Goodness Without God is Good Enough: William Lane Craig vs Paul Kurtz 4/7

[4um360]

"Impossible for atheists to condemn war" (2:12)? Should we asume theists have the moral standing to do so? The god of the Bible requires war. Read 1 Samuel 15:2-3. This is just one example of many in the Bible. Kurtz has it right; no moral atheist or deist would dare give the orders god gave Saul through Samuel.

[lukeism2]

if god doesn't exist.. then william lane craig would probably rape someone then jump off a cliff

[CompEAgnostic]

This guy is well spoken, but he does not explain why god has the ability to determine what is moral. If it is because godis all-powerful, is that not the epitome of "Might makes right?" We all know that might does not make right. The fact is that god does not determine morality (whether he exists or not), although it is concievable that god could reveal morality to us. But this is dangerous. Even believers know that wing-nuts do all kindsof crap in the name of god. So why not just use reason.

[snackynak]

Here's a question for believers:

Lets say some hypothetical agency has you and a loved one held prisoner. You believe in god, but your loved one does not. They tell you that if you do not reject god, they will kill your loved one right in front of you, and you know that they'll go to hell because their soul is not saved.

Do you:

A. Damn yourself to hell in hopes that your loved one will eventually be saved

or

B. let them kill your loved one, damning them to hell.

[collins1188]

option B is the moral choice, for you did not damn your loved one to hell, they did themselves. You did not kill the loved one, the agency holding the prisoners did. All you did was tell the truth, which I think we all agree can not be immoral.

[snackynak]

The question isn't necessarily about which is immoral or moral, but which one does the greatest good.

So telling the truth takes precidence over saving someone's life by lying or truthfully rejecting god?

Also, if dying for someone can be considered the greatest act of love, then what about sacrificing one's own eternal life for someone else's? wouldn't that be considered an even greater act of love?

[meangreen4321]

oh God... I hope I would never have to rely on a fundamental theist to make a moral decision, if my life were hanging in the balance. You'd sooner let someone blow my brains out than take a chance that God will forgive your denial. That is SAD!!!

[meangreen4321]

As if "life and death" situations weren't bad enough!! This just goes to show the moral dilemma that Christianity can create with stakes like these. If God would damn someone for taking option A, he would be the most vile, monstrous, savage deity in the cosmos!

[meangreen4321]

@snackynak

I had a rethink about your hypothetical scenario. If the gun was pointed at your own head, you would have a legitimate choice to deny God and live, or confess God and die. However, if the gun is pointed at a loved one, it means we have an irreconcilable moral dilemma. A solution would be to pray to God to intervene, and if nothing happens, ask for God to forgive your subsequent denial. Saving a person's life is paramount over any faith confession.

[lukeism2]

yes we're animals, almost as smart as dolphins

[meangreen4321]

Why does morality need an objective basis? If humanity can achieve "illusory" morality to help us function as a society, then that's great! Besides, what evidence to we have that any religion provides access to the actual objective morality? Religion could be illusory as well! At least with Humanism we can stop kidding ourselves and be mature and responsible and possibly achieve even greater morality.

[collins1188]

"IF humanity can achieve "illusory" morality to help us function as a society, then that's great!"

That's the most hypocritical thing I have ever heard. Isn't the most basic and fundamental talking-point for the atheist world view that God is an illusion and thus we SHOULD NOT believe in him.... thus "The God Delusion"....

wow...

[meangreen4321]

My point is, we NEED morality to function as a society. Resorting to Nihilism would be harmful and malignant to mankind. I used the word "illusory" only in the sense that we can't fully and objectively know what is the "true" morality, but we can use our rational facilities to determine what is moral. Religion claims to have an infallible moral code, but this appears to be more a product of ancient cultures than of God.

[RobertBaral365]

A flash of lightning, a crack of thunder. It is time, the ritual will now begin. We stand before the dark alter as the demon lord stirs. Foul sheep drown themselves in empty lies. We are here to render them to pieces. The haunting winds begin to blow. A sacrificial lamb is bestowed before the serpent. Lucifer has awoken. The ground shatters under his might. Slaves of christ huddle within a church. Their time is at a darkened end. With a mighty blow, Satan crushes his final foes.

[simplic10]

Satanism? Really?

At least the Christians have Bach.

[RobertBaral365]

A flash of lightning, a crack of thunder. It is time, the ritual will now begin. We stand before the dark alter as the demon lord stirs. Foul sheep drown themselves in empty lies. We are here to render them to pieces. The haunting winds begin to blow. A sacrificial lamb is bestowed before the serpent. Lucifer has awoken. The ground shatters under his might. Slaves of christ huddle within a church. Their time is at a darkened end. With a mighty blow, Satan crushes his final foes.

[ihateneocons]

why cant i curse?

whats so wrong?

we're all adults here, i would think.

and im asking you honestly, do you favor censorship?

[Christianjr4]

It's not so much the cursing, it's the explicit insults that I don't allow. Not only is it disrespectful and offensive, it also detracts from the discussion. It turns the debate from a respectful and sincere discussion about an argument or position into a childish one in which people just throw insults at the other side in order to score points. If that's censorship then so be it. I won't allow it. And it's precisely that we're adults that we shouldn't say such things.

[ihateneocons]

what word did i use?

and of course you are all for censorship.

[ihateneocons]

rather than give me thumbs down and tell me i was being profane - tell me what you disagree with.

i said nothing profane. this is oh so very typical.

[Christianjr4]

Yes, you did. I don't know allow excessive insults and profanity directed by any speaker in the video or other persons in the comments section. This goes for everyone, and as such, I have deleted those comments before by such people, regardless of their beliefs. Since you clearly used profanity (the worse kind) and clearly directed it against a person, I simply deleted your comment. Don't want your comments deleted, then don't make those kind of statements. Your other comments are still up.

[ihateneocons]

thank you. someone gets it.

fascism was dogma and at least semi-theistic. hitler had concordats with rome. about 50% of SS members were catholics.

need i mention the crusades? its all banal by now.

all ideologies are dangerous when they take away all consideration for human pain and suffering. its SO OBVIOUS.

things are bad because of their impact on people, not because god decrees it to be bad. theists only think stealing is wrong since god says so, not because of what it does to others

[FUahole69]

The bottom line is that no one can prove if we would have morals if the mention of god never existed, but with the ability of the human brain to figure out how to send people to the moon I would say it's a safe bet people would work out a moral system to see what was right or wrong!

[Merologic]

We don't not God to recognize what is 'good'. But w/o God morality loses it's objective dimension, that's Craig's claim.God's nature constitues the the standard of morality to which we ground moral value.

[ihateneocons]

so what if it loses its objectivity? and god's standard is atrocious. and god's morality has nothing to do with morality, really.

think about it. a theist is refraining from stealing NOT because its wrong to take someones possessions, but because GOD is watching and fears eternal punishment. that's not morality. that's fear-mongering. morality is also understanding WHY something is wrong. the theist says "because god told me so" not because of its impact on others.

[Merologic]

Well I agree, stealing is wrong. but on Atheism we are just animals, there's nothing really intrinsically destructive with an act of stealing, only with God can we ground the values that we percieve so clearly.

[ihateneocons]

we are animals, but animals with an elevated sense of awareness.

we know what its like for people to feel pain. we know what its like to be happy. we prefer being happen over sad and hurt, so morality is about maximizing happiness without sacrificing justice (like killing an innocent person to please the wild crowd)

once god is unquestionable, what happens when a priest tells uneducated soldiers to kill moslems far away.

they arent to question it.

morality is about peoples feelings, not Gods

[DisturbedYetHappy]

so how do you explain the fact that I'm willing to die for someone I love, to end my life and not be around to be thanked?

[IcyIconoclast]

because the existence of your loved one is more important than your own. plain and simple. i hope that wasn't intended to be a tricky question.

you are confirming my point. you are acting to increase happiness. you know that death is undesirable so you take your life to spare another.

im guessing you wouldn't take a bullet for a cactus. probably because the cactus would have no feelings of gratitude or meaningfulness.

where's the trick?

[DisturbedYetHappy]

No trick. It just doesnt make sense to me

We as humans are survivors. We're here because we have survived, and we're selfish in that sense. I'd avoid pain at all cost, I'd avoid a life threatening situation if I can, but the fact that I'd be willing to self-sacrifice makes me unique in the animal kingdom.

All kinds of animals are willing to protect their family, but none of them would die for each other

[IcyIconoclast]

two things:

one: we are self-sacrificial for several reasons. First off, we have a heightened sense of empathy that we've accumulated through a conscience unmatched in nature. we will die for others so they wont feel pain, and we do that as a conscious decision.

two: some animals do behave self-sacrificially, such as prairie dogs who expose themselves with a loud cry to warn others of a predator.

and what does self-sacrifice prove if anything? that there's a loving god who like self-sacrifice?

[2000deg]

"morality is about maximizing happiness without sacrificing justice" So it not all about happiness. Its also about justice! Why is stealing wrong, even if nobody, even the owner, takes notice of it? Because its unjust! Morality is about justice, happiness is merely a by-product of justice.

But in the animal kingdom (i.e. the atheistic world), there is no justice. Is it unjust, if a hawk kills a fish? No! And thats the problem with atheism.

[meangreen4321]

All this talk about "grounding values" is just philosophical meandering. Morality is acting on our internally perceived notion of right and wrong. Morality can exist apart from God, and no doubt has evolved along with our species. We can't point to animals for comparison because the rules are different. They don't even have moral capacities or choices. If we were a bunch of stone-age nincompoops, perhaps killing a hunting rival and stealing his boar was acceptable behaviour for that era.

[emopeacekid]

If atheists are going to lay at the door of all religious people the crimes that have been committed in the name of God ie the Crusades, inquisition, jihads, then atheistic communist crimes will be laid at the door of atheists. I know you and many atheists of good will abhor those kind of things but we abhor oppression done in the name of god and believe that God would never approve of such things.

[pro404]

I wish other atheists would actually stop bringing that up and use some of the more productive arguments. Sure, there were religious crusades, but is that really relevant to any living christians? I would hope not. Suicide terror has a lot more to do with foreign occupation than religion, so it is unproductive for us to point the finger and say, "see, religion makes you blow yourself up."

That being said, anyone who blames atheism for communists is either dishonest or not thinking very hard.

[emopeacekid]

atheism can only exist as a tumor on the bootay of a Theistically based society and when Atheists have ruled a country opporession and mass murder have been the rule of the day. If atheists are right- might would truly make right.

[pro404]

Take a look at some of the European figures. Atheism is growing rather rapidly. To say that somewhere like Sweden is full of oppression and mass murder is a blatant lie.

It is most unfortunate that atheism seems to be connected with leftist politics and socialism. Small government conservatives need to stop alienating atheists or there will be some serious problems in the future. (and when socialism fails, you people will probably run around blaming atheism in the same dishonest fashion).

[ihateneocons]

atheism does NOT equal communism. all atheism says is that there is no God. thats it!

atheistic countries like sweden, norway etc... are very atheistic and are rated the healthiest, safest places to live.

morality comes from knowing what impact your actions have on others' happiness, pain, suffering etc...

if youre only not killing because god tells you not to, you're dangerous. because what happens when someone tells you god has new ideas - go kill moslems in the crusades.

people listen!