Mtoto, Reference Point and Triptych 1987

[macvatu]

Reference Point and Steve Cauthen were my favourites and sometimes I wished Steve would hold him up for a final burst for the post. Bust that wasn't the American's way of riding over here - he was a "catch me if you can" type of jocket, and pulled off lots of spectacular wins in his inimitable style, thank's Steve !!

[mikerainham]

Both great or almost great horses and mtoto was better the following year

[sigmondball]

brilliant stars ....... rip Mtoto ...rip all......sadly missed

[davross67]

People forget the context of this. Mtoto was a ''people's champion'' - I was certainly swept along and Mtoto is one of my all time favourite horses. The issue was that Mtoto was a handicapper (a bit like Harbinger years later) that rose from those humble origins to beating the very best - 'Mouse' Roberts was also a punters' favourite. No true fan of Mtoto would claim superiority over the likes of DB, STS etc, but the journey made the legend of the horse .....!

[MeMeMeMeMeMeMeMeAndU]

I loved Mtoto. He was fast, brave and has stunning acceleration. I remember i had a bet on him in this race ante post and got 8/1. He won a string of group 1's after this and was terribly unlucky to lose the arc.

People always tend to forget about Reference Point but he was a really great horse too. He won the Derby despite not being fully fit after an injury and he ran Mtoto very close in this race over a distance 2 furlongs short of his best. He was as tough as they come & a great battler

[cpulls]

Mtoto is my horses dad and what a great great horse to remember ,,, just like mine one of the best xxx

[cpulls]

Mtoto is my horses day and what a great great horse to remember ,,, just like mine one of the best xxx

[mallafets]

DB from memory beat Tryptich 4length in this race the previous year very quite easily and would see off Mtoto over any distance. While Mtoto was top class i dont think he would of beat RP over 1m4f. !m2f was little short for RP.

[SeaJack999]

Mtoto is my horses grandad (Y)

andd,,CloudStrife2014 do you have any vids of you horse so ii could see him/her,, just looking up my horses family youu see :DD

[CloudStrife2014]

@SeaJack999 unfortunately my horse didn't do well on the racetrack, I guess he took after his mother, being a lazy horse and all :P though he won a few races when he was 3 and 4. I don't have any videos of him racing, but I do have a video I made for him on my channel, just go and watch, it's the only video I uploaded myself, so it will be easy to find. :)

[CloudStrife2014]

@SeaJack999 I totally understand you, I've searched everything about my horse, his family, sisters/brothers, grandparents where he was born etc etc. I found quite a lot. and I also found out that Secretariat is my horses great great granddad on his mothers side :D I was really shocked at first. :)

[CloudStrife2014]

Also love that Michael not ONCE use the whip on Mtoto, but everyone else did :) love that ^^,

[CloudStrife2014]

Love the way Mtoto accelerates at the very end. He really is a Legend. My horses dad :) I'm so proud.

It's amazing how he's the last horse at the beginning and when coming near the finish he comes first =) Amazing.

[gre812u]

He is your horses dad? Did I hear this right?

WOW Mtoto is my favorite flat horse of all time & a complete legend. What is your horses name?

If he is half as good then my word

[CloudStrife2014]

Yup :) My horses name is Dance To Dawn. he was orn 1994. you can find his pedigree and look for yourself :) I'm really proud of my baby's daddy ^^, he is my favorite racehorse too :)

[147ard]

Triptych really had to race against such legends in 86/87, and she still shone, great race mare.

[jafeica]

@147ard The horse who got me interested in racing when she beat the boys in the Irish 2000Guineas. A great mare with many quirks, which she really showed in her final Coronation Cup win, it's a real shame she died before she could produce any offspring.

[Newworldman66]

Expectations for STS seem sky high so anything less than a convincing win would surely be seen as disappointing.

Oxx and Kinane, however, seem a bit concerned about the size of the field, I think they were hoping it would just be 2 pacemakers and a non stayer.

I'll be cheering on Conduit but it'll probably need a lifetime best from him to win and SMS has never won the Arc. I don't he's received enough credit for a Leger, BC and KG winner.

[21shergar]

Agree entirely about Stoute and Conduit, the latter being my favourite for second in the Arc.

[21shergar]

Fascinating that there's an STS debate on a page featuring a performer who would have tested STS fully. I always rate the 1988 Arc in the same category as the 1986 Derby: the best horse didn't (quite)win. It happens now and then in many-runner races and could happen to STS. With all these football metaphors I can't help remembering Rosenthal's miss for Liverpool when faced with an open goal two yards out. Conversely I think STS will be victorious, but not so as to convince all of his greatness.

[Newworldman66]

I reckon STS would have his hands full with any of the first 3 here as imo they're all better than anything he's faced so far or will face in the Arc.

[21shergar]

You could say that's rather unlucky for the colt, as even a convincing win will not be enough to bring true religion to the agnostics.

Nevertheless, I'll be cheering STS along on Sunday in a way that I haven't felt drawn to a top performer for years, perhaps even since Lammtarra. 14 years is a long wait and I'm going to enjoy it.

Or I'll be crying into my beer.

[Newworldman66]

It's lucky and unlucky at the same time. Lucky in the respect that with moderate opposition he can win with greater ease but unlucky in the respect that his ratings will suffer.

[147ard]

STS would really have to produce more to beat Mtoto, his Arc win today was top class, but i think it was against nothing special. But STS is probably gonna get a 142 timeform rating.

[21shergar]

This is the difficulty history will throw at this colt: the question of the quality of the opposition. In the end he can only beat what's thrown at him. I thought his turn of foot today was first rate, especially after he settled so unsatisfactorily. I'll not complain at 142, but those question marks will last forever.

[Newworldman66]

21shergar, I'm bit surprised you'd have been agreeable to a 142 rating. Timeform gave him just a rating 129 for his Arc performance.

[21shergar]

Blinded by the moment, I fear, NWM. Although I think STS has a 142 in him, we won't see it - and therein lies the source of the debate for years to come. Having said that, I can't recall another horse running so unsatisfactorily for the first half mile and still winning a top grade event, let alone an Arc; but I accept that is not how ratings work.

While acknowledging the reasoning behind your agnosticism, personally I can't help but now place STS in the category of "great".

[Newworldman66]

Even his current ratings are too high as they're partly based on the ratings of F&G which are a few lbs more than they should be imo.

I think STS may well have a 140 handicap performance in him but we're not likely to see it as the opposition is too weak.

I think there's quite a high degree of subjectivity in Timeform's 140 rating of STS.

[147ard]

I thought STS received 131 for the arc, i think it was STS best performance.

[Newworldman66]

He received a handicap rating of 131 and a Timeform rating of 129 for his Arc effort which I also think was his best performance 147ard.

His flawed 135 handicap and 140 Timeform ratings were given after the ICS and were partly based on the runner up F&G being a high class horse which he clearly isn't.

Timeform had suggested STS was on course for a likely 136 rating but decided to award him imo an undeserved 140 - undeserved as he has never performed any where close to that mark.

[beckks11]

mtoto is my horses dad :)

[Tbezz24]

the late 80's definately saw some of the greatest horse racing of all time in terms of competition based... some of these horses are juts phenomenal

the only year i can think of to rival the 86/87 horses was 1996.. which was a global racing year

as for all this timeform talk.. i think RP deserves a higher timeform than mtoto simply because RP excelled at a much larger range of races than Mtoto. RP won races from 8f - 16f.. using guts the entire way.. matter of opinion though

[Tbezz24]

guts meaning that he was a front runner as opposed to sit and sprinting

[funceeka]

Don't see many races of this calibre these days

[147ard]

Dancing Brave would have his hands full beating these two with record pace on.

[jmdm1957]

At last 147,you are now noticing ,other very good horses,at that time,but that would have been the race of that decade for me Brave ,mtoto,and RP.

[147ard]

Yes i notice other very good horses but the brave was the horse of the decade, i'm sure you will agree, DB was a world beater at a mile, 1m 2f and 1m 4f, and theres no doubt he would of been top class at 6 and 7f, DB was one of a kind. There has never been a horse to have that range of ability apart from BG, but he was far from top class at 1m4f.

[sandcastlejim]

i'm on this clip. 2 furlongs out. backed the winner!

[tukoramerez]

great comment Shaffi 1 / sums up MTOTO perfectly !

[21shergar]

Seconded.

[shaffi1]

This trip was probably a bit sharp for RP but still a hell of a run by Mtoto, who improved dramatically from 3 to 4 as did his sire Busted. His grandsire Crepello another damned good horse, if i remember also had leg problems which cost him a triple crown that was at his mercy. As for Mtoto he was certainly a prizefighter, in a head to head with him you would lose, he was uncompromising and unrelenting which was his forte.

[greggles1902]

RF was my first fav horse. i was taking my o levels when he won the derby. the day before the derby i had a 5p f/c yankee on the dogs. the big white dog sheets back then recomended a daily yankee. 3 f/c's came up. i thought id get £50...got £512. nearly had a heart attack. put £400 on RF at 7/4...longest final furlong in history. didnt breath and all i could hear was my heartbeat

[tukoramerez]

to Spaceweed Fair comment but that is why there will always be bookmakers / we all know that on the clock the great Dancing Brave was supersonic but the unknown factor is courage and that is what wins real battles, Dancing Brave had the engine and pedigree and perhaps he was unbeatable but if races were decided on that alone there would be no point racing, DB was a great 3 yr old but he didn`t race as a 4 and 5 yr old and thats another reason to respect MTOTO who I believe improved with age !

[Spaceweed10]

I absolutely respect Mtoto, and agree that he was a tremendous horse over 10f.

The comparison to Dancing Brave is what bothers me, as you only have to glance at their respective records to understand that they can't be compared.

Dancing Brave is one of the outstanding racehorses of any era - some would argue he is the best ever - whereas Mtoto wasn't considered good enough to race against him, even though they were sired in the same year.

The defence rests.

[december2364]

In the DB - Mtoto debate, then I swing towards DB. However did Mtoto not have problems with his hooves as a 3-Y-o and that's why he wasn't able to tackle DB and Sharastani in the Classics and the other G1 races?

[cfcdes67]

i respect your views on dancing brave but the fact remains that he was beaten in the two most important races of his life. it may also be of interest to note that Prince Khallid Abdoullha is on record as saying that Zaffonic is the best miler he owned..please note miler.

[Spaceweed10]

Hmm, I disagree on 'importance' here. In my opinion the most important middle distance race in the calendar, is the Arc.

[tukoramerez]

MTOTO like his sire kept improving with age, MTOTO won the hearts of spectaitors because of his unburstable heart and courage and although his opponents often had better breeding , MTOTO hadn`t read the script..I don`t know if he could of beaten DANCING BRAVE but he wouldn`t of gone down without a serious fight and although DB was fast on the clock MTOTO could dig very deep when asked and thats why he was often underestimated, He was a real character and deserves his place amoung the greats!!

[Spaceweed10]

A decent horse, but not a 'great' horse. To compare Mtoto to Dancing Brave is frankly, ludicrous.

[21shergar]

A bold statement, Spaceweed. I can certainly understand why some would prefer DB to Mtoto, but I do not stand alone amongst YouTube contributors in rating Mtoto the best ever over 10: check out "Mtoto Unfuwain". I most certainly contend that the adjective "ludicrous" has no place in the comparison.

Of all time machine races Mtoto v DB over 10 is the contest I'd most like to see; although I'd be a little concerned that Pebbles might sweep past both at the death. Those unpredictable women!

[Spaceweed10]

'Ludicrous' was used, because it is the only word I can think of to describe how unjust that comparison is.

Craven Stakes, 2000 Guineas, Eclipse, King George VI & Arc - If Stevie Wonder had ridden him in the Derby, he would have won that too. European Horse of the Year, and rated 140 by Timeform. All this as a 3yr old who was sired in the same year as Mtoto.

He won more money in 1986 - before he was retired to stud - than Mtoto won in his entire career.

Over to you ;)

[21shergar]

You should get together with 147ard. For the record, I also think DB is totally fantastic.... but to come back at you.

Prince of Wales Stakes (x2), Eclipse (x2). King George VI and narrow 2nd in Arc (as close as DB got to Sharastani in the Derby) and (I think I'm correct in saying) Horse of the Year 1988.

Im my humble opinion that removes any possibility of a "ludicrous" comparison.

It's extraordinary how wide the divide can be in racing opinion. Oh, for that time machine!

[Spaceweed10]

Aye, the beauty of Horse Racing are the opinions it arouses.

I just watched the Derby and Arc of '86 again, and they are just fabulous memories. For me, the Arc performance by DB was just the greatest middle distance performance I have 'ever' seen. Truly amazing acceleration of an extremely fast pace, which broke the track record.

Only one word for that horse - Awesome ;)

[21shergar]

Awesome - no doubt.

[147ard]

What was wrong with Mtoto in 86 and did he race.

[21shergar]

Mtoto had one run as a juvenile, finishing third in a 7f maiden at Yarmouth. Afterwards it was found that he had chipped a bone in his near hind joint; unfortunate, as he had been entered in top class two year old races such as the Royal Lodge. His second outing was at three when he won a 10f maiden at Haydock. He ran 6 times at 3. During his third year he had begun to have problems with his feet. He was sent to Ireland and recovered well, finding peat underfoot particularly beneficial.

[ballshavins1234]

@tukoramerez brilliant horse,but it aint even close to dancing brave.

[147ard]

Dawn Run and Dancing Brave.

[21shergar]

Great choice, Max. Picking a great racing year from the 1980s is like trying to decide whether Cheryl Ladd, Jaclyn Smith, Farrah Fawcett or Kate Jackson was the most attractive Charlie's Angel.

Rather like 1986 Jaclyn Smith edges ahead for me.

[147ard]

A few names im a bit unsure there but i get the idea. My fave races in the 80's are this one, last tycoon in the breeder's cup, DB in the arc and Dawn run in the gold cup.

[21shergar]

I fear I'm showing my age with the Charlie's Angels reference. (Oooh! That Jaclyn Smith!)

The races you mention are just tremendous, so as I say, overall 1986 is on top. But for me the 1987 Eclipse is the best race (not performance) I've ever seen. It gives me goose bumps. My view is that Reference Point was truly brilliant and at the top of his game on Eclipse day. For Mtoto to beat him is what takes the Monster to the top of the ten furlong tree. Others on YouTube agree: Timeform does not!

[147ard]

Another fave is Miesque in the breeders cup mile in 87 when she broke the track record, her turn of foot was in a league with the Brave.

[december2364]

I think I'm a 1984 - Cheryl Ladd kind of guy.

[21shergar]

Tidy dual choice, december.

[Newworldman66]

For me it's 1986 and Kate Jackson!

[21shergar]

Ms Jackson makes you Sea the Stars, NWM?

[Newworldman66]

I'm seeing stars from one or two contributors because I'm not 'on message' with STS!

[21shergar]

I've noticed, NWM. I'm not as skeptical as you after the ICS, but I certainly believe he needs the Arc to secure his place in history as a true great.

I'm just pleased that after so many years we're even talking about potentially such high standing.

[Newworldman66]

STS is a fine horse but his Timeform rating is a bit premature imo. It's pity there isn't a decent older 10f horse to measure him by as Oxx seems keen to keep him to this trip as Bolger did with NA last year.

Although my STS comments are in the minority I'm far from alone as plenty of others have expressed the same views on other racing forums.

[21shergar]

I must say, NWM, that an Mtoto-like older horse challenger to STS would be a good test. But for me I see something in STS suggesting at a subjective level that he's right up there with the greats. I only hope that Oxx places him so that the colt can be vindicated, thereby allowing a larger proportion of racing fans to accept his greatness by virtue of indisputable objective evidence, rather than leaving a subjective argument to fester over many years ahead.

[Newworldman66]

Fair comment 21shergar. Hopefully Oxx will run him in the Arc and not swerve it like he did the KG. Providing the going is no worse than soft he really should take his chance as his performance in the ICS was visually his most impressive and clearly showed that he acts on ground with cut in it.

However, Oxx has so far, imo, been far too cautious with STS. He could therefore opt for the CS where he'd probably only have Twice Over to beat. What an anticlimax that would be!

[ComteLafon]

You don't think that the York International was more of a challenge than the King George?? I didn't get the impression of them ducking anything.  But history suggests the King George usually comes too quickly after the Eclipse for a 3-year-old.

[Newworldman66]

So with a 21 day gap the Eclipse and KG are too close together for a 3 yr old? Well DB handled the Eclipse and KG pretty well and some people seem to think STS is the better horse so why couldn't he?

But an 18 day gap between the Juddmonte and the ICS is ok????

And you reckon the 10f Juddmonte against 3 opponents (2 pacemakers and 1 doubtful stayer) is more of a challenge than the KG over 12f with 9 mostly older opponents?????

[21shergar]

Just interested, NWM, in what would convert you to an STS believer, rather than a skeptic. If I'm interpreting your comments correctly, you are an STS fan already, but haven't yet accorded him the epithet "great" in your own mind.

It may be that a relatively weak Arc field (as appears to be likely in 2009) combined with STS' narrow winning style mean that it will be just about impossible for the colt to impress you sufficiently. Fair comment?

I think the STS debate will run for decades.

[Newworldman66]

I like to think I'm a STS agnostic rather than a sceptic 21shergar! He's clearly a high class horse and the best 3 yr old but I'm dubious of the quality of AOB's 3 yr olds and missing the KG and ID with flimsy excuses is poor imo.

Official handicap ratings have STS 135, F&G 129, Conduit 125 and the rest 120-122. So looks like a penalty kick!

If he can maintain his 5.5l margin over Conduit, and Conduit beats everything else in an end to end gallop that would be an impressive performance.

[21shergar]

So are we in for a John Terry moment? It's been said before that the Arc has consigned to the dustbin many a betting slip filled in a with a stone cold certainty.

But in this case it would appear that not only is it a penalty, but there's also no goalkeeper.

I think STS is likely to win by a relatively narrow margin leaving the debate to run and run? At least that would mean another name to add to the list of top class race horses to be the subject of argument in the coming decades.

[Newworldman66]

If the ratings are any where near accurate STS should win easily as he's a stone clear of most of the field. Should he just scrape home or be beaten then he'll have to be re-rated.

That said I still think it's possible he could be a NR if they over water the course. Oxx has said any soft in the official going and he won't run.

[ComteLafon]

just to point out, that if not actually a penalty kick, Generous had a direct free kick outside the box but didn't even hit the ball. Some horses have, tragically, failed to reproduce their proper form in the Arc. But Timeform - whose opinion I like but don't slavishly follow - reckon Generous was one of the greats. So one duff run does not a bad horse make.

However, is a rating not judged on a horse's best form over his best distance? StS's Arc may not affect his rating if so.

[Newworldman66]

You've read my comment with the wrong inflection ComteLafon.

[ComteLafon]

"Should he just scrape home or be beaten then he'll have to be re-rated."

Er. what have I misinterpreted there? Generous's rating wasn't affected by a poor run in the Arc. but you're suggesting that StS's will be.

Happy to be corrected on this, but you haven't said exactly how I've misunderstood what you said.

[Newworldman66]

With all my previous comments where I've questioned STS's rating and the opposition he's beaten surely you can see I don't think it's a penalty kick!!!!

[ComteLafon]

but what I'm saying is that his rating isn't based on his form over 12 furlongs. So whatever he does in the Arc shouldn't affect that rating (unless he improves on all previous form, which I doubt - he's not a true 12f horse). If he fluffs it, it will affect his reputation, like it did Generous. Sorry, I'm not trying to get into an argument here. But the tiresome debate recently about Dancing Brave is an argument about form versus 'greatness'. Which are two different things.

[Newworldman66]

I think his rating is partly on what he might be rather than what he's done. I reckon Timeform and the official handicappers fully expect him to produce a scintillating performance in the Arc. His current rating is only provisional and could be reduced should STS and/or the horses he's already beaten turn out to be not as good as their current ratings indicate.

[sheedysvsign]

There will never be another era for racing either flat or NH ! brilliant horses ,jockeys

and trainers and never to be forgotten race's.

[147ard]

The finest year of the 80's was the stamina of Dawn run and the speed of Dancing brave in 86.

[jmdm1957]

God, I wish they could have had a rematch over 12 furlongs, this argument to me is very simalar to 1971

[147ard]

I wish dancing brave stayed in training in 87, if he was in this race it would not just of been a very good race, but one of the greatest, reference point setting a suicidal pace with mtoto and dancing brave challenging, i can only dream on.

[21shergar]

Too right, Max. And Pebbles two years previously, Nashwan two years later: golden times.

[21shergar]

Why is it that RP never seems to get the credit he deserves: he was out of the top drawer? To my mind this race rivals the 1975 King George for Race of the Century. You could argue the opposition wasn't as good (I don't buy that), but Tryptych was a class performer too.

My point, of course, is that this means that Mtoto was the real deal. Over 10, the best. This race is exhilaration on hooves. Timeform simply has it wrong. How on earth can RP be rated above the Monster? It's not possible.

[Kelt1c71]

It's amazing how Timeform always invariably to seem gets it "wrong" when their figures don't tally with individuals' assessment of their own favourite horses.

I backed Reference Point for the Derby and St. Leger. Yes, he was a good horse; a resolute galloper, who could burn off his opponents, but he wasn't exceptional - and neither was Mtoto ! Another good horse, but again, not exceptional by any means.

[21shergar]

It's amazing how individuals always invariably seem to get it "wrong" when their figures don't tally with Timeform's assessment of its own favourites.

Truth is, Mr Cowell, that I absolutely defend your right to your opinion, but in these particular cases disagree with you.

Isn't debate great!?

[Kelt1c71]

Eh, that's Mr Keltic to you.

I wish I had Mr Cowell's money. Though to be fair, I have more exquiste musical tastes than he does - Chin, chin old bean.

[terbine13]

Reference Point was a belter and I originally thought the 10 furlong trip was way too short but I am convinced that in fact Reffers was an ace at this distance which is why the Monster is the best 10 furlong horse bar none

[tigerboy1966]

Describing Triptych as a class performer is like saying that Osama bin Laden is a bit of a scallywag. NINE group one wins in Europe, all in top races against the best opposition!

She was a legend, and one of my all time favourites (as if you couldn't guess).

The other interesting point is whether Dancing Brave would have been rated quite so highly if Mtoto's hooves hadn't fallen to bits in his 3-y-o campaign.

As for unfairly forgotten and underrated horses, what about Pentire?

[21shergar]

It really is cheering to realise that there are so many people out there, including your goodself, Big Cat Man, who acknowledge the brilliance that was Mtoto. As you say, Triptych was more than a class performer, as was the great RP - so how can Timeform rate RP above the Monster?

Your comment about 1986 is fascinating. Imagine the two greatest turn of foot merchants ever battling it out in the 10 and 12 furlong group 1s. Ooh! It's too much for my imagination to cope with.

[tigerboy1966]

The other strange thing about Mtoto, is that none of the commentators bothered to pronounce his name properly- it was either "Umtoto" or (according to Peter O'Sullevan) "Muh-toto". Never saw the problem myself as his name is pronounced exactly as spelled. Isn't it the Swahili word for "boy"?

I think that he was underrated because of the Arc defeat to Tony Bin, who was a good horse, but not a great one. Mtoto would have won with a better ride.

I would have rated him at around 136.

[jmdm1957]

a great horse but she was slammed by my fav fillie in the oakes oh so sharp by 6 kengths.

[terbine13]

starting to rethink this performance shergar, Mtoto should not be denied his place in the pantheon of greats and Reference Point had Tryptych behind him which probably suggests he was top notch at this trip but came up against 'The Monster'!!!

[terbine13]

I'm with december on this one, Eclipse too sharp for Reference Point and his King George was his best...Mtoto wouldn't have beaten him at a mile and a half..why didn't Mtoto run in the King George that year?

[december2364]

I also have serious doubts that Mtoto would have beaten Reference point over a mile and half. There's not many horses that would have lived with Reference Point's high-speed front running - I mean, do you sit back, conserve your mount and risk giving him an unassailable lead, or do you try to live with him and risk being burned out by the final furlong (as many were).

[21shergar]

Beg to differ, terbine. Mtoto will always be underrated. Turn of foot merchants are difficult to judge, but Mtoto was so good. 1.5 miles was not beyond him, even against the best. As ever, we'll never know,

[55whitedove]

well if it's any consolation shergar, I rate Mtoto very highly but in my opinion compared to the very best at a mile and a half, he just falls short, only just though, but he was a monster at a mile and a quarter and his class would have enabled him to see out the longer trip enough to trouble the very best..we'll never know for sure as you say

[21shergar]

Who are you? ....Only kidding, terbine: you've forgotten to log on. Compliments to Mrs terbine-whitedove?

[jnewco81]

I used to live on Mtoto's stud farm, lovely horse

[RobinCarmody]

Vividly remember the day of this race ... though I think I might have been carsick as I was coming back home to see it ...

[seanneve]

Always had a soft spot for Reference Point. Won me a few quid on my first Derby bet!

[21shergar]

The 1987 Eclipse was arguably Reference Point's best performance. Coming so close to the great Mtoto was a superb effort.

[december2364]

The Eclipse was just a little bit too sharp for Reference Point, but he made up for it by taking the King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes and the St Leger.

[21shergar]

Nevertheless, Reference Point's performance here was, I think, his best ever. Mtoto's place in the pantheon of greats should not be denied. He and Dancing Brave were on a par for capacity to up the pace.

[december2364]

Actually I would probably say that Reference Point's best performance that year was in the Diamond Stakes. If I had been Cecil though, I would have missed the Eclipse and went for the Irish Derby instead, where I have no doubt he would have brushed aside Sir Harry Lewis again. Can you remember why Mtoto missed that year's King George?

[SlugThumper]

As the betting showed, we didn't realise how good Mtoto was at the time. He went on to be a very good horse. However, Henry Cecil did say that he hadn't pushed Reference Point in training as hard as he could, and that he'd underrated Mtoto. Cecil was confident that Reference Point would win the King George.

Racing fans were spoilt in 86/87. We had Dancing Brave, Reference Point, Mtoto and Indian Skimmer. Great years!

[21shergar]

No kidding, pest controller. Truly wonderful flat racing years - with Nashwan just around the corner too.

[sleeplessinsale]

Better candidate for Race of the Century for me than Grundy & Bustino.

[SlugThumper]

In the end it all comes down to opinions but I like Dancing Brave's Arc win in 86.

[21shergar]

I think DB's Arc was a stunning victory, which is a little different from a great race.

[21shergar]

Whenever I feel down I watch the 1986 Arc - truly stupendous. DB was absolutely magnificent. But over 10 Mtoto was King! Cauthen was bemused after the 1987 Eclipse: he couldn't understand how he'd been beaten. Methinks RP was ready, but just not good enough on the day.

[terbine13]

..and it wasn't just his sheer acceleration as Julian Wilson remarked,that won him the race, that is what got Mtoto upsides Reference Point yes, but it was that toughness and durability evident in true champions that carried Mtoto past his opponent! In Reference Point, Cauthen must have had an inkling he was on a colt who was capable of beating the best and set off confidently at a pace he thought nothing else could live with...

[21shergar]

You could be right, Mr Hanks.