Ray Sandford, Advocates Speak Out Against Forced Electroshocks

[dcs002]

I'd kinda like to know the rest of the story. How did a judge become involved in this patient's medical decisions? I don't like what I see in this video, but I don't like half truths either. I particularly dislike organizations with an agenda using psych patients as mascots. If this is torture, then tell the whole story. It will stand up. If not, then stop using Ray for your cause.

[pillowbugg]

Raymond,

What do you have for this to continue?

PMD?

Catatonic, which doesn't appear to be, or

Schizoaffective with psychotic features?

Their is a reason the liberal judges in Minnesota are approving this...

[sag4985]

lot of the people posting negative comments here have no idea how many people are cured by ECT!

their opinion is merely based on some videos or movies rather than firm evidences..

[rapidpossumsex]

i cant even watch this... this is so fucked up. after 50 years of negative results why are we still fucking doing this

[MrPetey1001]

Dr. Dean Knudsen who prescribed the ect has opened his own practice:

Lakes Consultation Group

1155 Ford Rd

St. Louis Park, MN 55426

Ph: 952 378 1800

Fax: 952 378 1714

[MOBiL4u]

I live in Sweden (EU) and am sad to admit that ECT against the expressed will of the patients goes on here as well in a large scale. There has been critical programs on national TV but still nothing happens. If there are laws in EU against involuntary ECT they are obviously not being followed. Killing a few ECT-psychiatrists will unfortunately not stop forced involuntary ECT. Also, they are not so easy to kill because they are fast and highly intelligent as the are children of Waffen SS.

[BenjPhotoDotCom]

I'm not sure what the intent of this video is, but it certainly doesn't make Ray Sandford's case. No mention of why these treatments are being done or what his mental condition is. There's simply too much information missing for this video to generate an opinion one way or the other.

[TaZWhite]

@BenjPhotoDotCom They can't force ECT's unless someone is in extreme danger of harming themselves, and nothing else works.  It is extremely rare, and not continuous like this case. This is very sad.

[delphinadolphin]

Disgusting! What ever happened to human rights! If he is as "dangerous" as the officials say, why the hell is he allowed to be "free" to roam the streets if he wishes?

[md0206]

But your probably too fucking stupid to realize that,

[md0206]

This video shows the dumb ignorant nature of humanity, I laugh.. morons, if they tried to Electro Shock me, I would kill anyone in my vicinity in a second, incl those nazi doctors you got back there in the USA, you people make me sick, so you worked in that hospital and friend people's brain ? Well this is your fucking karma right there.

And if you wanted to really be with nature and lose your mental illnesses you would already have taken some Psychedelic Mushrooms and walk into a forest...

[alasyon]

@md0206 Um, I cannot understand what you are trying to say. "friend people's brain?"? Is that the psychedelic mushrooms talking?

[md0206]

No that's your dumb ignorant brain not saying to you, ah he probably ment Fried people's brain.

Typical dumb american you are ? Never travelled out of state ?

Don't try on me, you already lost.

[alasyon]

@md0206 I apologise for misinterpreting your statement. I now understand that you meant "fried people's brains". Unfortunately, you have been misinformed. Electroconvulsive therapy, at its highest strength, delivers a charge of less than 800 millicoulombs. AA batteries hold a charge of 10,404,000 millicoulombs each. Can you "fry" anything with a AA battery? Can you "fry" anything with a tiny fraction of a AA battery? The brain is not "fried". It is healed. This treatment saves lives.

[alasyon]

@md0206 Also, I am not American. I am Australian. And I respect all peoples and cultures of the world, including Americans. My enemy is ignorance.

[md0206]

@alasyon Will you tell that too the Kennedy family then ? I'm sure they a would agree with you. Ever heard of a Frontal Lobotomy, another great healing method. LOL.

You can't simply fix a depression with electro current, less or few, you dumb fuck.

[alasyon]

@md0206 A frontal lobotomy is not the same as electroconvulsive therapy.

[samd0001]

With all the progress in the sciences, it saddens me to see how little progress we've made in neuroscience. When will psychiatrists learn that if you 'cure' depression by destroying the mind, you've done more damage than you fixed. Its like trying to fix a tv with a bad signal by surging it with electricity until the tv breaks. Sure, the bad signal is gone, but now there's no signal at all.

[alasyon]

@samd0001 It's actually more like starting your car - a process that uses a small electrical signal to produce activation of a much, much larger system. I'll admit, my analogy is not precise, but it is much closer than yours.

[md0206]

Because these dumb doctors are very ignorant and materialistic, they don't know the wars of light and darkness and they for certainly don't know what life is all about.

Sheep, dumb sheep.

[samd0001]

I had no idea this kind of thing is still going on. It is shocking. I would rather have the government amputate my leg than fuck with my mind. This is America, not an Orwell novel. A forced ECT offends the most basic notions of LIBERTY. Men with psychological conditions are not criminals nor invalids. And even then I would consider it cruel and unusual punishment, amoral and beyond the right of any man or institution to inflict upon another.

[md0206]

If I lived in the USA and they tried to do that on me, I'd make headlines news in 10 seconds,

'Man stabs 10 doctors to death with pencil in their eyes after trying to ECT him'

Fucking fucks yes I will defend myself and you will die before you even know it.

[aplace2grow]

On a personal level, escaping the madness is what you would need to do. Run away! My father did this in the 1950s after several rounds of "treatments" when he had no mental illness. It was used as a social control then and is iffy as a treatment now (see Breggin's work). On a larger scale, we need to keep documenting what we don't like about the use of ECT until victims are taken seriously.

[alasyon]

Wow, many people leaving comments here, with very strong views on the subject. Suggestion: volunteer at a Mental Health Unit and follow the progress of a person receiving ECT.  Your mind may change (a scary thought for most).

[md0206]

Uhmm don't think that's a good idea, i'd murder all of those Nazi doctors in a second. Without hesitation. :)

[alasyon]

@md0206 Did the Nazis practice ECT?

[md0206]

@alasyon Alasyon, to be honest, I wasn't there but to give you an idea, the Nazi's performed operations on children and adults, without anthestetic, remove organs, put plants into people's forheads, needle liquid into the eyes, cut of limbs and arms, so my question to you is why would they not shock people to death ? 

They wouldn't use it for healing only for experimentation of the jews, sub humans. to their perceptions. = Ignorance. Really stupid question, Sick nazi bastards.

[alasyon]

@md0206 So, to be clear, you assumed (without checking facts) that Nazis "shocked people to death". Then you assumed that "shocked people to death" is the same as "electroshock therapy". Can I then, by the same leaps in logic, assume that you are a polar bear? You breathe oxygen and have warm blood, and a polar bear breathes oxygen and has warm blood, therefore, I assume you must be a polar bear.

[drshields1988]

dude if i was that guy id make a fucking fertilizer bomb and blow up the fucking hospital fuck those cunts

[SadChristian]

WHAT THE FUCK PSYCHIATRISTS??? You piece of shit apathetic son of a bitch fucking damn asshole bastards!!! You KNOW your bullshit field is not science and you continue to harm people like this for your own fucking profit. Or is it for your amusement? Fuck YOU!!! I almost hope there isn't a God for your sakes since I can't imagine what reaction He'll have to you as he recites for you what bullshit and what insane harm you caused to so many people!!!

[alasyon]

@SadChristian Oh dear. I sincerely hope you were drunk when you wrote this.

[alasyon]

The video is a good start, but doesn't answer key questions: What was Mr Sandford's level of functioning before the ECT, compared with now? How frequently had he required hospitalization prior to ECT, and how frequently afterwards? What signs of risk to himself and others were observed during the periods in which he was acutely unwell, and have those risks changed following ECT? These are rather personal questions, but they must be considered if a serious critique of ECT is to be constructed.

[ELFmindCONTROL]

If a serious critique of ECT is to be constructed, it must be based on the totality of the evidence, from the first use of ECT, to the present, from all around the world, from every record and every survivor, their families, and friends, and every witness, as well as every perpetrator. Examine the FINANCIAL gain; who profits, whose job and salary is reliant in part on the ongoing use of ECT?  Which government agencies and programs allow its' continuance and why? ECT=POWER: social control

[noncrazed]

Actually his mother talked about that in the beginning of the video. She said that the original 4 treatments had positive effects and brought him out of the manic episode and Ray himself says that these are the treatments that he consented to. After his orignal mania (from bipolar disorder) resolved, they for some reason have continued the ECT for 2 years, which really isn't endorsed by the APA. That's the problem.

[md0206]

@noncrazed I think what they are doing to him is the same as Nazi's did to Jews, if he doesn't want the treatment and he isnt a treat to himself or others, they can't do anything.

I'm dutch, this makes me wonder, you Americans have really some insanely sick sick sick laws. Look at you people. Jesus.

[MondoBeno]

If the State is allowing this to forcibly continue and the family doesn't want it, why not get on a Greyhound bus and head for New York?

In New York, the treatment of the mentally ill is lousy, but nowhere near this bad.

[PrOzAcPoPpEr]

It's things like this that make people, like me, terrified to speak up about having a mental illness..

I hope things get better for you Ray.

I really, really do.

[GoArmyInfantry90]

I agree -nods-

[alasyon]

@PrOzAcPoPpEr Ironic that somebody "terrified to speak up about having a mental illness" would have such a username. It is cool though, because Prozac is the, like, BAD drug, man, and those Big Pharmas want us to be pill POPPERS, and every second letter is a capital. Also, I'm betting that you don't actually have a mental illness, but feigned one to get out of doing something unpleasant, then complained when the court ordered that you be treated for the "illness". Correct, yes?

[SadChristian]

Great satire. Instead of presenting falsifiable tests to prove depression is in fact a mental illness (and thus that prozac is necessary for anyone), you present appeals to ridicule that big companies would never seek profits at others' expense. It not only shows a severe lack of knowledge as to how real science works, it also shows a lack of knowledge of very recent events (large companies seeking profits at others' expense). Psychiatrists need more people like you to keep them in line!

[alasyon]

@SadChristian Antidepressants have been shown to be efficacious for the treatment of depression repeatedly, in independent, large, double-blind, randomized control trials (ie: real science). Also, large companies aren't always evil - Why are you stereotyping?

[SadChristian]

@alasyon

There's nothing to stereotype. You need an objective test for it to be science. It's really that simple. Psychiatrists don't use tests - they use their opinion. That's it really. That's the definition of pseudo science - untestable hypotheses. If they have an objective test, then they need to use it. But if not, they need to stop diagnosing and handing out meds. These pills are NOT fucking toys and I'm disgusted that this is how they make a quick buck.

[alasyon]

@SadChristian Both subjective and objective findings are important in the diagnosis of any illness. Psychiatric diagnoses, as with medical and surgical diagnoses, are made on the basis of both subjective reports and objective observations.

[alasyon]

@SadChristian Some examples of psychiatric observations include: tearfulness, agitation, monotonic speech, echolalia, catatonia, flat affect, etc. Granted, it is often more subjective than other fields of medicine, but there are established criteria, and inter-rater reliability is on par with other fields. Studies of psychiatric treatments include comparison to placebo, and before/after subjective and objective measurements of the illness studied, just like the rest of medicine.

[alasyon]

@SadChristian As for a "quick buck", there are psychiatrists working in free clinics, earning much less than they would if they'd taken an "easier option", which to me says that they must actually want to help people, and must actually see these treatments working. Again, I would encourage people to volunteer at a Mental Health Unit, to get a first-hand understanding, rather than being influenced by myself or anybody else on the Internet.

[PrOzAcPoPpEr]

@alasyon My username is just a name that I made up when I was around 11. I was taking prozac then and felt horrible that I had to take it at the time. I've been on several different medications since then and have been diagnosed wrong and met horrible therapists in my time. I have bipolar disorder II, panic disorder, impulse control disorder, and social phobia. It's people like you who just assume that others aren't as ill as they really are that create the negative stigma about mental illness.

[johnjoycejr]

How can anyone "force" you to do something on an outpatient basis? How about this idiots, next time they show up to take you in for a treatment, don't answer the friggin door! jeez....

[woolfarm]

Well, as you see, he lives in a "group home" so can't refuse to open the 'friggin door'.

[Napalmxxx2]

here's a better idea: get the money for a greyhound, then go somewhere else, get a false id and change your looks a little bit, it works like a charm 9 out of 10 times.

[markae0]

I think Ray like most mentally ill have no source of income, as in money. If he took a greyhound bus someplace he would become homeless. Homeless as in no sleep, no food and no place to wash.

[AtlantisAstrobiology]

Ray is just one of many being subjected to this cruel, inhuman treatment. I knew of a 17-year-old girl whose parents never consented to ECT, yet received 11 rounds (would have been 12 if not for the ward-wide protest she organized). Her crime? She was profoundly gifted (intellectually). Horribly misunderstood by those who should have been there to support her, all her gifts and talents went to waste... If Ray's supporters can find a way to end this, then perhaps there is hope for others too.

[stopHAARP]

I have an 81 year-old aunt who was given 12 est's for post-partum depression. As a result, she can't remember anything before the age of 8, and her thinking is slower and she loses track of her thoughts. Electric shock did nothing positive for her, she becomes extremely upset when she thinks of this torture that was done to her in the guise of helpful treatment. We must fight to outlaw electroshock and the sale of est kits.

[BenjPhotoDotCom]

@stopHAARP I don't remember much before the age of 8. There are a lot of 81 year olds whose thinking is slower and lose track of their thoughts. Correlation does not equal causation. You may as well say that her problems are the result of drinking water.

[BenjPhotoDotCom]

@stopHAARP This should in now way mark me as a supporter of what's being discussed here. I just think it's important to point out logical fallacies when something important is at stake.

[richg1934]

EST is torture and banned, according to the European Union

Convention against Torture, Cruel and Degrading Treatment and Punishment. This convention is very similar to the United Nations Convention against Torture, Cruel and Degrading Treatment and Punishment, ratified by the U.S. Senate and President in 1984, a treaty according to the Constitution of the United States, as so the law of the land. I believe due process of law will eventually equalize the electrical activity of all humans. RMG

[alasyon]

That information is incorrect. Have you actually read the article you are citing?

[peacewogs]

i have had 18 ect's in the mid 90s and am very opposed to this 'treatment' ... it is inhuman and i pray you guys win your case soon.

[maryellen728]

This is torture not medicine.

I just watched a video with an "expert" on electro shock explaining how wonderful it was for him. He'd probably love a baseball bat slammed against his skull, too.

Amnesty International should step up to the plate on Ray's behalf.

[davidmcintoshc]

maryellen728 - you are without a doubt absolutely correct in that Ray Sandford is being tortured again and again and again.

[AnaLimaLuiza]

@maryellen728 Thank the Lord Amnesty International is not paying attention to the crimes committed to the "mentally ill".

It's been a long time Amnesty International works for the US government and the corporations and surely they would not help and make more people take drugs and electroshock.

[Makron5]

@maryellen728 Sorry to tell you but Amnesty International is sometimes used as a tool by the capitalists. Look at the ' unreported' Darfur and how that was overblown and the most reported thing meanwhile there was no genocide.

[MIDISRIGHTS]

This abuse must stop.

[witness4justice]

Sign the petition to stop the forced electroshock of Ray Sandford

[JSR8008]

We need to spread the word so forced electroshock practice is erradicated right here and right now!

[lars2002]

Please spread the word to all your family and friends. Contact the governor of Minnesota. This is wrong. Like his mom says, the shocks 'go on and on and on...."

[maryellen9maddock]

We are MadProud of you, Ray. We hope you get the support you want and those who want to force medical 'treatments' on others will listen to your courageous voice. THANKS.

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive". C.S. Lewis.

Mary Maddock, MindFreedom Ireland.

[jessiecabincom]

My sincerest well wishes to you Ray, family and Mindfreedom! More people need to step up and hold the Psyciatric marketers accountable for their crimes against fellow human beings.

[maurice]

I have sent some messages for Mind Freedom's campaign. But if Mind Freedom is t be trusted, it must take a position on the "court change", which abolishes the finality of all legal decisions and makes them open-endedly faultable, and which has been covered up and kept under media silence for 10 years. It needs to use the court change to hold the decision makers faulted, in cases like this.

[Wolfdeck]

Hi Ray

I have the greatest respect for your endurance in defiance of criminal authority and your mom's steadfast support of her son's self-determination.

[martin13dr010]

Thank of MindFreedom the case of Ray gets public worldwide. The treatment thats done to Ray and surely to countless other victims is inhuman and a disaster.

Not only neuroleptics harm us and cause brain damage - much worse is the effect of electroshock, it should be forbidden. Worldwide!

My kindest wishes to Ray!

In support

Martin Jerchow, Germany (psychiatric survivor)

[LLigaia]

The mistreatment of the mentally distressed in this country is an outrage. Read "Mad In America: Bad Science, Bad Medicine, and The Enduring Mistreatment of the Mentally Ill" by Robert Whitaker. It will blow your mind.

[jaymedecas]

Yes, it's the best book I've ever read on the truth behind psychiatry. It's amazing how some things do not change, no matter how barbaric.

[swagner64]

Great job! This is what needs to be done to get the message out. Kudos to all involved.