THE GUY WHO POSTED IS A CONVERT DALIT BASTAD, BORN TO A FAT MONKEY..I GOT ONE DOUBT BRO..! DID UR MOM GAVE BIRTH TO U OR SHE SHAT U OUT..!! THIS IS GENUINE.. KINDLY REPLY .. NO OFFENCE..DEAR.. U LOOK LIKE U CAME OUT OF A SHIT HOLE.. CONVERT
Christianity in India is curse to the country and Islam is a boon to the country. My wish India should be a Hindu country. This will become true one day.
@jonhank619 They have spoiled our way of living which was peaceful and united. The christians broke all our morons by dividing Hindus. This is the tactics used by birtishers to rule India same thing followed till now in all nook and corner of India. the service rendered by the christians are not services but a buisness of conversion.
Im a Christian from America. I wont pretend to know whats going on there. But we dont back slavery in any way. One of my good friends here is Hindu. I always enjoy talking to him, he is a nice guy. We allow people to believe what they want. I dont think he would go out to hurt anyone. All races and religions are free here. As long as you dont hurt others. My best friend is black. He is a hard working man who built his own business from the ground up. Im proud to have him as a friend.
The purpose of converting Colored people into Christianity is to increase the number of Colored Slaves of racist and unjust White people. The perfect examples are Condi Rice and Allen West. Black Christians like these 2 believe that they'd be blessed by God if they bless White European Occupiers of Palestine who are God-Chosen b/c of the race they are born in. They think b/c of being born in God-Neglected Black race, they weren't promised Holy Land unlike their White Masters. Indians are smart!
Or what about the ridiculing and insulting of other faiths by Christians? You yourself as a Christian have shown this in many, MANY videos. The primary target being, yep that's right, Hindus.
GERONAMI ARE YOU A PEDOPHILE LIKE ALL XTIAN PRIESTS ? DO YOU LIKE FUCKING LITTLE BOYS IN THE ANUS? DO YOU LIKE THE TASTE OF FIVE YEAR OLD PENIS? YOU PEDO PENIS PUFFER
that bastard jesus was the son of a roman soldier who raped mary that hot prostitute who was supposedly a virgin. the only miracle in jeebuz' birth is that that little piece of shit didn't come out covered in semen, because thats all that nasty ho mary did was fuck in gangbangs. mary loved bukkake and thousands of men cumming on her face. jesus was a faggot and loved fucking his disciples. GERONAMI is a faggot thats why he loves jesus so much, hes hoping for an anal adventure with jeebuz. FAGGOT
As usual, Dr. Paul, you forget that the riots occured because Swami Laxmanananda was MURDERED BY MAOISTS PAID BY THE CHURCH because he was protesting against Christian evangelism. If apologists and evangelicals like you didn't spread lies about Hinduism and bribe and trick the Indian poor people into converting, none of this would've happened. Don't blame Hinduism, blame your OWN narrow-minded, bigoted, arrogant faith.
There is absolutely no evidence that Christians are behind the killing. The murder of Laxmanananda is openly claimed by Maoists. Then why do you harp on that again?That Hinduism has the most oppressive structures of all other religions is a well known fact. Untouchables do not have any place in Hinduism. So what is wrong if they convert to Islam of Buddhism or Christianity. No body can stop them from doing it.
Certainly the murder of Laxmanananda was claimed by the Maoists. You forget, however, that Maoists and Christians in India are hand in hand, as they are both comprised of Dalits who despise Hindus. Also, you forget that Laxmanananda was attacked before his death by Christians who badly beat him, so who else but Christians would work through Maoists to kill him after they failed once? And what else did Laxmanananda that would make people dislike him apart from oppose conversion?
" You that Maoists and Christians in India are hand in hand" NOT a shred of evidence to claim any nexus between maoists and Christians. None of judicial findings, fact finding teams, NHRC report, investigative journalists or even a snippet of news in support of this, except HINDUTVA propaganda. By ideology,belief, practice they are entirely different. Commies are atheists and Christians are theistic, what a sea of difference. A lame and dastardly claim for a genocide.?
You forget that the only controversial thing that Laxmananada did was oppose arrogant conversion efforts by Christian bigots like Dr. Paul. Tell me please, why would Maoists attack him? What did he do against Maoism? You also forget that CHRISTIANS attacked Laxmanananda before and beat him but failed to kill him. How do you explain that?
You also forget that Christian missionaries openly ridicule Hinduism is merely pagan superstition when it is one of the deepest and most profound spiritual traditions in the world. I am not saying that the violence was at all justified. But do you expect Hindus to sit around and do nothing while their religion is dragged through the mud by Christian fanatics and evangelicals? If Christian conversion stops, the violence too will end. But Christians like Dr. Paul are hateful.
@si91 " Laxmanananda was attacked before his death by Christians who badly beat him " . A BLATANT LIE. I have done a google search of the QUOTE. Not a single item to support.I have never read this piece of news in Front line Out look, India Today, or any prominent news agency. Some masked men attacked him but nothing to prove that they are Christians. ANOTHER PROPAGANDA. There is no evidence for any militant movement among Christians. YOU LIED
@secularvoice Most of the Englishmedia in India has missionary stakes and infiltrators planted by the latter.U may research on this. And moreover, most of the English media are manned by pseudo intellectuals who are no more than jugglers of words and phrases and idioms copying their style like damn fools from Americans whose ideas they may just alter to suit their aims. English was to serve merely as a medium for echnical education, but Colonialists used to brainwash Indians into self-haters.
@si91 There is nothing with me for Laxmananda as all top religious leaders (irrespective of religion) are utterly corrupt and they are the CURSE and SHIT of this nation. Didn't Hindus convert tribals into Hindu fold? (mark that Indigenous Tribals are not hindus) Didn't Hindus forcefully reconvert Christians back to Hinduism? Do not hindus convert white people in USA and European countries.?Didn't Ambedkar convert ten thousands of Dalits to Buddhism?
You seem to have a tendency to label all people of one group without separating individuals. First upper castes now religious groups. That is not fair. Laxmanananda was not corrupt, he was a simple renunciate monk. Hindus do convert tribals to the Hindu fold, but I do not think that that is at proper. But you forget that this is in response to Christian attempts to convert tribals. Also you forget that Hinduism itself absorbed many tribal customs in some areas.
Hindus do reconvert Christians, but that would not be necessary if Christians were not hungry to convert people and harvest souls. Hindus do convert people in the West but they do not vilify Christianity to do so, nor do they take advantage of the poor and uneducated as Christian missionaries do.
" do they take advantage of the poor and uneducated" this because you cannot find the kind of poverty and oppression in west as it is seen in Indian society. If christians are taking advantage of Lower caste, remember that Lower caste people are also taking advantage of Christians as they benefit from the education, social upliftment and dignity of living( which the Hindu society could not deliver them for centuries) and it is a give and take situation. What is the harm?
The harm is that Christians make Hinduism seem like nonsense, when it is one of the most profound, deep, and wise philosophies in the world. Hindus were making great leaps in logic, philosophy, meditation etc long before Christianity even existed. Yet, Christians despise Hinduism and tell Dalits that Hinduism is the source of their problems. They inspire hate between lower and upper castes, and destroy thousands of yeas of Hindu culture by making Dalits hate it.
" Hinduism seem like nonsense" the hindusims as it is practised now is an absolute non-sense.But the hinduism as in vedas is entirely different and there were truth seekers which I do acknowledge (not the religious aspect but the philosphy and the wonderful though structure) But if hinduism is an open religion (even charvakas- athiests in vedas) which accepts in a non-violent way the different though streams then DO RSS, VHP , Bajrangdal represent it? Why oppose conversion then?
Certainly some things Hindus do nowadays are ignorant. However, that is only because they are ignorant of the Hindu scriptures. Hinduism is certainly an open religion. Charvakas, Samkhyas, Buddhists, Jains, etc all were accepted by Hindu society in ancient times. The reason conversion should be opposed is because Christianity is different from Dharmic religions. Buddhists, Charvakas, etc, never said Hinduism was FALSE or SATANIC or DEMONIC. That is why they all lived peacefully.
" Hinduism is certainly an open religion " Hello this is my point, then why do you jump in the next step against conversion? Do not company's give advertisements about thier products? Why cant hindus also convert people? here is a difficulty. To which caste shall a newly converted hindu be allocated? Will an untouchable be granted the privileges of caste hindus? Any secular thinker like me will certainly tell that Hinduism is a cruel superstitious religion.
Hindus do not convert people because Hindus believe that anyone can follow dharma no matter what God he prays to. Yet Christians believe that Jesus and Jesus ALONE leads to heaven, and there is where problems occur. Again we are back to square one. You ask which caste a convert will convert to. He will not convert to any caste. He will be a normal human being. There is no caste in Hinduism. Anyone who says Hinduism is "cruel" or "superstitious" has not read the Upanishads.
" Hindus do not convert .." might be because people do not find any thing worthwhile to convert to hinduism so as to satisfy them except (lower caste people only want to abandon it at the earliest) inspite of several swamis who forcefully converted the tribals in chattisgarh at the point of trisul in 1990's with Judev singh as the leader evangelist. So the cruel salwa judum founder became a hindu, Mahendra Karma. So Hindus desperately tried to convert people Much more than christians
SO??? What does this have to do with Hinduism? Where in the Hindu scriptures does it say it is alright to convert people at the point of trisul? Simply because Hindus convert people does not mean that Christians are justified in using lies, bribes, and threats to do so. Hindu forceful conversion is a RESPONSE to Christian conversions. I am not saying it is right. But it would all stop if Christians stopped converting using arrogance and tricks.
However, Christians make Dalits HATE Hindus. Buddhists never hated. Jains never hated. Ashoka was a patron of both Buddhism and Hinduism. But Christians do hate. That is why during the Goa Inquisition the Portuguese persecuted Hindus. They see Hinduism as inferior. I am not saying that BJP and Bajrangdal are right in sometimes resorting to violence. But this all could stop if Christians were not arrogant and did not see themselves as superior.
The only reason India is poor, recall, is because of FOREIGN rule. Rule by Muslims and CHRISTIANS (British Raj) I might add. So before this, Dalits were socially uplifted. It was Muslim and Christian vilification of Hinduism that made things worse.
Hinduism certainly does not have an oppressive caste system. India does. You confuse social system with religion. Nowhere in any Hindu scripture is the caste system prescribed. In fact, several places in the Hindu scriptures it says that all human kind are equal, that they should be like spokes on a chariot wheel, that the world is one family.
" Hinduism certainly does not have an oppressive caste system ",
Friend, do not try to fool me. Caste system got institutionalized with Sankaracharya, and well laid in Manusmriti which explicitly states and molten lead should be cast into the ear of shudra who hear the vedas (I have an end less list to to it). Brahmin kshatrriya, Vaishya, shudra classification is the EXPLICIT creation of Hinduism.False Religions (what ever it might be) deceived man kind.
Wrong. Shankaracharya was originally casteist but one day he while on his way to the Vishwanath Temple, Sankara came upon an untouchable accompanied by four dogs. When asked to move aside by Shankara's disciples, the untouchable replied: "Do you wish that I move my ever lasting Ātman ("the Self"), or this body made of flesh?" Realizing that the untouchable was none other than god Shiva himself, and his dogs the four Vedas, Shankara prostrated himself before him.
" Shankaracharya was originally .." I am not here to discuss the divinity of any religious heads and I do not believe in it. There are a lot of stories regarding sankaracharya and you cannot verify all these (for lack historical evidence) Kerala history is not clearly known before 1000 AD, But he was the main proponent of caste system is a well established fact which every one accepts.
I am not saying Shankaracharya was "divine" so I don't know why you're addressing that. There certainly is historical evidence for this particular incident. The poem itself: Manisha Panchakam. Certainly Shankaracharya supported the caste system, but HE CHANGED. The caste system was part of his society. It is natural that he would accept it originally, but the fact that he later rejected it shows his greatness and open-mindedness.
George Washington was a slave owner. Does that not make him a great man, the liberator of America? Similarly, Shankaracharya was a great man for his time. And you keep forgetting that he REJECTED the caste system when he got older and understood the Divine within us all.
@si91 I can't believe that a staunch caste believer progressively self corrected himself and became an opponent of caste sysytem. If so then why not his corrective teaching find any place in any historical records, in many religious sermons, poems, that Sankaracharya rejected caste system ? (When ashoka rejected war after Kalinga it was a tremendous anecdote in history) Why did not such a great person influence the hindu society to reject caste?
If no staunch caste believers ever corrected themselves, then there would never have been any progress or reform movements. The fact that there WAS proves that people CAN change, like Shankaracharya did. The proof is Manisha Panchakam itself. That poem he wrote later in his life refutes the caste system.
A poem in itself cannot be a historical evidence and it cannot be used to refute a bunch of evidence that makes people believe that sankaracharya institutionalized caste system. I did not say that people cannot change. But there is nothing to suspect that sankarachrya retracted or changed. Any religious leaders who propagates hatred (eg. Ignatius loyola, francis Xavier, several other hate masters, who ranks equal with manu and sankaracharya )are enemies to mankind
Shankaracharya did not institutionalize the caste system. He could not have; he was not a political leader. How can the poem not be evidence? You get the idea that Shankaracharya was a casteist from his writings. This poem is also one of his writings. So if one writing supports the caste system and a later one opposes it, it is evidence that the writer changed his views over time. It is unfair that you are blaming Shankaracharya for being a victim of his society.
Plus, even though ashoka rejected caste system, it still remained. One man cannot destroy caste system, though Shankara DID fight against it, as Ashoka and countless others did. What we need to do is recognize that it is a social and not a religious problem and target the society, not unfairly target Hinduism, which is blameless.
" Shankara DID fight against it, " absolutely no evidence that sankaracharya fought against caste system. Not even a folk lore any where in kerala about it. No historians ever supported it. If he retracted, then caste would have already disappeared from India centuries back. His disciples would have perpetuated it. But nothing like that. Indeed there was slave trade in Kerala till 1785 and it was the British who stopped it. Your argument is base less
After Manisha Panchakam obviously Shankaracharya would have preached against it and his disciples would have followed him. Just because he preached against it does not mean that Kerela would not have caste system anymore. Ashoka ruled all of India and rejected caste system and it remained. Does that mean he did not reject it? Also slave trade does not equal caste system. India never had slaves. Slavery was introduced by the Muslims, so this is irrelevent.
Asoka was not a propenent of caste system nor did the buddhists. But teh buddhsit ashrams in kerala (eg.Kdungalloor) were forcefully occupied by the later resurgence of Brahmins-priest, as it happened all through india. Hence caste system appeared in a more ferocious way. " India never had slaves " Abundant evidences to prove that slavery existed in kerala (the birth place of sankaracharya) till 1785. And secretly till 1960 and ironically it was the naxallites who stopped it
No, the resurgance of Brahmins was not forceful. You forget that Buddhism changed Hinduism from more ritual based to more philosophy based. Both caste system and slavery were social institutions, not religious ones. Why do you blame social aspects on a religion that is not based on them? Even if caste system and slavery existed, WHAT DOES IT HAVE TO DO WITH HINDUISM???? Which Hindu scripture supports such stupid practices, tell me? Unless you support this, you are simply hateful.
I have told enough about Manu sankaracharya, and even the very blood of hindu culture is caste ridden (as it is the case with the oppressive traits of religions) You tell that it is just a social problem. In india Religion ruled everything social and social product means that it originated from Hindu religion only. No body was enough secular in tradition indian society to institute such a powerful institution as caste system.
And recall that I have REFUTED all your claims about Shankaracharya and Manu. You say that Hinduism is to blame but you have yet to PROVE IT. Religion was indeed important, but NOWHERE IN HINDU DOCTRINE IS CASTE SYSTEM SUPPORTED. Japan had a caste system to persecute the native Ainu people. Chinese Manchus persecuted the Han Chinese. African Igbo tribe had caste system. But neither Japanese religion nor Chinese religion nor African religion has anything to do with caste system.
@si91 " you have yet to PROVE IT. " I have already proven it you denied it on your baseless arguments. I cannot press any more harder than that. " HINDU ... CASTE SYSTEM SUPPORTED ". I have already told that caste system, is the basic tenet of Hinduism both socially and historically which is an established fact and you cannot argue against it though written in bold face. A max 500 words limit do not allow me to write every thing in full
You say you've proved it, but all you've said is the fact that it was practiced. My arguments are not baseless. I refuted your claims against Manusmriti, showing how it was written over a period of time and is not sacred scripture. I refuted your claims against Shankara and the Purushua Sukta as well. Caste system was part of Indian society, but you have not proved it was part of Hinduism. Unless you prove that by quoting scripture, which you have not done, your argument fails.
Your claims about China and Japan are not correct. The Japanese persecuted the Ainu SPECIFICALLY. for being born into a different ethnic group, as the Manchus persecuted the Han people in the Qing Dynasty for being born in a different ethnic group. So too did the Brahmins, but unless you quote scripture to prove that Hinduism sanctions the caste system your arguments are baseless. Simply because it was popular does not make it Hindu. That is the ad populum fallacy.
My point is that the main stream religion of their society did not cordon off and quarantine the oppressed as it was seen india, where the dalits and tribals ar prevented from entering temple premises even and the mainstream hindu religion supports it. Nothing to his scale happened in other countries. Branding shudra as coming from the feet of Brahma, and branding people as untouchables
though all are brown skinned, IT IS THE MAINSTREAM HINDUISM THAT HAS DONE IT.
Yes, the mainstream religion DID do that in China and Japan. Japan and China also persecuted Buddhists, as you claim Hinds did (though they did not, actually). Are you going to blame their religions for that? Mainstream Hindu religion does not support it. You keep saying that it does without support. Just because many Hindus support it does not mean Hinduism does. Hindu doctrine that preaches equality does not change even if people violate it 1,000,000 times.
Also I have dealt with the Purusha Sukta part about shudras. You choose to ignore it (again). Either present SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE that Hinduism supports the caste system or concede the point. Either way, don't spread lies.
The form of class division as in Japan or china, however cruel it was, did not condemn a person by birth and denied him the privileges as seen in india, where the lower caste is entirely cordoned off from temple, schools public spaces, even for drinking water. Neither did Shintoism (japanese) or Confucianism had allotted a sanctimonious face for caste system as Hinduism did.
So why is Hinduism singled out unfairly like this? None of your hate speech against Hinduism proves anything except for the fact that you are ignorant of scripture.
@si91 The brahmin resurgence was a slow and subtle process, declaring the upper fold of the society a brahmins or equivalent social status, and wooing them, giving kings enormous religious support for all his evils (like the evil nexus between religion and politics now) dividing the society along caste lines, then oppressing them.this is exactly the scenario that happened in Kerala and Maharastra a millenniem back. A buddhist kerala became hindu caste dominated hence
Yes...so? What does Hinduism have to do with it? I am going to ask you this until you either prove that Hindu scriptures support caste system or concede the point. Buddhism declined in India because Hinduism absorbed it. Brahmins did not destroy Buddhism. Some of the greatest Buddhist masters in India were Brahmins like Nagarjuna, Asanga, and Ksitigarbha. Buddha's own dynasty was descended from the sage Angirasa
" Buddhism declined in India.." because they were not able to counter the cunning tactics and connivances of the brahmin priests , while it flourished in china and far eastern countries where there was no such countering forces. As I have told you that buddhist ashram in Kodungaloor was conquered by brahmin priest by chanting vulgar songs (a practice till today) in the vicinity. Some other ahsrams were conquered by force (eg. parashurama folk lore) and kiling
That is not historically based. Recall that many of the greatest Indian Buddhists were BRAHMINS like Nagarjuna and Asanga, and even Buddha's own royal lineage was descended from the sage Angirasa. You have conveniently not addressed this. You also forget the role of Islamic invasions in destroying Buddhist universities like Nalanda and Takshashila.
Brahmins are human too. Some brahmins were certianly bad people, but many were good. To smear ALL of Hinduism based on some actions of a few that are not scripturally supported is not fair. It's basically reverse caste system (discriminating against upper caste rather than lower). You keep ignoring all the good things Brahmins have done. That is not fair at all.
Who told brahmins are not human beings? My best are friends are brahmins (FYI ankur choudhary and Manas Mukherjee were two of my best friends) I am not talking about the every day bhattacharaya, choudhary, banerjee, bhatt. But about the institutionalized oppression seen in the hindu society. Please understand my point.
I understand your point completely. I too oppose caste system, though I am a brahmin descended from the sage Kaundinya. The fact that the caste system is still practiced by many Hindus does not mean Hinduism suddenly supports it. They are all violating the Hindu doctrine of equality, of God being present in ALL living creatures. However, you unfairly characterize Hinduism as casteist and ALL Brahmins as evil, manipulative, and hateful, when that was never the case.
You are severly mistaken '" ALL Brahmins as evil, .." Please read my earlier comment. If you have a version of Hinduism that teaches all mankind is equal,caste system is cruel, then my earnest plea is please go and preach this loud in the ears of many hindu fanatics who torture many a dalit and tribal, who kill Christians and Muslims, and convince them that the form of Hinduism that they are practising is not correct and request them to be tolerant to missionaries and muslims.
It is not my personal version that I made up. You obviously have not read the Vedas. Hinduism is based on recognizing the Divine within us all, making us all equal. I certainly intend to preach to the hindu fanatics. I also hope you have learned from our discussion that Hinduism is not the evil, oppressive creed you say it is.
@si91 I have read some portions of vedas (an english translation though I cannot remember or annotate any of it partly due due to my lack of religious feelings) I have copy of manusmriti in full (again english translation). But for me an english daily will give more valuable information than religious texts. It is the social problems that affect me and annoy me than discussing which religion is better
But what do social problems have to do with religions? If the religion's creed is against the social problem, it doesn't matter if billions of people contribute to that social problem in the name of that religion. They are violating that religion's precepts in its name. That is all. Just because people are doing something in the name of a religion doesn't mean that that religion automatically condones their actions. That's all I'm trying to tell you here.
(1)Again provoking discussion fine. Nobody is patient enough to sit up and read all upanishads and vedas for deep R&D, to look for the pure streams of religion. Even if a stream like that exists in books it has no meaning because nobody's practising it.The oppression of dalits that happens in India is aggressively led by hindutva right wing and sanctified by prominent hindu saduhs hence people identify it as a problem of hindu religion. No doubt ambedkar and followers embraced buddhism
(2) So if you feel that hindu religion is misrepresented and it's dharmas are not followed by main stream hindus , then it's your urgent duty to cry into the ears of these fanatics to stop killing dalits, muslims, and missionaries for the sake of religion, and to work for genuine reformation with in hindu society. I have seen when ever Christianity fell in to hypocrisy there were always people from inside to make counter movements or reformation.
(3)There were indeed genuine reformers like the great Swami dayanada Saraswati (hindu right wingers disliked him for his radical teachings). Sree narayana Guru in kerala was another reformer in kerala who left such a powerful revolution. None of such people are found now except some god men like Nityanada (bangalore) and Brahama dev (delhi). If this do not happen people will automatically leave Hinduism (if not for Christianity some other religion).
Yes, of course we need good gurus to reform the society. Organizations like Ramakrishna Mission and others work towards reform. You also forget that BJP does that too. They are not all evil. BJP would not be fanatical sometimes if missionaries stopped converting poor people and tribals. Blame the missionaries
" Blame the missionaries", I honor Ramkrishna mission fro their great works, but sorry to differ BJP is the main enemy of a secular atmosphere in india Including the pulling down of Babri Masjid, pogrom on Muslims In Gujarat, and many more in the list.BJP attacks conversion because of the fear that lower caste people will rise up snatch power from the upper caste domination due to the education and uplift that missionaries provide to the lower caste people
Not true. BJP is not against Dalit rights, only against people trying to oppose Hindu nationalism. BJP is not against the education that missionaries provide, only the fact that they teach Dalits to hate Hinduism. You keep ignoring this point.
Friend, do not teach me about BJP I know it very well.BJP has a strong covert upper caste dominating cliche in it who want to impose the four caste stratification back to india. Their atrocities against Muslims in Gujarat is well documented (NHRC 75 page report under Jt. J.S. Verma). BJP is a hugely corporate lobbying party, having secret nexus with Mossad and CIA , oppressors of tribals and Dalits in general (eg. chattisgarh govt.)
(4) Have you ever asked why missionaries are winning over people? because they work among the triabls and dalits, open schools, gives them honour and dignity of life which the so called Hinduism never gave. What right do you have to say that missionaries are doing wrong, who represents a religion that do not allow dalit to drink water, walk in the streets, keep him even miserable than a cattle? Stop atrocities against dalitsand help them. If U cant do, allow somebody else to do
Missionaries do that so that people will CONVERT. It is not a coincidence that most Christians in India are low caste. Upper castes are harder to bribe. I am not saying helping Dalits is bad. Red Cross and Doctors Without Borders and Peace Corps and other organizations do that WITHOUT CONVERTING THEM. But Christians make Dalits hate Hinduism, and, like you, unfairly blame Hinduism for their problems. This is unfair.
" Upper castes are harder .." Look only the needy drink water isn' it? The majority of the upper caste eat up on the labours of the poor. So it is natural that only the poor will listen to missionaries. And the upper castes (in general) are interested in looting them. " Christians make Dalits hate .." It is the other way round, Most of the Dalits hate Hinduism (ambedkar is an example) even before they interacted with Christians.
" Christians encourage this " I think you are mistaken, I have had discussions with many christian friends and I found they have very little time even to discuss about hindu-Christian-Muslim issues and much less about any hindu hatred. Neither do I see in their publications any noticeable anti-hindu rhetoric (just visit some prominent Christian web sites in India) . But the case is different if you see some Dalit websites (anti-hindu sentiment is extremely strong)
More over I have met several Elite from Uraons (a tribal community using kujur as title) who have been converted to Christianity as early as 1870's by the Belgian missionaries in Ranchi and Gumla. There are Doctors, engineers, lawers, even IAS officers, PhD's, the christian tribals even run a reputed Business school In Ranchi. I wondered what would have been their plight if they remained in the hindu fold. Conversion have only done good for them but BAD for brahmin domination
If the upper castes and lower castes realize that caste system is not supported by Hinduism, then they will be able to have equality and have doctors, lawyers, PhDs while still remaining Hindus. I know dalit doctors in US who are hindus. There is no caste system in India. So the problem is with the social system in India not with Hinduism.
" lawyers, PhDs while still remaining Hindus. " Virtually impossible. A hindu dalit is not even allowed to drink water, to be seated in dignity in a school, to do any other job than bearing shit (in Andhra many dalits do this job). Then how can they even think about becoming a PhD when they are psychologically and socially oppressed. Very very lucky few hindu dalits may make it out to main stream but their numbers are much much less than Dalit Christians (I have met people)
They make less than Dalit Christians because the church gives Dalit Christians money. Like I said, some Indian Christian communities retain caste. Caste system is not a Hindu concept. It is present in some Indian Muslim and Christian communities also. Caste needs to be abolished without conversion or Hinduism will also needlessly perish.
(1) Dear friend I do not want to continue this discussion much forward as I doubt whether it will benefit you and me. " church gives ..money" As I have told I verily have seen the upper caste Christian converts retaining the dalit prejudice. Worst example is Kerala Roman Catholics, Syrian Jacobites (differente streams of traditional Christians). So there is no such money pumping by these bourgeousie for Dalit progress.
Exactly. So there is nothing to be gained by converting Dalits. Instead of converting Dalits should fight the caste system alone, not Hinduism. By attacking Hinduism in converting away from it, Dalits will never be free because they won't attack the root source of the problem: Indian society.
" So there is nothing to be gained by converting Dalits. " So much I have discussed about conversion I do not want to elaborate; Still. You are right there is nothing to be gained by conversion but for the Brahminical heirachry and not for Dalits. Dalits know that they have much much to gain (at least escape the cruel bondage of mainstream Hindu caste domination) and hence they do convert. Nobody can prevent them
I KEEP TELLING you that the caste system is not part of Hinduism. Why do you say "Hindu caste system" then? Dalits cannot escape the caste system via conversion because caste system is an Indian social problem. You keep missing that. So long as Dalits ignore this problem, caste system will always remain and there will always be attacks on missionaries for trying to destroy Hinduism.
(2) But the reason is there is strong bond and dignity of life which is in bred in Christian way of life which gives a strong platform of launch for dalits, which a caste ridden Hindu mainstream society could never give. A dalit Hindu have to to cross 10 fold more social and religious obstacles than a Christian Dalit to attain some social status. More over caste system is the import of the Upper caste Hindu converts in to Indian Christianity.
There is no strong bond of dignity in life that Christianity has that Hinduism doesn't have. There are plenty of bad Christians and plenty of good Hindus, and plenty of bad Hindus and plenty of good Christians. Saying that being a Christian gives you a bond that Hinduism cannot give is misunderstanding Hinduism.
(1)" There is no strong bond..Christianity" YOU ARE WRONG. From My experience the very reason for the tremendous advance of Christians in kerala (Dalits or Tradiationals) in the realm of HDI or literacy,living standards (again I request you to visit the districts in central part of Kerala, a Christian dominated region and see for yourself) is the strong family and social bonds. There is a village (where almost all are NRI) Kumbanadu where there is no Liquor shop
(2) Police cases are extremely rare and police desperately fill their quota of cases through traffic checking. The entire Christian belt is relatively much peaceful .Hindu community too have learned the strong bonding in Christianity and hence they replicated the same through NSS and SNDP and they too are progressing. The reason for very high HDI in Kerala is this social factor.Please ask some malayalees whether I am wrong or not.
(3)" There are plenty of bad Christians" May be. However bad Christians are (eg. my own right leaning relatives), the emphasis on charity , atleast in theory, is so deeply inbred from a very child hood (you will find very very few beggars in Kerala; a surprise for western social pundits) Motivation for high education and relatively deep civic sense (evidence- you travel by a second class train to kerala)
There is also that strong bond and dignity in Hinduism, only has been lost. It needs to be recovered. The difference is that Christians can only get that strong bond by converting others while Hindus show it automatically. When Christians and Muslims violate that bond by insulting Hinduism, then Hindus naturally fight back. But under regular circumstances, Hinduism has that strong bond and dignity. It is why Buddhists and Jains and atheists were never persecuted.
@si91 In the same breath, The converted Christians in kerala (from lower caste) now occupy good standards of living compared to their hindu counterpart who are still in adversity. You please pay a visit to these places and see for yourself. Conversion have only done them good and they know it well. So they do it. Except Hindu society Reform from with in Lower caste people will just abandon it and however hard the upper caste-cliche try to oppress them.
Conversion makes them abandon thousands of years of Hindu culture. They need not convert if upper castes and lower castes realize that Hinduism does not support caste system. Rather than support false allegations against Hinduism you should tell these Dalits that Hinduism does not have caste system so they do not hate Hindus needlessly.
" you should tell .." see I am not a social worker,and my realm is in Scientific Research and little time to do these.I belong to a traditional Christian family in kerala with absolutely no affinity to it's traditions (traditional Christians (upper caste converts) in kerala are as much caste oppressors of Dalits as hindu upper castes) But I will put my effort to understand Ur point that caste system is not a part of genuine Hindu philosophy.But no support for anti-conversion.
If caste system is not part of Hinduism, what need is there to convert? Rather than convert, both upper castes and lower castes should understand proper dharma.
" thousands of ...culture. " I cordially invite you to come to kerala and see how here Hindus and Christians and Muslims live relatively peaceful. there were indeed conversions and the converted Christians did not immediately go western,marriages are arranged, food,clothing, housing and even the very attitude is Indian. Conversions only enriched kerala and diversified its population and culture
So if you are so burdened about their way of teaching Hinduism as wrong, I have already told yo the best you can do. You ignite a reformation in Hindu society. Reject the caste system allow the lower castes to enter temple and be priests,stop atrocities against dalits by Hindu uppercastes (read this week front line). As long as this is not done no wonder more and more Dalits will listen to missionaries and you can do nothing against except writing comments on youtube like this.
And I have told you the best way to get rid of the caste system is to blame Indian SOCIETY, not Hinduism. This means that you should discourage anyone who converts to "leave the caste system" since converting DOES NOT CHANGE THE NATURE OF INDIAN SOCIETY and thus does not dismantle the caste system at all. So long as you realize that Hinduism is not to be blamed for the caste system, and that conversion does not help the society, we are in agreement, and need not discuss further.
the great hindu pilgrim site Sabarimala, when hindu pilgrims reach there first they give respect on their way to a Muslim deity. Many traditional Christian churches almost look almost Hindu in attire and worship. So conversions did not cause any trouble to its' religious friendly society (religious riots are extremely rare) So Ur point " Conversion makes them abandon ..Hindu culture. " needs to be rechecked
If they still retain respect for Hindu gods, then that is DESPITE conversion, not because of it. Christianity says those who worship "false gods" go to hell. Missionaries don't like it when converts worship Hindu deities along with Jesus. They want converts to worship Jesus ALONE.
See, why do you worry about which deity people worship. My friend Ankur (a bengali brahmin) hates all deities and worships and have never gone to a temple for he has atheist inclinations. Is he anti-Indian. Tribals do not worship any hindu diety. Are they anti -Indian? Indian culture cannot be defined by the subset of dieties, but it is much much deeper than that. As long as a religious adherent do not ask to kill and put to fire others houses,it is tolerable for me what ever they teach
I am not saying not worshiping Hindu deities is bad. I am saying HATE for them is bad. Christians view Hindu deities as false gods. So long as they see Christianity as better than Hinduism, there will always be animosity. It is the fact that Christianity creates needless animosity via conversion that I detest.
@si91 " Hindu deities..HATE for them" I can give still further hatred for deities among progressive hindus,eg, Most of the Research students in National Institutes of India are anti-religious. Is that BAD? Me too are against some of the needless animosity which some unwise preachers create. But that is extremely rare case. most of the time it is the calculated attack of the Right wingers to prevent the Dalit progress through Missionaries
I also hope that together we can stop the missionary activities of Christians who hate Hindus. Hindus should be tolerant, yes, but not of Christians who hate Hinduism and want it destroyed. They should be reasoned with and taught that Hinduism too has much good in it. They should not preach that Hinduism is false or satanic or that Jesus is the only way to salvation. There is no good hating other religions, but that is what missionaries preach.
No stopping of any missionary activity (either by hindus or christains) as long as it is not at the point of spear or gun or trishul or sword. It is the basic constitutional right of an Indian citizen to practice his faith and teach and advertise it. You and me have no right to curtail the freedom of conscience of another person. Let the Christians preach about faith and so do Hindus. But not a pogrom as in Gujarat and Kashmir and Orissa for faith
Certainly Christians have freedom of speech and practice as per the constitution. But is it not wrong for Christians to propagate hate speech and false propaganda against Hinduism by spewing misconceptions like the caste system into the ears of ignorant Dalits? I do not think you would like it if someone lied, bribed, threatened, and or otherwise manipulated you into accepting their religion if you were at a disadvantage. Why should the Christians be allowed to do this?
After 30 years of anti-conversion bill in 8 states how many genuine cases (not FIR's) of fraudulent conversion were brought up? Not a single one. Lower caste people are indeed eager to exit Hinduism if not for faith but for atleast for the so called bribe (education, social upliftement, dignity of life). No need cry into the ears of dalits that mainstream Hinduism is their worst enemy. They know it well better than you and me. because they experience it real life.
See, in USA people (mostly afro-americans) leave mainstream Christianity and embrace Islam, because of racism shown by whites. Same thing happens in India for hinduism. Dalits know well that for centuries they were ill-treated by hindu masters and they are now leaving hinduism. In orissa the it was the clear cut hindu upper class who have tortured and killed them. Then which dalit will be patient enough to listen to pure Vedas and Puranas as long as this happens?
Sure Africans leave Christianity for Islam. But is it Christianity's fault that there is racism? Did Christ say "Be racist"? No, he did not. Christianity is not to blame for racism, similarly, Hinduism is not to blame for caste system. Upper caste people who believe in the caste system need to read and understand the Vedas correctly and allow lower castes to learn them too. Then only there can be reform. Conversion makes this impossible by making Dalits hate upper castes.
It is the indeed the fault of the mainstream professing white racist Christians ( those who are in the Bible belt, mainly Texas (buckle of the belt) and around) that many afro-blacks leave Christianity. I am not bothered about the religious canons and ancient writings but about the day to day real life. The same story is happening in India. Some of tribals & dalits escape to Buddhism, Some to Christianity, some Naxallism, all becoz of a common oppressor the main stream Hinduism
Hinduism is based on "religious canons and ancient writings." If you want to criticize the caste system, I have no problem with that. Just remember that the caste system is not part of Hinduism. So tribals and dalits need not convert away. It doesn't eliminate the caste system and only makes them hate more.
Let me admit that the piece of information " caste system is not part of Hinduism " is entirely new to me and surprises me, may be you are dwelling in the philosophical realm. I will take some effort in future to read and understand on my own about this. But I will surely say that apart from the domain of philosophy, the main stream practising Hinduism is strongly caste oriented (my single reason for high anger )
" Conversion makes this impossible" , Conversion gave Indian dalits and tribals a voice to speak out. I really wonder whether you have understood one letter about the sad plight of Dalits and tribals in India. I have made reasonably enough travels and have seen it by sight. Dailts as a whole hate upper caste even with out conversion, it is so deep in their psyche, because it is their main identified social enemy. So plz stop telling that conversion makes them hate uppercaste.
This hatred needs to stop. Conversion only feeds the flames. It doesn't solve anything. It doesn't give tribals and dalits a voice. Tribals and Dalits can have a voice even as Hindus. But conversion simply adds another difference between dalits and other Indians and that is not proper.
@si91 " understand the Vedas correctly.." You are so worried about preserving Vedas while the hungry deprived population is worried about what they eat and drink. The classic failure of indian mind set. it fails to understand that there are a huge deprived population but hell-bent on sending rocket to moon, IPL hoax, super power status, and so on. Give the hungry to eat, feed him cloth him, allow him to drink water, walk in public space then vedas will have a meaning to him other wise NOT
You misunderstand me. I AM worried about hungry, poor people. The solution is for their upper caste oppressors to understand that the caste system is not in the Vedas. Then they will stop abusing Dalits and treat them equally. Then they will no longer be considered inferior. As long as upper castes think that caste system is part of Hinduism they will abuse Dalits thinking that Hinduism supports it.
" You misunderstand me. " Look, I do not underrate your sincerity, and I value it. My point is that hindu society needs great reformers in the Modern days( I do not find any body). That lacunae is fettered by VHP and Bajrangdal and goondas like that who will bring more and more extinction to Hinduism than anybody else by their advocacy of militancy, violence and misrepresentation of true Hindu spirit as you have told. Please focus on these than conversion issue
"Not all BJP advocate" May be (like Madan Lal Khurana, Arun Jaitley, May be Vaj payee too) but MAJORITY of BJP advocates violent brutal methods against minorities (no need list;everybody knows who they are) and it is well documented by their own interviews testimonials and actions. Muslims do not convert then why were they burned in Gujarat?Why atrocities against hindu Dalits , Tribals in chattisgarh(conversion is not the issue here) This is the policy of the BJP and nothing else.
BJP only brutalize muslims because Muslims oppose India. Pakistan was created because muslims demanded their own state, and India lost land that had been Indian for 5000 years. Pakistanis don't just want Kashmir; they want the Mughal empire back. There are terrorists in India itself who support Pakistan and want India gone.
See," Pakistan " issue cannot discussed in this short platform and I do not want to digress into that. But the reason for pogrom in Gujarat is none of these (NHRC report is the most authentic piece of evidence)Just a cruel and Barbaric tactic to polarize Hindu Muslim votes.Electoral win for BJP at the expense of 2000 Muslim lives. I strongly disagree with you on this point. Your justification for BJP state sponsored terrorism against minorities is base less.
I am not saying the attacks are justified. I am saying that radical BJPs (a minority) express their anger in the wrongly. If all the majority of BJPs were violent, the government would have collapsed during the administration of Vajpayee
So if you are so worried of Christians are converting the dalits, you leave your comforts behind and go and work among the dalits and tribals and show them love, give them honour and dignity, openly ask VHP and Bajrang dal to stop atrocities against dalit Christians and Muslims, ask other hindu fellow men to do the same. Instead of this if you try to prevent conversion by Law and guns, YOU WILL NEVER win. More and more dalits will leave Hinduism for sure
Of course violence is not the answer. I oppose and detest all religious violence and hate. Did India win independence with violence? No. Gandhiji won with ahimsa. Hinduism has always been tolerant. Dalai Lama, a Buddhist has refuge in India. Jews and Zoroastrians and Bahai faith also do. Violence against Christians started AFTER Independence, when conversions happened more often. Missionaries and their hate forces Hindus to violence because Christian missionaries hate Hinduism .
@si91 " Violence against Christians started AFTER Independence " Totally wrong Violence against Christians were as far back as 1780 (check kerala christian history)by paliathachan under veluthampy dalawa. There was violence among Hindu society, just remember partition, hindu-Muslim violence in ahmedabad as early as 1930's. Once the upper-caste betrayed the freedom fighters and became the brown colonizers, violence against minorities were on a sharp rise.Not due to missionary activity
Yes. And WHY was there violence against Christians? Because Christians hate Hinduism and call it false and Satanic. Muslims did that too. It is no coincidence that the most violence was against them. In ancient times, there was no violence against Buddhists, Jains, etc. Why? Because they never insulted Hinduism. Hindus are people too. Hinduism does not deserve the ignorant insults Muslims and Christians use against it.
George Washington only fought for the whites in America but never for the blacks. he initially hinted the abolition of slavery but later retracted. Many progressive whites do not consider him as a great man (the great Indian disease of adoring historical figures). Many American freedom fighters were racists. So that don't contribute anything our present discussion.
You miss the point. Certainly American freedom fighters were racist. But that has nothing to do with Christianity. Similarly, many great Hindus were casteist. But the Hindu scriptures themselves don't support casteism. They reject it. So don't judge Hinduism by the caste system that its scriptures REJECT.
American freedom fighters never claimed to represent Christianity and nothing to do with it(infact they were against a parochial state and were secularvoices , their slogan " church without a pope state with out a king"). It was effort of a certain section of Christians that floated anti-slavery movement. But here the case is not so the great patriarchs of Hinduism were staunch castiest and oppressors. This is the factor that angers me
So? Where in Hindu scriptures is casteism supported. You cannot take non-Hindu concepts and say that they are Hindu concepts just because certain Hindus practice them. That is unfair.
In response to this incident, he composed the poem Manisha Panchakam, which declared caste irrelevent. Manusmriti does mention that molten lead punishment but recall that it was a document that was composed over a long period of time. We know this because the laws contradict each other. Some glorify shudras and others oppress them, indicating that originally there was equality between castes that was later lost. Manusmriti is a LEGAL document, not a scripture.
" several .....equal " purusha-sukta of Rigveda mentions shudra came from the feet of the Brahma while brahmins are from the face. The very concept of untouchability is practiced in all hindu temples. How come you tell me that Caste system is not the creation of hindu religion? Do you claim that Manu and Sankaracharya are rejected by hindu religion?The place Kalady (where sankaracharya was born) in Kerala is a holy place. (Apologies to my close Hindu friends).
If you had read the purusha sukta in its ENTIRITY, you understand that it mentions that the ENTIRE UNIVERSE came from God. So God is at the core of both the brahmin, the shudra, the animals, and inanimate objects, so we are all equal. Also you forget that the purusha suktam says that because all four castes must work together like the body parts that make the body function. If the feet, or the head, or the arms, or legs are lost, the body dies. So shudras equal and needed.
I am not saying that Manu and Shankaracharya were rejected. How could I say that? Shankaracharya is one of the most respected Hindu teachers. It is clear you did not read my post about Shankaracharya's rejection of the caste system. Also, you assume that there was only one Manu. But many people who wrote laws called themselves Manu as a pen name. Are we to assume that ever man named Adam was the Adam from the Garden of Eden? Of course not. Same goes with Manu.
Certainly untouchability is practiced. But plenty of countries practice things that the religion forbids. Christianity should not be characterized by slavery or the crusades, or witch burnings. So too should Hinduism not be characterized by untouchability and the caste system.
The problem with Christianity is that the new testament (which they ought to practice)describes in length about the Love to mankind and speaks strongly against any divisions. there is no dogmatic support for caste division in christianity, so the quotes from the bible could not be employed for justifying racism (though criminal rascists in US are from bible belt) . But HINDU mythology actively supports it and hence caste system got deeply entrenched
You forget (again) that the mythological texts are not to be taken literally but allegorically. They were also written at various periods in Indian history, some of which were periods when the caste system was rigid. But the mythological texts are just that: mythology. They never happened. Taking mythology literally is not correct.
You forget that some of the greatest Hindu sages, like Vyasa and Valmiki were low caste, yet they are revered because at that time, there was no caste system. I am not saying it is wrong for untouchables to convert, only that it is wrong for Christian missionaries to delude them into thinking that Hinduism is to blame for untouchability.
" Vyasa and Valmiki .." donot wash for the brutal caste system that hinduism practices toady. " Hinduism is to blame for untouchability.. " As I have told (short due to lack of space) Hinduism is to be blamed for caste system whether there are conversions or not. Why caste hindus in Tamil-nadu forms human chain agaisnt the entrance of untouchables in temples, and the same thing repeats in rajasthan, Bihar all through cow-belt?
What do you mean "wash the brutal caste system"? Vyasa and Valmiki WERE low caste. Vyasa was the son of Satyavati, a fisherwoman. Valmiki was a woodcutter who became a thief. Both are considered great saints because the caste system was not present during their lives. Unless you provide scriptural evidence that Hinduism supports the caste system, you are merely being ignorant and hateful.
Again you assume that just because there is low caste oppression in India it is Hinduism's fault. You keep ignoring my point. Should we say Christianity is evil because of the crusades and with burnings and slavery that once went on in Christian countries? Why can you not give Hinduism the same credit?
THE GUY WHO POSTED IS A CONVERT DALIT BASTAD, BORN TO A FAT MONKEY..I GOT ONE DOUBT BRO..! DID UR MOM GAVE BIRTH TO U OR SHE SHAT U OUT..!! THIS IS GENUINE.. KINDLY REPLY .. NO OFFENCE..DEAR.. U LOOK LIKE U CAME OUT OF A SHIT HOLE.. CONVERT
pvivekvijayan 8 months ago
you fucking christian bastard...shut the fuck up
cruxr100 9 months ago
Christianity in India is curse to the country and Islam is a boon to the country. My wish India should be a Hindu country. This will become true one day.
kbalajie1 1 year ago
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@kbalajie1 what a idiotic comment
pcdaniel7 11 months ago
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what a idiotic comment
pcdaniel7 11 months ago
@kbalajie1 hey dude wat Christian has done so far till, Christian help the poor in india.. dick head mind ur words
jonhank619 11 months ago
@jonhank619 They have spoiled our way of living which was peaceful and united. The christians broke all our morons by dividing Hindus. This is the tactics used by birtishers to rule India same thing followed till now in all nook and corner of India. the service rendered by the christians are not services but a buisness of conversion.
kbalajie1 11 months ago
Im a Christian from America. I wont pretend to know whats going on there. But we dont back slavery in any way. One of my good friends here is Hindu. I always enjoy talking to him, he is a nice guy. We allow people to believe what they want. I dont think he would go out to hurt anyone. All races and religions are free here. As long as you dont hurt others. My best friend is black. He is a hard working man who built his own business from the ground up. Im proud to have him as a friend.
ThePeacelovenhappine 1 year ago 2
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remove () with dots, replace B with _ , replace P with back slash and remove spaces
stephen B knapp () com P christian B persecution B in B india () htm
et1074 1 year ago
The purpose of converting Colored people into Christianity is to increase the number of Colored Slaves of racist and unjust White people. The perfect examples are Condi Rice and Allen West. Black Christians like these 2 believe that they'd be blessed by God if they bless White European Occupiers of Palestine who are God-Chosen b/c of the race they are born in. They think b/c of being born in God-Neglected Black race, they weren't promised Holy Land unlike their White Masters. Indians are smart!
charya72 1 year ago
Or what about the ridiculing and insulting of other faiths by Christians? You yourself as a Christian have shown this in many, MANY videos. The primary target being, yep that's right, Hindus.
EternalSelf108 1 year ago
Hmm, it's funny how you did not talk of the actions of some Christians which spark up events like this in the first place.
Forced conversions of Hindus and other religious groups by Christians ring a bell? And yep, this happens in India.
EternalSelf108 1 year ago
GERONAMI ARE YOU A PEDOPHILE LIKE ALL XTIAN PRIESTS ? DO YOU LIKE FUCKING LITTLE BOYS IN THE ANUS? DO YOU LIKE THE TASTE OF FIVE YEAR OLD PENIS? YOU PEDO PENIS PUFFER
tamilmannan 1 year ago
that bastard jesus was the son of a roman soldier who raped mary that hot prostitute who was supposedly a virgin. the only miracle in jeebuz' birth is that that little piece of shit didn't come out covered in semen, because thats all that nasty ho mary did was fuck in gangbangs. mary loved bukkake and thousands of men cumming on her face. jesus was a faggot and loved fucking his disciples. GERONAMI is a faggot thats why he loves jesus so much, hes hoping for an anal adventure with jeebuz. FAGGOT
tamilmannan 1 year ago
i wish geronami this xtian nigger was in orissa while this happened.
tamilmannan 1 year ago
that shawmi killed by Christians two Christians also arrested
busyadam 1 year ago
all rubbish, this foreign bastard does not know anything.
ashmit999 1 year ago
Indians, Abolish the Caste System. Help these poor folks.
jojaryong 2 years ago
As usual, Dr. Paul, you forget that the riots occured because Swami Laxmanananda was MURDERED BY MAOISTS PAID BY THE CHURCH because he was protesting against Christian evangelism. If apologists and evangelicals like you didn't spread lies about Hinduism and bribe and trick the Indian poor people into converting, none of this would've happened. Don't blame Hinduism, blame your OWN narrow-minded, bigoted, arrogant faith.
si91 2 years ago
@si91
There is absolutely no evidence that Christians are behind the killing. The murder of Laxmanananda is openly claimed by Maoists. Then why do you harp on that again?That Hinduism has the most oppressive structures of all other religions is a well known fact. Untouchables do not have any place in Hinduism. So what is wrong if they convert to Islam of Buddhism or Christianity. No body can stop them from doing it.
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Certainly the murder of Laxmanananda was claimed by the Maoists. You forget, however, that Maoists and Christians in India are hand in hand, as they are both comprised of Dalits who despise Hindus. Also, you forget that Laxmanananda was attacked before his death by Christians who badly beat him, so who else but Christians would work through Maoists to kill him after they failed once? And what else did Laxmanananda that would make people dislike him apart from oppose conversion?
si91 1 year ago
@si91
" You that Maoists and Christians in India are hand in hand" NOT a shred of evidence to claim any nexus between maoists and Christians. None of judicial findings, fact finding teams, NHRC report, investigative journalists or even a snippet of news in support of this, except HINDUTVA propaganda. By ideology,belief, practice they are entirely different. Commies are atheists and Christians are theistic, what a sea of difference. A lame and dastardly claim for a genocide.?
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
@secularvoice
You forget that the only controversial thing that Laxmananada did was oppose arrogant conversion efforts by Christian bigots like Dr. Paul. Tell me please, why would Maoists attack him? What did he do against Maoism? You also forget that CHRISTIANS attacked Laxmanananda before and beat him but failed to kill him. How do you explain that?
si91 1 year ago
@secularvoice
You also forget that Christian missionaries openly ridicule Hinduism is merely pagan superstition when it is one of the deepest and most profound spiritual traditions in the world. I am not saying that the violence was at all justified. But do you expect Hindus to sit around and do nothing while their religion is dragged through the mud by Christian fanatics and evangelicals? If Christian conversion stops, the violence too will end. But Christians like Dr. Paul are hateful.
si91 1 year ago
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@si91 " Laxmanananda was attacked before his death by Christians who badly beat him " . A BLATANT LIE. I have done a google search of the QUOTE. Not a single item to support.I have never read this piece of news in Front line Out look, India Today, or any prominent news agency. Some masked men attacked him but nothing to prove that they are Christians. ANOTHER PROPAGANDA. There is no evidence for any militant movement among Christians. YOU LIED
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice Most of the Englishmedia in India has missionary stakes and infiltrators planted by the latter.U may research on this. And moreover, most of the English media are manned by pseudo intellectuals who are no more than jugglers of words and phrases and idioms copying their style like damn fools from Americans whose ideas they may just alter to suit their aims. English was to serve merely as a medium for echnical education, but Colonialists used to brainwash Indians into self-haters.
lsjtifo 1 year ago
@si91 There is nothing with me for Laxmananda as all top religious leaders (irrespective of religion) are utterly corrupt and they are the CURSE and SHIT of this nation. Didn't Hindus convert tribals into Hindu fold? (mark that Indigenous Tribals are not hindus) Didn't Hindus forcefully reconvert Christians back to Hinduism? Do not hindus convert white people in USA and European countries.?Didn't Ambedkar convert ten thousands of Dalits to Buddhism?
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
You seem to have a tendency to label all people of one group without separating individuals. First upper castes now religious groups. That is not fair. Laxmanananda was not corrupt, he was a simple renunciate monk. Hindus do convert tribals to the Hindu fold, but I do not think that that is at proper. But you forget that this is in response to Christian attempts to convert tribals. Also you forget that Hinduism itself absorbed many tribal customs in some areas.
si91 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Hindus do reconvert Christians, but that would not be necessary if Christians were not hungry to convert people and harvest souls. Hindus do convert people in the West but they do not vilify Christianity to do so, nor do they take advantage of the poor and uneducated as Christian missionaries do.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
" do they take advantage of the poor and uneducated" this because you cannot find the kind of poverty and oppression in west as it is seen in Indian society. If christians are taking advantage of Lower caste, remember that Lower caste people are also taking advantage of Christians as they benefit from the education, social upliftment and dignity of living( which the Hindu society could not deliver them for centuries) and it is a give and take situation. What is the harm?
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
The harm is that Christians make Hinduism seem like nonsense, when it is one of the most profound, deep, and wise philosophies in the world. Hindus were making great leaps in logic, philosophy, meditation etc long before Christianity even existed. Yet, Christians despise Hinduism and tell Dalits that Hinduism is the source of their problems. They inspire hate between lower and upper castes, and destroy thousands of yeas of Hindu culture by making Dalits hate it.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
" Hinduism seem like nonsense" the hindusims as it is practised now is an absolute non-sense.But the hinduism as in vedas is entirely different and there were truth seekers which I do acknowledge (not the religious aspect but the philosphy and the wonderful though structure) But if hinduism is an open religion (even charvakas- athiests in vedas) which accepts in a non-violent way the different though streams then DO RSS, VHP , Bajrangdal represent it? Why oppose conversion then?
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Certainly some things Hindus do nowadays are ignorant. However, that is only because they are ignorant of the Hindu scriptures. Hinduism is certainly an open religion. Charvakas, Samkhyas, Buddhists, Jains, etc all were accepted by Hindu society in ancient times. The reason conversion should be opposed is because Christianity is different from Dharmic religions. Buddhists, Charvakas, etc, never said Hinduism was FALSE or SATANIC or DEMONIC. That is why they all lived peacefully.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
" Hinduism is certainly an open religion " Hello this is my point, then why do you jump in the next step against conversion? Do not company's give advertisements about thier products? Why cant hindus also convert people? here is a difficulty. To which caste shall a newly converted hindu be allocated? Will an untouchable be granted the privileges of caste hindus? Any secular thinker like me will certainly tell that Hinduism is a cruel superstitious religion.
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Hindus do not convert people because Hindus believe that anyone can follow dharma no matter what God he prays to. Yet Christians believe that Jesus and Jesus ALONE leads to heaven, and there is where problems occur. Again we are back to square one. You ask which caste a convert will convert to. He will not convert to any caste. He will be a normal human being. There is no caste in Hinduism. Anyone who says Hinduism is "cruel" or "superstitious" has not read the Upanishads.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
" Hindus do not convert .." might be because people do not find any thing worthwhile to convert to hinduism so as to satisfy them except (lower caste people only want to abandon it at the earliest) inspite of several swamis who forcefully converted the tribals in chattisgarh at the point of trisul in 1990's with Judev singh as the leader evangelist. So the cruel salwa judum founder became a hindu, Mahendra Karma. So Hindus desperately tried to convert people Much more than christians
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
SO??? What does this have to do with Hinduism? Where in the Hindu scriptures does it say it is alright to convert people at the point of trisul? Simply because Hindus convert people does not mean that Christians are justified in using lies, bribes, and threats to do so. Hindu forceful conversion is a RESPONSE to Christian conversions. I am not saying it is right. But it would all stop if Christians stopped converting using arrogance and tricks.
si91 1 year ago
@secularvoice
However, Christians make Dalits HATE Hindus. Buddhists never hated. Jains never hated. Ashoka was a patron of both Buddhism and Hinduism. But Christians do hate. That is why during the Goa Inquisition the Portuguese persecuted Hindus. They see Hinduism as inferior. I am not saying that BJP and Bajrangdal are right in sometimes resorting to violence. But this all could stop if Christians were not arrogant and did not see themselves as superior.
si91 1 year ago
@secularvoice
The only reason India is poor, recall, is because of FOREIGN rule. Rule by Muslims and CHRISTIANS (British Raj) I might add. So before this, Dalits were socially uplifted. It was Muslim and Christian vilification of Hinduism that made things worse.
si91 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Hinduism certainly does not have an oppressive caste system. India does. You confuse social system with religion. Nowhere in any Hindu scripture is the caste system prescribed. In fact, several places in the Hindu scriptures it says that all human kind are equal, that they should be like spokes on a chariot wheel, that the world is one family.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
" Hinduism certainly does not have an oppressive caste system ",
Friend, do not try to fool me. Caste system got institutionalized with Sankaracharya, and well laid in Manusmriti which explicitly states and molten lead should be cast into the ear of shudra who hear the vedas (I have an end less list to to it). Brahmin kshatrriya, Vaishya, shudra classification is the EXPLICIT creation of Hinduism.False Religions (what ever it might be) deceived man kind.
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Wrong. Shankaracharya was originally casteist but one day he while on his way to the Vishwanath Temple, Sankara came upon an untouchable accompanied by four dogs. When asked to move aside by Shankara's disciples, the untouchable replied: "Do you wish that I move my ever lasting Ātman ("the Self"), or this body made of flesh?" Realizing that the untouchable was none other than god Shiva himself, and his dogs the four Vedas, Shankara prostrated himself before him.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
" Shankaracharya was originally .." I am not here to discuss the divinity of any religious heads and I do not believe in it. There are a lot of stories regarding sankaracharya and you cannot verify all these (for lack historical evidence) Kerala history is not clearly known before 1000 AD, But he was the main proponent of caste system is a well established fact which every one accepts.
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
I am not saying Shankaracharya was "divine" so I don't know why you're addressing that. There certainly is historical evidence for this particular incident. The poem itself: Manisha Panchakam. Certainly Shankaracharya supported the caste system, but HE CHANGED. The caste system was part of his society. It is natural that he would accept it originally, but the fact that he later rejected it shows his greatness and open-mindedness.
si91 1 year ago
@secularvoice
George Washington was a slave owner. Does that not make him a great man, the liberator of America? Similarly, Shankaracharya was a great man for his time. And you keep forgetting that he REJECTED the caste system when he got older and understood the Divine within us all.
si91 1 year ago
@si91 I can't believe that a staunch caste believer progressively self corrected himself and became an opponent of caste sysytem. If so then why not his corrective teaching find any place in any historical records, in many religious sermons, poems, that Sankaracharya rejected caste system ? (When ashoka rejected war after Kalinga it was a tremendous anecdote in history) Why did not such a great person influence the hindu society to reject caste?
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
If no staunch caste believers ever corrected themselves, then there would never have been any progress or reform movements. The fact that there WAS proves that people CAN change, like Shankaracharya did. The proof is Manisha Panchakam itself. That poem he wrote later in his life refutes the caste system.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
A poem in itself cannot be a historical evidence and it cannot be used to refute a bunch of evidence that makes people believe that sankaracharya institutionalized caste system. I did not say that people cannot change. But there is nothing to suspect that sankarachrya retracted or changed. Any religious leaders who propagates hatred (eg. Ignatius loyola, francis Xavier, several other hate masters, who ranks equal with manu and sankaracharya )are enemies to mankind
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Shankaracharya did not institutionalize the caste system. He could not have; he was not a political leader. How can the poem not be evidence? You get the idea that Shankaracharya was a casteist from his writings. This poem is also one of his writings. So if one writing supports the caste system and a later one opposes it, it is evidence that the writer changed his views over time. It is unfair that you are blaming Shankaracharya for being a victim of his society.
si91 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Plus, even though ashoka rejected caste system, it still remained. One man cannot destroy caste system, though Shankara DID fight against it, as Ashoka and countless others did. What we need to do is recognize that it is a social and not a religious problem and target the society, not unfairly target Hinduism, which is blameless.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
" Shankara DID fight against it, " absolutely no evidence that sankaracharya fought against caste system. Not even a folk lore any where in kerala about it. No historians ever supported it. If he retracted, then caste would have already disappeared from India centuries back. His disciples would have perpetuated it. But nothing like that. Indeed there was slave trade in Kerala till 1785 and it was the British who stopped it. Your argument is base less
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
After Manisha Panchakam obviously Shankaracharya would have preached against it and his disciples would have followed him. Just because he preached against it does not mean that Kerela would not have caste system anymore. Ashoka ruled all of India and rejected caste system and it remained. Does that mean he did not reject it? Also slave trade does not equal caste system. India never had slaves. Slavery was introduced by the Muslims, so this is irrelevent.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
Asoka was not a propenent of caste system nor did the buddhists. But teh buddhsit ashrams in kerala (eg.Kdungalloor) were forcefully occupied by the later resurgence of Brahmins-priest, as it happened all through india. Hence caste system appeared in a more ferocious way. " India never had slaves " Abundant evidences to prove that slavery existed in kerala (the birth place of sankaracharya) till 1785. And secretly till 1960 and ironically it was the naxallites who stopped it
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
No, the resurgance of Brahmins was not forceful. You forget that Buddhism changed Hinduism from more ritual based to more philosophy based. Both caste system and slavery were social institutions, not religious ones. Why do you blame social aspects on a religion that is not based on them? Even if caste system and slavery existed, WHAT DOES IT HAVE TO DO WITH HINDUISM???? Which Hindu scripture supports such stupid practices, tell me? Unless you support this, you are simply hateful.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
I have told enough about Manu sankaracharya, and even the very blood of hindu culture is caste ridden (as it is the case with the oppressive traits of religions) You tell that it is just a social problem. In india Religion ruled everything social and social product means that it originated from Hindu religion only. No body was enough secular in tradition indian society to institute such a powerful institution as caste system.
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
And recall that I have REFUTED all your claims about Shankaracharya and Manu. You say that Hinduism is to blame but you have yet to PROVE IT. Religion was indeed important, but NOWHERE IN HINDU DOCTRINE IS CASTE SYSTEM SUPPORTED. Japan had a caste system to persecute the native Ainu people. Chinese Manchus persecuted the Han Chinese. African Igbo tribe had caste system. But neither Japanese religion nor Chinese religion nor African religion has anything to do with caste system.
si91 1 year ago
@si91 " you have yet to PROVE IT. " I have already proven it you denied it on your baseless arguments. I cannot press any more harder than that. " HINDU ... CASTE SYSTEM SUPPORTED ". I have already told that caste system, is the basic tenet of Hinduism both socially and historically which is an established fact and you cannot argue against it though written in bold face. A max 500 words limit do not allow me to write every thing in full
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
You say you've proved it, but all you've said is the fact that it was practiced. My arguments are not baseless. I refuted your claims against Manusmriti, showing how it was written over a period of time and is not sacred scripture. I refuted your claims against Shankara and the Purushua Sukta as well. Caste system was part of Indian society, but you have not proved it was part of Hinduism. Unless you prove that by quoting scripture, which you have not done, your argument fails.
si91 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Your claims about China and Japan are not correct. The Japanese persecuted the Ainu SPECIFICALLY. for being born into a different ethnic group, as the Manchus persecuted the Han people in the Qing Dynasty for being born in a different ethnic group. So too did the Brahmins, but unless you quote scripture to prove that Hinduism sanctions the caste system your arguments are baseless. Simply because it was popular does not make it Hindu. That is the ad populum fallacy.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
My point is that the main stream religion of their society did not cordon off and quarantine the oppressed as it was seen india, where the dalits and tribals ar prevented from entering temple premises even and the mainstream hindu religion supports it. Nothing to his scale happened in other countries. Branding shudra as coming from the feet of Brahma, and branding people as untouchables
though all are brown skinned, IT IS THE MAINSTREAM HINDUISM THAT HAS DONE IT.
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Yes, the mainstream religion DID do that in China and Japan. Japan and China also persecuted Buddhists, as you claim Hinds did (though they did not, actually). Are you going to blame their religions for that? Mainstream Hindu religion does not support it. You keep saying that it does without support. Just because many Hindus support it does not mean Hinduism does. Hindu doctrine that preaches equality does not change even if people violate it 1,000,000 times.
si91 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Also I have dealt with the Purusha Sukta part about shudras. You choose to ignore it (again). Either present SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE that Hinduism supports the caste system or concede the point. Either way, don't spread lies.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
The form of class division as in Japan or china, however cruel it was, did not condemn a person by birth and denied him the privileges as seen in india, where the lower caste is entirely cordoned off from temple, schools public spaces, even for drinking water. Neither did Shintoism (japanese) or Confucianism had allotted a sanctimonious face for caste system as Hinduism did.
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
So why is Hinduism singled out unfairly like this? None of your hate speech against Hinduism proves anything except for the fact that you are ignorant of scripture.
si91 1 year ago
@si91 The brahmin resurgence was a slow and subtle process, declaring the upper fold of the society a brahmins or equivalent social status, and wooing them, giving kings enormous religious support for all his evils (like the evil nexus between religion and politics now) dividing the society along caste lines, then oppressing them.this is exactly the scenario that happened in Kerala and Maharastra a millenniem back. A buddhist kerala became hindu caste dominated hence
secularvoice 1 year ago
Comment removed
si91 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Yes...so? What does Hinduism have to do with it? I am going to ask you this until you either prove that Hindu scriptures support caste system or concede the point. Buddhism declined in India because Hinduism absorbed it. Brahmins did not destroy Buddhism. Some of the greatest Buddhist masters in India were Brahmins like Nagarjuna, Asanga, and Ksitigarbha. Buddha's own dynasty was descended from the sage Angirasa
si91 1 year ago
@si91
" Buddhism declined in India.." because they were not able to counter the cunning tactics and connivances of the brahmin priests , while it flourished in china and far eastern countries where there was no such countering forces. As I have told you that buddhist ashram in Kodungaloor was conquered by brahmin priest by chanting vulgar songs (a practice till today) in the vicinity. Some other ahsrams were conquered by force (eg. parashurama folk lore) and kiling
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
That is not historically based. Recall that many of the greatest Indian Buddhists were BRAHMINS like Nagarjuna and Asanga, and even Buddha's own royal lineage was descended from the sage Angirasa. You have conveniently not addressed this. You also forget the role of Islamic invasions in destroying Buddhist universities like Nalanda and Takshashila.
si91 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Brahmins are human too. Some brahmins were certianly bad people, but many were good. To smear ALL of Hinduism based on some actions of a few that are not scripturally supported is not fair. It's basically reverse caste system (discriminating against upper caste rather than lower). You keep ignoring all the good things Brahmins have done. That is not fair at all.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
Who told brahmins are not human beings? My best are friends are brahmins (FYI ankur choudhary and Manas Mukherjee were two of my best friends) I am not talking about the every day bhattacharaya, choudhary, banerjee, bhatt. But about the institutionalized oppression seen in the hindu society. Please understand my point.
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
I understand your point completely. I too oppose caste system, though I am a brahmin descended from the sage Kaundinya. The fact that the caste system is still practiced by many Hindus does not mean Hinduism suddenly supports it. They are all violating the Hindu doctrine of equality, of God being present in ALL living creatures. However, you unfairly characterize Hinduism as casteist and ALL Brahmins as evil, manipulative, and hateful, when that was never the case.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
You are severly mistaken '" ALL Brahmins as evil, .." Please read my earlier comment. If you have a version of Hinduism that teaches all mankind is equal,caste system is cruel, then my earnest plea is please go and preach this loud in the ears of many hindu fanatics who torture many a dalit and tribal, who kill Christians and Muslims, and convince them that the form of Hinduism that they are practising is not correct and request them to be tolerant to missionaries and muslims.
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
It is not my personal version that I made up. You obviously have not read the Vedas. Hinduism is based on recognizing the Divine within us all, making us all equal. I certainly intend to preach to the hindu fanatics. I also hope you have learned from our discussion that Hinduism is not the evil, oppressive creed you say it is.
si91 1 year ago
@si91 I have read some portions of vedas (an english translation though I cannot remember or annotate any of it partly due due to my lack of religious feelings) I have copy of manusmriti in full (again english translation). But for me an english daily will give more valuable information than religious texts. It is the social problems that affect me and annoy me than discussing which religion is better
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
But what do social problems have to do with religions? If the religion's creed is against the social problem, it doesn't matter if billions of people contribute to that social problem in the name of that religion. They are violating that religion's precepts in its name. That is all. Just because people are doing something in the name of a religion doesn't mean that that religion automatically condones their actions. That's all I'm trying to tell you here.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
(1)Again provoking discussion fine. Nobody is patient enough to sit up and read all upanishads and vedas for deep R&D, to look for the pure streams of religion. Even if a stream like that exists in books it has no meaning because nobody's practising it.The oppression of dalits that happens in India is aggressively led by hindutva right wing and sanctified by prominent hindu saduhs hence people identify it as a problem of hindu religion. No doubt ambedkar and followers embraced buddhism
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Indeed people see it as such, but the fact remains that IT IS NOT.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
(2) So if you feel that hindu religion is misrepresented and it's dharmas are not followed by main stream hindus , then it's your urgent duty to cry into the ears of these fanatics to stop killing dalits, muslims, and missionaries for the sake of religion, and to work for genuine reformation with in hindu society. I have seen when ever Christianity fell in to hypocrisy there were always people from inside to make counter movements or reformation.
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Certainly I want people to follow dharma properly again. But I also want Christians to stop the conversions that started this whole mess.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
(3)There were indeed genuine reformers like the great Swami dayanada Saraswati (hindu right wingers disliked him for his radical teachings). Sree narayana Guru in kerala was another reformer in kerala who left such a powerful revolution. None of such people are found now except some god men like Nityanada (bangalore) and Brahama dev (delhi). If this do not happen people will automatically leave Hinduism (if not for Christianity some other religion).
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Yes, of course we need good gurus to reform the society. Organizations like Ramakrishna Mission and others work towards reform. You also forget that BJP does that too. They are not all evil. BJP would not be fanatical sometimes if missionaries stopped converting poor people and tribals. Blame the missionaries
si91 1 year ago
@si91
" Blame the missionaries", I honor Ramkrishna mission fro their great works, but sorry to differ BJP is the main enemy of a secular atmosphere in india Including the pulling down of Babri Masjid, pogrom on Muslims In Gujarat, and many more in the list.BJP attacks conversion because of the fear that lower caste people will rise up snatch power from the upper caste domination due to the education and uplift that missionaries provide to the lower caste people
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Not true. BJP is not against Dalit rights, only against people trying to oppose Hindu nationalism. BJP is not against the education that missionaries provide, only the fact that they teach Dalits to hate Hinduism. You keep ignoring this point.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
Friend, do not teach me about BJP I know it very well.BJP has a strong covert upper caste dominating cliche in it who want to impose the four caste stratification back to india. Their atrocities against Muslims in Gujarat is well documented (NHRC 75 page report under Jt. J.S. Verma). BJP is a hugely corporate lobbying party, having secret nexus with Mossad and CIA , oppressors of tribals and Dalits in general (eg. chattisgarh govt.)
secularvoice 1 year ago
@si91
(4) Have you ever asked why missionaries are winning over people? because they work among the triabls and dalits, open schools, gives them honour and dignity of life which the so called Hinduism never gave. What right do you have to say that missionaries are doing wrong, who represents a religion that do not allow dalit to drink water, walk in the streets, keep him even miserable than a cattle? Stop atrocities against dalitsand help them. If U cant do, allow somebody else to do
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Missionaries do that so that people will CONVERT. It is not a coincidence that most Christians in India are low caste. Upper castes are harder to bribe. I am not saying helping Dalits is bad. Red Cross and Doctors Without Borders and Peace Corps and other organizations do that WITHOUT CONVERTING THEM. But Christians make Dalits hate Hinduism, and, like you, unfairly blame Hinduism for their problems. This is unfair.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
" Upper castes are harder .." Look only the needy drink water isn' it? The majority of the upper caste eat up on the labours of the poor. So it is natural that only the poor will listen to missionaries. And the upper castes (in general) are interested in looting them. " Christians make Dalits hate .." It is the other way round, Most of the Dalits hate Hinduism (ambedkar is an example) even before they interacted with Christians.
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Some dalits did hate Hindus before they interacted with Christians, but Christians encourage this by propagating lies about Hinduism.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
" Christians encourage this " I think you are mistaken, I have had discussions with many christian friends and I found they have very little time even to discuss about hindu-Christian-Muslim issues and much less about any hindu hatred. Neither do I see in their publications any noticeable anti-hindu rhetoric (just visit some prominent Christian web sites in India) . But the case is different if you see some Dalit websites (anti-hindu sentiment is extremely strong)
secularvoice 1 year ago
@si91
More over I have met several Elite from Uraons (a tribal community using kujur as title) who have been converted to Christianity as early as 1870's by the Belgian missionaries in Ranchi and Gumla. There are Doctors, engineers, lawers, even IAS officers, PhD's, the christian tribals even run a reputed Business school In Ranchi. I wondered what would have been their plight if they remained in the hindu fold. Conversion have only done good for them but BAD for brahmin domination
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
If the upper castes and lower castes realize that caste system is not supported by Hinduism, then they will be able to have equality and have doctors, lawyers, PhDs while still remaining Hindus. I know dalit doctors in US who are hindus. There is no caste system in India. So the problem is with the social system in India not with Hinduism.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
" lawyers, PhDs while still remaining Hindus. " Virtually impossible. A hindu dalit is not even allowed to drink water, to be seated in dignity in a school, to do any other job than bearing shit (in Andhra many dalits do this job). Then how can they even think about becoming a PhD when they are psychologically and socially oppressed. Very very lucky few hindu dalits may make it out to main stream but their numbers are much much less than Dalit Christians (I have met people)
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
They make less than Dalit Christians because the church gives Dalit Christians money. Like I said, some Indian Christian communities retain caste. Caste system is not a Hindu concept. It is present in some Indian Muslim and Christian communities also. Caste needs to be abolished without conversion or Hinduism will also needlessly perish.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
(1) Dear friend I do not want to continue this discussion much forward as I doubt whether it will benefit you and me. " church gives ..money" As I have told I verily have seen the upper caste Christian converts retaining the dalit prejudice. Worst example is Kerala Roman Catholics, Syrian Jacobites (differente streams of traditional Christians). So there is no such money pumping by these bourgeousie for Dalit progress.
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Exactly. So there is nothing to be gained by converting Dalits. Instead of converting Dalits should fight the caste system alone, not Hinduism. By attacking Hinduism in converting away from it, Dalits will never be free because they won't attack the root source of the problem: Indian society.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
" So there is nothing to be gained by converting Dalits. " So much I have discussed about conversion I do not want to elaborate; Still. You are right there is nothing to be gained by conversion but for the Brahminical heirachry and not for Dalits. Dalits know that they have much much to gain (at least escape the cruel bondage of mainstream Hindu caste domination) and hence they do convert. Nobody can prevent them
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
I KEEP TELLING you that the caste system is not part of Hinduism. Why do you say "Hindu caste system" then? Dalits cannot escape the caste system via conversion because caste system is an Indian social problem. You keep missing that. So long as Dalits ignore this problem, caste system will always remain and there will always be attacks on missionaries for trying to destroy Hinduism.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
(2) But the reason is there is strong bond and dignity of life which is in bred in Christian way of life which gives a strong platform of launch for dalits, which a caste ridden Hindu mainstream society could never give. A dalit Hindu have to to cross 10 fold more social and religious obstacles than a Christian Dalit to attain some social status. More over caste system is the import of the Upper caste Hindu converts in to Indian Christianity.
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
There is no strong bond of dignity in life that Christianity has that Hinduism doesn't have. There are plenty of bad Christians and plenty of good Hindus, and plenty of bad Hindus and plenty of good Christians. Saying that being a Christian gives you a bond that Hinduism cannot give is misunderstanding Hinduism.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
(1)" There is no strong bond..Christianity" YOU ARE WRONG. From My experience the very reason for the tremendous advance of Christians in kerala (Dalits or Tradiationals) in the realm of HDI or literacy,living standards (again I request you to visit the districts in central part of Kerala, a Christian dominated region and see for yourself) is the strong family and social bonds. There is a village (where almost all are NRI) Kumbanadu where there is no Liquor shop
secularvoice 1 year ago
@si91
(2) Police cases are extremely rare and police desperately fill their quota of cases through traffic checking. The entire Christian belt is relatively much peaceful .Hindu community too have learned the strong bonding in Christianity and hence they replicated the same through NSS and SNDP and they too are progressing. The reason for very high HDI in Kerala is this social factor.Please ask some malayalees whether I am wrong or not.
secularvoice 1 year ago
@si91
(3)" There are plenty of bad Christians" May be. However bad Christians are (eg. my own right leaning relatives), the emphasis on charity , atleast in theory, is so deeply inbred from a very child hood (you will find very very few beggars in Kerala; a surprise for western social pundits) Motivation for high education and relatively deep civic sense (evidence- you travel by a second class train to kerala)
are influence of christians
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
There is also that strong bond and dignity in Hinduism, only has been lost. It needs to be recovered. The difference is that Christians can only get that strong bond by converting others while Hindus show it automatically. When Christians and Muslims violate that bond by insulting Hinduism, then Hindus naturally fight back. But under regular circumstances, Hinduism has that strong bond and dignity. It is why Buddhists and Jains and atheists were never persecuted.
si91 1 year ago
@si91 In the same breath, The converted Christians in kerala (from lower caste) now occupy good standards of living compared to their hindu counterpart who are still in adversity. You please pay a visit to these places and see for yourself. Conversion have only done them good and they know it well. So they do it. Except Hindu society Reform from with in Lower caste people will just abandon it and however hard the upper caste-cliche try to oppress them.
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Conversion makes them abandon thousands of years of Hindu culture. They need not convert if upper castes and lower castes realize that Hinduism does not support caste system. Rather than support false allegations against Hinduism you should tell these Dalits that Hinduism does not have caste system so they do not hate Hindus needlessly.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
" you should tell .." see I am not a social worker,and my realm is in Scientific Research and little time to do these.I belong to a traditional Christian family in kerala with absolutely no affinity to it's traditions (traditional Christians (upper caste converts) in kerala are as much caste oppressors of Dalits as hindu upper castes) But I will put my effort to understand Ur point that caste system is not a part of genuine Hindu philosophy.But no support for anti-conversion.
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
If caste system is not part of Hinduism, what need is there to convert? Rather than convert, both upper castes and lower castes should understand proper dharma.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
" thousands of ...culture. " I cordially invite you to come to kerala and see how here Hindus and Christians and Muslims live relatively peaceful. there were indeed conversions and the converted Christians did not immediately go western,marriages are arranged, food,clothing, housing and even the very attitude is Indian. Conversions only enriched kerala and diversified its population and culture
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
They still reject Hinduism. They still reject Hindu philosophy and worldview. That's destruction of culture. It's unnecessary and harmful.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
So if you are so burdened about their way of teaching Hinduism as wrong, I have already told yo the best you can do. You ignite a reformation in Hindu society. Reject the caste system allow the lower castes to enter temple and be priests,stop atrocities against dalits by Hindu uppercastes (read this week front line). As long as this is not done no wonder more and more Dalits will listen to missionaries and you can do nothing against except writing comments on youtube like this.
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
And I have told you the best way to get rid of the caste system is to blame Indian SOCIETY, not Hinduism. This means that you should discourage anyone who converts to "leave the caste system" since converting DOES NOT CHANGE THE NATURE OF INDIAN SOCIETY and thus does not dismantle the caste system at all. So long as you realize that Hinduism is not to be blamed for the caste system, and that conversion does not help the society, we are in agreement, and need not discuss further.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
the great hindu pilgrim site Sabarimala, when hindu pilgrims reach there first they give respect on their way to a Muslim deity. Many traditional Christian churches almost look almost Hindu in attire and worship. So conversions did not cause any trouble to its' religious friendly society (religious riots are extremely rare) So Ur point " Conversion makes them abandon ..Hindu culture. " needs to be rechecked
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
If they still retain respect for Hindu gods, then that is DESPITE conversion, not because of it. Christianity says those who worship "false gods" go to hell. Missionaries don't like it when converts worship Hindu deities along with Jesus. They want converts to worship Jesus ALONE.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
See, why do you worry about which deity people worship. My friend Ankur (a bengali brahmin) hates all deities and worships and have never gone to a temple for he has atheist inclinations. Is he anti-Indian. Tribals do not worship any hindu diety. Are they anti -Indian? Indian culture cannot be defined by the subset of dieties, but it is much much deeper than that. As long as a religious adherent do not ask to kill and put to fire others houses,it is tolerable for me what ever they teach
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
I am not saying not worshiping Hindu deities is bad. I am saying HATE for them is bad. Christians view Hindu deities as false gods. So long as they see Christianity as better than Hinduism, there will always be animosity. It is the fact that Christianity creates needless animosity via conversion that I detest.
si91 1 year ago
@si91 " Hindu deities..HATE for them" I can give still further hatred for deities among progressive hindus,eg, Most of the Research students in National Institutes of India are anti-religious. Is that BAD? Me too are against some of the needless animosity which some unwise preachers create. But that is extremely rare case. most of the time it is the calculated attack of the Right wingers to prevent the Dalit progress through Missionaries
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
I also hope that together we can stop the missionary activities of Christians who hate Hindus. Hindus should be tolerant, yes, but not of Christians who hate Hinduism and want it destroyed. They should be reasoned with and taught that Hinduism too has much good in it. They should not preach that Hinduism is false or satanic or that Jesus is the only way to salvation. There is no good hating other religions, but that is what missionaries preach.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
No stopping of any missionary activity (either by hindus or christains) as long as it is not at the point of spear or gun or trishul or sword. It is the basic constitutional right of an Indian citizen to practice his faith and teach and advertise it. You and me have no right to curtail the freedom of conscience of another person. Let the Christians preach about faith and so do Hindus. But not a pogrom as in Gujarat and Kashmir and Orissa for faith
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Certainly Christians have freedom of speech and practice as per the constitution. But is it not wrong for Christians to propagate hate speech and false propaganda against Hinduism by spewing misconceptions like the caste system into the ears of ignorant Dalits? I do not think you would like it if someone lied, bribed, threatened, and or otherwise manipulated you into accepting their religion if you were at a disadvantage. Why should the Christians be allowed to do this?
si91 1 year ago
@si91
After 30 years of anti-conversion bill in 8 states how many genuine cases (not FIR's) of fraudulent conversion were brought up? Not a single one. Lower caste people are indeed eager to exit Hinduism if not for faith but for atleast for the so called bribe (education, social upliftement, dignity of life). No need cry into the ears of dalits that mainstream Hinduism is their worst enemy. They know it well better than you and me. because they experience it real life.
secularvoice 1 year ago
@si91
See, in USA people (mostly afro-americans) leave mainstream Christianity and embrace Islam, because of racism shown by whites. Same thing happens in India for hinduism. Dalits know well that for centuries they were ill-treated by hindu masters and they are now leaving hinduism. In orissa the it was the clear cut hindu upper class who have tortured and killed them. Then which dalit will be patient enough to listen to pure Vedas and Puranas as long as this happens?
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Sure Africans leave Christianity for Islam. But is it Christianity's fault that there is racism? Did Christ say "Be racist"? No, he did not. Christianity is not to blame for racism, similarly, Hinduism is not to blame for caste system. Upper caste people who believe in the caste system need to read and understand the Vedas correctly and allow lower castes to learn them too. Then only there can be reform. Conversion makes this impossible by making Dalits hate upper castes.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
It is the indeed the fault of the mainstream professing white racist Christians ( those who are in the Bible belt, mainly Texas (buckle of the belt) and around) that many afro-blacks leave Christianity. I am not bothered about the religious canons and ancient writings but about the day to day real life. The same story is happening in India. Some of tribals & dalits escape to Buddhism, Some to Christianity, some Naxallism, all becoz of a common oppressor the main stream Hinduism
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Hinduism is based on "religious canons and ancient writings." If you want to criticize the caste system, I have no problem with that. Just remember that the caste system is not part of Hinduism. So tribals and dalits need not convert away. It doesn't eliminate the caste system and only makes them hate more.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
Let me admit that the piece of information " caste system is not part of Hinduism " is entirely new to me and surprises me, may be you are dwelling in the philosophical realm. I will take some effort in future to read and understand on my own about this. But I will surely say that apart from the domain of philosophy, the main stream practising Hinduism is strongly caste oriented (my single reason for high anger )
secularvoice 1 year ago
@si91
" Conversion makes this impossible" , Conversion gave Indian dalits and tribals a voice to speak out. I really wonder whether you have understood one letter about the sad plight of Dalits and tribals in India. I have made reasonably enough travels and have seen it by sight. Dailts as a whole hate upper caste even with out conversion, it is so deep in their psyche, because it is their main identified social enemy. So plz stop telling that conversion makes them hate uppercaste.
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
This hatred needs to stop. Conversion only feeds the flames. It doesn't solve anything. It doesn't give tribals and dalits a voice. Tribals and Dalits can have a voice even as Hindus. But conversion simply adds another difference between dalits and other Indians and that is not proper.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
" Conversion only feeds the flames. " About conversion I have written enough and do not dare to write any more. My earlier comments are enough.
secularvoice 1 year ago
@si91 " understand the Vedas correctly.." You are so worried about preserving Vedas while the hungry deprived population is worried about what they eat and drink. The classic failure of indian mind set. it fails to understand that there are a huge deprived population but hell-bent on sending rocket to moon, IPL hoax, super power status, and so on. Give the hungry to eat, feed him cloth him, allow him to drink water, walk in public space then vedas will have a meaning to him other wise NOT
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
You misunderstand me. I AM worried about hungry, poor people. The solution is for their upper caste oppressors to understand that the caste system is not in the Vedas. Then they will stop abusing Dalits and treat them equally. Then they will no longer be considered inferior. As long as upper castes think that caste system is part of Hinduism they will abuse Dalits thinking that Hinduism supports it.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
" You misunderstand me. " Look, I do not underrate your sincerity, and I value it. My point is that hindu society needs great reformers in the Modern days( I do not find any body). That lacunae is fettered by VHP and Bajrangdal and goondas like that who will bring more and more extinction to Hinduism than anybody else by their advocacy of militancy, violence and misrepresentation of true Hindu spirit as you have told. Please focus on these than conversion issue
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Not all BJP advocate that. Violence and militancy would not be necessary if Christian missionaries, Pakistanis, etc stopped trying to abuse Hinduism.
si91 1 year ago
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@si91
"Not all BJP advocate" May be (like Madan Lal Khurana, Arun Jaitley, May be Vaj payee too) but MAJORITY of BJP advocates violent brutal methods against minorities (no need list;everybody knows who they are) and it is well documented by their own interviews testimonials and actions. Muslims do not convert then why were they burned in Gujarat?Why atrocities against hindu Dalits , Tribals in chattisgarh(conversion is not the issue here) This is the policy of the BJP and nothing else.
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
BJP only brutalize muslims because Muslims oppose India. Pakistan was created because muslims demanded their own state, and India lost land that had been Indian for 5000 years. Pakistanis don't just want Kashmir; they want the Mughal empire back. There are terrorists in India itself who support Pakistan and want India gone.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
See," Pakistan " issue cannot discussed in this short platform and I do not want to digress into that. But the reason for pogrom in Gujarat is none of these (NHRC report is the most authentic piece of evidence)Just a cruel and Barbaric tactic to polarize Hindu Muslim votes.Electoral win for BJP at the expense of 2000 Muslim lives. I strongly disagree with you on this point. Your justification for BJP state sponsored terrorism against minorities is base less.
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
I am not saying the attacks are justified. I am saying that radical BJPs (a minority) express their anger in the wrongly. If all the majority of BJPs were violent, the government would have collapsed during the administration of Vajpayee
si91 1 year ago
@si91
So if you are so worried of Christians are converting the dalits, you leave your comforts behind and go and work among the dalits and tribals and show them love, give them honour and dignity, openly ask VHP and Bajrang dal to stop atrocities against dalit Christians and Muslims, ask other hindu fellow men to do the same. Instead of this if you try to prevent conversion by Law and guns, YOU WILL NEVER win. More and more dalits will leave Hinduism for sure
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Of course violence is not the answer. I oppose and detest all religious violence and hate. Did India win independence with violence? No. Gandhiji won with ahimsa. Hinduism has always been tolerant. Dalai Lama, a Buddhist has refuge in India. Jews and Zoroastrians and Bahai faith also do. Violence against Christians started AFTER Independence, when conversions happened more often. Missionaries and their hate forces Hindus to violence because Christian missionaries hate Hinduism .
si91 1 year ago
@si91 " Violence against Christians started AFTER Independence " Totally wrong Violence against Christians were as far back as 1780 (check kerala christian history)by paliathachan under veluthampy dalawa. There was violence among Hindu society, just remember partition, hindu-Muslim violence in ahmedabad as early as 1930's. Once the upper-caste betrayed the freedom fighters and became the brown colonizers, violence against minorities were on a sharp rise.Not due to missionary activity
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Yes. And WHY was there violence against Christians? Because Christians hate Hinduism and call it false and Satanic. Muslims did that too. It is no coincidence that the most violence was against them. In ancient times, there was no violence against Buddhists, Jains, etc. Why? Because they never insulted Hinduism. Hindus are people too. Hinduism does not deserve the ignorant insults Muslims and Christians use against it.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
George Washington only fought for the whites in America but never for the blacks. he initially hinted the abolition of slavery but later retracted. Many progressive whites do not consider him as a great man (the great Indian disease of adoring historical figures). Many American freedom fighters were racists. So that don't contribute anything our present discussion.
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
You miss the point. Certainly American freedom fighters were racist. But that has nothing to do with Christianity. Similarly, many great Hindus were casteist. But the Hindu scriptures themselves don't support casteism. They reject it. So don't judge Hinduism by the caste system that its scriptures REJECT.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
American freedom fighters never claimed to represent Christianity and nothing to do with it(infact they were against a parochial state and were secularvoices , their slogan " church without a pope state with out a king"). It was effort of a certain section of Christians that floated anti-slavery movement. But here the case is not so the great patriarchs of Hinduism were staunch castiest and oppressors. This is the factor that angers me
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
So? Where in Hindu scriptures is casteism supported. You cannot take non-Hindu concepts and say that they are Hindu concepts just because certain Hindus practice them. That is unfair.
si91 1 year ago
@secularvoice
In response to this incident, he composed the poem Manisha Panchakam, which declared caste irrelevent. Manusmriti does mention that molten lead punishment but recall that it was a document that was composed over a long period of time. We know this because the laws contradict each other. Some glorify shudras and others oppress them, indicating that originally there was equality between castes that was later lost. Manusmriti is a LEGAL document, not a scripture.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
" several .....equal " purusha-sukta of Rigveda mentions shudra came from the feet of the Brahma while brahmins are from the face. The very concept of untouchability is practiced in all hindu temples. How come you tell me that Caste system is not the creation of hindu religion? Do you claim that Manu and Sankaracharya are rejected by hindu religion?The place Kalady (where sankaracharya was born) in Kerala is a holy place. (Apologies to my close Hindu friends).
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
If you had read the purusha sukta in its ENTIRITY, you understand that it mentions that the ENTIRE UNIVERSE came from God. So God is at the core of both the brahmin, the shudra, the animals, and inanimate objects, so we are all equal. Also you forget that the purusha suktam says that because all four castes must work together like the body parts that make the body function. If the feet, or the head, or the arms, or legs are lost, the body dies. So shudras equal and needed.
si91 1 year ago
@secularvoice
I am not saying that Manu and Shankaracharya were rejected. How could I say that? Shankaracharya is one of the most respected Hindu teachers. It is clear you did not read my post about Shankaracharya's rejection of the caste system. Also, you assume that there was only one Manu. But many people who wrote laws called themselves Manu as a pen name. Are we to assume that ever man named Adam was the Adam from the Garden of Eden? Of course not. Same goes with Manu.
si91 1 year ago
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secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Certainly untouchability is practiced. But plenty of countries practice things that the religion forbids. Christianity should not be characterized by slavery or the crusades, or witch burnings. So too should Hinduism not be characterized by untouchability and the caste system.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
The problem with Christianity is that the new testament (which they ought to practice)describes in length about the Love to mankind and speaks strongly against any divisions. there is no dogmatic support for caste division in christianity, so the quotes from the bible could not be employed for justifying racism (though criminal rascists in US are from bible belt) . But HINDU mythology actively supports it and hence caste system got deeply entrenched
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
You forget (again) that the mythological texts are not to be taken literally but allegorically. They were also written at various periods in Indian history, some of which were periods when the caste system was rigid. But the mythological texts are just that: mythology. They never happened. Taking mythology literally is not correct.
si91 1 year ago
@secularvoice
You forget that some of the greatest Hindu sages, like Vyasa and Valmiki were low caste, yet they are revered because at that time, there was no caste system. I am not saying it is wrong for untouchables to convert, only that it is wrong for Christian missionaries to delude them into thinking that Hinduism is to blame for untouchability.
si91 1 year ago
@si91
" Vyasa and Valmiki .." donot wash for the brutal caste system that hinduism practices toady. " Hinduism is to blame for untouchability.. " As I have told (short due to lack of space) Hinduism is to be blamed for caste system whether there are conversions or not. Why caste hindus in Tamil-nadu forms human chain agaisnt the entrance of untouchables in temples, and the same thing repeats in rajasthan, Bihar all through cow-belt?
secularvoice 1 year ago
@secularvoice
What do you mean "wash the brutal caste system"? Vyasa and Valmiki WERE low caste. Vyasa was the son of Satyavati, a fisherwoman. Valmiki was a woodcutter who became a thief. Both are considered great saints because the caste system was not present during their lives. Unless you provide scriptural evidence that Hinduism supports the caste system, you are merely being ignorant and hateful.
si91 1 year ago
@secularvoice
Again you assume that just because there is low caste oppression in India it is Hinduism's fault. You keep ignoring my point. Should we say Christianity is evil because of the crusades and with burnings and slavery that once went on in Christian countries? Why can you not give Hinduism the same credit?
si91 1 year ago