Harnischfechten sparring demonstration

[DownWithThePlague]

Damn, that was very good indeed! Was that in England ("in Saint George's name")?

[themadelf]

Gentlemen, aside from the fencing masks what kind of body armor/padding are you wearing in this video?

[qyark]

@themadelf I don't know what these two were using specifically, but in my group we used basically a mix of hockey and lacrosse armor, since both games involve getting smacked with sticks they are both good options.

[VikingWannaBe51887]

awesome demo! Do you guys plan to get harnesses in the near future? 14th century armour isn't that difficult to do...and would make your demos look even better :)

[TheUsrper1]

Do you think this same concept of gripping the spear and longsword together could also apply to a poleaxe or halberd? I'm sure it might work because they're both staff weapons, but the poleaxe and halberd can be so darn heavy... I bought a book about Ringeck's techniques this morning and I'm waiting for it to arrive. Anyway, any thoughts about the halberd/longsword combination?

[pappyDApirate]

any books on this 4 sale?(besides the ones by hugh knight), also, what web sight would one reccomend for the armor/ spears, and are there any good schools neer california?

[lvcsslacker]

what I find unique is they use the sword like a club, instead of a sword. Gripping it by the blade's a new concept to me... Very interesting to watch, and amazingly brutal.... I'm impressed as hell!

[MikkoKuusirati]

Striking with the hilt of a reversed sword, basically turning the sword into a warhammer, is called a "mordhau" (murderstroke) in historical fencing manuals; you can also use it to hook the opponent's leg from underneath him, for example. Grabbing the blade is "half-swording", and is done to increase point control and leverage, and to shorten the effective reach of your weapon for use up close. It's a very important technique in armoured combat. :)

[monkeyishi]

are they wooden weapons?

[animematt]

seem to be wood, with rubber on the tips

[BigDummy23]

The swords are shinai, like in Kendo. The techniuqes, including the half-swording (gripping the blade) are historical techniques from old fencing manuals. So isw the duel using spear and longsword. Look up "German school of Fencing" on wikipedia to learn more, lots of links on the bottom of that page.

[dakaodo]

Nicely done. Good variety of techniques to show the crowd the full range of possibilities. And I *really* enjoyed the deceitful deployment of the dagger at ~4:10. :D

One might wish for steel harnesses, but who has a few thousand dollar / euros to spare, eh?

[Harkilas]

Oh come on, do you know how much this sportharnesses cost? and you can get a nice and working authentic harness (of transitional or international 14th cent. style) for roughly the same amount of money as these plastic armours.

I cannot see any excuses for using this plastic stuff in front of an audience!

[Harkilas]

Echt mal Leute, wie könnt ihr sowas auch noch vor Publikum vorführen??

Ist euch das nicht peinlich? Harnischfechten in der Plastiksparringrüstung! Dann könnt ihr ja gleich noch Larpschwerter nehmen, die sind wahrscheinlich noch besser dafür geeignet als eure umgebauten shinais.

Ich kann ja verstehen das die modernen Protektoren für euch Sinn machen, wenn ihr Sparring im Blossfechten macht. Aber für Harnischfechten ist das absurd! Warum tut ihr das nur? Das hat NICHTS mit hist. Fechtkunst zu tun!

[dakaodo]

Every communal effort is 3 steps forward, 2 backward, no? Yes, the appearance is far from top-shelf, but I disagree on content. They show a definite familiarity with judicial combat format and some genuine effort to use techniques other than "poke and pray".

In the grand scheme, do a search on YT for "longsword" and perhaps you can agree that at least they're not 15-year olds throwing wild mittelhauen and shouting, "Finish him!" in falso basso.

[dakaodo]

Damn these 500-char limits.

Please forgive me if I have misunderstood your comment -- I don't speak German well.

For the record, I score this 73 on gear (at least used rubber-tipped spears and wooden wasters; no padded weapons), and 82 on technique.

(100 score would be Liechtenauer himself descending with a choir of angels to smite the wayward shills and LARPers!) J/K

[dakaodo]

With all respect, one can lowball a "sportharnisch" around $500, or splurge on better-fitting gear for up to $900.

Steel harnesses are more sensitive to fitting issues, and IMO anything < $1500 for even a half harness moves like crap.

Plus with sport resale shops, sport gear is easier to find.

But I live in the US, and I'm sure Euro HEMA students can more easily find repro armor.

But I agree with steel armor -- that's why I make my own! Versus buying armor, my hobby has paid off! :)

[Harkilas]

@Dakaodo

Yes. Their techniques are alright and I should emphasise that I do not critize their skills, yet they are kind of wasted when they try to show harnischfechten in this way. This is simply not harnischfechten becaus you have to wear a harness to do it properly. I am espacially enraged on their boldness to show their harnischfechten in sportharnesses before an audience. It does give a wrong Idea about what we are trying to do with our swords. ...

I too love the char limit ;-)

[Harkilas]

The people training in plastic armour cannot learn harnischfechten rightly. They move and fight in equipment that is not even nearly compareable to steel harnesses conerning weight maneuverability and restrictment of vision. Thus their achievemnts will be spoiled. I now it'S a pity with the money. But it is not hat much if you spare the 900 $ for the plastic harness. After all armour was always expensive and if we are to poor to by it instantly we have to spare and by piece after piece.

[dakaodo]

OK, I can respect and even agree with you. You make some great points. Thanks for showing that Internet debates can remain intelligent. :D

A particularly good comment is as regards buying your armor piecemeal. It's what the ancients did when on a budget as well. Helm, gauntlets, breastplate, cannons (arms), legs, roughly in that order.

I hope to have my own harness completed in 1 more year (if I don't change it again! It's late 15th cen, ~40% done). Then I will welcome comments and flames! :D

[Harkilas]

Thanks, too!

Hrm, somehow my last post seems lost.

I was saying that even a person with no possibility to make armour can make an aketon and maybe mail parts, so cutting down the overall price. If one can make simple parts of armour, one needs only to by helm, gloves and greaves if one makes an transitional harness, it won't even involve much dishing or raising (just for elbows and knees).

I like 15th armour, too :-)

But it is so expensive if you want good gothic armour :-(

[Harkilas]

I am building up a set of late 14th century armour which is expensive enough... But making parts your self really pays off, though it takes its time.

Nontheless I am really happy to discuss this video in a rational way here with you. E. g. the fighters in the video do use shinais.

I think that shinais are good when your equipment and your skills are yet insufficient. To me it would be better to use blunts or fechtfedern. Especially if in front of an audience.

[dakaodo]

Agreed -- our club uses shinai for sparring, aluminum wasters for drills. We are slowly adding feder in, to get the proper feel of steel blades.

14th cen is a good compromise of looks and ease to make/buy. :)

I am making a 15th cen Milanese export style (for other readers: Italian with some Gothic elements). Less fluting required!

But that's for show fights. For more normal practice, I prefer an infantry harness, with steel only on vital parts. More mobility. And easier to maintain rust-free!

[Harkilas]

it's nice to train in a lighter kind of armour nad milanese design is cool beyond question :-))

But one of our goals is to attend to full contact tournaments which ar held in eastern europe for the greater part.Therefor we train in heavy harnesses, it's kind of serious :-) we hope to find out how our training pays off under realistic circumstances.

We are looking forward to use fechtfedern to allow us the application of fullforce thrusts in our sparring.

[Harkilas]

These "tournaments" in eastern Europe may seem unorthodox but they give a realistic feeling for a serious swordfight with an opponent trying to get you down with all he has. A bit like boxing. Sadly, thrusts are forbidden, which is nearly the only safety measurment beyond the savety of your harness, but still it's better then everything else I have seen until now. They use blunted steel swords, and there happen to be some k.o. from time to time but after all, we fight with swords, don't we?

[Harkilas]

We also are looking forward to use fechtfedern to allow us the application of

fullforce thrusts in our sparring.

We then may find out whether or not the current interpretations of the books of the medieval fencingmasters are right or wrong.

I mean the actual WMA scene is about reading & interpreting the manuals and applicating them in light sparring. #this is nescessary but testing your thesises abot these books in realistic combat is yet not ambiquitious enough.

[Harkilas]

Of course we only do this with blossfechten, as armoured combat techniques would be as effective as they where once against similar harnesses like the ones we are using. Yet I hope to find a way for harnsichfechten as well :-)

[animematt]

How much would a set of armor cost? Not custom or anything, just somethign someone could practice in.

[Harkilas]

Depending on where you live and what you can do by yourself. From 500 euro to 800 if you can make many parts by your self and have enough time for it. Much more if you aren't lucky enough to have a workshop and some craftingskills. I live in Germany, beeing able to get some quite good stuff from here, Poland, Czech Rep. and Scandinavia; to accetable prices and low shipping costs. If you are an American, well, it won't be cheap. A functional armour completely bought would be at 1400 - 1600 euro.

[animematt]

Yes, I am in America. At the moment I am interested in Viking fighting (especially the axe), and Full Harness fighting.

[Leondrian]

Very good clip. I tried to defend against an opponent that had a short spear a while back and I didn't stand a chance. Haven't practiced any techniques though, but I thought it really illustrated how hard it's to defend against a spear. I hope you make more videos in this fashion.

/Robert

[animematt]

Wow, that was amazing! The last bit was probably the best, draw the dagger, and WHAM right into the head.

Excellent, I wish I could learn these techniques.

[Knightmartialarts]

You can, do you have any ARMA or other organizations near you? I see you're especially interested in these vids. Makes me feel good. Perhaps I'll put demos on too.

[animematt]

I dont think we do. We have a couple McDojos, and an Aikido place somewhere. That is about it. I will have to check though.

[samuraiofhonor]

Thank you tiamat and Djemps. I was thinking something like that but wasnt sure

[Knightmartialarts]

I'm pleased to see someone like you interested in this. I trained in both kenjutsu and "real" fencing. I think you'll find both cultures have a lot in common.

[samuraiofhonor]

why are they wearing their swords along with their spears at the same time in their hands?

[tiamat9989]

I think it's because you don't want to have to draw your sword in the middle of combat when the opponent closes in range.

Instead they drop/throw the spear and immediately engage with halfsword/swordwrestling when the opponent gets too close for spear combat.

[Djemps]

Because this is how it is illustrated in the old manuals. Aside from being historicaly accurate, Tiamat has given some other good reasons why a knight would hold sword and spear together.

[tiamat9989]

nicely done!

Are those hockey shoulderpads you guys are wearing?

[fortejeff]

This is great free play, Blossfechter guys! Great throw/sweep at 04:30ish -- nice control. And I love the occasional high kick that slips in there :-). I'm posting it for the guys on my list to check out. Again, well done!

[psyclog]

nice performance

[jeeezuz]

unreal tournament soundtrack???

[skallagrimm]

Nice exchanges and good performance.

[Djemps]

I like the approach here for your demos. It seems that the two fighters begin with free sparring, no choreography, but if one of the players scores a legitimate strike you 'act out' the rest of the battle to give the audience a better theatrical performance. I like the concept very much.

[louiepastore1]

Enjoyed the demo... Well done!