JFK American Airlines 767 Emergency ATC recording

[jkiang]

Best call sign ever. American too heavy LOL!

[StreifProductions]

Max crosswind component in the 767? what, 40 knots, according to Boeing? So that can't be it. Declaration of minimum fuel? I never heard it in this clip.

Not enough fuel for basic supply PLUS "wind and weather, traffic delays, an instrument approach + plus missed approach, and any other unforeseen circumstances"? I guess the dispatcher will have to answer that one...........

Impatient PIC? Maybe. 

[my235]

If in fact the emergency was due to low fuel: pilot error. Controller was irritated because of the pilots unprofessional attitude.

[pixzalated]

@my235 not so. what if he'd been at the hold point for a long time...was told he would get 31R by some other controller, the wind shifted while he was inbound and bingo.... low fuel is not always pilot error at all

[tali1998w]

he could hav landed runway 15R

[embpic]

......... he did not have the authority to just tell ATC to get everyone out of his was and just whip around for a landing on 31. Again we don't know his fuel state so who knows. I am sure we will find out someday in some FAA report on the incident.

[lstorm2003]

@embpic Actually he did have that authority. According to the Federal Aviation Regulations governing emergencies: The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority to the operation of that aircraft. In an in-flight emergency the PIC may deviate from any rule to the extent required to meet that emergency. Furthermore the PIC may deviate from any ATC instruction or clearance as needed. However, the PIC may have to submit a written report afterwards.

[embpic]

@lstorm2003 I think you are missing my point. As you pointed out the PIC may 'deviate from any rule TO THE EXTENT REQUIRED TO MEET THAT EMERGENCY'. If he had a reason that he needed to get down immediately (low fuel, fire, flight control problem) etc then again I see no issue here. If it was just because he wanted a different runway because of the winds then I think he deviated beyond the extent to meet the emergency. We really need to know what the nature of the emergency was.

[pixzalated]

@embpic Yes he did by virtue of declaring an emergency. If his engine was on fire or had flamed out due to low fuel no one would be questioning the pilot, they'd be after the ATC for not following SOP for emergency declarations and clearing the road. Once the emergency is declared ATCs job is to allow the pilot to get the aircraft to the ground in the most expeditious manner, meaning move everyone out of the way no matter what.

[embpic]

@pixzalated What part of 'We need to find out the nature of the emergency' didn't you understand. If I declare an emergency and barrel my way around JFK causing several other airplanes to scramble out of my way, there better be a damn good reason for it. Strong crosswinds are NOT anywhere near a good enough reason to do that. If it was due to low fuel then SOP dictates that he needed to declare a fuel emergency to ATC. He didn't so I am thinking it wasn't.

[embpic]

FAR 91.3 states :"In an emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule... to the extent required to meet the emergency." If he had a fuel emergency then I see no problem, although I would have expected that he would have declared minimum fuel before his fuel state was that bad. If he had plenty of fuel but declared an emergency because he could not get the runway he wanted that is fine also. However if fuel was not an issue then ...........

[lstorm2003]

@embpic By the way I should also point out that this flight was technically not governed by the rules of FAR Part 91, it was Part 119 & 125.

[seatgurus]

Controller is a DICK

[diegodaudt]

What does he mean when he says "I reset the localizer"?

[beatle1967]

@diegodaudt He flipped a switch to "reboot" it.

[beatle1967]

...the localizer is a radio signal sent from the departure end of the runway. It is centered on the final approach course and spreads out 10 degrees left and right of this course. The localizer signal provides lateral guidance to the inbound aircraft. The glideslope signal provides vertical guidance.

[diegodaudt]

@beatle1967 I know what the localizer is, lol. I was just wondering what "reseting" it meant. I'm playing too much FSX... lol

[zansocap]

You are all morons. This is why the general public are not allowed to fly airplanes. The crew declared an emergency. Air traffic control are NOT ACTUALY IN CONTROL!!!!! Their job is to HELP! If I declare an emergency, I do not have to CARE about HIS TRAFFIC! You nit-wits, who do not fly for a living should just watch the videos, and SHUT YOUR PIE HOLES!!!!!

[DiamondPilotDan]

The weird thing is... He was on a VISUAL. If you didn't have the localizer, he should have been able to land 22L as planned right? I could understand the emergency if he was in IMC..

[beatle1967]

@DiamondPilotDan He declared an emergency because the crosswind was too strong to land on 22L.

[embpic]

The FARs state that you can do what you need to only to the extent to meet the emergency. This means he should have just gone around and been given vectors to rwy 31 instead of just circling around on his own. If he was that low on gas that he had to land NOW!, then he was way too late in reporting his fuel condition.

[yauden]

@embpic I think you're missing the point. There are many things we dont' know. Did a delay extend into his reserves etc... Also, the point here is, late or not, he could NOT do another approach, the situation called for an emergency, and that emergency gives PIC the right to do what is needed to put the plane down on the ground safely. If the FAA want to fine or talk to pilots later, that's a WHOLE other story. We didn't hear to entire clip, he might had advised prev. on fuel

[nemo227]

@yauden Good explainations, Mike. It's my understanding that pilots are very reluctant to declare emergencies. When they declare an emergency they're not kidding around; it's serious business.

[embpic]

The PIC has the right to declare an emergency. I think however in this case he may have gone too far. If he does not want to land on the crosswind runway fine. If he needs to declare an emergency to do that fine. However, from the info out there he had no right to just enter a left downwind and land on his own unless he had an extreme emergency (on fire, out of fuel etc) He wasn't on fire and he did not declare a fuel emergency. He just wanted rwy31.

[yauden]

@embpic I think what everyone is saying is this. (and I'm also a pilot) Air traffic Control is in "control" of the air traffic in his airspace... but once an aircraft declares an Emergency, the PIC (Pilot in Command) has ALL say in what he does with his aircraft, he can land on any runway, or ANYWHERE he needs to safely land his aircraft. The ATC's priority is now to clear the space for that aircraft. Pilot dictates what he needs ATC complies to ensure safe separation of AC.

[spithakos]

@pocomedy From the moment that he declares an emergency he would do what ever possible to deal with the emergency. After landing if they find out that the emergency was not based to a something important the FAA will ...... his ...... something that is obvious but from the point that he declares it he can do what ever he thinks is appropriate to land safely. That's my point we don't disagree with you I only state what is the procedure before FAA find's that it was not a justified emergency.

[spithakos]

The pilot is ALWAYS the boss, he is responsible to make a safe landing denying an unsafe ATC instruction if he knows that would put the aircraft into danger, further more he can violate EVERYTHING as far as he/she announces it to ATC when in a state of emergency in order to deal with the emergency and make a safe landing. It is clearly stated in the FAR/AIM

[pocomedy]

@spithakos well it wasnt an emergency, he wanted a specific runway and they threatened to declare if they did not get the runway they wanted. So the pilot was at blame here he did not follow correct procedure. He just wanted a specific runway

[ColtDeltaElite10mm]

Why does a fuel issue keep comming up with this? At no time does the pissed off pilot ever declare hes at a fuel critical position. He was jusr pissed off about the cross wind. I agree with the others that he shouldnt have accepted the rwy 22 landing clearance and just continued on the runway heading to be sequenced onto 35. He was a bitch.

[igneousy]

I think an empty fuel gauge would make any pilot imaptient to get on the ground. Pilots listen to ATC until the pilot decides enough is enough. If you don't understand that then you either aren't a pilot or you are a pilot and need to revisit 14CFR91.3...nuff said.

[pemgolf]

FAR 91.3

[dayradio65]

Not being a pilot, this seems suspect. Was there something in the recording prior to this clips start point that may have shed a little more light on the circumstances leading to the declaration of emergency? Right off the bat this guy just seems like he wanted out of the air due to impatience. Not that I would appreciate that if I was on this particular flight, but If I had to cycle back around because somebody just wanted to be next then I may be a touch upset. Any pro's have a thought?

[airbus320dfw]

what is PIC authority? SO what was the real reason why of the emergency was it due to the crosswinds were too heavy for a 767 300? what are the crosswinds supposed to be for a normal landing for a 767-300?

[AdamAviation]

@airbus320dfw I believe it is Pilot in Command authority.

[airbus320dfw]

@AdamAviation so what caused the 767 American to declare the emergency was it the crosswinds for a heavy?

[AdamAviation]

@airbus320dfw From listening to this I think they may have done it because the controller would not let them land on the runway they wanted, the winds were too high for the runway that the approach the controller cleared them on and he would not clear them for the other lower wind runway. Once an emergency is declared it is at the pilots discretion. Note: I may be wrong , if anyone can clarify it would be appreciated.

[airbus320dfw]

@AdamAviation I think that makes lots of sense but why wouldnt ATC clear them do you the wind speed required for a heavy 777 or 767 landing?

[airbus320dfw]

@AdamAviation missed "Know" in there sorry. do you know the wind speed?

[Nintenkid91]

@airbus320dfw Pilot In Command.

[sigair]

You always here this guy giving ppl problems

[trooperpilot]

All of these comments for the most part are dead wrong!!! YOU CANNOT GO MISSED IF YOU DO NOT HAVE THE FUEL!!! Notice the call sign "AA2 Heavy", he is coming in from overseas, the wind exceed the crosswind limitations for american airlines. The air traffic controller IS NOT IN CHARGE, the pilot in command will decide what actions are best and safe. These pilot's are hero's, they prevented an "avianca airlines" (fuel starvation crash). By the way the pilot's were not violated.THIS CREW SAVED LIVES

[HWVISP89]

@trooperpilot AA 2 operates LAX-JFK,Boeing 767-200

[burreaucracy]

@trooperpilot Fuel had nothing to do with it. The flight wasn't even international, heavy DOES NOT MEAN international. It means it's a widebody that creates a lot of wake turbulence. The flight was a 762 originating from Los Angeles. The pilot was cleared to land 22R, then was told he had a crosswind gusting 35kts, and then he said he couldn't land, the ATC acknowledged and told him to fly runway heading, then the pilot kind of freaked and declared.....

[pocomedy]

This controller seems rude and impatience!

[SlamDuncDrummer]

Can't go missed if you have almost no fuel. Know reason for emergency before commenting. Before you comment about managing fuel, know how AA dispenses fuel for routes and know rules regarding reserve requirements etc.  Fuel emergencies are pretty much a daily thing now due to cost savings.

[digitalpretzel]

i think i've heard this controller before.. isn't he infamous for being abrasive and rude?

[MendotaTech]

@digitalpretzel Wasn't this the guy that said that This is America and We Speak English?

[Dexi]

@MendotaTech -- No, a pilot said that to Boston John, a different controller.

[Spitfire5181]

Lets hope both the Pilots got violated for this if the captain was flying the FO should have done something, and vice versa. Should have waited to be sequenced I hope I never do this.

[chasman14]

this frustrates me, as a pilot you need to be able to deal with all sorts of situations. I agree with @HDaviator, he should have just gone missed

[Mxsmanic]

Sometimes air traffic controllers forget who's the boss.

[HDaviator]

@Mxsmanic

Nobody is boss. If a pilot does not follow directions he will get his license taken away, if a controller fucks up he will loose his job. The only "boss" is the FAA. He could have gone missed and given the controller time to sequence him into runway 31. Instead he was just like "move them the fuck away, screw your airspace." Fuck that, he should have checked the ATIS before accepting the approach into 22L.