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Dr White is good -- puts his Robbie in a pickle.
glizag 2 years ago
do you know if the Greek implies a absolute knowledge?
pacislander4life 4 years ago
in this clip Sungenis does the best job in pointing out the weaknesses of the Reformed position on Hebrews 11:8 and assurance of salvation.
fineca 4 years ago
This is my main issue with the Catholics, or any other "works" based faith. being human, we all continue sinning...daily. I dont see how any Catholic can ever "KNOW" they are saved. As a Reformed Christian I know I am secure becuase I desire to do good works "becuase" I was saved, not in order to be saved. Jesus says that he will not cast out those whom the Father has given Him. John 6:36-39. Those are the ones who are "called" by the Father.
wuebbsco 4 years ago
First of all, we are not a "works based" faith or salvation. I think Andy Anderson made that clear in the beginning, and he isn't even Catholic. We are a grace based faith or salvation.
pacislander4life 4 years ago
By the grace of God, we are enabled to make a free choice, God or damnation. Our Justification is based on faith, but a faith which is working, not just talking, if you know what I mean.
pacislander4life 4 years ago
You say that by the grace of God we are enabled to make a free choice. Is it grace that he allows us to make a choice that we do not have the ability to make? The bible says natural man cannot please God. The "grace" part is that he saves us based on "nothing" that we could do on our own part! That is what's so awesome about God's grace. Why do you think Jesus is called the "author and finisher" of our faith. When He died, it was FInished. His "called" people were saved!
wuebbsco 4 years ago
Again, I accidentally delated your other message... If you can please repost what you said last... something about how works are what make you sure you are saved... grace is what enables us to make a free choice... Apart from God's grace, we would only sin...
pacislander4life 4 years ago
You state, "I dont see how any Catholic can ever "KNOW" they are saved." But the thing is, that doesn't bother us, well, it doesn't bother the Catholic who understands his faith. Im sure many Catholics "think" they are saved (past tense),
pacislander4life 4 years ago
only because they hear the terminology from Protestant friends, but we do not believe we can know.
pacislander4life 4 years ago
We can have a sort of moral assurance, in the sense that we can assess whether we are in a state of grace or not, but not a full assurance of our salvation.
pacislander4life 4 years ago
You then say, "I know I am secure becuase I desire to do good works "becuase" I was saved" The problem with this, at least if you are Reformed, in my opinion is, it seems like you are saying that because you are saved, you desire to do good works, and by that account you are assured of your salvation.
pacislander4life 4 years ago
My question is first of all, how do you KNOW you were saved to begin with? Is it because you desire to good works? Can't be, because Buddhists desire to do good work too, are they "saved" by that same observation? I am not saying Buddhists cannot be saved, but my point is, if I see you doing good works, you claim it is because you are saved.
pacislander4life 4 years ago
But what if I see an atheist doing good works, is that BECAUSE he is saved? All sorts of people do good works, my contention is, that doesn't mean that person will be saved in the end.
pacislander4life 4 years ago
It cannot be faith alone (1 Cor 13:2-13), it certainly cannot be works alone (Matt 23:13-29), it must be a faith that works (Gal 5:6). Of course there are so many passages, but I'm sure Dr. Sungenis hit most of the best ones in the debate.
pacislander4life 4 years ago
About John 6:36-39, Robert Sungenis writes, "Jesus states clearly that it is the Father who initiates the salvation process. The Father must draw to Jesus those whom he desires to save. At the same time, however, Jesus specifies that each person has the choice to "listen" to the "teaching of God."
pacislander4life 4 years ago
When they "listen" and "learn" they will come to Jesus. Yet Jesus is clear in John 5:40 that it is man who decides not to come to God: "These are Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." (How Can I Get to Heaven, p. 256)
pacislander4life 4 years ago
Moses,
Are you elect?
-Laurence
pacislander4life 4 years ago
What horrible caricature of the Reformed position! and I assume Mr. Sungenis knows better..."you can never know if you have the works"...I wonder then, Does the Roman Catholic Church deny Matthew 7:21-23? There were some with "works" there but Jesus clearly shows its not what you do, its His "knowing" you...who does he know? The elect!!!!
prchdaword 4 years ago