The Wealth of the Church (Averea bisericii) 3/5

[danhair]

Doar 0.4 la suta nu ar ajuta la nimic la suma adevarata de care este nevoie. In plus cu Coruption chiar si aia 0.4 ar fi fost taiat in parti si mai mici.

[mariusvfp]

la minutul 12 ,38 se zice zece mil lei noi , transformarea in euro e gresita , mai trebuia pus un zero a coada, da cam 2,300000 euro , adica doua milioane si tre sute de mii de euro

[UnholyOffice]

@mariusvfp Mulțam, am observat și eu, dar nu pot schimba ce-a zis omul :)

În subtitrarea în engleză am adăugat, la vremea când am făcut traducerea, o notă cu suma corectată; în cea românească am lăsat așa cum a zis, fără comentarii -- până-n coadă, românii cam au idee care-i cursul euroiului.

[tommy2toneish]

I hope you could consider yourself lucky to live in an Orthodox land, we are starving for truth, tradition and beauty here

[UnholyOffice]

@tommy2toneish Not exactly -- quite the contrary. The Orthodox church is second in its misogyny, greed and hypocrisy only to the biggest fundamentalist megachurches in the US... and richer than all of them, always wanting more, and using its money and undue influence to spread darkness and drag the whole society back to the dark ages.

If you're looking for truth, a church is the last place to go. And tradition & beauty can be found and appreciated without enslaving the mind.

[tommy2toneish]

@UnholyOffice Where can we turn for Truth? teachers teach what they don't believe, television and radio is driven by profit and scandal, books too are written for profit. Politicians have careers. I'm not Orthodox, my exposure is in writing icons, where I have found beauty and tradition beyond any dream. I've read about Father Seraphim Rose and some of the writings of St. Theophan and a few others. I've been pulled out of the darkness of drugs and alcohol and a meaningless passionate...

[tommy2toneish]

@UnholyOffice ...passionate life by the Church. I can't speak about your experience, only my own, and I know God is with us!

[UnholyOffice]

@tommy2toneish You're making an objective claim here, so you'll have to come with more than just your "experience". After all, who is to say your "experience" is any different from the experience of those who "know" aliens are talking to them through their tooth fillings?

[tommy2toneish]

@UnholyOffice My experience of the God of Christianity is shared by millions of people today and 100 fold more in history, my experience of God is shared with the 65000 years of mankind before me. It may not be "objective", but neither is science it too claims objectivity. Why would all the apostles conspire to become the lowest of low in order to preach a resurrected Christ? Its a shame there are greedy people, but we don't expect ourselves to be perfect either, why expect them to be?

[UnholyOffice]

@tommy2toneish You know what other beliefs millions of people share, and have shared for thousands of years? That the mathematical position of planets and stars determines their fate. That some gestures and words cancel out the laws of nature. That there are special people people who have special powers, like reading minds, flying (levitating), move objects at a distance, etc. That the Earth is flat and the Sun revolves around it (this was true for everyone, until some 400 years ago).

[UnholyOffice]

@tommy2toneish You should realize the truth value of a claim doesn't depend on how many people believe it. Just because people believed something for a long, long time doesn't make it more likely to be true -- quite the contrary.

Also, what people do in support of an idea is not a measure of the truthfulness of the idea, but of how strong they believe in it! And people can and do believe the most insane stuff for little or no good reason whatsoever.

[tommy2toneish]

@UnholyOffice I understand, science progresses because the body of knowledge is tested and grows, it started from observation through the senses and the reasoning of the mind that attempts to understand its surroundings, so of course science today is more true than thousands of years ago. Christianity on the other hand is based on Revelation, not reasoning based on sense perception. They are two different bodies of knowledge pertaining different spheres of reality, one nature, the other God.

[UnholyOffice]

@tommy2toneish Granting that they are two different bodies of knowledge, the problems are in the part where they intersect. In too many cases we have various denominations making claims about nature that either cannot be tested or have been flat out disproved. How wild those claims are varies from one denomination to another and often within. For instance not only are there churches promoting young-earth creationism, but even geocentrism. All from "revelation" a.k.a. "magister dixit".

[tommy2toneish]

@UnholyOffice Yea where they intersect has been confusing for me too, but I heard a podcast from this brilliant theologian, she knew the Church Fathers very well, she said that they believed and she suggested we should too, that Genesis is not a "literal" account of the creation of the world and the fall, eg 6 days, but literally describing that God created the world and that mankind did have the fullness of a relationship with him before we turned away from God.

[UnholyOffice]

@tommy2toneish She must've been speaking of some "church fathers" that are brand new to this world. But why rely on what she says she thinks they said? Go pick up Tertullian, Orinen, Athanasius etc., and read them yourself.

Furthermore, I don't give a dead rat's tail what the "church fathers" thought the Bible meant. For every verse in the book there are at least half a dozen interpretations, often contradictory. For the more debated ones, there are hundreds of interpretations. So...

[tommy2toneish]

@UnholyOffice I've also heard the Bible is not a science textbook and science is not the way to know God, but on the other hand the tradition of psychology, or literally study of the soul, in monastiscism has in my opinion gone beyond where modern pschology is today, inward attentiveness and changing behaviors through changing of thoughts is something psychology at least in the US is just beginning to explore

[UnholyOffice]

@tommy2toneish Changing behavior by changing the thoughts is in no way something new. Very much of our behavior is dictated by our thoughts -- _what_ we think and _how_ we think. But monasticism has really gone nowhere. It doesn't try to understand the human mind, but merely to push it in one specific way -- almost invariably by isolation from the exterior. The ideal of monasticism is a virtual isolation tank. Thanks, but no thanks. (Not to mention the most highly regarded of them were insane.)

[tommy2toneish]

@UnholyOffice but if you saw a beautiful garden you might suspect there was also a brilliant gardner, lol

[UnholyOffice]

@tommy2toneish You know you can only stretch that much a metaphor before it breaks, right?

[tommy2toneish]

I can't speak for everyone but I suspect few if any Christian is blindly believing in Jesus, putting up thousands of prayers to have them all unanswered, reading that makes no sense, holding a crutch that doesn't exist through tribluation, or finding consolation that only lasts as long as a feeling, etc. On the contrary the more prayers that are answered the stronger faith becomes, the more reading the more truth becomes apparent, the greater the tribluation the greater the consolation.

[UnholyOffice]

@tommy2toneish That's merely subjective validation, the same phenomenon that happens with astrology, for instance.

What's more, on top of preferentially remembering "answered" prayers, it's all put in a nonfalsifiable frame: if something happens that seems to indicate the prayer has been answered, say "prayer has been answered". If it doesn't appear to be answered, it's either "that was God's will", or "have more patience", "you didn't pray hard enough" some other way to explain it away.

[tommy2toneish]

I don't know... but what an awe inspiring mystery existence is! be attentive!

[UnholyOffice]

@tommy2toneish Yes, existence is awe inspiring in many aspects of it. But, to put it in Douglas Adams' words, "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"

Mysteries of nature and existence are unraveled more and more each day. Maybe some never will be deciphered. But that still doesn't mean saying "God did it" is a REAL answer, when all it means is actually "I don't know" without the burden of admitting ignorance.

[tommy2toneish]

I am not Romanian, but I see what has happened in the United States and the direction we are going in. It is a self destruction. What replaces our faith? Love of money, depression, anxiety, drug use, coldness, disrespect and ignorance normal. It seems like people barely read anymore other than trashy cheap novels. People are obsessed with pleasure...Beware of what you are asking for when you choose to push the Church out of the State, because the State will try to force it out of the heart

[adamantis4657]

The Holy Orthodox Church is the ONE and ONLY true church. Be it in romania, russia, serbia......

Are u not ashamed to post such a stupid video? Not long time ago people were persecuted, killed, tortured because of being orthodox.

Shame on u! The so-called "state" has stolen sooo much of the orthodox church, destroyed churches, icons, monasteries.....they HAVE TO return all those to the Holy Church.

Even from a seclar point of view this is a crime! Repent and weep...

[doomygloomy1]

@adamantis4657 Are you Romanian ?Cause if you are you're an idiot who knowns no history

BOR worked together with the communist state :)

[adamantis4657]

@doomygloomy1: I think the idiot here is u - how many orthodox people died for their faith. They were persecuted, killed, deported in gulags....etc....

Shame on u! U have learned nothing. Many romanian Elders suffered in prison for preaching the gospel.

NO ONE CAN DESTROY Holy Orthodoxy - NO ONE!

Repent and weep as I stated before until the wrath of God will come over u!

[doomygloomy1]

@adamantis4657 yep,retard detected

BOR and the state were WORKING TOGETHER.That some (and MANY,most were part of the old elite,legionaries etc ) were imprisoned is an entirely diffrent thing.They were rather few compared to the size of BOR

[adamantis4657]

@doomygloomy1:

1.) That is not TRUE - I know personally romanian Elders who suffered for their faith!

2.) And even when would SOMe would have worked with the communists - WHO ARE U to judge them?

3.) Only because SOME have betrayed the ORHTODOX FAITH - does not DESTROY ALL. Even one of the 12 APOSTLES betrayed CHRIST with a kiss - that does not mean that ALL APOSTLES betrayed CHRIST

4.) God will not ask u what they have done - he will ask u what u have done

[adamantis4657]

@doomygloomy1:

5.) Even if they are fornicators, etc....GOD WILL NOT ASK U FOR THEIR SINS - HE WILL ASK U FOR YOUR OWN SINS.

6.) And u need Holy Orthodox to be saved - to fight against Holy Orthodoxy means to be an enemy of God

7.) Are u not ashamed when the whole world converts to Holy Orthodoxy - u orthodox from romania curse the Holy Church?

Are u not ashamed by people form USA, Japan, China, Africa - many of them convert to Holy Orthodoxy.

[ahmedeox]

@doomygloomy1 Lasa-l frate......nu ai ce-i face. E mai greu de cap.

[doomygloomy1]

@ahmedeox sunt cretini,la ce sa te astepti ?

[ahmedeox]

@doomygloomy1 Ai vazut "Romani rataciti in credinta"? Cauta tot youtube. Te sperii. In clip, ignora interviurile cu laurentiu gheorghe. E baiat destept dar la un moment dat, cam acu vreo 4 ani a virat rau catre ortodoxie.

[burner3637]

eu cred ca ortodoxismul face parte din gena poporului roman. cred ca in continuare ar trebui sustinut financiar de stat insa controlat. Sa poata afla toti contribuabilii ce s-a intamplat cu banii lor.

[UnholyOffice]

@burner3637 „Face parte din gena poporului român”? Ce vrei să spui cu asta?

Și nu, nu văd de ce-ar trebui susținut de stat. Cum apartenența la o biserică e voluntară, așa ar trebui să fie și contribuția la cheltuielile bisericii respective. Pe lângă micul amănunt că BOR pare perfect capabilă să se susțină financiar și singură. A, fără sprijinul statului nu mai poate construi 1000 de biserici pe an? Nu le construiește, și basta.