I just watched this again now. Come on. You know what I meant. It is not displayed in this post. What you're showing is the bad experience you had with an Elder in a party of beginners in you own experience. That does not represent all experience in everyone's games. That's an extreme. I did not address extremes in my post. I can't do, because I've not seen that quality of GM - sorry. Man, you know me, I just don't play like that. It's all got to be good. Seriously
@23penguins32 Frankly there is not a single reference to an experience of mine. None of the things I'm mentioning are reference to something I've experienced. Also of all the things I talk about in this video, mainly the end part was directed at you for the meta gaming thing. Your video mainly triggered what had been brewing for a while. This fits to others on youtube too, you were perhaps just the easiest to pick up from it. That's why I never mentioned anybody by name there.
@hammeredshitsteak Oh, see, I thought you were referencing what you said in my one about the Elder in the party of '1st levels' sorts. The same thing you said in the PMs we were exchanging at this time.
What I'm saying is, that sort of scenario is not what I am covering in my post. That's not what it's about.
To me, that situation is in extreme - a GM problem.
Again, as you probably know.
The 'meta-gaming' point I think is important, as many do that wrongly. It's not good. You know ?
I find if I took an angry, highly funny approach to this topic it would be maybe half as good as this video. So I went a different route to hide the imbalance between our comedy skill.
An angry rant about compromise? Nice. Also, I don't think these discussions start black and white. I feel like some responses I've gotten have not addressed what I actually said; rather folks attack an extreme version of it. TBH, I am very discouraged about YT for this reason and have had no desire to make new vids for a while now. This vid make me at least want to keep watching, just as your vids have from the start.
@boltorange Thank you very much. I try to do my best. But it was you and towerguardDM that got me into making RPG videos in the beginning so don't loose the spark, it would make me one saaaaaad panda ;__;
But you are right, the conversations can get to a difficult ground sometimes when people react like "What you vote left wing?! Don't you know Stalin killed 11 million people!!" like that you know. And it can drain you easily.
Hey hammer, my friend ran a Dark Ages campaign "Constantinople by Night" and he ran an elder campaign where we were all 6th generation elders. As you can probably predict, the game was a disaster and it only lasted a few sessions before we made new 9th gen characters, and restarted the campaign as weaker kindred. I think in terms of balance, Dark Ages loses its edge when the players are really strong because the fear and horror of the setting is diminished.
@WorldofLos I agree that the basic vampire worlds horror and fear gets deminished if nothing can touch the characters. But frankly I think it's more of a GMing problem there. If someone runs a game for superpowerful characters, then they need to face superpowerful threats and challenges. I'm not concearned with playing with super strong characters but with superstrong AND not superstrong characters at the same time.
@hammeredshitsteak I think you're right on. Our Gm was very comfortable having the players as the "weakest guys on the totem pole" and when he ran a campaign that took him out of his comfort zone, I think he kinda gave up. When it comes to an elder PC playing with neonate PCs, I think that the game would be unbalanced. In terms of story, the elder would function like an NPC because the younger vampires would be the elders underlings. It would be almost two games at once and be too disconnected
Within the first 10 seconds, I knew I was going to like this video!
I'll defend the middle-ground with you! That's where I stand as well! These are "Role Playing Games"...part role playing and part game. Why do they have to be mutually exclusive?
Yes, being up-staged is frustrating, especially when we're not talking about a competition here but socially-driven, cooperative entertainment. It's the "Super He-Man Wolverine" effect or...as you called it..."The Elder *and Friends* Show!"
Even tough I am more of a rules light kinda guy I still think the "game" part is a big part of the hobby. As an NPC I can totally see putting an elder with the players, because you can control him and make him more of a supporting character. But if it's a player then he needs to be a big focal point in the story so the player will feel involved. He will need to shine too. And it would be such a bore to send him somewhere else on a solo session in order to do that.
@hammeredshitsteak I agree. I lean in the direction of "rules-lite" myself and I find it frustrating that people assume my liking less complex rules means I think rules have less value. No no no! I just want the rules to be easier to interpret, extrapolate and execute.
I often hear many people discuss "game balance" from very specific angles (combat, character-level, etc) rather than more generalized ones, which is what I think the conversation needs to speak to.
@Webhead123 Hmm very true. But I think they are just talking in preferense to their own experiences mostly. Of what people they know have been whineing about the most. But that would be interesting to hear.
Out of curiosity why did they want one player to have so powerful a character?
The closest I ever got to that was playing 2nd edition ad&d and one player was running his halfling fighter/thief of 9th/3rd so so level and I was playing a 1st level Paladin... got raised from the dead after the group ran against a hag!
lol enjoyed that one :) the werewolf version of the odd couple lol
balance is an strange one because it matters but it also doesn't matter .and once you get into the extremes that's when the problems start.and why i like WHFRP no matter how big or hard you think you are, you can be taken down by a goblin arrow dipped in poo lol.i think a bit of common sense is needed .and if your always bitching at each other about who`s class/career is unbalanced then you prob need a new game/gm/players lol
Put me in that game. It sounds fun. I don't care for the WOD stuff, but at least that sounds like an interesting roleplaying op to play as the subordinate to a very powerful player. I don't want to play care-bears the RPG where everything is brought down to rock paper scissors. I want to play a character. I want to have challenging role playing situations brought to the table as a player and as a GM. If everyone needs to be equal, that speaks more to the fact that the players need to feel equal.
Glade you got that off your chest, unhealthy to keep that bottled up :) ,I understand where you are coming from I never liked it when people compare there views to how every one should play. I always see it as different play styles.
@felipe1gojira For sure. I understand it being a pain if one just whines about one class being more powerful than the other, but people were really talking about this elder stuff so to me that was far enough were it rubbed me wrong. But yeah we are not here to be "right" per se, but to voice our own opinions and learn. And stuff :)
Hmm, all good points. Its true in real life we do actually compare ourselves to others, and we do indeed get jealous. Extremes of power balance can indeed be demoralizing I agree there. I think doing something like that truly works or fails based on whether or not the players truly would enjoy such a thing.
Discretion is the better part of valor, wise warrior - hastily retreat from the skewed engagement and live to slay another day.
I would still answer the questions asked with; Yes I would (and have) opted to play the lower powered character, even at those extremes, and I have had fun doing so.
I understand not everyone wants to or is willing to try that, but the option should be open - balence mechanic for the setting not the party, balance plot for the party at the table.
That was good. Nice one. I favourited it. I hope I really didn't annoy you that much ? :) I'm not trashing anyone else's game. Sorry you took it that way, man.
@23penguins32 Thanks, and no worries, it's all good. Just needed to get this stuff off my chest you know. Sorry if I made it seem too personal or anything, I made sure I did not single anyone out or anything.
Your videos are entertainig. I can understand your anger and I can agree with you. Also, I kept thinking "He needs epic music to go with his ranting."
hehe, angry rant, and you seemed to mock ander at the end I think.
But I do agree with you. The balance should be there, but not necessarily mechanics as I said in my video. in your case, perhaps the cubs of this pack were better suited towards dealing with the human world and technology then the red talon elder. but each character should have a chance to shine without one hogging the spot light.
@herkles1 Very true, and if you were to give all the characters a chanse to shine with a super character with them, you'd pretty much have to split them into doing whole different stuff all together. I often hear that the answer is to give others stuff to do that the others can't do so well. Well that's the whole duty thing again. And in the end how fun is it to play with everybody, except a solo turn for the giga character because he's in space fighting fucking Peruvian gods.
That is a genuine angry rant right there. Also that friend of yours that you mention near the beginning of your video seems to not know what he is talking about. I would be angry too if I had to read his nonsense.
Splendid video, and a shame I've only just seen it! Lucky we have our facebook group. Here's to the middle ground!
thegentinquestion 1 week ago
I just watched this again now. Come on. You know what I meant. It is not displayed in this post. What you're showing is the bad experience you had with an Elder in a party of beginners in you own experience. That does not represent all experience in everyone's games. That's an extreme. I did not address extremes in my post. I can't do, because I've not seen that quality of GM - sorry. Man, you know me, I just don't play like that. It's all got to be good. Seriously
23penguins32 2 weeks ago
@23penguins32 Frankly there is not a single reference to an experience of mine. None of the things I'm mentioning are reference to something I've experienced. Also of all the things I talk about in this video, mainly the end part was directed at you for the meta gaming thing. Your video mainly triggered what had been brewing for a while. This fits to others on youtube too, you were perhaps just the easiest to pick up from it. That's why I never mentioned anybody by name there.
hammeredshitsteak 2 weeks ago
@hammeredshitsteak Oh, see, I thought you were referencing what you said in my one about the Elder in the party of '1st levels' sorts. The same thing you said in the PMs we were exchanging at this time.
What I'm saying is, that sort of scenario is not what I am covering in my post. That's not what it's about.
To me, that situation is in extreme - a GM problem.
Again, as you probably know.
The 'meta-gaming' point I think is important, as many do that wrongly. It's not good. You know ?
23penguins32 2 weeks ago
I find if I took an angry, highly funny approach to this topic it would be maybe half as good as this video. So I went a different route to hide the imbalance between our comedy skill.
azirk83 4 weeks ago
I can only click the like button once :-(
BattleBunny1979 4 weeks ago
@BattleBunny1979 Haha thanks :D
hammeredshitsteak 4 weeks ago
Comment removed
BattleBunny1979 4 weeks ago
Well said
HeathbrookBadhwar 1 month ago
An angry rant about compromise? Nice. Also, I don't think these discussions start black and white. I feel like some responses I've gotten have not addressed what I actually said; rather folks attack an extreme version of it. TBH, I am very discouraged about YT for this reason and have had no desire to make new vids for a while now. This vid make me at least want to keep watching, just as your vids have from the start.
boltorange 1 month ago
@boltorange Thank you very much. I try to do my best. But it was you and towerguardDM that got me into making RPG videos in the beginning so don't loose the spark, it would make me one saaaaaad panda ;__;
But you are right, the conversations can get to a difficult ground sometimes when people react like "What you vote left wing?! Don't you know Stalin killed 11 million people!!" like that you know. And it can drain you easily.
hammeredshitsteak 1 month ago
@hammeredshitsteak Yeah, I just need a break. I'm going to read comics for the next month or so before picking back up with the RPGs.
boltorange 1 month ago
Hey hammer, my friend ran a Dark Ages campaign "Constantinople by Night" and he ran an elder campaign where we were all 6th generation elders. As you can probably predict, the game was a disaster and it only lasted a few sessions before we made new 9th gen characters, and restarted the campaign as weaker kindred. I think in terms of balance, Dark Ages loses its edge when the players are really strong because the fear and horror of the setting is diminished.
WorldofLos 1 month ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@WorldofLos I agree that the basic vampire worlds horror and fear gets deminished if nothing can touch the characters. But frankly I think it's more of a GMing problem there. If someone runs a game for superpowerful characters, then they need to face superpowerful threats and challenges. I'm not concearned with playing with super strong characters but with superstrong AND not superstrong characters at the same time.
hammeredshitsteak 1 month ago
@hammeredshitsteak I think you're right on. Our Gm was very comfortable having the players as the "weakest guys on the totem pole" and when he ran a campaign that took him out of his comfort zone, I think he kinda gave up. When it comes to an elder PC playing with neonate PCs, I think that the game would be unbalanced. In terms of story, the elder would function like an NPC because the younger vampires would be the elders underlings. It would be almost two games at once and be too disconnected
WorldofLos 1 month ago
Within the first 10 seconds, I knew I was going to like this video!
I'll defend the middle-ground with you! That's where I stand as well! These are "Role Playing Games"...part role playing and part game. Why do they have to be mutually exclusive?
Yes, being up-staged is frustrating, especially when we're not talking about a competition here but socially-driven, cooperative entertainment. It's the "Super He-Man Wolverine" effect or...as you called it..."The Elder *and Friends* Show!"
Webhead123 1 month ago
@Webhead123 Thanks.
Even tough I am more of a rules light kinda guy I still think the "game" part is a big part of the hobby. As an NPC I can totally see putting an elder with the players, because you can control him and make him more of a supporting character. But if it's a player then he needs to be a big focal point in the story so the player will feel involved. He will need to shine too. And it would be such a bore to send him somewhere else on a solo session in order to do that.
hammeredshitsteak 1 month ago
@hammeredshitsteak I agree. I lean in the direction of "rules-lite" myself and I find it frustrating that people assume my liking less complex rules means I think rules have less value. No no no! I just want the rules to be easier to interpret, extrapolate and execute.
I often hear many people discuss "game balance" from very specific angles (combat, character-level, etc) rather than more generalized ones, which is what I think the conversation needs to speak to.
Webhead123 1 month ago
@Webhead123 Hmm very true. But I think they are just talking in preferense to their own experiences mostly. Of what people they know have been whineing about the most. But that would be interesting to hear.
What would you have in mind specifically?
hammeredshitsteak 1 month ago
@hammeredshitsteak I dunno...maybe that's a good excuse for a Skype conversation! :-)
Webhead123 1 month ago
It's kinda like being Batman when Superman exists in the same party :-P
tfwoods3 1 month ago
You really need to learn to not hold back so much bro.
Why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel? Lol ;-)
AWESOME vid. Kudos!
TheMediaBunker 1 month ago
Out of curiosity why did they want one player to have so powerful a character?
The closest I ever got to that was playing 2nd edition ad&d and one player was running his halfling fighter/thief of 9th/3rd so so level and I was playing a 1st level Paladin... got raised from the dead after the group ran against a hag!
Darkwintre 1 month ago
@Darkwintre You need to watch other peoples videos on this issue to figure that out bro :) I did not come up with it, I reacted to it.
hammeredshitsteak 1 month ago
lol enjoyed that one :) the werewolf version of the odd couple lol
balance is an strange one because it matters but it also doesn't matter .and once you get into the extremes that's when the problems start.and why i like WHFRP no matter how big or hard you think you are, you can be taken down by a goblin arrow dipped in poo lol.i think a bit of common sense is needed .and if your always bitching at each other about who`s class/career is unbalanced then you prob need a new game/gm/players lol
Brainleaf74 1 month ago
I can't say I agree with everything said here. But, you hammered the shit out of this debate!!!
-Dominic @RollforDamage
RollForDamage 1 month ago
@RollForDamage Hehe thanks :D
No need to agree really, to each their own you know.
hammeredshitsteak 1 month ago
Put me in that game. It sounds fun. I don't care for the WOD stuff, but at least that sounds like an interesting roleplaying op to play as the subordinate to a very powerful player. I don't want to play care-bears the RPG where everything is brought down to rock paper scissors. I want to play a character. I want to have challenging role playing situations brought to the table as a player and as a GM. If everyone needs to be equal, that speaks more to the fact that the players need to feel equal.
murphysborounderdark 1 month ago
Glade you got that off your chest, unhealthy to keep that bottled up :) ,I understand where you are coming from I never liked it when people compare there views to how every one should play. I always see it as different play styles.
felipe1gojira 1 month ago
@felipe1gojira For sure. I understand it being a pain if one just whines about one class being more powerful than the other, but people were really talking about this elder stuff so to me that was far enough were it rubbed me wrong. But yeah we are not here to be "right" per se, but to voice our own opinions and learn. And stuff :)
hammeredshitsteak 1 month ago
With a rant like that, I would be scared to challenge the Storyteller, not the elder werewolf!
MaccacarianGuy 1 month ago
I think your friend might need a reminder of Garou culture there, seriously.
Anamizuki 1 month ago
Hmm, all good points. Its true in real life we do actually compare ourselves to others, and we do indeed get jealous. Extremes of power balance can indeed be demoralizing I agree there. I think doing something like that truly works or fails based on whether or not the players truly would enjoy such a thing.
SaudiLindsey4 1 month ago
@SaudiLindsey4 Yeah of course in the end it all boils down to personal taste and what ever you find fun.
hammeredshitsteak 1 month ago
I understand the rant, but I would like to hear this same argument but in a more coherent and cogent manner.
atari67 1 month ago
@atari67 Hmm. Perhaps, tough I'm not making promises ;)
hammeredshitsteak 1 month ago
Hmm, herkles1 said you were mocking me there, I didn't see it. Other than saying trash. Seemed like you were going to town on Braids here.
woodwwad 1 month ago
@woodwwad Yeah I was, but it was nothing personal. Just business :D
Nah, I mean the subject really rubs me wrong, but I have nothing against Brady :)
hammeredshitsteak 1 month ago
@hammeredshitsteak Not sure what I have to do with the subject.
woodwwad 1 month ago
preach it brotha!!!
Discretion is the better part of valor, wise warrior - hastily retreat from the skewed engagement and live to slay another day.
I would still answer the questions asked with; Yes I would (and have) opted to play the lower powered character, even at those extremes, and I have had fun doing so.
I understand not everyone wants to or is willing to try that, but the option should be open - balence mechanic for the setting not the party, balance plot for the party at the table.
thespiritcoyote 1 month ago
@thespiritcoyote Yeah I do agree it is about taste and personal preference. I'm just speaking from the heart :)
hammeredshitsteak 1 month ago
@hammeredshitsteak I can totally appreciate that!
let the passion shine, just don't forget to breathe... XD
thespiritcoyote 1 month ago
That was good. Nice one. I favourited it. I hope I really didn't annoy you that much ? :) I'm not trashing anyone else's game. Sorry you took it that way, man.
23penguins32 1 month ago
@23penguins32 Thanks, and no worries, it's all good. Just needed to get this stuff off my chest you know. Sorry if I made it seem too personal or anything, I made sure I did not single anyone out or anything.
hammeredshitsteak 1 month ago
Your videos are entertainig. I can understand your anger and I can agree with you. Also, I kept thinking "He needs epic music to go with his ranting."
ExplosiveOrange 1 month ago
@ExplosiveOrange Haha that would be funny. Well you can always play this in the backround as you are watching it :D
watch?v=GusLypfx7OQ
hammeredshitsteak 1 month ago
@hammeredshitsteak The first result for sad violin works too.
ExplosiveOrange 1 month ago
hehe, angry rant, and you seemed to mock ander at the end I think.
But I do agree with you. The balance should be there, but not necessarily mechanics as I said in my video. in your case, perhaps the cubs of this pack were better suited towards dealing with the human world and technology then the red talon elder. but each character should have a chance to shine without one hogging the spot light.
herkles1 1 month ago
@herkles1 Very true, and if you were to give all the characters a chanse to shine with a super character with them, you'd pretty much have to split them into doing whole different stuff all together. I often hear that the answer is to give others stuff to do that the others can't do so well. Well that's the whole duty thing again. And in the end how fun is it to play with everybody, except a solo turn for the giga character because he's in space fighting fucking Peruvian gods.
hammeredshitsteak 1 month ago
Damn you are a funny guy. Even when you are upset! I love the Finn's, best people ever.
thestrollingbones 1 month ago
@thestrollingbones Haha thanks :D
hammeredshitsteak 1 month ago
big poppa pump
Psychometrons 1 month ago
@Psychometrons HUH!?
hammeredshitsteak 1 month ago
@hammeredshitsteak isn't that Scott Steiner on your wall?
Psychometrons 1 month ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@Psychometrons Yeah it is :D
I was just doing the scott steiner "HUH!?" thing.
watch?v=Ve3-1zTcQOg
hammeredshitsteak 1 month ago
@hammeredshitsteak shit, I missed that reference, Now give me a fuckin' mic!
Psychometrons 1 month ago
That is a genuine angry rant right there. Also that friend of yours that you mention near the beginning of your video seems to not know what he is talking about. I would be angry too if I had to read his nonsense.
ZigCopasetic 1 month ago
@ZigCopasetic Haha, you covered your base nicely.
hammeredshitsteak 1 month ago