Illegal biking in Copenhagen

[fnjfrancis]

De forseelser du nævner er lovlige i Holland, svinge til højre ved rødt (med vigepligt), køre mod ensretningen. Cyklister i København er en majoritet der bliver behandlet som en minoritet, din video er et ganske godt eksempel. 99% af alle lyskryds er lavet for at regulere biler, ikke fodgængere og cyklister! Det er ikke cyklerne der tager patent på fællesarealerne, biler optager 30 gange så meget plads som cykler! Cyklister og fodgængere har mere tilfælles en du giver udtryk for.

[Griffencph]

@fnjfrancis Visse steder i USA må biler også svinge til højre for rødt, hvis de bare overholder vigepligten. Skal jeg så også bare svinge min lastbil til højre for rødt, hvis der er fri bane? Det må man jo i udlandet...

Indtil reglerne er lavet om, skal vi alle forholde os til paragrafferne i færdselsloven, uanset hvor latterlige de føles.

[fnjfrancis]

@Griffencph Jeg forsøger egentligt bare at tilbyde et andet perspektiv på tingene. Din lille film er umiddelbart motiveret af irritation/vrede over cyklisters opførsel, jeg synes det er interessant at spørge sig, hvorfor mon det forgår. Stort set alle Københavnere er cyklister på et eller andet tidspunkt, er vi alle en flok moralløse idioter eller er der andre forklaringer. Jeg mener, at vejene i Danmark er særdeles bil-centriske, og jeg er derfor ikke forundret over din film.

[Griffencph]

@fnjfrancis Jeg talte iøvrigt ikke om hvem der fylder mest, for alle ved at en standardcykel er meget mindre end en standardbil.

Men hvis du tæller fodgængere på cykelstien i forhold til cyklister på fortovet, så fylder cyklerne mest.

Hvis du tæller cykler der kører på vejbanen i stedet for cykelstien i forhold til biler der kører på cykelstien i stedet for vejbanen, så fylder cyklisterne mest. Her fraregnet cyklister der kører udenom ulovligt parkerede biler.

[vagabond142]

You do know that the bike lanes get green lights about 15 seconds before cars do, right? It's to promote bicycle flow and to dissuade car use

[Griffencph]

@vagabond142

We're not in Canada where such rules might apply, and it's not a bike lane with signals of its own.

Over here there's no rules on how long before or after the bikes get green light. Some get it later to let cars turn right, some end earlier for same reason. Some go green when car light go amber while others go green 30 secs before car light changes. some are adjusted for green wave at 20 km/h in rush hours. The lights here are all individually set for the specific location.

[vagabond142]

@Griffencph Heh... where I live in Canada has absolutely NO infrastructure specifically for bikes, sadly :\ Makes me want to live in Copenhagen, if only for the bike infrastructure :D

[stig5057]

@Griffencph Hvad har du ondt i røven over ,der ingen der genere dig,derimod er det dig der sidder og oser.

[Griffencph]

@stig5057 Når du siger at jeg oser, formoder jeg at du hentyder til min motor. For det første holdt jeg der fordi det på det tidspunkt var mit arbejde at transportere borgernes affald fra deres adresser i byen til passende modtageanlæg, og jeg derfor er tvunget til at holde enten der eller ved et andet rødt lys hvor problemet er det samme.

[Griffencph]

Del 2: Jeg ved ikke om du har lyst til at cykle alle københavneres storskrald, haveaffald og dagrenovation til de respektive modtageanlæg, men god tur hvis du starter op... Jeg skal gladeligt give dig et glas vand når du prustende og stønnende cykler forbi med et par tons brugte bleer og muggent brød på bagagebæreren og fem kubikmeter tjørnehæk på cykelanhængeren i bedste kineserstil.

[Griffencph]

Del 3: Jeg siger ikke de ikke må være der, jeg siger bare at jeg SKAL være der. Og jeg forventer at alle følger de samme færdselsregler som jeg har lært, så længe vi er i Danmark hvor pågældende regler gælder!

[fnjfrancis]

@Griffencph Man kan også spørge sig selv, hvorfor cykler skal følge de samme regler som biler? Det er ikke cykler/cyklister der dræber andre trafikanter, så hvorfor virker det så provokerende når reglerne ikke bliver fuldt til punkt og prikke af cyklister, reglerne er jo udformet for biler i første omgang. Biler og cykler er langt fra ens, de bør også behandles forskelligt! Bøden for at bruge håndholdt mobiltelefon under kørslen er 1500 kr. i motorkøretøjer og 1000 kr. på cykel, er det fair?????

[Griffencph]

@fnjfrancis Jeg synes alle trafikanttyper skulle betale det samme for de samme forseelser.

Selvom en slingrende cyklist med håndholdt telefon ikke direkte dræber nogen, så kan en uopmærksomhedsrelateret manøvre få en bilist til at undvige og derved ramme nogen andre.

Og jo, cyklister dræber også i trafikken. Det er sådan en af mine kammerater mistede sin mor. Hun landede med hovedet ned i kantstenen og døde af sit kraniebrud i ambulancen!

[fnjfrancis]

@Griffencph Jeg er ked af at høre, at din ven mistede sin mor, det er sørgeligt. Jeg er enig med dig i, at cyklister skal udvise opmærksomhed, selvfølgelig skal de det. Det er dog fakta, at majoriteten af trafikdrab skyldes biler. F.eks.dør 4.000 af forurening fra biler i Danmark, og det er 10 gange så mange, som der dræbes i trafikken. Cyklister er med til, at nedbringe trafikdrab drastisk, det er yderst sjældent de er skyld i dem!

[Griffencph]

@fnjfrancis Som det er nu, føler jeg at en meget markant gruppe af cyklister tror de ejer alle færdselsarealer, og at folk der ikke lige er på cykel på pågældende tidspunkt, bare skal forføje sig bort og tie stille. Hvis jeg tager en smøg ude på altanen, ser jeg i gennemsnit tre cyklister køre mod ensretningen nede på gaden, mens kun en enkelt kører den rigtige vej. De fleste kunne uden ekstra pedaltråd bruge parallelvejen på den anden side af blokken.

[Griffencph]

@fnjfrancis #2 Der er kryds i byen hvor jeg i flere uger ikke har oplevet at der IKKE er nogen der cykler i fodgængerfeltet i venstre side.

En ud af ti cyklister stopper for rødt, hvis de skal til højre, de andre ni foretager ulovligt højresving for rødt lys, ofte til gene for de tværgående cykler og fodgængere.

Af dem der trods alt stopper, holder halvdelen helt eller delvist i fodgængerfeltet, mens en lidt mindre gruppe kører helt gennem før de holder.

[alberto7443]

@Griffencph  U asshole.

[Dryppelyp]

Fornemmer man en vis bitterhed overfor cyklister? Heh.

Hvorfor er denne video overhovedet optaget? Tror tyv at hver mand stjæler?

[Griffencph]

Ja, jeg har en del bitterhed overfor mange cyklisters moral eller mangel på samme, især i de større byer. Hvis du havde oplevet både dødsfald og varige mén blandt folk du kender på grund af cyklister der overtræder reglerne, ville du nok have samme holdning til cyklister.

[Griffencph]

Og den med tyven der tror forstår jeg slet ikke, idet jeg stopper når der er rødt, ikke cykler på fortovet, ikke cykler i den forkerte side og iøvrigt tager hensyn både til folk omkring mig og til gældende lov (uanset om den er latterlig) når jeg færdes i trafikken.

[lofi73]

Bilerne ud af byen!

[Griffencph]

@lofi73 Ja tak, cyklerne op på broer eller vejene ned i kælderen. Og så flere busser og tog og færre biler. Så kan det ske os erhvervschauffører kan effektivisere vores arbejde til gavn for kunder, omgivelser og ikke mindst miljø...

[AndrooUK]

Well one could argue that if the junction is clear, then the red light is superfluous and not conducive to positive traffic/people flow... as many red lights are. (I'm throwing the 'shared space' spanner in the works here).

I'm consistently annoyed by having to stop at traffic lights when they say stop, but the road clearly says go (that is, the road is clear, and you can see it's clear), especially traffic light controlled pedestrian crossings...

[Griffencph]

I agree many red lights are annoying and might only be needed in some hours of the day, but nevertheless they are to be respected (or at least followed) as long as they are there.

[Griffencph]

@AndrooUK I follow your argument, and if the bike riding population in Copenhagen had a little less egoism and a little more common sense, I'd find it natural to let those people decide hven to ride and when to stop. But as long as rules are as now, they should stop at red light. It's a 50£ fine anyway for crossing at red, riding at pavement, riding in zebra crossing or riding in wrong side. The fines are there for a safety reason that is still a present day problem.

[Porgot138]

Griffencph = MORON

[Griffencph]

That's a nice and constructive reply. But since I'm obviously a jerk with shit for brains, could you please tell me WHY you think I'm a moron? I might be wrong, and I'm willing to discuss it, but I actually think I'm the opposite...

[Porgot138]

Griffencph

Nope.

[moulinlolo]

@Griffencph, don't like offensive language and I'm sorry to see that. For me the problem is that traffic light only exists because of cars and that we constantly see car drivers irritated by bikers going through traffic lights were the only motivation seems to be their own frustration.

To make everybody happy, let's make all road 30km/h max and remove all traffic light ! OK? and stop insulting each other.

:-)

[siemprelisto45]

I lived in DK for 11 years. The bicycle crossing the street is doing this in a trafic ligth for bikes with green arrow to the left. That´s why the cars are stoped. There is no cars crossing at this point. the bike is going to a line to turn to the left and stops at the next red ligth.

[Griffencph]

There are many crosses in Copenhagen built like you describe, but not this one.

There are NO bike signals and the bikes DO HAVE a stop line before the crosswalk.

There is NO bike lane going left along the crosswalk to the center "island".

The only things between the soft right lanes and the hard left lane would be grass, trees and two rows of concrete tiles reserved for pedestrians. (aka pavement / footwalk)

Every bike crossing is driving illegaly.

[elgeneralsv]

was there a red light in there? I could not distinguish from the video. Sorry to hear about what happened to you and bicycles Griffen... I prefer a bicycle but always stop at the signals because here in the US cars run over as many cyclists they can before they run out of gas, very sad I hope US becomes more like Copenhagen or Amsterdam

[Griffencph]

Yes, there was a red light for bikes as well, since the pedestrian crossing was at green. My phone cam is just not clear enough to show it.

[tubotuyo]

OHHH MY GOOOOD!!!!! What a terrible crime

[Griffencph]

How do you expect children to grow up obeying the law when they see their parents and grandparents acting like this?

[tubotuyo]

You really hate cyclists (I have read some other coments from you), and I was going to ask you why, but then I realized you are a truck driver. Funny thing, I didn't know truck driver's hate towards cyclists is universal.

[Griffencph]

I do ride a bike to and from work. I will rather ride a bike than walk.

I also have a friend whose mother died from injuries when a bike ran her down on the pavement. She cracked her head against the curb. The bike never stopped.

[Griffencph]

My grandmother-in-law spent 9 weeks recovering from a broken hip after being run down on the pavement next to a bike lane. She was 86 years old at that time.

I don't hate bikes because I'm a truck driver. I hate MANY cycklists - not ALL - because I've seen what careless cycklists do.

[tubotuyo]

I understand you, but you don`t see me complainig that all truck drivers are killers, even when I have to deal with them everyday, and believe me, in my country they don't care, they are real animals, most of them.

I am sure over there you could pick up a camera, and see what some careless truck drivers do as well (or is it that danish truck/cars drivers don't ever kill people, and break the laws?), so don't generalize (as you do on the video presentation).

[tubotuyo]

And I also know people that have died from the careless driving of truck/car/bus drivers

[Griffencph]

Would that be cars etc driving on the bike lane or driving on the road?

I'm not saying that motor drivers are angels, but here in DK a car running red is uncommon and you'd notice it. It's opposite with bikes; if they STOP at red, you notice (at least here in Copenhagen). Out of those who actually stop, I believe that about half of them cross the stopline and the pedestrian crossing before they stop.

I'll look at the video presentation in just a second.

[niceonetom]

what a calamity.

[ShelterDogs]

So the cyclist toward the end of the video wasn't supposed to turn left and cross? What was she supposed to do? Sorry, I don't live in Copenhagen.

[Griffencph]

She should either get off the bike and pull it, or she should wait for green, continue to the next cross (by the white building 100m ahead) and cross there.

[ShelterDogs]

I see. When I first watched this video I didn't realize you were stopped at a red light. It almost looks like you are standing behind a parked car. But now I get it totally.

It must be difficult for biking tourists to Copenhagen to learn these unique rules. I wonder if they are given handouts by the bike renters.

[Griffencph]

I don't think anyone tells them about rules unless they ask.

By the way tourist organizations complaned to the police that especially in Copenhagen many tourists were alarmed by the high number of bikes riding the pavement, coming from all sides without warning.

Us Copenhageners are used to look in all 12 directions before moving anywhere, but tourists walking would only look for the expected traffic type in the expected lane in the expected direction, and they would be (almost) run down.

[arniecommando]

Oh dear looks like I have done the same things as a few other who post negative comments about Paul Jones riding (not I dont use the word Skills) and it looks like I have been blocked from posting to his constant barage of anti anything on the road but cycles and he is perfect.

[arniecommando]

I must add blocked from posting on Pauls own video clips. Not on here.

[arniecommando]

Minimal risk is 101% possible and safer than relative. RoSPA recommend "minimal risk" you do NOT pass nearside of LARGE vehicles,Ride DEFENSIVELY. YOU dont WANT to.YOU PUT YOURSELF AT RISK too often. Any vehicle is a risk, overtaking cycles, turning etc. Fact Cars are involved in more accidents with bikes than LGVs.2004 2%casualties of LGV, 87%casualties of Cars (Off RoSPA site)

You do get close to turning vehicles wheels/sides by failing to give way as you could have done but decided not to.

[mailpauljonescouk]

If it's dangerous on the road due to motor traffic and if waiting at red lights means getting caught up in heavy traffic, it may be safer to do this. Eg: there's evidence that timid female cyclists get killed by left turning lorries in London more often than men who don't wait.

[Griffencph]

It's the same female thing in DK, except it's at right turns due to our right side driving of course.

The two young men i know went under trucks in Copenhagen the last years were both oncoming from the left side trying to cross in front of a truck that was faster than their ego.

[mixxyuk]

One detail to add a balanced view of this, Those persons male and female killed in London, by left turns, Most are killed by cars, and those killed by trucks, the majority are killed where they have undertaken and are caught as the vehicle then turns. Urls can be supplied to verify this.

[mixxyuk]

Sounds like in Denmark you have similar problems to the UK, cyclists throwing caution to the wind and not caring who suffers even themselves, as long as they get there 1st.

[mailpauljonescouk]

Would be interesting to see the urls. Put here with space instead of dots. Cars usually kill cyclists when being driven too fast, but it's different with lorries, which are exceptionally dangerous at low speed near cyclists for several reasons: eg driver's restricted vision, large wheels, hostile side design, turning circle etc

[mixxyuk]

Put here without Dots? Not sure what you! You may well have caught me out for a change Paul. It looks to be that I misread the article concerned as the figures weren't the most recent. 2000-2006 the figures were in London 55% of fatalities were involving LGVs HGVs, but please note, In this period 7.5 tonne vehicles are now categorised as LGVs and have been accountable.

[mixxyuk]

Very strange how you notice these dangers of large vehicles, yet insist you must put yourself at risk by entering vehicles turning circle, get close to there wheels, and "hostile side design" Oh PS more cyclists injusred by cars per year.

[mailpauljonescouk]

mixxyuk: I think you're misinterpretting what you've seen on my site - I don't like cycling inside lorries - the camera lens makes a close behind and to the left position look like close alongside. I put myself where the lorry driver can confirm my position in rear view mirror, especially at junctions, i.e. not hidden from view. I good driver would reciprocate by confirming the cyclist's position during manoeuvre.

[mixxyuk]

Paul I have stated that you do not like, All RoSPA site pages recomendations state, As a cyclist you should not put yourself in danger,this includes putting yourself near wheels of turning vehicles, ie cyclist squeezed. Do not pass on the nearside of LARGE vehicles even if you have cycle lane. Do not ride agressively! I rest my case , all things many others say you do.Make excuses Paul,But of course we are all wrong

[mailpauljonescouk]

There's no such thing as zero risk cycling on the road so risks are relative. I choose to cycle in the cycle lane past lorries in queues of traffic but wouldn't do this when a lorry is likely to turn. Lorries passing close from behind pose much greater danger.

[arniecommando]

Please see top comment. In your vids you blame other users for your own lack of courtessy. You lack the ability too often to give way to other road users and when others point this out you cannot accept it & make excuse after excuse. From what you say are RoSPA wrong as well, even though they fight for safer roads?

[arniecommando]

Please see top comment. I see you in your vids blaming other users for your own lack of courtessy. You lack the ability too often to give way to other road users and when others point this out you cannot accept it & make excuse after excuse. Or are RoSPA wrong as well, even though they fight for safer roads?

[Griffencph]

Paul Jones, I did "up" the evaluation thumbs on your "There's no such thing as zero risk cycling on the road..." comment, but I think we have different definitions of "close" though.

[mailpauljonescouk]

It's common for people to cycle on pavements even where the default position is that it's illegal (such as in UK) and quite a few cyclists choose to jump red. Personally, I don't like to do this but I understand why some may prefer to.

[mailpauljonescouk]

Looks like spacious off road cycle way with cyclists using this sensibly and there's no conflict with pedestrians or other traffic, which has stopped. Is this really 'illegal' in Copenhagen? May be safer than cycling on road.

[Griffencph]

The problem is that the bikes have red light as well as the cars, in order to let the eventual pedestrians cross the zebra crossing safely.

It's also illegal to ride a bike in the z-crossing as one woman does, illegally continuing down the footwalk to the next z-crossing.