddah: Again, a very ludicrous comment with nothing specific & more general haughty claims.. You cannot even spell the Qur'an correctly, let alone make any sincere effort to figure out what it really is...
@SuperBabyBuddah Hold a minute. You claim that the Quran has "notoriously unintelligble paragraphs"? I think you need to something called "research", the Quran has a very sophisticated structure. It's conveyed with various literary structures, and devices. Chapters and verses adopt phonetic and thematic structures that assist our efforts in remembering the text, or easy to recall, and I personally know this from experience too! Ignorance is a disease, hope you get well soon :)
@adz2k112 What's the point of memorising a scripture phonetically if you do not understand the words being said? The vast majority of Muslims who learn to recite the Qur'an via rote learning still need to go to a translation to figure out what it is they're saying. How is that an argument for the intelligibility of the original text? Well, it isn't.
@SuperBabyBuddah: Memorizing it is largely done for recitation purposes because recitation of Qur'anic verses is an important part of Islam.. obviously you still haven't done any sincere research and have no clue what you're talking about except copy-pasting rhetorical debating points from one of the many Islamophobic websites out there
@SuperBabyBuddah Your now saying to me that; a vast majority of Muslims need to go to the translation in order to understand what the Quran is saying, and how is that an arguement for intelligibility? Firstly, I'm talking about the Quran itself, not the translation, ignore that, look at the Arabic literature, it employs phonetic and thematic structures. Even Richard Gottheil, and Siegmund Frankel, in the Jewish Encyclopedia, compliment the Quran's structure and rhythm.
@adz2k112 BTW, it's spelled "you're lost", or you could also say "your loss", however that was not what you were trying to say. As for me needing an education, well, I think we could all benefit from a little more education, you could start by researching evolution- it will explain many things to you in a way that is neither obscurantist nor condescending to your intelligence, unlike the religious creationist fairy tales you currently admire.
@SuperBabyBuddah Now your telling me to research evolution? see once again your retreating because your fallacies have been debunked. Evolution is the most flawed scientific thesis from the 19th century, you should be ashamed of yourself for calling us primitive, when you approve of a primitive belief, or superstition lol. Darwin's ludicrous belief, that white Europeans are favoured, and Asians and blacks have "lagged behind" in the struggle for survival, I smell Nazi's, do you?
@adz2k112 "Evolution is the most flawed scientific thesis from the 19th century, you should be ashamed of yourself for calling us primitive, when you approve of a primitive belief, or superstition lol." Lol, indeed! Thank you for doing my job for me and for discrediting yourself: you were fed lies and simplistic distortions of what Evolution is about, what Darwin was about, and you are now unable to accept what the scientific community has been building on for over a century. You're BACKWARDS
@SuperBabyBuddah How did I discredit myself? I used your own arguement against you, to discredit you. I proved to you that Islam has solid foundations, you kept jumping from topic to topic, to retreat because I refuted all your irrelevant, baseless arguements. The so called "scientific community", are not even certain about evolution because there is no concrete evidence to support it! Go fire radiation at yourself, you might "evolve" into something better lol
faris710: Should I take your silence about evolution to mean that you deny evolution too? OK. I'm disappointed, but not surprised. I am curious, however; have you got any Muslim friend or family member who does accept evolution via natural selection? There must be many Muslims who have no problem being Muslim and understanding evolution at the same time. Or is that wishful thinking on my part?
@SuperBabyBuddah: Obviously.. unlike someone here, my life is not spent on youtube engaging in mudslinging contests, etc. I have better things to do; like going to work, earning money, putting food on the table for family, etc. When I do find enough time to respond to your comments, you will see them posted here.. Rhetorical polemic & provocation won't help your case, just to be clear.
@faris710 That's a perfectly nice response you've got here. Except it doesn't actually answer the question! The question was whether you accept evolution via natural selection as fact or not. A simple "yes" or "no" would suffice. There was nothing in the original question which could be interpreted as "provocation" or "mudslinging" by the way. If you want to argue that most Muslims aren't drama queens, try to recognise a respectful question when you are asked one, and answer accordingly .
@SuperBabyBuddah: 75% of your comments on my videos are disrespectful to say the least.. It appears your last comment is akin to pot calling the kettle black.
@faris710 Before today I had commented thrice to you on this video. Once to thank you for posting message by people with whom you do not necessarily agree, the second to allow for the likelihood that I was wrong about certain things, and the third to ask you if you believe evolution is a fact (which you still have not dignified with an answer). I see no disrespect towards you.
@SuperBabyBuddah: As to ur answer regarding evolution; I do definitely belief in evolution. As for using 'evolution' as some kind of criteria to satisfy ur desire of Muslims being 'modern', etc; that is quite farcical to say the least. There is a huge 'creationist' movement in the West, particularly the U.S that is devoutly Christian & has attracted secular minds as well.. The other user 'adz2k112' u were arguing with previously seemed to favor creationism or intelligent design
@faris710 Sorry, I had not seen this comment before. I am glad to hear you accept evolution. I was worried. "adz2k112" seemed to argue that as a Muslim, he could not accept evolution. I am glad to see you prove him wrong. And you are right, of course, there is a huge creationist movement in the West, and i would not consider them to be "modern" either. Actually, the term I prefer is not "modern", but "educated".
@SuperBabyBuddah: Well its not about right or wrong; its about personal conviction really. Which Islamic scholar had a profound influence on user 'adz2k112's understanding of Islam is entirely up to him.. Just as if a neutral person attends a creationist seminar where the speaker is more convincing than the other guy at an evolution seminar; he/she might be nudged in to the creationist camp that easily.
@faris710 "Well its not about right or wrong; its about personal conviction really." OK, but are you able to say that a person is morally/ethically wrong when the person wants to attack an apostate for betraying the faith, or a Jew for being Jewish? After all, you might have a different conviction. If you just say that every Muslim must act according to his personal conviction and that we should not judge, then we cannot condemn acts of terrorism, sexism, and bigotry.
@SuperBabyBuddah: Nope, the two are very different. U're equating morals & science, two very different issues. It is explicitly written in Qur'an to NOT harm Jews or Christians as they are 'people of the book' unless they make aggression first. The very assumption that u think Muslims are to kill Jews just for being Jewish goes against historical facts for starters. Evolution involves conviction cuz like I said, Qur'an is NOT a science journal but it 'is' a book of morals & laws
@faris710 I was aware of the "people of the book" verse, but as I said, you've got nicer Mecca era verses and nastier Medina era verses. I find it suspicious that you had previously been so unwilling to characterise the Medina era verses as belligerent and intolerant. It takes away from your credibility as a fair minded person. Taking you up on your point, the real question becomes what constitutes an act of aggression, because obviously many Yihadists consider any refusal of Islam as such.
@SuperBabyBuddah: As I said, if u approach the verses violent jihadis quote with the same mindset as them; ofcourse those verses will seem belligerent & intolerant to u since u'd be reading it out of context without the preceding & succeeding verses. I find it ludicrous that somehow I lose credibility for u when infact it is u who fails to understand the method of understanding those verses as I have pointed out repeatedly.. Man on a mission perhaps?
@faris710 Or we can leave war out of it for a minute. There's historically three ways for a Muslim society to deal with its non-Muslim minorities. One; convert to Islam. Two; the people of the book may maintain their religion but must pay an extra tax and do not enjoy the full rights of the Muslim citizen (may not build more temples, etc). The third option is more unpleasant, to put it mildly. I consider this treatment of minorities to be anti-democratic and anti-human rights. But do you?
@SuperBabyBuddah: Don't know what nonsense u read. Non-Muslims under any Muslim rule are peacefully invited to Islam, if they refuse, that is their choice as Qur'an says explicitly, 'Let there be NO compulsion in religion'. Whats wrong with Jizya tax? Muslims in an Islamic country MUST pay 'zakat' tax which is higher than Jizya & are required by law to serve in the armed forces - non-Muslims are exempt cuz they'r'e protection becomes Muslims' sacred responsibility
@faris710 How would you feel if the government of Canada decided to tax you for being of the "wrong" religion? How about a tax on black people? And you're forgetting that non-Muslims are also second-class citizens in so much as they are not allowed to build more temples, their testimonies in court are not worth that of a Muslim, they are not entitled to inheritance, and so on. If this double standard were applied to you in Canada you'd suddenly realize what's wrong with it.
@SuperBabyBuddah: Again, ur analogy is useless. I already stated that Muslims in an Islamic state pay 'zakat' tax on their wealth from which the non-Muslims are exempt.. instead they pay 'jizya'.. Your argument fails when you start interchanging 'what should be' in the case of an Islamic state's treatment of its non-Muslim citizens to 'what currently is' in the 21st century.. Dont know where u got that nonsense from, non-Muslims are free to build their places of worship..
@faris710 I read the non-apologetic nonsense- so should you. What happens if a non-Muslim refuses to leave the country, refuses to convert to Islam, and refuses to pay an extra tax for being of the "wrong" religion? If the lofty phrase "Let there be no compulsion in religion" were truly representative of Islamic law; there would be NO consequences at all for the refuser. Which begs the question why anybody pays this extra tax and accepts this secondary legal status at all. You tell me!
@SuperBabyBuddah: What happens if you disobey laws of any country? Which country in the world lets someone who disobeys laws just walk free with impunity? Why should there be NO consequence for refusing to observe the law of the land? The lofty phrase I quoted is very explicit.. Non-Muslims have a peaceful invitation to become Muslim, if they opt not to, they can pay jizya tax since zakat tax doesn't apply to them & live their lives & worship their God freely.
@SuperBabyBuddah: Just like adherents of Christianity and the citizens of 'modern liberal democracy' (something you seem to champion) have debate regarding evolution; similarly in Islam there has been and continues to be much debate & competing narratives as to whether evolution is compatible with Islam or not..There are many Islamic scholars who favor evolution, while others creationism.. Here is some basic information:
@faris710 Thanks for the link. Part of my concern stems from a report on Islamic schools in the UK, where evolution was not taught and where opinion polls among Muslim students in these British Madras showed they felt evolution was Western propaganda and "just a theory".
@SuperBabyBuddah: As I said, there are competing narratives and competing interpretations of what the Qur'an says regarding it.. Obviously the Qur'an - even though having some scientific information on certain issues - is NOT a science journal.. I'm not familiar with the issue of Islamic schools in the UK - though I will look in to it - but here in Canada, nothing of the sort to my knowledge
@faris710 To summarize my position; I oppose the reactionary elements of Islam (and Christianity/Judaism/capitalism/communism, etc). I believe it is important to put individual human rights above religious authority. I believe it is important to show that all the holy books were written by fallible men. I believe most Muslims have better things to worry about than theology. But how do you want to diminish sectarian/religious violence without confronting the ideology that spurs the violence?
@SuperBabyBuddah: Well I respectfully disagree.. As a Muslim I know for a fact, it says in the Qur'an that to divide Muslims in to rival sects, etc & then to propagate violence is the biggest sin of all.. So unlike the Protestant/Catholic strife & the wars of the past; the major divide among Muslims - that of Shia/Sunni - is political, not religious necessarily. It all stems from historical issues over who should have inherited the mantle of leadership of Muslims after Prophet
@faris710 I take your point on the division of Sunni and Shia. But where you see friction between progressive Muslims and more reactionary Muslims over issues such as apostasy, homosexuality, women's rights, etc. you have a conflict (both religious and political) where both sides point to their interpretation of the same scriptures to justify their position. If you are interested in disassociating progressive Islam from reactionary Islam you have to wage a war of ideas with the reactionaries.
@SuperBabyBuddah: If you thoroughly follow what exactly do reactionary Muslims quote out of the Qur'an - it is the same that Islamophobes quote.. cherry picking verses to suit agendas.. There are numerous examples of such practices. Ordinary Muslims who form the bulk of Islam's believers laugh at these extremists of two ends of the spectrum going at each other.. There is only 'one' Islam.. the reactionaries are the red-necks & Muslim communities tackle them internally
@faris710 " If you thoroughly follow what exactly do reactionary Muslims quote out of the Qur'an it's the same Islamophobes quote". Of course! Why is this a surprise to you? We've got COUNTLESS examples, growing every month, of intolerant Muslim reactionaries violently lashing out or consistently repressing other Muslims and non-believers in the name of "their" Islam. It's therefore important to point a finger at those verses which they use to justify themselves.
@SuperBabyBuddah: Its NOT a surprise to me at all.. To see Islamophobes & the fanatics in the Muslim world butt heads based on the same 10-12 odd verses is like hearing two empty pots being banged against each other.. Its amusing if not outright entertaining. Finger-pointing is a kiddy exercise, if you want to get to the bottom of something, u do sincere research instead of jumping on the Islamophobia brigade's bandwagon..
@faris710 I doubt it would be very entertaining to you if you were living in any of the number of Islamic countries where violent Yihad is waged on secular Muslims, progressive Muslims, and infidels. It's easy for you to claim Islam is a cuddly teddy bear of a religion while living in Canada. Your Arab neighbours to the south, in the USA, the vast majority of them are Christians who fled persecution. Ask a Lebanese ex-patriot what he/she feels about finger-pointing being a kiddy exercise. ;)
@SuperBabyBuddah: Yeah you should also ask a Lebanese Christian 'why' they became targets of religiously motivated violence; it is cuz the Maronites of Lebanon collaborated with Israel against Palestinian & wider Muslim interests.. Hence, when things got nasty in Lebanon's civil war, retribution was on hand.. Your attempt to disassociate & omit all politics from such conflicts you wish to drag in to this debate & criticize only Islam for it is utter nonsense..
@faris710 Finally, there's too many examples of Islamic societies which were relatively progressive but which were then overrun by reactionary Muslims. These moderate Muslims were not able to "laugh" at the reactionary Muslims as you so cheerfully put it. They ended up losing the struggle for their country. We saw it happen in Iran, in Lebanon, and we're seeing it happen in Egypt now. It's part of the reason why so many Muslim families moved to countries like Canada, to escape.
@SuperBabyBuddah: Thats a highly naive outlook on politics in Islamic countries.. For decades now, the West has supported brutal dictators in most Islamic countries to secure oil & protect the apartheid state of Israel. The Islamic revolution in Iran was a direct result of the repression of previous so-called 'secular' regime. Whats happening in Egypt? Nothing wrong with Muslim Brotherhood winning the elections; they are free & fair elections..
@faris710 "Whats happening in Egypt? Nothing wrong with Muslim Brotherhood winning the elections; they are free & fair elections.." Tell that to the Copts. Persecution of Christians in Egypt is flaring up again, which shows democracy by and of itself is not enough; you need a constitution to guarantee equal rights of minorities, in short; a secular constitution.
@SuperBabyBuddah: And Copts didn't have problems when the West's secular puppet Hosni Mubarak was in power? Muslim Brotherhood hasn't even come to power yet, the elections are continuing as we speak in phases.. the country is ruled by the 'secular' military generals who are lackeys of the West & much adored by Israel as well.. So why all the brouhaha abt Muslims Brotherhood? They have no say in how Egypt is run as yet
@SuperBabyBuddah: There's 'Muslims' & then there are 'crazies'.. The Muslim Brotherhood of today is not the same as that of the 1950s. It is highly pragmatic with a group of skilled politicians & leaders that can really change life for Egyptians for the better as opposed to corrupt dictatorship of Hosni Mubarak.. The MB is not calling for Israel's destruction; they're not closing Egypt's ancient monuments.. Muslims are infact, now winning back their countries from West stooges!
@faris710 "Muslims are infact, now winning back their countries from West stooges!" Muslims are "winnig back their lands" with the help of the West, if you remember how both Saddam Hussein and Ghadafi were finally overthrown. It's true the West supported these dictators, but it would be less than honest of you to ignore the role the West played in taking some of them down as well.
@SuperBabyBuddah: Please spare us ur self-congratulating nonsensical attitude.. Saddam Hussein was only removed for his country's oil.. Same with Gaddafi.. hasn't been long since Gaddafi's death, already massive delegations from foreign oil firms are arriving in Tripoli to seek repayment of the favor that NATO bombing of Gaddafi accrued somehow.. Hence, ur argument that somehow those dictators were removed for the love of Muslim human rights is farcical.
@SuperBabyBuddah: Lets also not forget what happend in Bahrain, when with the tacit approval of the West, particularly the U.S, the Saudis sent in their army to shoot at unarmed protesters. What of Yemen? No oil there. Why not bomb Saleh out of power? He is just been given green-light to go to U.S for medical treatment.. How abt Syria? How abt Egypt where Western firms continued to supply Hosni Mubarak's forces with tear-gas, etc to quell protests; same was done in Libya...
@SuperBabyBuddah Your a waste of time, seriously. And faris710 very good points, you see how flawed his arguments are, so typical of the haters of Islam. I was going to respond to his points but I saw your argument and I thought I won't waste precious time on his fallacies.
@adz2k112 If this is your way of saying that Faris710 is better at arguing his point of view than you are, then I can only agree with you. If I were you, I'd let him do the talking, too. By the way, Faris710 is a Muslim AND he accepts evolution via natural selection as FACT! He knows humans and modern apes share a common ancestor and this does not bother him. It is much easier to take him seriously when he speaks about science than it is to take a creationist like you seriously.
@adz2k112 I haven't asked him, but I'd bet Faris710 is reasonable enough to openly admit that Islam has borrowed many of the characters and adapted many of the stories and shrines of other religions such as Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, etc.It was hard to argue with you, since you are so willing to stubbornly deny the obvious; e.g. Moses is not an Islamic character to begin with, he was a Judaic character- if he appears in the Koran, it's because the Koran borrowed from other religions.
@SuperBabyBuddah: Again, Islam doesn't claim to be a religion from Mars.. it says explicitly in the Qur'an that there is only one 'true' religion which is Islam.. it was sent to Jews via Moses, to Christians via Jesus.. But that they distorted the true message by making man-made changes.. When Qur'an talks abt Jesus & Moses, its not 'borrowing' them from other religions.. it is reclaiming them as they are equally revered by Muslims as Prophets as Muhammad is revered
@faris710 So the dogmas of religions much older than Islam, where they differ from this newer religion, have been polluted and distorted? Of course, only a Muslim would say this. It doesn't speak very highly of your degree of objective research. But fine, how about the belief in Jinn? Their existence is confirmed in Islam, but we know the legends go back to Ancient Sumeria. Is this not a case of borrowing? How about the black stone in the Kaaba, venerated by Arab pagans before Islam?
@SuperBabyBuddah: I didn't say that everything in the Bible or Torah is false.. I said they have been 'distorted'.. meaning humans have made their own additions to the text that should've been left untouched.. You don't have to be a rocket-scientist to figure out how many versions of the Bible there are..
@faris710 How many versions of the Koran are there? There was no collection of revelations when Muhammad died. His followers had to go collect the different revelations. Canonizing the Medinan Codex meant that other codices were ordered to be destroyed. Even after this, variants of the consonantal text survived in the 4th Islamic century. Besides, the consonantal text was unpointed, the dots that distinguish certain letters were missing. There were no signs for short vowels initially.
@SuperBabyBuddah This led to different centres with their own take on how the texts should be vowelized and pointed. Some Muslims preferred codices from Ibn Masud, Ubayy ibn Kad, or Abu Musa, over the Uthmanic codice.
Under Ibn Mujahid's influence; 7 versions were accepted. But other scholars accepted 10 readings, or 14 readings. Even Mujahid allows 14 possibilities since each of his 7 can be traced through 2 different transmitters.
@SuperBabyBuddah: Copy-pasting anti-Islam disinformation from Islamophobic websites verbatim is doing little to demonstrate ur intellectual skills & more to show ur lack of any sincere effort to learn facts. There's NO seven 'versions' of Qur'an. Since Qur'an was recited by Prophet upon receiving revelation to his Companions owing to oral culture of Arabia; 7 accents of Arab tribes existed at the time & 'recitation' in those 7 accents was accepted that didn't change the meaning
@SuperBabyBuddah: Your comment is evidence of ur lack of objective research.. If u look at 6-7th century Arabia, a very strong oral culture prevailed.. Hence, when the Prophet received revelations from God through Gabriel, he recited them to this Companions right away & they would learn it by heart to be passed to others.. WHY the Qur'anic verses were compiled into book form later was cuz of those who had learnt 'all' the verses by heart were being lost in the field of battle
@faris710 This is something which the Koran/Qur'an has in common with other Holy Writ. They all indicate the same phenomenon: These are not God's Words, infallibly reported. These are man-made writings, prone to inconsistencies, discrepancies, variety of possible readings and interpretations, incorporating deliberate distortions and hoaxes, modifications, mistranslations, and nothing in the way of teachings which were impossible to get to by simply using the available doctrines of the time.
@SuperBabyBuddah: As Islamic world began to expand beyond native Arabic speakers to a lot of nations with different languages, directional marks were added so that the Qur'an can be read in the 7 accents that the Prophet (PBUH) authorized since meaning remained the same.
If we gather all Qur'an in the world & burn em, we need only two MUSLIMS who have memorized the Qur'an to gather it again with the same way the Prophet (PBUH) recited it to the first Muslims.
@SuperBabyBuddah How many times do I have to disprove your nonsense? You say Moses is a "judaic character", where is the word "judaism" in the torah, was it the religion of the jews at the time, before they were distorted by the 70 babylonian rabbi's? I did'nt think so. Therefore, Prophet Moses, is a muslim because he taught belief in one God (monotheism), and that's what Islam taught, Islam means submission to one God, so in conclusion Prophet moses is a follower of Islam.
@adz2k112 This is what grown-ups call "historical revisionism". You have to be a Muslim to believe that Moses was a (misunderstood) Muslim, ahead of his time. Most of the world understand Moses was a figure of Jewish religious importance who was then appropriated by Islam and artificially labelled by Muslims as a Muslim, in order to give this new religion of Islam some credentials as being an ancient religion, as beliefs used to be valued (before the advent of science) for their longevity.
@SuperBabyBuddah: You fail to respond the argument raised by user 'adz2k112' regarding the 70 Babylonian rabbis or the use of the word 'judaism' in the Torah.. Instead you continue repeating your rhetorical allegations on Islam pointlessly.
@faris710 It would be pointless to argue with someone who claims the writers of and believers in the Torah were unaware that they were Jewish and that Moses was actually a pre-islamic Muslim. A new religion (e.g. Mormonism) claims Jesus came to America after his resurrection. So what? it's crude revisionism. A new monotheism called Gaïsm could come tomorrow claiming Islam got it wrong too, and that Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad were all actually Gays. It's crude and unconvincing revisionism.
@SuperBabyBuddah: Its not pointless.. There is enough evidence in the Torah & Bible that prophesizes Prophet Muhammad's coming.. Comparing Islam to Mormonism is akin to calling an apple an orange. There's a reason why Judaism, Christianity & Islam are all called Abrahamic religions. Both his sons, Isaac & Ishmael were blessed with nations of their own, Jews (Isaac) & Arabs (Ishmael). I suggest u refrain from disrespectful language or ur comments will be moderated next time.
@faris710 Besides the question of your hypothetical apostasy, the other question I asked you which you seem to ignore is how you would feel if the Canadian government decided to tax Muslims like you for being of "the wrong" religion. How would you feel about an extra tax for black people for being of "the wrong" colour? (We don't even need to get into the non-romanticised, non-apologist, historically documented severity of this system of dhimmi taxes and their accompanying inequalities).
@SuperBabyBuddah: Again, you continue to rant ignorantly by assuming that 'jizya' is some 'extra' tax that non-Muslims have to pay when in fact, it has already been explained to you that 'jizya for non-Muslims replaces 'zakat' that Muslims pay which is higher than 'jizya'.. I'd be damn glad if I had to be pay a tax to Canadian govt that wud replace income tax & was lower than what 'natural Canadians' pay & I was exempt from military service, etc.. I'd be living pretty well.
@SuperBabyBuddah: There are millions of Muslims who believe in evolution and are devoutly Muslim at the same time. As for my personal answer, you can see it below
Among his early victims of assassination we find two poets, one male, one female. Both were guilty of the horrible crime of mocking Muhammad. He had them killed for that, killed in their beds. The poetess was killed surrounded by her children, while suckling a baby to her chest. This is your "perfect man". Muslims today don't understand Free Speech and want to see South Park and Salman Rushdie, and cartoonists burn. Your own Pederast Prophet started this tradition of censorship by sword.
@SuperBabyBuddah then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge"
@adz2k112 The anecdote of Muhammad mercilessly executing 800 of his prisoners and sold their women and children after they had surrendered to him comes from Muslim sources. The Hadith that Muhammad bedded a 9 year old comes from Muslim sources. The stories that Muhammad went to Medina and became the boss of a gang that raided caravans to steal their possession, comes from Muslim sources. Only the conclusion that Muhammad was a criminal, a robber, a mass murderer, and a pederast, is mine.
@SuperBabyBuddah Wait a minute. First of all when we were discussing the Quran manuscripts, I gave you hadith sources, and you said that because its from Hadith, its not reliable. Now, you talk about the execution of 800 soldiers of Banu Qurayzah, who I proved were executed because of them breaking the treaty n attacking the muslims, the 9 year old stuff which I debunked, but you happen to believe them when they're from hadith? Hypocrisy from your end!
@adz2k112 Whether the Hadith are reliable or works of fiction and hoaxes made to sanctify private interests does not matter to me personally as I am not a Muslim. I find it interesting, but that's neither here nor there. You fail to grasp that what I was questioning was the Muslim idea of upholding Muhammad as the perfect paradigm of virtue. Within that discussion it only matters what the sources you accept unquestioningly as reliable say about the man you uncritically take as a role model.
@SuperBabyBuddah The Caravan raid lie exposed: The Muslims attacked the pagan caravan during the WAR, it was a strategic attack to cut off their supplies. Then all the bounties like weapons, food, money were taken, what you expect them to do? leave it in the desert to rot?. Other than war, it is stealing as it is stated "The Prophet has prohibited the Believers from loot and plunder" (Bukhari, AbuDawood). "The loot is no more lawful than the carrion" (Abu Dawood)
@adz2k112 So the raids on the caravan was an aggressive act of war, cutting off their supplies? Isn't that worse than robbery? You're not looting individual merchants, your aim is to cut off a whole population, make them all pay the price for harbouring your enemies. When modern-day Israel does exactly that to Palestinians, you do not consider it OK, but since Muhammad MUST be the Perfect Man, when he does it, it's OK. Hmm.
@SuperBabyBuddah: The source of your disinformation on Islam & its Prophet demonstrate beyond doubt that you, like many other Islamophobes, google Islamophobic websites, copy-paste or regurgitate the same old bile over & over again.. Such as this comment of yours.. Please give us a source as to which poets you're referring to, when were they killed, who killed them, etc. As for South Park millions of Muslims watch it n love it.. Salman Rushdie's case was overblown by zealots.
@faris710 The threat to murder a novelist is "overblown"? Understatement. You say that "many Muslims love SP", but, quite obviously, there are Muslims who threatened the makers of SP for blasphemy. And these "overblown" cases seem to happen quite consistently. The poet and poetess whose murders were ordered by your Prophet (for the crime of "offending" him) were named al-Nader and Asma bint Marwan. These stories are told by Muslim sources, it's not some sort of Western propaganda.
@SuperBabyBuddah: Again, threats were made by a small minority of fanatics to SP producers; you somehow take those few folks to be a representation of Muslims overall than the majority of Muslims who expressed no such intention.. Expressing displeasure at something distasteful such as the depiction of Islam's Prophet in SP episode is anyone's fundamental right. You fail to discern between expression of displeasure & the actual threats of violence. Your word play has little value
@faris710 Are you really telling me that I was claiming that the better part of 1,2 billion Muslims threatened to kill the creators of SP? Of course it was just a "small minority". But when compared to a total of 1,2 billion Muslims, any group of violent thugs can be characterised as a relatively "small minority". You might as well say that the thugs who bombed Christian churches in Sudan at Christmas were "just a small minority".
@SuperBabyBuddah: You are most welcome to 'crunch' specific numbers if u like.. The fact of the matter remains the same in principle.. A tiny fraction of a community cannot be taken as 'representative' of that community. Are we to take all the acts of thuggery, violence, plunder committed by thousands of Christians, Jews, Hindus, secularists in the past & some that continue to this day as representative of those groups? Imperialism, colonialism, Holocaust, Crusades, list goes on
@faris710 I understand your point, and it's something I have given thought about. But I ask you, there is obviously a sort of civil war within Islam. Not just between Sunni and Shia, but between progressive elements and reactionary elements. If you side with the "moderate", or progressive side, how do you confront the reactionary elements WITHOUT addressing their interpretation of Islam? I suggest that confronting the reactionary's ideology is a better alternative to a physical war.
@faris710 The stories of al-Nader and Asma bint Marwan come from 100% Muslim sources. You want to discredit these Muslim stories because I am using them to critique Islam, and to add insult to injury; I am an infidel (I have no obligation to ignore Muhammad's flaws) and I am a Westerner. If I were discrediting your arguments on the basis of your ethnicity or creed, I'd be accused of racism and bigotry. Conclusion: Saying that Muslim traditions are anti-Islamic propaganda won't get you very far.
@SuperBabyBuddah: Perhaps I wasn't clear.. WHAT are your sources on the stories of al-Nader & Asma bint Marwan.. WHERE are these 100% Muslim sources that you speak of.. post a link here or refer a book so that your claim can be verified.. Your self-righteous rhetorical polemic holds no value for me to respond to since its nothing but trolling on your part. There is nothing in my previous comments to suggest I am discrediting ur comments just cuz I suspect you to be a westerner.
@faris710 Is that it? You're going to insist that al-Nader and Asma bint Marwan are Western fabrications? I've read about them through Sprenger, one of the people applying the historical critical method to Islam. Asma's story features in the writings of Ibn Ishaq and Ibn Sa'd al-Baghdadi. Al-Naser's story was told by Ibn Hisham & Ibn Ishaq, and Sirat Rasul Allah. I'm sorry I cannot provide a link, as I am using an old-fashioned book. I could recommend you a book if you wish!
@SuperBabyBuddahz; Sorry what a lame excuse of a comment.. Your earlier claim was u got ur information from 100% Muslim sources & now you say its Sprenger.. in any case, provide the book's ISBN, year of publishing, publisher's name, author's name & book title here. Lets find out credentials of Mr Sprenger, an unknown.. Lets see you quoting out of Ibn Ishaq or any of the other Muslim sourced you point to..
@faris710 Would it really matter if I provided you with the ISBN? You're just itching to write off the messenger so you won't have to deal with the message.
@faris710 He will never be able to provide it, he makes radical assumptions, superstitions about certain things, he does'nt have a clue about anything. He will keep jumping from topic to topic, he's a failure.
@faris710 Sprenger is but one of the scholars I mentioned whose work features in historical critical studies of the Koran. They relied on 100% Muslim sources, but not uncritically. Sprenger is not only respected by Western scholars but his scholarly services are also recognised by Muslim men of learning, which apparently does not include you.Hate to say it, but "GOOGLE IT"! Google "Dr Aloys Sprenger (1813-1839) Muhammad Ikram Chaghatai" to see a synopsis of his contributions by Mr Chaghatai.
Muhammad's message changed drastically from his Mecca period to his Medina period, where he turned to crime. He robbed, killed, massacred, beheaded his prisoners in public, five or six at a time, beginning in the morning and ending in the evening, 800 beheaded prisoners who had surrendered and begged for mercy and forgiveness. After the executions he went home to rape one of the orphaned widows, the other women and children were sold into slavery. This is your "perfect man".
@SuperBabyBuddah But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity,
@adz2k112 in other words: you get a time-out to flee (abandoning the homes of your families/your ancestors) or you can stay and convert to Islam..or stay and be killed. That is somehow NOT compulsion in religion to you? That is somehow NOT advocating violence against people for the simple crime of not believing what you believe? To me, it reeks of divinely ordered and ordained fascism.
Reading many of the comments made here by user 'SuperBabyBuddah' and 'adz2k112', the only conclusion that can be drawn is, you are both ill-informed regarding the positions you are taking vis-a-vis some of the themes and topics you seem to be attempting to debate..
@faris710 You're probably right. I'm a fallible person. I don't believe infallible books or infallible people exist. But whatever mistakes or gross over-simplifications I may be guilty of, please tell me that you agree adzk2k112 is wrong about evolution. Please tell me you know evolution is a fact.
One of the biggest scientific discoveries has been evolution via natural selection. This has had a dramatic impact on our knowledge of the world, much bigger than any religion. It changed how we understand nature, it changed how we think about animals and plants, it changed our our medicine, etc. Maybe you can help me by showing me which Surah explains that for billions of years life on earth evolved from one common ancestor into all species of plants, bacteria, and animals.
@SuperBabyBuddah Right, so now your bring forth a thesis (evolution) from the 19th century, and you have a problem with the Quran coming from years ago, yet you believe in this primitive scientific belief that is 160 years old? Your a free thinker right? Evolution has the fundamental belief that; mutations occur causing changes in an organism. Funny enough, mutations cause an organisms cells to become cancerous, your a free thinker right?
@adz2k112 The problem with Divine Revelation is not its antiquity, but its method of gaining knowledge. We're supposed to believe a story about a guy who may have heard voices in his head. The scientific method has done more work in 160 years, ran more tests and experiments than any religion has in a thousand.
I understand from your comment that you believe evolution is false?
And you want to champion the Quran on the basis of scientific validity?
@SuperBabyBuddah Have you ever read about the Islamic Golden age, as how it advanced in science, mathematics etc. It gave people the method of gaining knowledge, even the prophet said "seek knowledge as far as China". The Quran has scientific validity, you keep challengeing it with falsehood, assumptions for some reason.
@adz2k112 The Islamic Golden Age was wonderful for its time, until Muslim authorities became reactionary (similar to the Church during the Inquisition), and decided to suppress their scientists. Today the Islamic world contributes VERY LITTLE in the area of scientific publications. Compare it to the non-Islamic Asian world, China included. Islamic science is in arrested development. If the Quran was so scientific, how come Muslims are lagging behind? You do not even understand evolution!!!!
@SuperBabyBuddah So you acknowledge the Islamic Golden age, well done. Now you've made a baseless claim that muslim authorities became reactionary? where is your proof? Muslim countries invest and speak very highly of education, look at the UAE. In fact I know someone who came from palestine, 5 years ago, and he's a doctor, born and bred in Gaza, so don't give me shit
@adz2k112 You know a doctor? Wow. I guess my point about the comparatively low amount of scientific publications coming out of Islamic countries has been debunked and burned to the ground, no? Or, better yet, decapitated and thrown into a ditch along with the rest of my arguments after they had surrendered to your superiour intellect. (In case you notice an itch between the ears...yes, that was an allusion to Muhammad's wicked treatment of his prisoners).
@SuperBabyBuddah Debunked and burned? Where is your evidence that they have been debunked? Cite your sources, your making assumptions. The only example of "prisoners" you can give is the Banu Qurayzah tribe, who for the 1000th time besieged the muslims whilst they were fighting the pagans, they broke the treaty and suffered the consquences. And like I said before, in Islam a slave cannot be mistreated or oppressed
@adz2k112 Again, for the 1001th time: They had surrendered and pleaded for mercy. Cruelly killing prisoners after they had surrendered and were disarmed is BARBARIC. If Allah is supposed to be merciful, he was not on that day. I find it disturbing how you insist on excusing this barbaric treatment of prisoners of war. Imagine if Israel beheaded their Palestinian POWs. You would not hesitate one second to denounce all Jews as wicked for the barbaric act. But when it comes to Muhammad...
@adz2k112 They Qurayzah had surrendered and pleaded for mercy. Cruelly killing prisoners after they surrender and were disarmed is BARBARIC. I find it disturbing how you insist on excusing this barbaric treatment of prisoners of war. Imagine if Israel beheaded their Palestinian POW. You would not hesitate one second to denounce all Jews as evil. "in Islam a slave cannot be oppressed"? Please explain how you can have enslavement without oppression, genius?
@adz2k112 Islam tells you, the same way Christianity used to do (back when people still paid attention), that this Book contains God's Word. Questioning it is, as you have said yourself "attacking" your religion. Science and rational thinking does the opposite: the truth can always be questioned. It can always be improved, better informed, sometimes even radically undermined.
This is why you cannot be a free-thinker THANKS to Islam. You have to try to be one despite it. (You fail, by the way)
Tell me more! I want to know what passes as an education in science in your house! Do you deny that humans and chimpanzees share a common ancestor? Do you believe all species were created simultaneously and have not changed? How old is Earth, according to Islamic revelation?
@SuperBabyBuddah Your saying to me that you want to know what passes as an education in science in my house, when you say that chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestor? If you believe we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys in the world? why did'nt they evolve? why were they left behind? Who is this ancestor of the chimpanzee? LOL! Like I said evolution's fundamental belief is that monkeys mutated to humans, when mutations cause cells that are cancerous! FLAW
@adz2k112 Without evolution, we cannot explain DNA , or the fossil record, or why vaccines work. Do you accept that humans are an animal species? I bet you don’t. To deny evolution, you must deny the pattern we discovered in the DNA of every single organism studied so far. You must deny your own vestigial tail. Does the Quran explain the vestigial tail? You try to abuse science to make Islam look modern, but you expose how ignorant you are of its core principles.
@SuperBabyBuddah Evolutions core principals are mutations, mutations cause cells that are cancerous, so thats flawed. The Quran is not a science book, it may explain scientific facts, but it certainly disproves the evolution scam. All the fossils prove creation, but darwinism maintains the opposite, it claims proteins came into being by chance, when there is a 1 in 10 to the power of 950 chance of this happening, which is basically impossible lol
@adz2k112 Evolutions runs on a little motor called "natural selection". Mutations are quite rare and more often than not, can be bad for you. Whoever told you evolution is a theory of mutating our way from one celled organisms to I-Pod wielding homo sapiens was giving you the cheap, 1 minute Creationist version of evolution (intended to distort the theory to make it simple for simpletons to reject out of hand).
@SuperBabyBuddah When I said the Quran is not a science book. What I meant was that it doesnt speak about science entirely, It gives accurate scientific examples to show God's truth. You have'nt spoken a word of smartness, all you have given in fallacies, and I've proved them
@adz2k112 When you said the Quran is not a book of science, you came as close as your religion permits you to say that the Quran is not a good source for science. If you're serious about science you'll see that the idea of mountain=pegs has no following in the geologist community. You may find one charitable quote here, or another misappropriation of an article there, but you would not need to resort to these if the idea was accepted. You'd find the mountain peg idea published in schoolbooks.
@adz2k112 I know I won't change your religiously ordained misconceptions about mountains, so I invite your religiously ordained misconceptions on evolution. You already admitted that you do not believe humans and modern apes share a common ancestor. Now I want you to answer the other questions you've ignored:
1-What does your vestigial tail say about you? 2-Are humans animals? Show me how thorough your commitment is to old superstitions and religion and not to science.
@adz2k112 Do you deny the DNA sequencing that shows how closely related humans are to chimpanzees? Do you deny that DNA shows that we're more closely related to apes than we are to any other animal? Do you believe that DNA is simply Western propaganda? Do you believe DNA is a Zionist lie intended to make Muslim apologists look reactionary and uneducated?
@adz2k112 Do you believe all species of animals were created simultaneously and have remained unchanged since? Did you know that whales and hippopotamus share a more recent common ancestor amongst themselves than to any other animal? You see, evolution is a fascinating science. It explains so many things. I know I mock you, but really I feel sorry for people like you, the way you misuse science to try to support religious dogma. You're missing out on the noblest and humblest of human endeavours.
@SuperBabyBuddah Islam never said what christianity said. Bible says jesus said: "And as for these enemies of mine who didn't want me to be their king, bring them in and execute them right here in front of me" (Luke 19:27). Quran: "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error" (2:256). The distinction is that Islam allowed free thinking for whoever wanted to enter it, christianity never did. So you fail, go home and take you evolution book with you
@adz2k112 Now, it's one thing to be an ignoramus. There's no shame in that. We cannot blame the human authors of the Quran for knowing nothing about the helio-centered solar system, or the origin of mountains, or the shaping of continents, or the fact of evolution, or the existence of germs, or a thlusand other things they were ignorant of. They were men of their time. They have an excuse. YOU, however, live in the 21st century. YOU have no excuse for the ignorance you show me in every comment.
@adz2k112 You are the best reason I know to doubt evolution, that's for sure. The Quran also says; "Kill the non-believers wherever you may find them". To disbelieve is to be killed, what can be more compulsory than that? Apostasy in Islam is technically punishable by death. No compulsion in religion, you say? Let's just say Muhammad the Pederast Prophet changed his mind when he ruled Medina.
@SuperBabyBuddah That's another lie, christianity forbade any science and rationale, Islam never did, look at great muslim scholars like Ibn Rushd who influenced the renaissance when the christian west was drowning in the dark ages, or Ibn sina etc. I studied the Quran, CAREFULLY, and discovered that it was the truth. It gave me the inspiration to go seek knowledge. I'm educated here in the west, I was raised here, and I'm studying a degree in law, so I'm not stupid
@adz2k112 "That's another lie, christianity forbade any science and rationale, Islam never did, " Well, here's a wonderful opportunity to show us what you know about the history of Islam. We can agree that the Islamic world has lost the scientific race a looong time ago. The Islamic Golden Age is called that because it is history. An age that has passed. Now YOU explain why that happened. Try not to blame Israel or the USA, as they did not exist at the time.
@SuperBabyBuddah The reason why it golden age came to an end was due to internal conflict, infiltrations by secret orders, segregating, dividing the muslim communities which lead all the way to the collapse of the Muslim empire in 1918. Algebra, for example, was invented by the muslim scholar of Al-Khwarizmi in 820. Algebra is still studied in schools, universities. The muslims laid the foundations of many discoveries which were later developed further. So don't discredit!
@adz2k112 ...and you forgot to mention, reactionary Muslims who felt further scientific research was not as important as learning the Quran and Hadith. Anyway, glad to help.
lol, what a joke she is, I will write a book which she will be doing the talk, it is non stuipte
hamidf420 1 day ago
i dont know if she's a fascist, but islam certainly is a totalitarian religion so go shove a pipe up your ass and scream allahu wankbar!!!
halflifeproductionz 2 days ago
Stupid Woman!
GoyUnHuman 4 days ago
She doesn't believe in god
But she believes in the devil
reece9886 4 days ago
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a mirror-image of Radical Islam. Like Radical Islam she bypasses the normative Islamic tradition in terms of interpreting and understanding the Qur'an and Sunnah and goes directly to these two sources herself assuming that she can understand them better than the cumulative wisdom of the great Islamic scholars over centuries. The Radicals likewise make this error. Qur'an and Hadith scholarship has a long and complex history; and to ignore that is dishonest.
bayreuth79 1 week ago
@bayreuth79: Spot on!
faris710 4 days ago
She said "the facts that are in the Qur'an and Hadith..." she used the word "facts". By Allah, this slip of the tongue has proven something very interesting. In Islam, the word "kufr" means "to cover", specifically the one who covers up the truth (of Islam). She is a kuffar because she knows the Qur'an is fact and she is attempting to cover it up, even to herself. The worse of humanity.
Chordiegurl 2 weeks ago
6:34 - What he says seems true, she is a mirror image of radical islam in that she is radically against islam - and that's exactly what we need! "The position of Prussia in Germany will not be determined by its liberalism but by its power" You can't wipe out such radicalism with a soft tolerant touch. It needs a strong hand to weed it out. And for that reason Ayaan is the perfect spearhead of this movement. She knows what she's fighting - she was brought up in it.
Tryfing94 1 month ago
@Tryfing94: And your ignorant nonsensical diatribe hardly has a leg to stand on.. More people convert to Islam every year than to any other religion across the world out of their own free choice.. Perhaps those people know something errant Islamophobes like you have yet to discover.. Nor can you lay claim to any historical process by which Islam posed aggression towards anyone in contrast to European crusades, colonialism & imperialism & the barbaric World Wars.. Get educated kid.
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 The fact that many do that suggests two things - one that radical islamists like two spread propaganda, two, that if it is true, then we have more dipshits around than I thought. Two wrongs don't make a right. I'll simply point to the present, wherein you merely have to open your eyes to see the disgusting shit, honour killings etc etc, and to the past, when your own prophet married a nine year old, and your holy book spread antisemitic ideas. Your very ideology is disgusting mate.
Tryfing94 1 month ago
@Tryfing94: More errant nonsense based on ignorance.. Whether the Prophet married a nine year old or not, is still up for debate; there exists no definitive evidence that this was the case.. Even if it was, up until the 20th century, many states in the U.S allowed a marriages of girls between the ages of 10-12yrs old.. Go read some history for Pete's sakes! Who invented the car bombing? An Italian (Christian).. Who invented modern-day suicide bombing? Tamil Tigers (Hindu terror group)
faris710 4 days ago
@faris710 hello, child marriage was allowed in US untill 20th century but US dont claim to be the last prophet . At on point you say Muhammad is the greatest man and then compare him to what was happening in US. I say it was wrong what was happening in US during the 20th which logically makes make muhammad a wrongdoer. i accept muslims are so innocent. who invented flying planes into buildings? Buddhist i guess.
dubi186 2 days ago
@faris710 And no, I don't love the jews, but I sure as hell am disgusted by racism. I never defended the crusades either, if anything I hate Christianity just as much, but you only see stupid televangelists these days. I don't see much honour killing, female mutilation etc etc from the Christian community.
Tryfing94 1 month ago
@Tryfing94: Honor killing & female genital mutilation exists & continues to thrive in Christian communities across Africa.. One wonders if you ever do any research on a subject before posting haughty comments
faris710 4 days ago
@faris710 and Tryfing94
Most Muslims do not interpret the Qu'ran as she does. She insists on a hateful interpretation of the Qu'ran and asserts that peaceful Muslims are interpreting the text wrongly. Rather it seems that she is the hateful one who would not tolerate Muslims who are moderate.
Taoism is sexist, Christianity is cruel, Islam is no different. These debates should be from epistemology or human rights, not from faux liberalism under the guise of hackneyed freedom fighting.
makronic 3 weeks ago
@faris710 Islam is the fastest growing religion because of freedoms of the west, which fucking Islamic countries dont allow. period.
dubi186 3 weeks ago
@dubi186: Yeh right! Go to your nearest library & do some research instead of reading misinformation off of Islamophobic websites.. Except for a very few, most Muslim countries have an abundance of Churches, missionary schools & conversion activities going on, have Christians in positions of power in govt institutions, etc.. Your comment goes to show just how much bliss ignorance truly is.
faris710 4 days ago
@faris710 Come on! u are not the first one to say i should go and read quran or do research. Why dont you provide some information because I have been living in a muslim country. Which muslim countries allow freedom of religion and preaching? position of power for christian? and conversions? can you name some Islamic countries.? you are a joke.
dubi186 4 days ago
The interviewer is SMART.... ;)
irfanmindian 1 month ago
@faris710 can you quote for me a sentance by Ayaan, from this clip, which is hateful or fascistic (since you claim in description of this clip that she has "hateful & fascist leanings")? The last paragraph of that descriptions seems to imply that Christian-Evangelicals are generally hateful & fascistic. Isn't that the same kind of language that offends muslims, when is used to critisize them?
PitBoruta 1 month ago
@PitBoruta: I don't have to be a rocket-scientist to figure out the far-right Evangelical take on Armageddon, which is why idiots constituting the American political leadership - worst of whom is the Tea Party - continue to protect the apartheid state of Israel without exercising their influence & power to bring about a 'just' settlement to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict; the biggest thorn in relations b/w Islam & the West. Ayaan is just a cheap mouthpiece of such interest groups
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 it seems that you can't critisize muslims or islam without them talking about Israel/Palestine conflict. Not everyone who have issue with the way that muslims behave or their holy book have to be pro America/Israel. Is it possible for muslims to divide their religion and their politics? I agree that American evangelican right is delusional group of bigots, but so are muslims who want to implement sharia or motivate thamselves to perform terrorist acts in the name of jihad
PitBoruta 1 month ago
@PitBoruta: Please DO tell us how many Muslims want to implement sharia in YOUR country.. or for that fact, in their OWN countries.. The only country in the world where a primitive & literal interpretation of sharia (the type that scares you) is imposed on the citizenry is Saudi Arabia.. the closest ally of the U.S in the Middle East with its totalitarian & corrupt monarchs.. And Israeli-Palestinian conflict 'is' the biggest thorn in Muslim-Western relations whether u like it or not.
faris710 4 days ago
She's Hot!
mrthebillman 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: I've hardly met any Muslim who wants to 'impose' sharia on non-Islamic countries.. This is just plain Islamophobic rhetoric propagated by the anti-Islam brigade via yellow-journalism.. What the Muslims in 'some' European countries want is, sharia based courts for judging 'family matters' -its nothing that will infringe on any Euro legal system since some EU countries already have 'Jewish' religious courts to deal with Jewish family matters. So why discriminate?
faris710 1 month ago
a verry sick women not a muslim would by her crap book 1 we have 4 millions copies of the coran witing bye arabes christians try to change words in the coran the books of the hathites are the same she only want attentoin and money A VERRY SICK WOMEN
cobraking017 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah And the best way to do undermine the wave of reactionary Islam is to submit the Koran and the traditions to the same historical critical method that we used on the Bible and the Torah. The conclusions and the various hypotheses that result from this ongoing investigation are new to most Muslims, yourself included- and will probably never be palatable to you, since dogmatic believers consider it to be sacrilegious to think of these texts as written by fallible men.
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: I have yet to see u quote or specifically cite any 'conclusions' by historical critical research & other gibberish.. Common sense doesn't seem to be palatable to you since your dogmatic belief that Islam is inherently evil has become something of an issue of cognitive dissonance as anything contrary to your belief regarding Islam that is presented to you is met by sheer disbelief. So you see, you're not much different from the lot you just criticized...
faris710 1 month ago
A question to both of you; imagine you started having doubts. Imagine you noticed the scientific absurdities in the Koran, or the grammatical mistakes, the unintelligible paragraphs, Muhammad's highly dubious morality, and you were forced to admit to yourselves that this book was written not by God but by fallible human writers. Could you leave Islam and become an apostate without any problems? Would you be able to be open about it?
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: I have studied the Bible, Torah, Vedas and the Qur'an.. I am intelligent enough to figure out which one of these is not corrupted by human intervention.. Qur'an is the only one that stands out. U'd have to be devoid of intelligence if u fault Muhammad's character or knit-pick verses out of Qur'an to advocate an agenda of ur own.. Hence, I cannot imagine myself as anything but Muslim.
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 well said faris!
adz2k112 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah Scientific absurdities? Did'nt I disprove your nonsense and you kept retreating to different scientific facts to argue upon, jumping from topic to topic. Grammatical mistakes? it appears you don't understand the concept of "balagha" (Arabic rhetoric) in classical Arabic, that argument is 20 years old, and has been refuted, care to carry on? "Unintelligible paragraphs", "dubious morality"? You need an education, you keep jumping from topic to topic, your lost
adz2k112 1 month ago
@adz2k112 The Koran has notoriously unintelligible paragraphs, and the research on this is very much alive and the fact of its unintelligibility is uncontroversial among secular researchers of the Koran. It contains traces from other languages, and there is a list of improper use of classical Arabic, then we also have the silly pseudo-scientific hypothesis of "seven solid skies", of shooting stars used to kill devils, of mountains used as paper weights, of humans made of clay, etc etc.
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: Again, a very ludicrous comment with nothing specific & more general haughty claims.. You cannot even spell the Qur'an correctly, let alone make any sincere effort to figure out what it really is...
faris710 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah Hold a minute. You claim that the Quran has "notoriously unintelligble paragraphs"? I think you need to something called "research", the Quran has a very sophisticated structure. It's conveyed with various literary structures, and devices. Chapters and verses adopt phonetic and thematic structures that assist our efforts in remembering the text, or easy to recall, and I personally know this from experience too! Ignorance is a disease, hope you get well soon :)
adz2k112 1 month ago
@adz2k112 What's the point of memorising a scripture phonetically if you do not understand the words being said? The vast majority of Muslims who learn to recite the Qur'an via rote learning still need to go to a translation to figure out what it is they're saying. How is that an argument for the intelligibility of the original text? Well, it isn't.
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: Memorizing it is largely done for recitation purposes because recitation of Qur'anic verses is an important part of Islam.. obviously you still haven't done any sincere research and have no clue what you're talking about except copy-pasting rhetorical debating points from one of the many Islamophobic websites out there
faris710 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah Your now saying to me that; a vast majority of Muslims need to go to the translation in order to understand what the Quran is saying, and how is that an arguement for intelligibility? Firstly, I'm talking about the Quran itself, not the translation, ignore that, look at the Arabic literature, it employs phonetic and thematic structures. Even Richard Gottheil, and Siegmund Frankel, in the Jewish Encyclopedia, compliment the Quran's structure and rhythm.
adz2k112 1 month ago
@adz2k112 BTW, it's spelled "you're lost", or you could also say "your loss", however that was not what you were trying to say. As for me needing an education, well, I think we could all benefit from a little more education, you could start by researching evolution- it will explain many things to you in a way that is neither obscurantist nor condescending to your intelligence, unlike the religious creationist fairy tales you currently admire.
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah Now your telling me to research evolution? see once again your retreating because your fallacies have been debunked. Evolution is the most flawed scientific thesis from the 19th century, you should be ashamed of yourself for calling us primitive, when you approve of a primitive belief, or superstition lol. Darwin's ludicrous belief, that white Europeans are favoured, and Asians and blacks have "lagged behind" in the struggle for survival, I smell Nazi's, do you?
adz2k112 1 month ago
@adz2k112 "Evolution is the most flawed scientific thesis from the 19th century, you should be ashamed of yourself for calling us primitive, when you approve of a primitive belief, or superstition lol." Lol, indeed! Thank you for doing my job for me and for discrediting yourself: you were fed lies and simplistic distortions of what Evolution is about, what Darwin was about, and you are now unable to accept what the scientific community has been building on for over a century. You're BACKWARDS
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah How did I discredit myself? I used your own arguement against you, to discredit you. I proved to you that Islam has solid foundations, you kept jumping from topic to topic, to retreat because I refuted all your irrelevant, baseless arguements. The so called "scientific community", are not even certain about evolution because there is no concrete evidence to support it! Go fire radiation at yourself, you might "evolve" into something better lol
adz2k112 1 month ago
faris710: Should I take your silence about evolution to mean that you deny evolution too? OK. I'm disappointed, but not surprised. I am curious, however; have you got any Muslim friend or family member who does accept evolution via natural selection? There must be many Muslims who have no problem being Muslim and understanding evolution at the same time. Or is that wishful thinking on my part?
SuperBabyBuddah 2 months ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: Obviously.. unlike someone here, my life is not spent on youtube engaging in mudslinging contests, etc. I have better things to do; like going to work, earning money, putting food on the table for family, etc. When I do find enough time to respond to your comments, you will see them posted here.. Rhetorical polemic & provocation won't help your case, just to be clear.
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 That's a perfectly nice response you've got here. Except it doesn't actually answer the question! The question was whether you accept evolution via natural selection as fact or not. A simple "yes" or "no" would suffice. There was nothing in the original question which could be interpreted as "provocation" or "mudslinging" by the way. If you want to argue that most Muslims aren't drama queens, try to recognise a respectful question when you are asked one, and answer accordingly .
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: 75% of your comments on my videos are disrespectful to say the least.. It appears your last comment is akin to pot calling the kettle black.
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 Before today I had commented thrice to you on this video. Once to thank you for posting message by people with whom you do not necessarily agree, the second to allow for the likelihood that I was wrong about certain things, and the third to ask you if you believe evolution is a fact (which you still have not dignified with an answer). I see no disrespect towards you.
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: As to ur answer regarding evolution; I do definitely belief in evolution. As for using 'evolution' as some kind of criteria to satisfy ur desire of Muslims being 'modern', etc; that is quite farcical to say the least. There is a huge 'creationist' movement in the West, particularly the U.S that is devoutly Christian & has attracted secular minds as well.. The other user 'adz2k112' u were arguing with previously seemed to favor creationism or intelligent design
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 Sorry, I had not seen this comment before. I am glad to hear you accept evolution. I was worried. "adz2k112" seemed to argue that as a Muslim, he could not accept evolution. I am glad to see you prove him wrong. And you are right, of course, there is a huge creationist movement in the West, and i would not consider them to be "modern" either. Actually, the term I prefer is not "modern", but "educated".
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: Well its not about right or wrong; its about personal conviction really. Which Islamic scholar had a profound influence on user 'adz2k112's understanding of Islam is entirely up to him.. Just as if a neutral person attends a creationist seminar where the speaker is more convincing than the other guy at an evolution seminar; he/she might be nudged in to the creationist camp that easily.
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 "Well its not about right or wrong; its about personal conviction really." OK, but are you able to say that a person is morally/ethically wrong when the person wants to attack an apostate for betraying the faith, or a Jew for being Jewish? After all, you might have a different conviction. If you just say that every Muslim must act according to his personal conviction and that we should not judge, then we cannot condemn acts of terrorism, sexism, and bigotry.
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: Nope, the two are very different. U're equating morals & science, two very different issues. It is explicitly written in Qur'an to NOT harm Jews or Christians as they are 'people of the book' unless they make aggression first. The very assumption that u think Muslims are to kill Jews just for being Jewish goes against historical facts for starters. Evolution involves conviction cuz like I said, Qur'an is NOT a science journal but it 'is' a book of morals & laws
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 I was aware of the "people of the book" verse, but as I said, you've got nicer Mecca era verses and nastier Medina era verses. I find it suspicious that you had previously been so unwilling to characterise the Medina era verses as belligerent and intolerant. It takes away from your credibility as a fair minded person. Taking you up on your point, the real question becomes what constitutes an act of aggression, because obviously many Yihadists consider any refusal of Islam as such.
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: As I said, if u approach the verses violent jihadis quote with the same mindset as them; ofcourse those verses will seem belligerent & intolerant to u since u'd be reading it out of context without the preceding & succeeding verses. I find it ludicrous that somehow I lose credibility for u when infact it is u who fails to understand the method of understanding those verses as I have pointed out repeatedly.. Man on a mission perhaps?
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 Or we can leave war out of it for a minute. There's historically three ways for a Muslim society to deal with its non-Muslim minorities. One; convert to Islam. Two; the people of the book may maintain their religion but must pay an extra tax and do not enjoy the full rights of the Muslim citizen (may not build more temples, etc). The third option is more unpleasant, to put it mildly. I consider this treatment of minorities to be anti-democratic and anti-human rights. But do you?
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: Don't know what nonsense u read. Non-Muslims under any Muslim rule are peacefully invited to Islam, if they refuse, that is their choice as Qur'an says explicitly, 'Let there be NO compulsion in religion'. Whats wrong with Jizya tax? Muslims in an Islamic country MUST pay 'zakat' tax which is higher than Jizya & are required by law to serve in the armed forces - non-Muslims are exempt cuz they'r'e protection becomes Muslims' sacred responsibility
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 How would you feel if the government of Canada decided to tax you for being of the "wrong" religion? How about a tax on black people? And you're forgetting that non-Muslims are also second-class citizens in so much as they are not allowed to build more temples, their testimonies in court are not worth that of a Muslim, they are not entitled to inheritance, and so on. If this double standard were applied to you in Canada you'd suddenly realize what's wrong with it.
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: Again, ur analogy is useless. I already stated that Muslims in an Islamic state pay 'zakat' tax on their wealth from which the non-Muslims are exempt.. instead they pay 'jizya'.. Your argument fails when you start interchanging 'what should be' in the case of an Islamic state's treatment of its non-Muslim citizens to 'what currently is' in the 21st century.. Dont know where u got that nonsense from, non-Muslims are free to build their places of worship..
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 I read the non-apologetic nonsense- so should you. What happens if a non-Muslim refuses to leave the country, refuses to convert to Islam, and refuses to pay an extra tax for being of the "wrong" religion? If the lofty phrase "Let there be no compulsion in religion" were truly representative of Islamic law; there would be NO consequences at all for the refuser. Which begs the question why anybody pays this extra tax and accepts this secondary legal status at all. You tell me!
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: What happens if you disobey laws of any country? Which country in the world lets someone who disobeys laws just walk free with impunity? Why should there be NO consequence for refusing to observe the law of the land? The lofty phrase I quoted is very explicit.. Non-Muslims have a peaceful invitation to become Muslim, if they opt not to, they can pay jizya tax since zakat tax doesn't apply to them & live their lives & worship their God freely.
faris710 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: Just like adherents of Christianity and the citizens of 'modern liberal democracy' (something you seem to champion) have debate regarding evolution; similarly in Islam there has been and continues to be much debate & competing narratives as to whether evolution is compatible with Islam or not..There are many Islamic scholars who favor evolution, while others creationism.. Here is some basic information:
en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Islamic views on evolution
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 Thanks for the link. Part of my concern stems from a report on Islamic schools in the UK, where evolution was not taught and where opinion polls among Muslim students in these British Madras showed they felt evolution was Western propaganda and "just a theory".
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: As I said, there are competing narratives and competing interpretations of what the Qur'an says regarding it.. Obviously the Qur'an - even though having some scientific information on certain issues - is NOT a science journal.. I'm not familiar with the issue of Islamic schools in the UK - though I will look in to it - but here in Canada, nothing of the sort to my knowledge
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 To summarize my position; I oppose the reactionary elements of Islam (and Christianity/Judaism/capitalism/communism, etc). I believe it is important to put individual human rights above religious authority. I believe it is important to show that all the holy books were written by fallible men. I believe most Muslims have better things to worry about than theology. But how do you want to diminish sectarian/religious violence without confronting the ideology that spurs the violence?
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: Well I respectfully disagree.. As a Muslim I know for a fact, it says in the Qur'an that to divide Muslims in to rival sects, etc & then to propagate violence is the biggest sin of all.. So unlike the Protestant/Catholic strife & the wars of the past; the major divide among Muslims - that of Shia/Sunni - is political, not religious necessarily. It all stems from historical issues over who should have inherited the mantle of leadership of Muslims after Prophet
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 I take your point on the division of Sunni and Shia. But where you see friction between progressive Muslims and more reactionary Muslims over issues such as apostasy, homosexuality, women's rights, etc. you have a conflict (both religious and political) where both sides point to their interpretation of the same scriptures to justify their position. If you are interested in disassociating progressive Islam from reactionary Islam you have to wage a war of ideas with the reactionaries.
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: If you thoroughly follow what exactly do reactionary Muslims quote out of the Qur'an - it is the same that Islamophobes quote.. cherry picking verses to suit agendas.. There are numerous examples of such practices. Ordinary Muslims who form the bulk of Islam's believers laugh at these extremists of two ends of the spectrum going at each other.. There is only 'one' Islam.. the reactionaries are the red-necks & Muslim communities tackle them internally
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 " If you thoroughly follow what exactly do reactionary Muslims quote out of the Qur'an it's the same Islamophobes quote". Of course! Why is this a surprise to you? We've got COUNTLESS examples, growing every month, of intolerant Muslim reactionaries violently lashing out or consistently repressing other Muslims and non-believers in the name of "their" Islam. It's therefore important to point a finger at those verses which they use to justify themselves.
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: Its NOT a surprise to me at all.. To see Islamophobes & the fanatics in the Muslim world butt heads based on the same 10-12 odd verses is like hearing two empty pots being banged against each other.. Its amusing if not outright entertaining. Finger-pointing is a kiddy exercise, if you want to get to the bottom of something, u do sincere research instead of jumping on the Islamophobia brigade's bandwagon..
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 I doubt it would be very entertaining to you if you were living in any of the number of Islamic countries where violent Yihad is waged on secular Muslims, progressive Muslims, and infidels. It's easy for you to claim Islam is a cuddly teddy bear of a religion while living in Canada. Your Arab neighbours to the south, in the USA, the vast majority of them are Christians who fled persecution. Ask a Lebanese ex-patriot what he/she feels about finger-pointing being a kiddy exercise. ;)
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: Yeah you should also ask a Lebanese Christian 'why' they became targets of religiously motivated violence; it is cuz the Maronites of Lebanon collaborated with Israel against Palestinian & wider Muslim interests.. Hence, when things got nasty in Lebanon's civil war, retribution was on hand.. Your attempt to disassociate & omit all politics from such conflicts you wish to drag in to this debate & criticize only Islam for it is utter nonsense..
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 Finally, there's too many examples of Islamic societies which were relatively progressive but which were then overrun by reactionary Muslims. These moderate Muslims were not able to "laugh" at the reactionary Muslims as you so cheerfully put it. They ended up losing the struggle for their country. We saw it happen in Iran, in Lebanon, and we're seeing it happen in Egypt now. It's part of the reason why so many Muslim families moved to countries like Canada, to escape.
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: Thats a highly naive outlook on politics in Islamic countries.. For decades now, the West has supported brutal dictators in most Islamic countries to secure oil & protect the apartheid state of Israel. The Islamic revolution in Iran was a direct result of the repression of previous so-called 'secular' regime. Whats happening in Egypt? Nothing wrong with Muslim Brotherhood winning the elections; they are free & fair elections..
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 "Whats happening in Egypt? Nothing wrong with Muslim Brotherhood winning the elections; they are free & fair elections.." Tell that to the Copts. Persecution of Christians in Egypt is flaring up again, which shows democracy by and of itself is not enough; you need a constitution to guarantee equal rights of minorities, in short; a secular constitution.
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: And Copts didn't have problems when the West's secular puppet Hosni Mubarak was in power? Muslim Brotherhood hasn't even come to power yet, the elections are continuing as we speak in phases.. the country is ruled by the 'secular' military generals who are lackeys of the West & much adored by Israel as well.. So why all the brouhaha abt Muslims Brotherhood? They have no say in how Egypt is run as yet
faris710 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: There's 'Muslims' & then there are 'crazies'.. The Muslim Brotherhood of today is not the same as that of the 1950s. It is highly pragmatic with a group of skilled politicians & leaders that can really change life for Egyptians for the better as opposed to corrupt dictatorship of Hosni Mubarak.. The MB is not calling for Israel's destruction; they're not closing Egypt's ancient monuments.. Muslims are infact, now winning back their countries from West stooges!
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 "Muslims are infact, now winning back their countries from West stooges!" Muslims are "winnig back their lands" with the help of the West, if you remember how both Saddam Hussein and Ghadafi were finally overthrown. It's true the West supported these dictators, but it would be less than honest of you to ignore the role the West played in taking some of them down as well.
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: Please spare us ur self-congratulating nonsensical attitude.. Saddam Hussein was only removed for his country's oil.. Same with Gaddafi.. hasn't been long since Gaddafi's death, already massive delegations from foreign oil firms are arriving in Tripoli to seek repayment of the favor that NATO bombing of Gaddafi accrued somehow.. Hence, ur argument that somehow those dictators were removed for the love of Muslim human rights is farcical.
faris710 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: Lets also not forget what happend in Bahrain, when with the tacit approval of the West, particularly the U.S, the Saudis sent in their army to shoot at unarmed protesters. What of Yemen? No oil there. Why not bomb Saleh out of power? He is just been given green-light to go to U.S for medical treatment.. How abt Syria? How abt Egypt where Western firms continued to supply Hosni Mubarak's forces with tear-gas, etc to quell protests; same was done in Libya...
faris710 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah Your a waste of time, seriously. And faris710 very good points, you see how flawed his arguments are, so typical of the haters of Islam. I was going to respond to his points but I saw your argument and I thought I won't waste precious time on his fallacies.
adz2k112 1 month ago
@adz2k112 If this is your way of saying that Faris710 is better at arguing his point of view than you are, then I can only agree with you. If I were you, I'd let him do the talking, too. By the way, Faris710 is a Muslim AND he accepts evolution via natural selection as FACT! He knows humans and modern apes share a common ancestor and this does not bother him. It is much easier to take him seriously when he speaks about science than it is to take a creationist like you seriously.
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@adz2k112 I haven't asked him, but I'd bet Faris710 is reasonable enough to openly admit that Islam has borrowed many of the characters and adapted many of the stories and shrines of other religions such as Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, etc.It was hard to argue with you, since you are so willing to stubbornly deny the obvious; e.g. Moses is not an Islamic character to begin with, he was a Judaic character- if he appears in the Koran, it's because the Koran borrowed from other religions.
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: Again, Islam doesn't claim to be a religion from Mars.. it says explicitly in the Qur'an that there is only one 'true' religion which is Islam.. it was sent to Jews via Moses, to Christians via Jesus.. But that they distorted the true message by making man-made changes.. When Qur'an talks abt Jesus & Moses, its not 'borrowing' them from other religions.. it is reclaiming them as they are equally revered by Muslims as Prophets as Muhammad is revered
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 So the dogmas of religions much older than Islam, where they differ from this newer religion, have been polluted and distorted? Of course, only a Muslim would say this. It doesn't speak very highly of your degree of objective research. But fine, how about the belief in Jinn? Their existence is confirmed in Islam, but we know the legends go back to Ancient Sumeria. Is this not a case of borrowing? How about the black stone in the Kaaba, venerated by Arab pagans before Islam?
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: I didn't say that everything in the Bible or Torah is false.. I said they have been 'distorted'.. meaning humans have made their own additions to the text that should've been left untouched.. You don't have to be a rocket-scientist to figure out how many versions of the Bible there are..
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 How many versions of the Koran are there? There was no collection of revelations when Muhammad died. His followers had to go collect the different revelations. Canonizing the Medinan Codex meant that other codices were ordered to be destroyed. Even after this, variants of the consonantal text survived in the 4th Islamic century. Besides, the consonantal text was unpointed, the dots that distinguish certain letters were missing. There were no signs for short vowels initially.
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah This led to different centres with their own take on how the texts should be vowelized and pointed. Some Muslims preferred codices from Ibn Masud, Ubayy ibn Kad, or Abu Musa, over the Uthmanic codice.
Under Ibn Mujahid's influence; 7 versions were accepted. But other scholars accepted 10 readings, or 14 readings. Even Mujahid allows 14 possibilities since each of his 7 can be traced through 2 different transmitters.
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: Copy-pasting anti-Islam disinformation from Islamophobic websites verbatim is doing little to demonstrate ur intellectual skills & more to show ur lack of any sincere effort to learn facts. There's NO seven 'versions' of Qur'an. Since Qur'an was recited by Prophet upon receiving revelation to his Companions owing to oral culture of Arabia; 7 accents of Arab tribes existed at the time & 'recitation' in those 7 accents was accepted that didn't change the meaning
faris710 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: Your comment is evidence of ur lack of objective research.. If u look at 6-7th century Arabia, a very strong oral culture prevailed.. Hence, when the Prophet received revelations from God through Gabriel, he recited them to this Companions right away & they would learn it by heart to be passed to others.. WHY the Qur'anic verses were compiled into book form later was cuz of those who had learnt 'all' the verses by heart were being lost in the field of battle
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 This is something which the Koran/Qur'an has in common with other Holy Writ. They all indicate the same phenomenon: These are not God's Words, infallibly reported. These are man-made writings, prone to inconsistencies, discrepancies, variety of possible readings and interpretations, incorporating deliberate distortions and hoaxes, modifications, mistranslations, and nothing in the way of teachings which were impossible to get to by simply using the available doctrines of the time.
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: As Islamic world began to expand beyond native Arabic speakers to a lot of nations with different languages, directional marks were added so that the Qur'an can be read in the 7 accents that the Prophet (PBUH) authorized since meaning remained the same.
If we gather all Qur'an in the world & burn em, we need only two MUSLIMS who have memorized the Qur'an to gather it again with the same way the Prophet (PBUH) recited it to the first Muslims.
faris710 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah How many times do I have to disprove your nonsense? You say Moses is a "judaic character", where is the word "judaism" in the torah, was it the religion of the jews at the time, before they were distorted by the 70 babylonian rabbi's? I did'nt think so. Therefore, Prophet Moses, is a muslim because he taught belief in one God (monotheism), and that's what Islam taught, Islam means submission to one God, so in conclusion Prophet moses is a follower of Islam.
adz2k112 1 month ago
@adz2k112 This is what grown-ups call "historical revisionism". You have to be a Muslim to believe that Moses was a (misunderstood) Muslim, ahead of his time. Most of the world understand Moses was a figure of Jewish religious importance who was then appropriated by Islam and artificially labelled by Muslims as a Muslim, in order to give this new religion of Islam some credentials as being an ancient religion, as beliefs used to be valued (before the advent of science) for their longevity.
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: You fail to respond the argument raised by user 'adz2k112' regarding the 70 Babylonian rabbis or the use of the word 'judaism' in the Torah.. Instead you continue repeating your rhetorical allegations on Islam pointlessly.
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 It would be pointless to argue with someone who claims the writers of and believers in the Torah were unaware that they were Jewish and that Moses was actually a pre-islamic Muslim. A new religion (e.g. Mormonism) claims Jesus came to America after his resurrection. So what? it's crude revisionism. A new monotheism called Gaïsm could come tomorrow claiming Islam got it wrong too, and that Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad were all actually Gays. It's crude and unconvincing revisionism.
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: Its not pointless.. There is enough evidence in the Torah & Bible that prophesizes Prophet Muhammad's coming.. Comparing Islam to Mormonism is akin to calling an apple an orange. There's a reason why Judaism, Christianity & Islam are all called Abrahamic religions. Both his sons, Isaac & Ishmael were blessed with nations of their own, Jews (Isaac) & Arabs (Ishmael). I suggest u refrain from disrespectful language or ur comments will be moderated next time.
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 Besides the question of your hypothetical apostasy, the other question I asked you which you seem to ignore is how you would feel if the Canadian government decided to tax Muslims like you for being of "the wrong" religion. How would you feel about an extra tax for black people for being of "the wrong" colour? (We don't even need to get into the non-romanticised, non-apologist, historically documented severity of this system of dhimmi taxes and their accompanying inequalities).
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: Again, you continue to rant ignorantly by assuming that 'jizya' is some 'extra' tax that non-Muslims have to pay when in fact, it has already been explained to you that 'jizya for non-Muslims replaces 'zakat' that Muslims pay which is higher than 'jizya'.. I'd be damn glad if I had to be pay a tax to Canadian govt that wud replace income tax & was lower than what 'natural Canadians' pay & I was exempt from military service, etc.. I'd be living pretty well.
faris710 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: There are millions of Muslims who believe in evolution and are devoutly Muslim at the same time. As for my personal answer, you can see it below
faris710 1 month ago
Among his early victims of assassination we find two poets, one male, one female. Both were guilty of the horrible crime of mocking Muhammad. He had them killed for that, killed in their beds. The poetess was killed surrounded by her children, while suckling a baby to her chest. This is your "perfect man". Muslims today don't understand Free Speech and want to see South Park and Salman Rushdie, and cartoonists burn. Your own Pederast Prophet started this tradition of censorship by sword.
SuperBabyBuddah 2 months ago
@SuperBabyBuddah then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge"
adz2k112 2 months ago
@adz2k112 The anecdote of Muhammad mercilessly executing 800 of his prisoners and sold their women and children after they had surrendered to him comes from Muslim sources. The Hadith that Muhammad bedded a 9 year old comes from Muslim sources. The stories that Muhammad went to Medina and became the boss of a gang that raided caravans to steal their possession, comes from Muslim sources. Only the conclusion that Muhammad was a criminal, a robber, a mass murderer, and a pederast, is mine.
SuperBabyBuddah 2 months ago
@SuperBabyBuddah Wait a minute. First of all when we were discussing the Quran manuscripts, I gave you hadith sources, and you said that because its from Hadith, its not reliable. Now, you talk about the execution of 800 soldiers of Banu Qurayzah, who I proved were executed because of them breaking the treaty n attacking the muslims, the 9 year old stuff which I debunked, but you happen to believe them when they're from hadith? Hypocrisy from your end!
adz2k112 2 months ago
@adz2k112 Whether the Hadith are reliable or works of fiction and hoaxes made to sanctify private interests does not matter to me personally as I am not a Muslim. I find it interesting, but that's neither here nor there. You fail to grasp that what I was questioning was the Muslim idea of upholding Muhammad as the perfect paradigm of virtue. Within that discussion it only matters what the sources you accept unquestioningly as reliable say about the man you uncritically take as a role model.
SuperBabyBuddah 2 months ago
@SuperBabyBuddah The Caravan raid lie exposed: The Muslims attacked the pagan caravan during the WAR, it was a strategic attack to cut off their supplies. Then all the bounties like weapons, food, money were taken, what you expect them to do? leave it in the desert to rot?. Other than war, it is stealing as it is stated "The Prophet has prohibited the Believers from loot and plunder" (Bukhari, AbuDawood). "The loot is no more lawful than the carrion" (Abu Dawood)
adz2k112 2 months ago
@adz2k112 So the raids on the caravan was an aggressive act of war, cutting off their supplies? Isn't that worse than robbery? You're not looting individual merchants, your aim is to cut off a whole population, make them all pay the price for harbouring your enemies. When modern-day Israel does exactly that to Palestinians, you do not consider it OK, but since Muhammad MUST be the Perfect Man, when he does it, it's OK. Hmm.
SuperBabyBuddah 2 months ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: The source of your disinformation on Islam & its Prophet demonstrate beyond doubt that you, like many other Islamophobes, google Islamophobic websites, copy-paste or regurgitate the same old bile over & over again.. Such as this comment of yours.. Please give us a source as to which poets you're referring to, when were they killed, who killed them, etc. As for South Park millions of Muslims watch it n love it.. Salman Rushdie's case was overblown by zealots.
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 The threat to murder a novelist is "overblown"? Understatement. You say that "many Muslims love SP", but, quite obviously, there are Muslims who threatened the makers of SP for blasphemy. And these "overblown" cases seem to happen quite consistently. The poet and poetess whose murders were ordered by your Prophet (for the crime of "offending" him) were named al-Nader and Asma bint Marwan. These stories are told by Muslim sources, it's not some sort of Western propaganda.
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: Again, threats were made by a small minority of fanatics to SP producers; you somehow take those few folks to be a representation of Muslims overall than the majority of Muslims who expressed no such intention.. Expressing displeasure at something distasteful such as the depiction of Islam's Prophet in SP episode is anyone's fundamental right. You fail to discern between expression of displeasure & the actual threats of violence. Your word play has little value
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 Are you really telling me that I was claiming that the better part of 1,2 billion Muslims threatened to kill the creators of SP? Of course it was just a "small minority". But when compared to a total of 1,2 billion Muslims, any group of violent thugs can be characterised as a relatively "small minority". You might as well say that the thugs who bombed Christian churches in Sudan at Christmas were "just a small minority".
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: You are most welcome to 'crunch' specific numbers if u like.. The fact of the matter remains the same in principle.. A tiny fraction of a community cannot be taken as 'representative' of that community. Are we to take all the acts of thuggery, violence, plunder committed by thousands of Christians, Jews, Hindus, secularists in the past & some that continue to this day as representative of those groups? Imperialism, colonialism, Holocaust, Crusades, list goes on
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 I understand your point, and it's something I have given thought about. But I ask you, there is obviously a sort of civil war within Islam. Not just between Sunni and Shia, but between progressive elements and reactionary elements. If you side with the "moderate", or progressive side, how do you confront the reactionary elements WITHOUT addressing their interpretation of Islam? I suggest that confronting the reactionary's ideology is a better alternative to a physical war.
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@faris710 The stories of al-Nader and Asma bint Marwan come from 100% Muslim sources. You want to discredit these Muslim stories because I am using them to critique Islam, and to add insult to injury; I am an infidel (I have no obligation to ignore Muhammad's flaws) and I am a Westerner. If I were discrediting your arguments on the basis of your ethnicity or creed, I'd be accused of racism and bigotry. Conclusion: Saying that Muslim traditions are anti-Islamic propaganda won't get you very far.
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: Perhaps I wasn't clear.. WHAT are your sources on the stories of al-Nader & Asma bint Marwan.. WHERE are these 100% Muslim sources that you speak of.. post a link here or refer a book so that your claim can be verified.. Your self-righteous rhetorical polemic holds no value for me to respond to since its nothing but trolling on your part. There is nothing in my previous comments to suggest I am discrediting ur comments just cuz I suspect you to be a westerner.
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 Is that it? You're going to insist that al-Nader and Asma bint Marwan are Western fabrications? I've read about them through Sprenger, one of the people applying the historical critical method to Islam. Asma's story features in the writings of Ibn Ishaq and Ibn Sa'd al-Baghdadi. Al-Naser's story was told by Ibn Hisham & Ibn Ishaq, and Sirat Rasul Allah. I'm sorry I cannot provide a link, as I am using an old-fashioned book. I could recommend you a book if you wish!
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddahz; Sorry what a lame excuse of a comment.. Your earlier claim was u got ur information from 100% Muslim sources & now you say its Sprenger.. in any case, provide the book's ISBN, year of publishing, publisher's name, author's name & book title here. Lets find out credentials of Mr Sprenger, an unknown.. Lets see you quoting out of Ibn Ishaq or any of the other Muslim sourced you point to..
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 Would it really matter if I provided you with the ISBN? You're just itching to write off the messenger so you won't have to deal with the message.
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
@SuperBabyBuddah: Again cheap assertions.. Still waiting for ISBN, year of publishing, publisher's name, book title, etc
faris710 1 month ago
@faris710 He will never be able to provide it, he makes radical assumptions, superstitions about certain things, he does'nt have a clue about anything. He will keep jumping from topic to topic, he's a failure.
adz2k112 1 month ago
@faris710 Sprenger is but one of the scholars I mentioned whose work features in historical critical studies of the Koran. They relied on 100% Muslim sources, but not uncritically. Sprenger is not only respected by Western scholars but his scholarly services are also recognised by Muslim men of learning, which apparently does not include you.Hate to say it, but "GOOGLE IT"! Google "Dr Aloys Sprenger (1813-1839) Muhammad Ikram Chaghatai" to see a synopsis of his contributions by Mr Chaghatai.
SuperBabyBuddah 1 month ago
Muhammad's message changed drastically from his Mecca period to his Medina period, where he turned to crime. He robbed, killed, massacred, beheaded his prisoners in public, five or six at a time, beginning in the morning and ending in the evening, 800 beheaded prisoners who had surrendered and begged for mercy and forgiveness. After the executions he went home to rape one of the orphaned widows, the other women and children were sold into slavery. This is your "perfect man".
SuperBabyBuddah 2 months ago
@SuperBabyBuddah But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity,
adz2k112 2 months ago
@adz2k112 in other words: you get a time-out to flee (abandoning the homes of your families/your ancestors) or you can stay and convert to Islam..or stay and be killed. That is somehow NOT compulsion in religion to you? That is somehow NOT advocating violence against people for the simple crime of not believing what you believe? To me, it reeks of divinely ordered and ordained fascism.
SuperBabyBuddah 2 months ago
Reading many of the comments made here by user 'SuperBabyBuddah' and 'adz2k112', the only conclusion that can be drawn is, you are both ill-informed regarding the positions you are taking vis-a-vis some of the themes and topics you seem to be attempting to debate..
faris710 2 months ago
@faris710 You're probably right. I'm a fallible person. I don't believe infallible books or infallible people exist. But whatever mistakes or gross over-simplifications I may be guilty of, please tell me that you agree adzk2k112 is wrong about evolution. Please tell me you know evolution is a fact.
SuperBabyBuddah 2 months ago
@SuperBabyBuddah Refuted your arguement after I put the verses into context, you cherry picked the verse you see
adz2k112 2 months ago
One of the biggest scientific discoveries has been evolution via natural selection. This has had a dramatic impact on our knowledge of the world, much bigger than any religion. It changed how we understand nature, it changed how we think about animals and plants, it changed our our medicine, etc. Maybe you can help me by showing me which Surah explains that for billions of years life on earth evolved from one common ancestor into all species of plants, bacteria, and animals.
SuperBabyBuddah 2 months ago
@SuperBabyBuddah Right, so now your bring forth a thesis (evolution) from the 19th century, and you have a problem with the Quran coming from years ago, yet you believe in this primitive scientific belief that is 160 years old? Your a free thinker right? Evolution has the fundamental belief that; mutations occur causing changes in an organism. Funny enough, mutations cause an organisms cells to become cancerous, your a free thinker right?
adz2k112 2 months ago
@adz2k112 The problem with Divine Revelation is not its antiquity, but its method of gaining knowledge. We're supposed to believe a story about a guy who may have heard voices in his head. The scientific method has done more work in 160 years, ran more tests and experiments than any religion has in a thousand.
I understand from your comment that you believe evolution is false?
And you want to champion the Quran on the basis of scientific validity?
SuperBabyBuddah 2 months ago
@SuperBabyBuddah Have you ever read about the Islamic Golden age, as how it advanced in science, mathematics etc. It gave people the method of gaining knowledge, even the prophet said "seek knowledge as far as China". The Quran has scientific validity, you keep challengeing it with falsehood, assumptions for some reason.
adz2k112 2 months ago
@adz2k112 The Islamic Golden Age was wonderful for its time, until Muslim authorities became reactionary (similar to the Church during the Inquisition), and decided to suppress their scientists. Today the Islamic world contributes VERY LITTLE in the area of scientific publications. Compare it to the non-Islamic Asian world, China included. Islamic science is in arrested development. If the Quran was so scientific, how come Muslims are lagging behind? You do not even understand evolution!!!!
SuperBabyBuddah 2 months ago
@SuperBabyBuddah So you acknowledge the Islamic Golden age, well done. Now you've made a baseless claim that muslim authorities became reactionary? where is your proof? Muslim countries invest and speak very highly of education, look at the UAE. In fact I know someone who came from palestine, 5 years ago, and he's a doctor, born and bred in Gaza, so don't give me shit
adz2k112 2 months ago
@adz2k112 You know a doctor? Wow. I guess my point about the comparatively low amount of scientific publications coming out of Islamic countries has been debunked and burned to the ground, no? Or, better yet, decapitated and thrown into a ditch along with the rest of my arguments after they had surrendered to your superiour intellect. (In case you notice an itch between the ears...yes, that was an allusion to Muhammad's wicked treatment of his prisoners).
SuperBabyBuddah 2 months ago
@SuperBabyBuddah Debunked and burned? Where is your evidence that they have been debunked? Cite your sources, your making assumptions. The only example of "prisoners" you can give is the Banu Qurayzah tribe, who for the 1000th time besieged the muslims whilst they were fighting the pagans, they broke the treaty and suffered the consquences. And like I said before, in Islam a slave cannot be mistreated or oppressed
adz2k112 2 months ago
@adz2k112 Again, for the 1001th time: They had surrendered and pleaded for mercy. Cruelly killing prisoners after they had surrendered and were disarmed is BARBARIC. If Allah is supposed to be merciful, he was not on that day. I find it disturbing how you insist on excusing this barbaric treatment of prisoners of war. Imagine if Israel beheaded their Palestinian POWs. You would not hesitate one second to denounce all Jews as wicked for the barbaric act. But when it comes to Muhammad...
SuperBabyBuddah 2 months ago
@adz2k112 They Qurayzah had surrendered and pleaded for mercy. Cruelly killing prisoners after they surrender and were disarmed is BARBARIC. I find it disturbing how you insist on excusing this barbaric treatment of prisoners of war. Imagine if Israel beheaded their Palestinian POW. You would not hesitate one second to denounce all Jews as evil. "in Islam a slave cannot be oppressed"? Please explain how you can have enslavement without oppression, genius?
SuperBabyBuddah 2 months ago
@adz2k112 Islam tells you, the same way Christianity used to do (back when people still paid attention), that this Book contains God's Word. Questioning it is, as you have said yourself "attacking" your religion. Science and rational thinking does the opposite: the truth can always be questioned. It can always be improved, better informed, sometimes even radically undermined.
This is why you cannot be a free-thinker THANKS to Islam. You have to try to be one despite it. (You fail, by the way)
SuperBabyBuddah 2 months ago
Tell me more! I want to know what passes as an education in science in your house! Do you deny that humans and chimpanzees share a common ancestor? Do you believe all species were created simultaneously and have not changed? How old is Earth, according to Islamic revelation?
SuperBabyBuddah 2 months ago
@SuperBabyBuddah Your saying to me that you want to know what passes as an education in science in my house, when you say that chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestor? If you believe we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys in the world? why did'nt they evolve? why were they left behind? Who is this ancestor of the chimpanzee? LOL! Like I said evolution's fundamental belief is that monkeys mutated to humans, when mutations cause cells that are cancerous! FLAW
adz2k112 2 months ago
@adz2k112 Without evolution, we cannot explain DNA , or the fossil record, or why vaccines work. Do you accept that humans are an animal species? I bet you don’t. To deny evolution, you must deny the pattern we discovered in the DNA of every single organism studied so far. You must deny your own vestigial tail. Does the Quran explain the vestigial tail? You try to abuse science to make Islam look modern, but you expose how ignorant you are of its core principles.
SuperBabyBuddah 2 months ago
@SuperBabyBuddah Evolutions core principals are mutations, mutations cause cells that are cancerous, so thats flawed. The Quran is not a science book, it may explain scientific facts, but it certainly disproves the evolution scam. All the fossils prove creation, but darwinism maintains the opposite, it claims proteins came into being by chance, when there is a 1 in 10 to the power of 950 chance of this happening, which is basically impossible lol
adz2k112 2 months ago
@adz2k112 Evolutions runs on a little motor called "natural selection". Mutations are quite rare and more often than not, can be bad for you. Whoever told you evolution is a theory of mutating our way from one celled organisms to I-Pod wielding homo sapiens was giving you the cheap, 1 minute Creationist version of evolution (intended to distort the theory to make it simple for simpletons to reject out of hand).
SuperBabyBuddah 2 months ago
@adz2k112 "The Quran is not a science book"
That is the smartest, most educated thing, you've said ALL WEEK. Good for you! Who says you can't teach an apologist muslim dog any new tricks?
SuperBabyBuddah 2 months ago
@SuperBabyBuddah When I said the Quran is not a science book. What I meant was that it doesnt speak about science entirely, It gives accurate scientific examples to show God's truth. You have'nt spoken a word of smartness, all you have given in fallacies, and I've proved them
adz2k112 2 months ago
@adz2k112 When you said the Quran is not a book of science, you came as close as your religion permits you to say that the Quran is not a good source for science. If you're serious about science you'll see that the idea of mountain=pegs has no following in the geologist community. You may find one charitable quote here, or another misappropriation of an article there, but you would not need to resort to these if the idea was accepted. You'd find the mountain peg idea published in schoolbooks.
SuperBabyBuddah 2 months ago
@adz2k112 I know I won't change your religiously ordained misconceptions about mountains, so I invite your religiously ordained misconceptions on evolution. You already admitted that you do not believe humans and modern apes share a common ancestor. Now I want you to answer the other questions you've ignored:
1-What does your vestigial tail say about you? 2-Are humans animals? Show me how thorough your commitment is to old superstitions and religion and not to science.
SuperBabyBuddah 2 months ago
@adz2k112 Do you deny the DNA sequencing that shows how closely related humans are to chimpanzees? Do you deny that DNA shows that we're more closely related to apes than we are to any other animal? Do you believe that DNA is simply Western propaganda? Do you believe DNA is a Zionist lie intended to make Muslim apologists look reactionary and uneducated?
SuperBabyBuddah 2 months ago
@adz2k112 Do you believe all species of animals were created simultaneously and have remained unchanged since? Did you know that whales and hippopotamus share a more recent common ancestor amongst themselves than to any other animal? You see, evolution is a fascinating science. It explains so many things. I know I mock you, but really I feel sorry for people like you, the way you misuse science to try to support religious dogma. You're missing out on the noblest and humblest of human endeavours.
SuperBabyBuddah 2 months ago
@SuperBabyBuddah Islam never said what christianity said. Bible says jesus said: "And as for these enemies of mine who didn't want me to be their king, bring them in and execute them right here in front of me" (Luke 19:27). Quran: "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error" (2:256). The distinction is that Islam allowed free thinking for whoever wanted to enter it, christianity never did. So you fail, go home and take you evolution book with you
adz2k112 2 months ago
@adz2k112 Now, it's one thing to be an ignoramus. There's no shame in that. We cannot blame the human authors of the Quran for knowing nothing about the helio-centered solar system, or the origin of mountains, or the shaping of continents, or the fact of evolution, or the existence of germs, or a thlusand other things they were ignorant of. They were men of their time. They have an excuse. YOU, however, live in the 21st century. YOU have no excuse for the ignorance you show me in every comment.
SuperBabyBuddah 2 months ago
@adz2k112 You are the best reason I know to doubt evolution, that's for sure. The Quran also says; "Kill the non-believers wherever you may find them". To disbelieve is to be killed, what can be more compulsory than that? Apostasy in Islam is technically punishable by death. No compulsion in religion, you say? Let's just say Muhammad the Pederast Prophet changed his mind when he ruled Medina.
SuperBabyBuddah 2 months ago
@SuperBabyBuddah FALSE. You took the verse out of context, that was when the Muslims where fighting the pagans of Mecca.
adz2k112 2 months ago
@SuperBabyBuddah That's another lie, christianity forbade any science and rationale, Islam never did, look at great muslim scholars like Ibn Rushd who influenced the renaissance when the christian west was drowning in the dark ages, or Ibn sina etc. I studied the Quran, CAREFULLY, and discovered that it was the truth. It gave me the inspiration to go seek knowledge. I'm educated here in the west, I was raised here, and I'm studying a degree in law, so I'm not stupid
adz2k112 2 months ago
@adz2k112 "That's another lie, christianity forbade any science and rationale, Islam never did, " Well, here's a wonderful opportunity to show us what you know about the history of Islam. We can agree that the Islamic world has lost the scientific race a looong time ago. The Islamic Golden Age is called that because it is history. An age that has passed. Now YOU explain why that happened. Try not to blame Israel or the USA, as they did not exist at the time.
SuperBabyBuddah 2 months ago
@SuperBabyBuddah The reason why it golden age came to an end was due to internal conflict, infiltrations by secret orders, segregating, dividing the muslim communities which lead all the way to the collapse of the Muslim empire in 1918. Algebra, for example, was invented by the muslim scholar of Al-Khwarizmi in 820. Algebra is still studied in schools, universities. The muslims laid the foundations of many discoveries which were later developed further. So don't discredit!
adz2k112 2 months ago
@adz2k112 ...and you forgot to mention, reactionary Muslims who felt further scientific research was not as important as learning the Quran and Hadith. Anyway, glad to help.
SuperBabyBuddah 2 months ago