HHO MAX 001

[a1mint]

Reality check: 11 V * 2.5 A = 27.5 Watts

Second reality check: it takes more energy to produce HHO than it returns when burning it

Third reality check: there is not enough inefficiency in today's combustion engine for HHO burning action to improve on.

Forth reality check: all the HHO is produced by combusting petrol, and it can't produce more energy than it has.

Where's the benefit?

[luc59457]

@a1mint You are not quite correct in this one. HHO does not have to be produced by combusting petrol. Though petrol products may have been required to produce the solar panels which are providing electricity to produce HHO. Even though the power device may have required petrol, afterwards, the electricity provided, is not requiring petrol. Likewise with Hydro or Nuclear.

[luc59457]

@a1mint An electric Car requires in the range of 100-200amps, usually above 100 volts dc. So If you can get a car up to full speed with only HH0, requiring less current and voltage than specified above, There is a benefit. It still requires more parts than electric, thus more to brake down and it would be more process for gas stations to covert to this unless the vehicles were all battery to HH0 powered instead of HHO tank storage so they can be quick charged at gas stations.

[luc59457]

@a1mint The main problem with HHO, like gas, is it always needs to be used and combusted, so when waiting at a stop or slowing to a stop, HHO is always being combusted which is wastefull. If production was stopped or reduced during these actions, then it would be less wastefull.

[a1mint]

@luc59457 When we're talking about HHO systems, we're generally talking about on-board on-demand generated HHO gas using electrolysis using electricity from the alternator, and usually surrounded by HHO related parts sales people that keep these scams going.

As for generating HHO outside the car and bringing it with you in a stored form, keep in mind that the energy density of HHO gas is very low, even under pressure.

I have yet to see any beneficial application of HHO and type to any car...

[luc59457]

@a1mint Ahhh... I was talking about taking the energy from batteries on-board to make the HHO and charging those batteries with solar panel or a clean power station.

[a1mint]

@luc59457

It would be *much* more efficient to run an electric motor off of those batteries and help to push the car that way. Electrolysis is inefficient, and the combustion is very inefficient.

I'm all for batteries, but the amount of energy needed to have any useful amount can not come from a few solar panels. The amount of energy needed to push a car is ridiculously large.

You're thinking more creatively though.

[luc59457]

@a1mint It would be *much* more efficient to run an electric motor off of those batteries and help to push the car that way: I have little doubt of that. All I would like to know is if they can power a car with under 100amps at lets say 12v, which would be less than the power required from All out electric. I doubt it but would like to see how many amps it takes nonetheless. I seen a quick tests of a car running on it, lots of missing information and the water was getting gobbled!

[a1mint]

@luc59457 Based on previous calculations, it might be in the 12,500 Watt range just to keep the car running at moderate highway speed.

12,500 / 12 is over 1,000 Watts to run on a battery.

There is SUCH a large amount of energy packed in oil/petrol it just aint funny. Given it's so cheap (relatively speaking), that's why it's so darn hard to compete with it.

Puny solar panels are futile. Wind is MUCH more potent.

[luc59457]

@a1mint In the end I think electric is much more simple, much less to brake and is only running when it needs to - by default. The only reason I am in here is because I want to know how much amps it takes to create enough HH0 to sufficiently power a vehicle with comparable torque and speed to a standard gas auto. I have not found this anywhere, perhaps you have?

[a1mint]

@luc59457 Forget about HHO. There is absolutely no place for that. You'd need probably more than twice the amount of Wattage if the energy has to pass through the electrolyzer plus combustion process.

Replacing the combustion engine with an a electric motor is far better. Saves a ton of weight.

One could carry a small gas powered generator to keep the batteries charged. The upcoming Chev Volt does that.

[luc59457]

@a1mint I would prefer a CNG generator someday in a hybrid, if possible, but I like the volt. I seen a video from Germany on it, but I am not too familiar with it. Been hearing about the volt more lately. I agree with you, forget about HHO. Apparently Tokyo's G4e is pretty impressive. An advanced battery technology able to travel 200km per charge and 15 minutes charge time. With a CNG generator and heat loss devices, a lot of power can be placed back into those batteries, shortly.

[luc59457]

@luc59457 I seen a video from Germany on some kind of CNG hybrid but I am not too familiar with it, I could not understand anything that was said, but I did see a ride at highway speeds.

[a1mint]

@luc59457 Another possibility is if these batteries would become industry standard. Instead of owning them you'd have a deposit on one. Instead of waiting to charge it, you exchange it at an exchange station (what's now a gas station).

I'm imagining a drawer on the back or side, that you pull out, and then you life a box from it with a handle. Multiple boxes (batteries).

[luc59457]

@a1mint Battery exchange stations sounds good, it would improve the life expectancy of them. The thing is, if you always exchange them, you should only be given the same quality battery as you purchased. For anything interesting to really boom in USA and Canada, we gotta stop importing so much products that require rare earth metals, and start mining legally in the U.S.A. Lots of Rare earth elements there.

[a1mint]

@luc59457 You wouldn't own the battery, and the way it could work is that you put a deposit on it that includes the expected amount of energy you're getting. Then when you go exchange it, a computer checks to see how much energy you actually got out of it, and applies a refund for unused energy. That way you can exchange it before it runs out without it costing you more.

Different brands can then vie for your business, each advertising better range.

[luc59457]

@a1mint Well, that might mean a lot of battery brands will have to go because the standard will be elsewhere. I have no problem with this, there are too many types as it is. I think your idea with exchanging batteries is brilliant and should be adopted world-wide! North America is 3rd world when it comes to that and I hope it sees some significant advancements soon. The volt is only the start of it all. I think more room should be made for electric convo's on HHO videos. LOL

[a1mint]

@luc59457 It seems all feasible doesn't it? I think the reasons for the seemingly lethargic action on all of this, is the fact that oil/petrol packs such a good punch of energy that's very hard to compete with. It seems all so silly though, sucking oil up from the ground and ocean (dangerous obviously), just because a chemical reaction with oxygen releases heat.

Electricity from nuclear could be competitive if only batteries were better. Nuclear has its obvious downsides as well.

[luc59457]

@a1mint I know of something but it is not here yet. Concentrated solar would be more than enough. In the desert, one dish (which could easily fit in a typical backyard) is claimed to produce 25kw or enough to power approx 10 homes at peak. Even if it can power 1, heck, that's great! We are just not there yet. Another example: The volt uses a 16 kW·h (8.8 kW·h usable) lithium-ion battery pack, The g4e has superior. The problem is expense for these batteries, but again, battery exchange stations.

[luc59457]

@luc59457 When I say concentrated solar, I mean Stirling Dishes. Steam is another option but I prefer the other.

[a1mint]

@luc59457 You only get what you capture. You can't magnify it. Using a magnifying glass or mirrors means you're increasing the square footage, nothing more.

[luc59457]

@a1mint You increase the square footage of what is being captured and concentrated to a small area. The metal heats up to build up heat for the hot side of the Stirling engine. These mirrors can make the metal reach above 1000C. Converting this to wattage is proportionate to the TD of the sterling engine, the load, and inefficiencies. Stirling engines are claimed to be around 40% efficient. Spectrolab claims to have a Concentrated P.v design at 40.7% but I have no idea if any of it is true.

[a1mint]

@luc59457 I'm coming across casual claims to only have achieved 30%.

But that's already pretty good. Mirrors are great because they ought to be cheap.

There are other losses obviously. Once you have kinetic energy you have to convert to electricity. I wonder if the overall total efficiency, once stored in batteries, is better with plain voltaic solar cells.

It would be nice to see an overall cost comparison. It all boils down to watts per $.

[a1mint]

@luc59457 And I bet that in terms of watts per $, nothing beats hydro dams, then wind.

[luc59457]

@a1mint Still think Concentrated solar has a ways to go, before we get definite facts on its watts per $.. I would say Coal is the cheapest but so dirty! Gas is also competitive for base-load power in many places, particularly using combined-cycle plants, though rising gas prices have removed much of the advantage.

Nuclear energy is, in many places, competitive with fossil fuel for electricity generation, despite relatively high capital costs and the need to internalise all waste...

[a1mint]

@luc59457 Check this out, Wikipedia, Renewable-energy_economy, there's a table titled "Renewable power generation costs 2010".

This raises a few questions. Off shore wind is wasting money compared to on shore for one.

Concentrating solar is expensive, unfortunately - but, cheaper than home based PV cells.

Not seeing a home based concentrating-solar solution though...

[luc59457]

@a1mint I know that adding regular mirrors beside the Photovoltaic cell will increase it's efficiency. There is a limit though.

[a1mint]

@luc59457 Agreed. Interesting how the solar panel companies never get into this. They'd rather see you buying more panels as opposed to adding a mirror panel to it.

[luc59457]

@a1mint I want to also mention something important. With Stirling Dishes or preferably Solar panels, they can be stacked on top, high enough so their is no shade. So really, you can consider up also.

[a1mint]

@luc59457 ... if you keep the total square footage used on the ground low. Once you start taking up room, obviously only the edges along the bottom would be getting sun light.

[a1mint]

@luc59457 Also check out the solar bowl, a reflector system that doesn't need tracking.

I'm seeing an article on a Stirling Dish system that indeed says it can produce 25kW per dish. That's pretty damn good! And no voltaic solar cells, so no ugly patents or rip-off companies keeping the price high on purpose (solar panel prices are bullshit).

This means plenty of opportunities to bring the cost down.

So, what *ARE* people waiting for?

[luc59457]

@a1mint I agree, solar panel prices are Bs.

[H2Truckers]

@a1mint 25kw this Stirling Dish sounds cool. Can you show more about it?

[a1mint]

@luc59457 $3000 US per kW. We now ought to feel stupid for paying hydro bills now.

[luc59457]

@a1mint Not sure if you got my last post, it is not showing here, but it shows 3 times on my channel.

[luc59457]

@luc59457 when the sun is out, their are methods to contain the heat for various uses, but this would only really be effective if there was a large array of them as in a power plant. It would of course be less effective here than in the desert but still effective in areas that get lots of sun.

[a1mint]

@luc59457 A few houses here and there have solar collectors, and keep the hot/warm water in insulated tanks. Many pools are solar heated as well. Those are excellent solutions, if you need warm water.

I literally feel stupid turning on the warm water tap these days. I feel like I'm using up stored energy that's been collected over millions of years (fossil fuel).

Although... in Ontario (Canada), where I am, a large percentage of our electricity comes from nuclear.

[a1mint]

@luc59457 But wait, our hot water tank runs on gas. So that's fossil fuel again. So I can continue to feel stupid when I run the warm water tap.

[luc59457]

@a1mint disposal and decommissioning costs. If the social, health and environmental costs of fossil fuels are also taken into account, the economics of nuclear power are outstanding.

See also the December 2005 World Nuclear Association report (pdf 310 kB)

ww. world-nuclear. org/info/inf02 . html

[a1mint]

@luc59457 The sun has a maximum amount of energy it will ever project per square footage. WIkipedia, Solar_cell: "a solar cell of 12% efficiency with a 100 cm2 (0.01 m2) surface area can be expected to produce approximately 1.2 watts of power"

So, that'd be 120 Watts per square meter, max.

Do produce 25kW, you'd need 25000/120 = 208 square meters, 2250 square feet, give or take.

One household, 20 square meters. Doable.

If the cost of these panels come down a bit, that would help.

[a1mint]

@luc59457 But logically, I don't drive my car constantly. Driving it on average only 1.2 hours a day, say, that'd be only 5%. If 50% of the day I can generate electricity from solar, then I'd need the panels to generate 12,500 * 1.2 / 12 = 1,250 Watts. That's with zero losses, so, probably more like 1,500 Watts. They never work as advertised, and there's not always sun, so, I'd need to probably buy 2,500 Watts of solar panel capacity, kaatching! Lots of square feet needed.

[luc59457]

@a1mint And once they mine rare earth elements in the states to be mass marketed. This will cut the costs of the motor and other parts to balance out with the expensive batteries, which will also become cheaper in time once even better ones come out.

[luc59457]

@a1mint Electric Transit sounds good too. This will save lots of dollars in the future, along with many other benefits. It's gotta be done everywhere that is developed, it is still not that common in the world at large, though increasing. Human progression in transportation must proceed fast, because it will only get harder to progress as more gas vehicles are sold instead of the latter.

[a1mint]

@luc59457 Europe runs almost all its trains electric, using overhead wires. Even the high speed trains have them. North America is a third world when it comes to trains.

[luc59457]

@a1mint You can search Subaru g4e or look through my favorites for the video which explains some specs on it.

[luc59457]

@a1mint Charging the batteries separately at home. No HHO storage. That is definitely out of the question.

[luc59457]

@a1mint 25kw per dish, even if I can 10 here, I would be happier than 10kw of solar panels. The most expense comes from the tracking device and generator. The generator is way overpriced.

[09205479428]

Very good research . keep up.

[ipctec]

Good work man, nice cell :o)

[JAD1DAD]

What are you using for electrolyte if any? Also, after extended use or testing do you see a higher amp draw?

[Fusion8r]

I'm using KOH for electrolyte in distilled water, and after running the cell, the temp. does increase therefore the amp draw increases.

Thanks for the question

Fusion8r

[cobn7777]

great job there !! I have jus a (stupid :) question : what are for the neutral plates between the anode and cathode ?? thanks

[Fusion8r]

Thanks...there is nothing wrong with that question...but I will let ZeroFossilFuel answer your question. Quote from ALT-NRG * COM in the FAQ: Neutral plates form a series resistive network that divides the available input voltage across the plates for the optimum voltage/plate gap of 2.0-2.4V. If automotive charging systems were 2.3V I would not use neutral plates. If they were 4.6V I would use one neutral plate, etc etc. More than 2.4V per plate gap wastes energy in the form of heat.

Fusion8r

[luc59457]

@Fusion8r Electrical """"current"""" is the flow of electrons through a substance that will permit that flow. The substance is called a conductor. Some conductors are better than others, but none are perfect, and all resist electron flow to some extent. When electron flow is resisted, some of the energy in the electrons does not travel through all the way. Because energy is conserved, the energy that was moving the electrons forward is converted to heat energy.

[amen2233]

not enough voltage to cover all those neutral plates ---remove them... check out zero's episode 36 i think .... i removed mine and it does make a difference

[eatarose]

the best way to end the war in iraq, dissable terrorists, bring stability and peace to the middle east is to build a hydrogen fuel cell. i commend everyones efforts, the best thing is to freely share your knowledge so that any discoverys do not end up on some shelf locked away in a saudi vault. they may have killed Stan Meyer, they can't kill us all!!

[Signzit]

God all you guys are so cool, You know you guys working together are going to change everything. I can't wait till I can learn, there is just so much to wade through.

I did see all these, watch?v=ofsxZfu9rW0 They helped me to understand the ICE side of HHO.

Stan said less then 1/2 amp & 3watts with very little heat. Other folks say it's the gating at slower rates. watch?v=RUN5vFLUzxc

It's a lot for a nail pounder. any tips on were to start? LPM right?

not dumb, just slow

Thanks

[denton3737]

My current configuration is +N--N+ I would like to see this configuration with use in a larger cell like your's though if you're willing to change your plates around for the sake of expermentation and record your findings.

[Fusion8r]

sure, i think i can accommodate your request. do you have a preference on the spacing, volts, or amperes?

Fusion8r

[luc59457]

@Fusion8r Power lines use high voltage, low "current" to reduce "heat" loss and to reduce the need for thicker wire.

[0ddba11s]

Yes same set up I am using now it acts like a potential divider you drop 6v per each neutral as it is the current not the voltage doing the work but you do need voltage. If you use 2 neutrals is drops to 3v per neutral and that is too low.

[jcost2008]

anyone from miami know how to do this

[neoartifact]

Awesome cell! You have loads of current leakage though. I doubt the neutral plates help much. It's best to have one to 2 neutrals in between the anode and cathode. Also, try PWM and tweak the plate efficiency using resonance. Awesome job.

[Fusion8r]

Thanks for the comment Neo!! I plan on trying different configurations and also do tests with a PWM I plan to build that has the volt and amp range I'd like to be in, right now numbers are just to low.

Forget about OverUnity numbers, if you can run a car on 100% water and other efficency devices and no petrol....THATS OVERUNITY! :-)

Thanks again

Fusion8r

[ZeroFossilFuel]

Nice work! I see one more lekage point you might want to eliminate. The electrode rods in solution. Just slip some heat shrink over them.

Later,

Zero

[Fusion8r]

Thanks for the comment Zero!! Right now I'm trying liquid electrical tape on the rods and the tips of the plates, top and bottom. I seem to be getting pretty good results, the solution does not heat up as quickly.

BTW...in your vids you show sanding the plates, did you do any testing between sanding and not sanding? So far I'm not seeing any difference.

Thanks again!

Fusion8r

[ZeroFossilFuel]

No I haven't tested sanded vs unsanded. I've been going on data collected by others.

[gregted1]

I wouldn't put the dog bones back in that jar..Lol.

Looking forward to your test on the amount of gas produced and the efficiency results. Looks good so far.

Keep up the good work.