Paul Neubauer, viola - Wild Purple for Viola by Joan Tower

[marijkeviola]

Love this.

[catnip4life55]

For the record this is not atonal

[cheeseboy001]

Man, it looks like they're having a complicated discussion, but they're just going "lol no u suck, your music kills plants lol"...

[mrpajamasharkman]

I don't think I've ever seen a comments section on a video look like this. I suppose it's at least a thoughtful argument, but... I just don't have words.

[KhagarBalugrak]

But hey, even if atonal music does kill plants and brain cells, maybe it can be used as a slow weed-killer...if nothing else is around to hear it...

[bbbartolo]

good to have some more heavyweight, provocative pieces for this glorious instrument. thanks Joan!

[KhagarBalugrak]

Dozens of studies on the effect of atonal music on the human brain have concluded that atonal music literally reduces IQ, destroys the brain's ability to remember things, and is otherwise very, very bad for you. Also, plants exposed to atonal music for just a few hours a day die after three weeks of exposure. In contrast, plants that listen to Palestrina grow larger and liver longer than would normally be expected.

Some food for thought.

[ShawnBoucke]

Please cite your sources.

Just because you have trouble understanding modern music does not mean you have the right to make up things up.

Your ridiculous assertion is no different from the old claim that the tritone or B-flat is "The devil in music"

[KhagarBalugrak]

"The Sound of Music and Plants" by Dorothy Retallack. She is a researcher who has spent her entire life studying the effects of music on plants.

My assertion, far from being ridiculous, is heavily supported by empirical data. Plants that listen to Schoenberg and other atonal composers die within 3 - 4 weeks of exposure. Plants that listen to Palestrina and Vivaldi thrive, and grow faster than plants that listen to no music at all.

[KhagarBalugrak]

I understand atonal music far more than you do - which is why I refuse to listen to it. I understand the obvious - that it is harmful and destructive - whereas so many "sophisticated" musicians can't even recognize a spade as a spade, and think harmful music is in fact something wonderful and profound.

The truth is that atonal music, far from being free of intervals, is singularly obsessed with ONE interval - the minor second. It builds all its pieces around this one interval.

[ShawnBoucke]

There is no evidence of modern music itself reducing IQ, destroying parts of the brain, and as you put it being "very, very bad for you."

You have no evidence for any of that, and if you are going to cite Dorothy Retallack, you should state the facts, and not the ridiculous assertion that the plants die.

[KhagarBalugrak]

Except that in Retallack's studies, the plants exposed to atonal music DID DIE within three weeks of listening to it for just a few hours a day. Those are facts. I'm sorry if you don't enjoy hearing about these facts, but as they say, facts are facts.

Also true is that in Retallack's studies, plants listening to tonal classical music thrived, but plants listening to heavy metal died even more quickly than those plants that listened to atonal music.

[ShawnBoucke]

In her study music that was played for 8 hours a day (even classical) died within two weeks. So apparently listening to classical music for 8 hours a day reduce your IQ too?

You dodged the main issue once again. You said listing to that music will lower your IQ, destroy parts of your brain and be "very, very bad for you." You claim that plant growth has a direct connection to human development, but have no data for it and dodge the 8 hours of classical music killing plants issue.

[KhagarBalugrak]

Lol, you're twisting the data. ANY kind of music for eight hours straight every day killed the plants. HOWEVER, plants responded in different ways when THREE HOURS or music per day was played intermittently.

In the three-hour groups, atonal music and rock music killed the plants, and tonal classical music caused them to grow faster than normal.

Those are the facts.

[KhagarBalugrak]

Of course, when you pick and choose only that data that allows you to make the conclusion you WANT to make, then you draw wrong conclusions from the data, which is what you have done here.

[ShawnBoucke]

That is my point to you. She studied 8 hours of classical and it too killed plants. You cant just ignore the 8 hours of classical music and say atonal music is "bad." What you have ignored again is that you connect music to brain development directly. You claim that since atonal music might influence plant growth it must also kill brain cells. On that claim, you must also state that listening to classical music such as Palestrina for 8 hours will also kill brain cells, or will you ignore it

[KhagarBalugrak]

@ShawnBoucke you are AGAIN twisting the data. EIGHT HOURS OF ONE SINGLE PITCH, NOT CLASSICAL TONAL MUSIC, KILLED THE PLANTS. NO GROUP OF PLANTS LISTENED TO EIGHT HOURS OF MUSIC EACH DAY WITHOUT A BREAK.

However, there were groups of plants that listened to THREE hours of music each day. In these groups of plants that listened to MUSIC and not only SINGLE PITCHES, the groups that listened to atonal music died, and those that listened to Palestrina thrived.

[KhagarBalugrak]

@ShawnBoucke, if you're going to disregard that study of the effects of different types of music on plants, I can tell you there are dozens, if not hundreds of studies that prove that tonal classical music improves test scores, and that rock music makes them alot worse. If you want sources, then fucking look them up yourself. Now, if both plants and humans respond well to tonal classical music, and respond badly to rock music...well, you get the point.

[KhagarBalugrak]

@ShawnBoucke, just in case you can't draw the obvious conclusion, it is strongly implied that human brains also respond negatively to atonal music. The human brain matches the plants' response to tonal classical, jazz, and rock music. It's a sure thing that human brains will again match plants' responses to atonal music (in other words, be damaged by it).

[KhagarBalugrak]

@ShawnBoucke, I get this feeling that even if a thousand studies proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that atonal music harms the brain, you'd still be here, comically arguing that not enough research was done, that the studies were not valid, etc. etc. etc. Let's be honest here - you have such an attachment to atonal music that you're not willing to even investigate whether it might be harmful or not. And that's sad, because it's your brain that's being harmed by it.

[KhagarBalugrak]

The conclusions of Retallack's study are the following:

1.) Eight hours of ANY ONE SINGLE PITCH per day without interruption always kills plants.

2.) Three hours of intermittent MUSIC (not just single pitches) per day has varying effects.

3.) Three hours of atonal or rock music per day kills plants within 3 weeks

4.) Three hours of tonal classical or jazz music per day causes plants to grow faster than normal.

[KhagarBalugrak]

The conclusions I listed are the exact conclusions of Retallack's studies. Atonal and rock music, as well as any single monotonous pitch played for eight hours a day without interruption, kills plants. Tonal classical music causes them to thrive. Those are the facts, and facts, not opinions, determine truth.

I'm sorry to tell you this, but atonal music has been proven to be destructive. Listen to it at your own risk.

[thelotharingian]

@KhagarBalugrak If you did know so much about atonal music, or music in general, then you would actually realize this piece is not atonal, but mostly in the octatonic scale. Other elements besides harmonic progression give a sense of tonality, though it is tonally weak. If you think the weak tonality makes it inferior, then the music of Palestrina, a composer you mentioned, would also be inferior since his music is modal, and uses similar techniques as this piece to establish tonality.

[KhagarBalugrak]

@thelotharingian, the problem with your analogy is that it ignores that Palestrina's music is BEAUTIFUL and that this piece is UGLY. Octatonality this piece may have, but it's still incredibly ugly and irritating. Modality can be beautiful or ugly depending on how it's used. And in this piece, because it's used in an atonal fashion, it's ugly.

To put it bluntly: superficial similarity to Palestrina doesn't automatically make a piece beautiful.

[thelotharingian]

@KhagarBalugrak Except the quality of beauty is an opinion, and I happen to think this music is beautiful, like Palestrina's, because it is expressive. And yes, there is atonal music that is unexpressive, and I both like and write in all expressive styles. I would highly doubt that this test was performed without bias, and likely they did not test all types of people. Plants are also a bad comparison to humans, as they are much less complex and if anything had issues with the volume.

[KhagarBalugrak]

@thelotharingian, I know my arguments aren't clear sometimes, but they ARE supported by science. Atonal music and rock music kill plants. Tonal classical music makes them thrive. Tonal classical makes people do better on tests, but rock music makes them do much worse. Now, judging from the fact that these results match the studies done on the effect of different types of music on plants, what do you think atonal music will do to the brain?

[thelotharingian]

@KhagarBalugrak @KhagarBalugrak You know, I am willing to bet that the IQ of people who listen to atonal music is much higher. Most of the people I know who listen to atonal music have studied music at the college level.

[thelotharingian]

@KhagarBalugrak Likewise, people who listen to any sort of classical music over rock music would tend to be more educated. It's not the music that causes it, and in either case these would be poorly executed studies. The fact is, you could kill a plant by putting it in a room with oxygen and no CO2; this would not harm a human.

[KhagarBalugrak]

@thelotharingian, the thing is, rock music also kills plants, and harms human brains. Atonal music also harms human brains. Something as fundamental as emotional expression, which is also expressed in music, affects all forms of life on Earth in the same way. Plants treated with love thrive; plants that get yelled at don't do as well as those simply left alone. Atonal music kills plants because it expresses something fundamentally harmful - that's science.

[thelotharingian]

@KhagarBalugrak But the emotions expressed in atonal and rock music, which sometimes happen to be negative, are also expressed in tonal, classical music. These might include anger, sadness, death, grief, the macabre, whatever it may be. These may not be uplifting ideas but, through mimesis, we come to better understand the human condition.

[KhagarBalugrak]

@thelotharingian, It's an admirable goal to better understand the human condition. However, what needs to be expressed isn't plain old anger and sadness, but, as the Vedic literature says, "divine" anger, "divine" sadness, etc. I can't explain it well, but if you read the Vedas, you'll understand. Unfortunately, atonal music fundamentally creates not the "divine" negative emotions, but plain old irritation and boredom - thus, it cannot heighten awareness as it would aim to do.

[KhagarBalugrak]

@thelotharingian, the reason anger and sadness must be expressed in a "divine" manner is so peoples' minds and brains are not harmed when listening to music. Nothing is gained by causing harm to people, for whatever purpose of mimesis or understanding or anything else. Rather, we must heal peoples' minds and hearts, for that alone will allow them to understand, love, and be more aware of the human condition.

[KhagarBalugrak]

@thelotharingian, the difference, for example, between anger and righteous anger is the difference between blind rage and "firmness", the simple refusal to tolerate injustice. Divine sadness is compassion and sympathy for the oppressed, not mere suicidal despair or grief. I hope you see where I'm going with this...

[thelotharingian]

@KhagarBalugrak But once again, it is merely your opinion that similar emotions in atonal music are just bad. Do you have examples of other pieces that you particularly don't like? I might just happen to agree, in some cases. However, you might listen to the piece I wrote on my page called "8:13 PM."

[thelotharingian]

@KhagarBalugrak It is the only video of my own work I've posted and is also by far the most atonal. It actually focuses on sound and not pitch. In this piece though, I'm not even expressing anger or sadness, it's really more impressionistic, and tries to convey the atmosphere of twilight. One of my favorite composers of all time, Scriabin, is known for his late piano sonatas (6-10 and Vers la Flamme) which are often described as atonal, or octatonic-ish.

[thelotharingian]

@KhagarBalugrak Another more extreme example might be sound mass pieces such as Penderecki's Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima. In any of these cases, the music is HIGHLY expressive, and therefore to me quite beautiful. They are very stimulating pieces and to me they express the same divine emotions you mention (I've very well read in Eastern philosophy, I've even read some Hindu texts in my Sanskrit classes).

[thelotharingian]

@KhagarBalugrak Anyway, if you can bear to listen to any of these pieces you should let me know what you think. You should have an open mind--- there is a LOT of atonal crap out there but its not all bad, and not all the same.

[g4thz]

Yeah! Piece got going! If only he wasn't so buried in the stand.

[ravelmeister]

so good...this piece is amazing

[jaschenski]

I love the "balbutiations" in the middle. A++++++ for the viola playing.