"The New Atheism" (2008), lecture by John Gray (part 3 of 4)

[Schizopantheist]

Im not so sure Grey is right that science and religion can be kept as separate spheres. At the very least there is always a tension; but id say the two spheres are headed for continual conflict into the future. On the other hand humans are perfectly capable of living happily with ongoing contradictions (to the chagrin of Richard Dawkins).

[RiverChaopraya]

Very thoughtful lecture. Makes me wonder how marvelous it would be to hear Isaiah Berlin. Running off to buy Gray's books right now...

[surix]

I like John N Gray and he is my favourite living philosopher, but this lecture is just plain biased and bad.

[AlcesteEIL]

Auguste Comte, not Charles Comte.

[ibtrippen]

"New Atheists" don't acknowledge human religious needs? Has he never heard of Sam Harris, one of the most famous living atheists who has argued for years that humans have a need for spiritual fulfillment?

[ibtrippen]

When Dr. Grey states that the United States is just as religious as it has always been despite the growth in scientific knowledge, he is ignoring both the fact that most of this scientific progress has happened in the "blue" states and has in fact made them more secular and more atheist. He also ignores the growing population of people who describe themselves as atheists or agnostics.

[Schizopantheist]

@ibtrippen But are there really more atheists than there were in the 20th century or are they simply more willing to say so openly? Anyway the point can be made by looking at Japan and India too- profoundly religious countries; one developed, one rapidly developing.

[pirbird14]

Both Alan Bullock, " Hitler: A Study in Tyranny," and Ian Kershaw, "The "Hitler Myth": Image and Reality in the Third Reich," " suggest that Hitler had no ideology but was a cynical and opportunistic manipulator. Bullock later revised his opinion, suggesting that Hitler actually believed much of what he'd written in Mein Kampf.

And of course, the people who made fascism possible bought the religiosity peddled by the fascists.

[JemyM]

He fail to explain what he means by "religion".

Here he also confuses human psychology with atheism. It's shown by statistics that interest in mythology goes down as knowledge goes up. Also, belief in humanity is an ancient concept, nothing new.

Throughout these series he thus fall back to this; natural reasons why people reject religious movements, such as education, belief in humanity and incoherent protests against religious discourse is an ideology.

[croscream]

''It's shown by statistics that interest in mythology goes down as knowledge goes up.''

I doubt that since traditionally a good education and an interest in classical antiquity goes hand in hand. In fact i would say that mythology is a stable part of literairy studies, pyschological studies, artistic symbolism (heraldry) and linguistics.

[pirbird14]

An interest in mythology is not the same as a belief in myth.

In all of the fields of study you mention, an attempt is made to analyse the human psyche rationally, with varying degrees of success.

In earlier societies, myth functioned as a means of deliberately shaping the human psyche with a view to conforming it to the status quo.

[croscream]

I am not sure what you are getting at, or if you intend to react to what i wrote or jemyM: But i do not ''believe'' in your marxist interpretations of mythology.

[pirbird14]

I haven't a clue what you mean by characterizing my discussion of mythology as "Marxist".

You tried to counter JemyM's claim that" interest in mythology goes down as knowledge goes up" by pointing out that mythology is a stable part of the modern modern studies. I pointed out that interest is not necessarily the same as belief - that mythology can be studied in a rational manner.

What's Marxist about that?

[croscream]

To bad you removed my discussion from your talk page. I would have loved to continiue this chat.

[pirbird14]

Too bad you're hallucinating. You never posted anything to my talk page.

I don't remove remarks unless they are simply vile ad hominem.

[eckavail]

Show me the statistics.

[JemyM]

"interest in mythology goes down as knowledge goes up" is a line I wouldn't use to day as "interest in mythology" can definitely go up as knowledge goes up.

[pirbird14]

If he thinks the Nazis weren't religious, he hasn't read Mein Kampf.

All you have to do is download the plain text file available in public domain at the Gutenberg Project and do a word search on things like "God", "Christianity", "divine", etc. Hitler considered himself to be an instrument of Providence. He hated the working class because they weren't reverent. He hated rationality and his notions of race were based on non-scientific metaphysics. Eugenics is

pseudoscience.

[JemyM]

Thanks for the tip...

"Of course, one doesn't discuss such a question with the Jews, because they are the modern inventors of this cultural perfume. Their very existence is an incarnate denial of the beauty of God's image in His creation."