ever since the beginning of the catholic church and christianity, and before that in judaism, genesis has been interpreted literally - and now since a few decades we are supposed to take it figuratively. This is very confusing, I do not believe the holy spirit changed his mind. I say the evolution theory is very weak science without any real proof whatsoever, and I'd rather go with God's word than darwin's word. Softcore "christianity" needs to stop, in all areas
@Zami9000 We have an article available at the "library" tab on catholicdotcom with quotes from early Christian writers showings there was a diversity of opinion on this matter. The article is titled "Creation and Genesis." Please look it up.
@Zami9000 I personally believe it could also be both figurative and literal, in a way. I think there's a possibility that the numbers are correct, but the means by which those numbers were measured were different. Granted, I don't know for a fact, but I do think I've heard this position elsewhere before. And again, it's just an idea.
@Zami9000 I don't believe there is any contradiction between faith in God and evolution. We as catholics don't believe literally in the Old Testement. Remember Christ substituted a tooth for a tooth for turning the other cheek. So he didnt belive it literally either.
Vatican 1: Canon 5: "If anyone does not confess that the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, as regards their whole substance, have been produced by God from nothing...let him be anathema." (Denz 1805)
Vatican 1: "God immediately from the beginning of time fashioned each creature out of nothing, spiritual and corporeal, namely angelic and mundane: and then the human creation, common as it were, composed of both spirit and body" (Denz 1783)
Quote by Iraneus: "How many different ways can I rephrase it? "Partiality" refers to eternal judgment."
Now you are narrowed partiality into judgment whilest before you gave it several meanings & I asked you to rephrase one time--you obviously are not interested in debating or dialoging the biblical facts & truth. As far as how the RCC defines worship, which you call veneration, but the RCC calls worship. NewAdventDotorg -Key phrase "Christian Worship". It is God U must convince-not me!
@7801Croc What specific example of "partiality" are you talking about from Scripture? Makes it kind of hard to respond when you don't explain yourself or point to a specific verse in Scripture. To be honest, dialogue with fundamentalist Christians seems fruitless to me. No matter how many times I tell you there is a difference between venation (dulai) and worship (latria) you won't believe me.
I do not blame you for not posting the other responses for as it is written: For the word of God is living and active {powerful} and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit..." The Truth of god's word is what God uses to save people and like the Pharisees of Jesus day you prevent people from entering by your traditions.
You would not want the Truth to be shown before the eyes of you fellow Catholics.
@7801Croc I have approved all of your posts. The only time I don't let something through is when it either uses profanity or intentional insults. Honest and charitable discussion is welcomed.
Just to address the partiality issue and to clarify. God does everything for His glory; this includes the very supernatural act of salvation, where God does show partiality to whom He chooses to resurrect the spiritually dead to salvation. 1Peter2:9 and in James 1:18, the Scripture says He birthed us, see the Greek for "forth" and here is the text; similar to John 3 as well. "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits...."
@7801Croc This does not address my question at all. Of course Scripture means that God is not partial when it comes to eternal salvation. Where you're point falls flat is in regard to God bestowing some sort of honor on an individual. I gave a few examples: God made the Jews his "chosen People", He chose twelve disciples, he chose Mary to give birth to Jesus. The Bible is ripe with examples.
@Iraneus QUOTE: "This does not address my question at all. "
Then restate or rephrase your question. The example and context of partiality is concerning God's sovereign work of salvation. He does not look at one saint as greater than another. He will use saints in different ways on earth to accomplish His purposes, such as those you mentioned below. But you put Mary, for example, above all angels and all men as a saint. The error is in a lack of understanding the love of God.
@7801Croc How many different ways can I rephrase it? "Partiality" refers to eternal judgment. It does not deter from the fact that God does (and has many times via the examples I have already provided) choose people to stand out at various times in salvation history. Your error is a lack of understanding what the Catholic Church teaches about the veneration of saints.
Great Catholic apologetics 101 for the 21st century, but poor biblical exegesis; so after chapter 11 we begin to take it literally? When do we take Matthew 16 in the context of Matthew 18 and get rid of God showing partiality toward Peter and Mary , when god shows no partiality or was that just figurative and God cannot be trusted?
Wake up Catholics; Jesus condemned the Jewish religious leaders for adding so much legalism that they in effect nullified Scripture - no different!! RUN!
@7801Croc Jesus condemned them for an improper application of the rules. It had nothing to do with volume. In regard to your claim about partiality, there are several different places in Scripture that use the term in different contexts. Depends on which one you are looking at. was Jesus being "partial" when he selected 12 apostles and gave them the authority to bind and loose? Was he being partial when he made the Jews the chosen people?
Theological Liberalism triumphs! The opinions offered by Tim would have been flatly denounced by St. Pope Pius X as heresy. Pope Pius X is canonized and Tim isn't. If Genesis is "figurative" are we going to be consistent on it? Is "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" likewise "figurative"? If not, why not from a purely consistent exegetical basis? The Church has *always* understood Gensis 1-11 to be historical. Period.
@ytuseruber What does Pius X being canonized have to do with anything? Saint Iraneus, St. Justin Martyr, Saint Cyprian...ALL of them are also canonized Saints and ALL of them believed in a figurative interpretation of the first eleven chapters of Genesis. Tim didn't say in the video that you have to believe it is figurative. What he said is that you can believe either/or and still be a Catholic in good standing.
@Iraneus "Further, according to their fictitious opinions, the literal sense of Holy Scripture and its explanation, carefully worked out under the Church's vigilance by so many great exegetes, should yield now to a new exegesis, which they are pleased to call symbolic or spiritual." Popy Pius XII Humani Generis 23.
@ytuseruber Great quote taken out of context. In that same document, Pope Pius XII also goes on to say this about the interpretation of Scripture and the use of human reason: "Of course this philosophy deals with much that neither directly nor indirectly touches faith or morals, and which consequently the Church leaves to the free discussion of experts."
Tim did not say that "Genesis is figurative". God creating the world and the universe is a matter of fact and history, but no Catholic is required or obligated to belive that God created it all in six literal days (the number six may be symbolic). We are required to belive that Adam and Eve were real people and that the Fall is a historical event, but where a person's age is concerned in the Book of Genesis, e.g. Methusalah, Catholics are free to assume the figure is literal or symbolic.
St. Augstine thought a literal interpretation was an insult to God because he took 6 days and even rested on the 7th....I agree with him
MegaWallaceR 4 months ago
ever since the beginning of the catholic church and christianity, and before that in judaism, genesis has been interpreted literally - and now since a few decades we are supposed to take it figuratively. This is very confusing, I do not believe the holy spirit changed his mind. I say the evolution theory is very weak science without any real proof whatsoever, and I'd rather go with God's word than darwin's word. Softcore "christianity" needs to stop, in all areas
Zami9000 8 months ago
@Zami9000 We have an article available at the "library" tab on catholicdotcom with quotes from early Christian writers showings there was a diversity of opinion on this matter. The article is titled "Creation and Genesis." Please look it up.
catholiccom 8 months ago 11
@catholiccom thanks I'll have a look at it
Zami9000 8 months ago
@Zami9000 I personally believe it could also be both figurative and literal, in a way. I think there's a possibility that the numbers are correct, but the means by which those numbers were measured were different. Granted, I don't know for a fact, but I do think I've heard this position elsewhere before. And again, it's just an idea.
bzkoss236 7 months ago
@Zami9000 I don't believe there is any contradiction between faith in God and evolution. We as catholics don't believe literally in the Old Testement. Remember Christ substituted a tooth for a tooth for turning the other cheek. So he didnt belive it literally either.
22grena 5 months ago
@Zami9000 I dont think Tim is advocating evolution here.
mjeffords85 3 weeks ago
Vatican 1: Canon 5: "If anyone does not confess that the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, as regards their whole substance, have been produced by God from nothing...let him be anathema." (Denz 1805)
Vatican 1: "God immediately from the beginning of time fashioned each creature out of nothing, spiritual and corporeal, namely angelic and mundane: and then the human creation, common as it were, composed of both spirit and body" (Denz 1783)
ultimouomo11 9 months ago 2
Quote by Iraneus: "How many different ways can I rephrase it? "Partiality" refers to eternal judgment."
Now you are narrowed partiality into judgment whilest before you gave it several meanings & I asked you to rephrase one time--you obviously are not interested in debating or dialoging the biblical facts & truth. As far as how the RCC defines worship, which you call veneration, but the RCC calls worship. NewAdventDotorg -Key phrase "Christian Worship". It is God U must convince-not me!
7801Croc 10 months ago
@7801Croc What specific example of "partiality" are you talking about from Scripture? Makes it kind of hard to respond when you don't explain yourself or point to a specific verse in Scripture. To be honest, dialogue with fundamentalist Christians seems fruitless to me. No matter how many times I tell you there is a difference between venation (dulai) and worship (latria) you won't believe me.
Iraneus 10 months ago
I do not blame you for not posting the other responses for as it is written: For the word of God is living and active {powerful} and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit..." The Truth of god's word is what God uses to save people and like the Pharisees of Jesus day you prevent people from entering by your traditions.
You would not want the Truth to be shown before the eyes of you fellow Catholics.
7801Croc 10 months ago
@7801Croc I have approved all of your posts. The only time I don't let something through is when it either uses profanity or intentional insults. Honest and charitable discussion is welcomed.
catholiccom 10 months ago 3
Just to address the partiality issue and to clarify. God does everything for His glory; this includes the very supernatural act of salvation, where God does show partiality to whom He chooses to resurrect the spiritually dead to salvation. 1Peter2:9 and in James 1:18, the Scripture says He birthed us, see the Greek for "forth" and here is the text; similar to John 3 as well. "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits...."
7801Croc 10 months ago
@7801Croc This does not address my question at all. Of course Scripture means that God is not partial when it comes to eternal salvation. Where you're point falls flat is in regard to God bestowing some sort of honor on an individual. I gave a few examples: God made the Jews his "chosen People", He chose twelve disciples, he chose Mary to give birth to Jesus. The Bible is ripe with examples.
Iraneus 10 months ago
@Iraneus QUOTE: "This does not address my question at all. "
Then restate or rephrase your question. The example and context of partiality is concerning God's sovereign work of salvation. He does not look at one saint as greater than another. He will use saints in different ways on earth to accomplish His purposes, such as those you mentioned below. But you put Mary, for example, above all angels and all men as a saint. The error is in a lack of understanding the love of God.
7801Croc 10 months ago
@7801Croc How many different ways can I rephrase it? "Partiality" refers to eternal judgment. It does not deter from the fact that God does (and has many times via the examples I have already provided) choose people to stand out at various times in salvation history. Your error is a lack of understanding what the Catholic Church teaches about the veneration of saints.
Iraneus 10 months ago
Great Catholic apologetics 101 for the 21st century, but poor biblical exegesis; so after chapter 11 we begin to take it literally? When do we take Matthew 16 in the context of Matthew 18 and get rid of God showing partiality toward Peter and Mary , when god shows no partiality or was that just figurative and God cannot be trusted?
Wake up Catholics; Jesus condemned the Jewish religious leaders for adding so much legalism that they in effect nullified Scripture - no different!! RUN!
7801Croc 10 months ago
@7801Croc Jesus condemned them for an improper application of the rules. It had nothing to do with volume. In regard to your claim about partiality, there are several different places in Scripture that use the term in different contexts. Depends on which one you are looking at. was Jesus being "partial" when he selected 12 apostles and gave them the authority to bind and loose? Was he being partial when he made the Jews the chosen people?
Iraneus 10 months ago
@Iraneus
I wanted to take a moment to thank you for your comments & questions; I appreciate the charitable response.
7801Croc 10 months ago
Great apologist!!! What the Genesis is trying to teach us is not how God created the world and human beings but who created it all.
bteto1 1 year ago
Theological Liberalism triumphs! The opinions offered by Tim would have been flatly denounced by St. Pope Pius X as heresy. Pope Pius X is canonized and Tim isn't. If Genesis is "figurative" are we going to be consistent on it? Is "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" likewise "figurative"? If not, why not from a purely consistent exegetical basis? The Church has *always* understood Gensis 1-11 to be historical. Period.
ytuseruber 1 year ago
@ytuseruber What does Pius X being canonized have to do with anything? Saint Iraneus, St. Justin Martyr, Saint Cyprian...ALL of them are also canonized Saints and ALL of them believed in a figurative interpretation of the first eleven chapters of Genesis. Tim didn't say in the video that you have to believe it is figurative. What he said is that you can believe either/or and still be a Catholic in good standing.
Iraneus 1 year ago
@Iraneus "Further, according to their fictitious opinions, the literal sense of Holy Scripture and its explanation, carefully worked out under the Church's vigilance by so many great exegetes, should yield now to a new exegesis, which they are pleased to call symbolic or spiritual." Popy Pius XII Humani Generis 23.
ytuseruber 1 year ago
@ytuseruber Great quote taken out of context. In that same document, Pope Pius XII also goes on to say this about the interpretation of Scripture and the use of human reason: "Of course this philosophy deals with much that neither directly nor indirectly touches faith or morals, and which consequently the Church leaves to the free discussion of experts."
Iraneus 1 year ago
Tim did not say that "Genesis is figurative". God creating the world and the universe is a matter of fact and history, but no Catholic is required or obligated to belive that God created it all in six literal days (the number six may be symbolic). We are required to belive that Adam and Eve were real people and that the Fall is a historical event, but where a person's age is concerned in the Book of Genesis, e.g. Methusalah, Catholics are free to assume the figure is literal or symbolic.
SteveSpitz1981 1 year ago
@SteveSpitz1981 But do catholic belive everything was created in its present form -- ie human were created exactly as we are now ( ie didnt evolve)
badpanda84 1 year ago
I hope someday I can be as eloquent and smart about theology as Tim Staples! He is one of my favorites!
03nataflea 1 year ago