The thoughts that drove me as jeremyshanbles mentioned was the thought that nobody really cared especially when you are on your own...now i understand why kids do bad...when no one shows concern your thought grows into let me see if they will care if i did this one and then this one and then that one...my thought was healed by a high school teacher Ms. Sullivan when she gave me just the right attention i needed...Emmanuel Blimie Author of WHAT'S IN ME COMES ALIVE! Google author's name for book
The thoughts that drove me as jeremyshanbles mentioned was the thought that nobody really cared especially when you have been thrown out or yell at...now i understand why kids do something evil...because the thoughts of doing evil is right at the tip of youth and when no one shows concern the thought grows into let me see if they will care if i did this...my thought was healed by a high school teacher Ms. Sullivan when she gave me just the right attention i needed...when others didn't.
I'm not a writer or poet. In fact I've hated almost all of the poetry I've ever read. Its rare I read fiction or stories. Having said all that: I'm a huge fan of Bukowski!
I used to be prone to bouts of existential depression, but then I realized that life is meant to be lived, not aanalyzed. Shit, I was looking for clips from Tommy Boy and this popped up, life hasn't made any sense so far. Why the hell would it by the time I reach 72?
Ironic that in your notes on this verse you say, "Suicide is an evolutionary message telling you that your genes are not carrying survival strategies that work." and then go on to say "The better decision is to live a little longer and to change your life completely." But Bukowski states in the last line, "such impertinence only makes the Gods hesitate and delay. ask me: I'm 72." The impertinence he speaks of is thought of suicide, of which he thought only prolonged life, "ask me, I'm 72."
@Carex09 I said later in the notes, "What Bukowski knew was that thinking about suicide is cathartic - and very different from actually doing it." Then I went on to talk about the dangers of parasuicide. The notes are my thoughts, the poem is Bukowski's thoughts.
@SpokenVerse What I got out of it as a person who has tried unsuccessfully suicide and still thinks quite often and fondly of it, that the more you try to break free from the chains, the more the chains grow tighter still. If you struggle, and you will only prolong your misery.
I think Bukowski tried a little harder at suicide than walking into a bar fight, and thought of it all his life. It is misery to fail, you end up doing the opposite of what you intended. That was my interpretation.
If you think it was a "cathartic" experience for Bukowski to think of suicide, I would guess that you really haven't thought of suicide seriously enough to relate to this poem. But that again, is my personal interpretation.
@Carex09 I thought about it seriously enough to come to the conclusions I put in the notes. However, it's true that whenever suicide became an option, I chose one of the other options.
At last, we have found the secret to Bukowski's longevity!!! This is what he is saying: That thinking of suicide is a veritable drink from the fountain of youth. Just wanted to be really clear about what the author was meaning here. There is incredible sadness in this poem, that I think people miss. The failure of failure. The more you want it, the further it slips from you. Not really a good poem for people thinking of suicide because it is frickin' depressing on a deeper level.
Nihilists like me would siagree. But then again that philosophy is like the seasons, it rolls in and out. Today it's a big snowy winter fun land. And it has been for quite sometime.
@SpokenVerse I've read the notes. I always read your notes. I found this one, like your others, interesting, and was grateful for the link. However, I don't think you covered all the reasons why one might take their own life, and your previous comments suggest that you haven't even considered them. Not all suicides make the leap in a blaze of destruction designed to attract chaos, or even because they pity themselves.
Cont. from previous comment - I fucking hate it when people say that one should think how lucky one is. If I was lucky, then I wouldn't have this utter confusion, this brain-rotting disease, where I feel like I might smash my head against a big brick wall. No wonder so many suicides occur, when chronic, or manic, depressives are given such shitty "advice."
@MrHeslopian Quote "My interior soliloquies were circular, self-pitying, and exasperating, along the lines of: I don't deserve to live, but I don't have the courage to kill myself, which makes me even less worthy to live..." unquote
Suicides commit violent crimes against themselves and others. They are good at creating emergencies that can't be ignored. If you really must, please die quietly without creating a fuss or endangering others. But where's the fun in that, right?
@SpokenVerse I love your readings, and will continue to listen to your work, but my God that was a horrible thing you just said. True suicide - and I'm not talking about the attnetion seekers, but people who suffer from REAL mental illness - isn't inspired by a need to create a spectacle. Yes, suicide does cause suffering for others, but you wouldn't tell a man trapped in rubble to stop screaming for help, because it was inconsiderate to the people around him. Or maybe you would.
@MrHeslopian I made the best argument I could for staying alive. Suicide is voluntary, you get to choose the manner, the means, the time and the place. Why is it unreasonable to ask you to be considerate?
@SpokenVerse No. When you're seriously depressed, you cannot think with such logic. You're stuck inside the present tense, and can only focus on your pain, the fact that you're suffering, and that you must end said suffering. Please don't talk about being considerate when you've clearly never struggled with a mental illness. At my lowest ebb, I felt such an intense pain in the pit of my stomach that all I could think about was killing myself. I pulled through, but others might not be as lucky.
@SpokenVerse Regardless of fun, suicide is self-aborbent. If one simply wishes, it can hold staying factors of reality inside their heads be it human or existential liferopes. But from experience, one could always see it this way: If the human by default is given freedoms and liberties that only the mind can decipher and ommit, then it is by default that a human should not give a danmed if he/she so chooses about the "economy" of entire realities. Unless it is in the way.
@SpokenVerse People are functions. Emotion is function. Think like a narcisist or the best egotist that thinks practically with what options are available in suicide. This is a counter, to equate suicide as a practical goal and have means to attain it even changing those obstacles in your way. Suicide is voluntary, but EQ and IQ are very different levels of the mind, but will correspond constantly. If someone has the emotive means to do so, then supplemented with IQ, he/she can.
To my mind, suicide isn't always a choice. Sometimes, when you've reached your lowest ebb, not just through external misfortune - disease, bereavement, acrimonious divorce etc. - but and/or internal dysfunction, when the sadness and confusion overwhelm you, you can only think in the present tense, and all you know is that you're suffering and that you need to end that suffering. Being told there's light at the end of the tunnel doesn't help, because all you can see and feel is said tunnel.
Absolutely incredible, highly poignant. Having suffered and dealt desperately with depression in the past I know this feeling as conveyed here all too well. This hits it bang on the button!
Suicide is just as sick as any terminal disease, just as unfortunate as any accidental death, just as worthy of compassion -- and beside, I don't see what the horror is to hurry up an inevitable event -- sad, yes, stupid, maybe. The disdain expressed for suicide is appalling to me and the excess concern for survivors seems specious at best when a person has been so disconnected as to kill themselves -- selfish twit, how could you do this to me! heh, sorry -- pet peeve.
Another beauty! Bukowski is my favorite poet. Loved your comments as well. Life is just a bunch of possibilities. Suicide seems to me to lack imagination. If things got that bad for me i would walk to Brazil just to see all those big brown bottoms :)
being someone who never had a family but lived on the streets and raised myself, i would often have such thoughts. what changed my mind was not the idea that family or friends would be hurt, i had neither. literature offered me a window into thoughts of individuals who could create a music with words that gave, if not hope, a reason to continue, a reason to read another work of art that just may change one's mind about everything. oh and skateboarding too.
@jeremyshambles Your comment made me cry. Art, literature, has saved my life several times. If I ever really wanted to kill myself I would take up skateboarding. LOL I am fat old and stiff!
Really inspirational write up. I sometimes get the feeling that things would be easier if I killed myself, but it's generally in the face of stress so I try and remind myself how selfish suicide is.
Thank you.
hasturhastur 2 months ago in playlist Poetry, art, sculpture, etc etc etc
The thoughts that drove me as jeremyshanbles mentioned was the thought that nobody really cared especially when you are on your own...now i understand why kids do bad...when no one shows concern your thought grows into let me see if they will care if i did this one and then this one and then that one...my thought was healed by a high school teacher Ms. Sullivan when she gave me just the right attention i needed...Emmanuel Blimie Author of WHAT'S IN ME COMES ALIVE! Google author's name for book
esblimie 4 months ago
The thoughts that drove me as jeremyshanbles mentioned was the thought that nobody really cared especially when you have been thrown out or yell at...now i understand why kids do something evil...because the thoughts of doing evil is right at the tip of youth and when no one shows concern the thought grows into let me see if they will care if i did this...my thought was healed by a high school teacher Ms. Sullivan when she gave me just the right attention i needed...when others didn't.
esblimie 4 months ago
I'm not a writer or poet. In fact I've hated almost all of the poetry I've ever read. Its rare I read fiction or stories. Having said all that: I'm a huge fan of Bukowski!
MPArmstrong84 8 months ago
Göethe, wrote in "The sufferings of young Werther" Something to the effect...
Every man has a cup that holds suffering. And for every man his cup can hold a different amount. When his cup is full he´s reached the limit.
My copy of the book is from 1957 and falling apart, otherwise I would search and quote it.
hoghash78 9 months ago
I used to be prone to bouts of existential depression, but then I realized that life is meant to be lived, not aanalyzed. Shit, I was looking for clips from Tommy Boy and this popped up, life hasn't made any sense so far. Why the hell would it by the time I reach 72?
eeektavius 10 months ago
Ironic that in your notes on this verse you say, "Suicide is an evolutionary message telling you that your genes are not carrying survival strategies that work." and then go on to say "The better decision is to live a little longer and to change your life completely." But Bukowski states in the last line, "such impertinence only makes the Gods hesitate and delay. ask me: I'm 72." The impertinence he speaks of is thought of suicide, of which he thought only prolonged life, "ask me, I'm 72."
Carex09 1 year ago
@Carex09 I said later in the notes, "What Bukowski knew was that thinking about suicide is cathartic - and very different from actually doing it." Then I went on to talk about the dangers of parasuicide. The notes are my thoughts, the poem is Bukowski's thoughts.
SpokenVerse 1 year ago
@SpokenVerse What I got out of it as a person who has tried unsuccessfully suicide and still thinks quite often and fondly of it, that the more you try to break free from the chains, the more the chains grow tighter still. If you struggle, and you will only prolong your misery.
I think Bukowski tried a little harder at suicide than walking into a bar fight, and thought of it all his life. It is misery to fail, you end up doing the opposite of what you intended. That was my interpretation.
Carex09 1 year ago
@SpokenVerse
If you think it was a "cathartic" experience for Bukowski to think of suicide, I would guess that you really haven't thought of suicide seriously enough to relate to this poem. But that again, is my personal interpretation.
Carex09 1 year ago
@Carex09 I thought about it seriously enough to come to the conclusions I put in the notes. However, it's true that whenever suicide became an option, I chose one of the other options.
SpokenVerse 1 year ago
At last, we have found the secret to Bukowski's longevity!!! This is what he is saying: That thinking of suicide is a veritable drink from the fountain of youth. Just wanted to be really clear about what the author was meaning here. There is incredible sadness in this poem, that I think people miss. The failure of failure. The more you want it, the further it slips from you. Not really a good poem for people thinking of suicide because it is frickin' depressing on a deeper level.
Carex09 1 year ago
@Carex09 I had better mention that "cathartic" in psycho-speak means a discharge of pent-up emotions which alleviates the condition.
SpokenVerse 1 year ago
@SpokenVerse
"And if the cloud bursts, thunder in your ear
You shout and no one seems to hear.
And if the band you're in starts playing different tunes
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon." - Roger Waters
Till then kid, the shallow pond shall be your ocean.
Carex09 1 year ago
@Carex09 "The more you want it, the further it slips from you" ~ my thoughts exactly.
SadSak08 1 year ago 2
@SpokenVerse Take it from one who knows, thinking about suicide NOT cathartic. It's a dialogue with the realisation of the inevitable void.
colourmegone 6 months ago
@colourmegone Pity that Bukowski's not still here. Then you could set him straight..
SpokenVerse 6 months ago
GODDAMN
Kaknelson 1 year ago
very brave to take on such a profound piece ~ in such a deep and well researched way. All part of life though!
fmsfryton 1 year ago
Charles Bukowski's world is possible a place to infrequently visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
palcsi 1 year ago
Nihilists like me would siagree. But then again that philosophy is like the seasons, it rolls in and out. Today it's a big snowy winter fun land. And it has been for quite sometime.
Gjkl345 1 year ago
Cont. from previous comment - Depression can be a physical pain, and like with physical pain, there's only so much that one can endure.
MrHeslopian 1 year ago
Cont. from previous comment - And like I said, suicide isn't always a choice. It isn't always about self-loathing, but about ending pain.
MrHeslopian 1 year ago
@MrHeslopian Thank you. I made the notes clearer. Take a look, perhaps you will find them more useful.
SpokenVerse 1 year ago
@SpokenVerse I've read the notes. I always read your notes. I found this one, like your others, interesting, and was grateful for the link. However, I don't think you covered all the reasons why one might take their own life, and your previous comments suggest that you haven't even considered them. Not all suicides make the leap in a blaze of destruction designed to attract chaos, or even because they pity themselves.
MrHeslopian 1 year ago
Bukowski is the American Poet equivilent of Arthur Schopenhauer, though, neither of those two have true equals.
BigBruinekool 1 year ago
Cont. from previous comment - I fucking hate it when people say that one should think how lucky one is. If I was lucky, then I wouldn't have this utter confusion, this brain-rotting disease, where I feel like I might smash my head against a big brick wall. No wonder so many suicides occur, when chronic, or manic, depressives are given such shitty "advice."
MrHeslopian 1 year ago
@MrHeslopian Quote "My interior soliloquies were circular, self-pitying, and exasperating, along the lines of: I don't deserve to live, but I don't have the courage to kill myself, which makes me even less worthy to live..." unquote
Suicides commit violent crimes against themselves and others. They are good at creating emergencies that can't be ignored. If you really must, please die quietly without creating a fuss or endangering others. But where's the fun in that, right?
SpokenVerse 1 year ago
@SpokenVerse I love your readings, and will continue to listen to your work, but my God that was a horrible thing you just said. True suicide - and I'm not talking about the attnetion seekers, but people who suffer from REAL mental illness - isn't inspired by a need to create a spectacle. Yes, suicide does cause suffering for others, but you wouldn't tell a man trapped in rubble to stop screaming for help, because it was inconsiderate to the people around him. Or maybe you would.
MrHeslopian 1 year ago
@MrHeslopian I made the best argument I could for staying alive. Suicide is voluntary, you get to choose the manner, the means, the time and the place. Why is it unreasonable to ask you to be considerate?
SpokenVerse 1 year ago
@SpokenVerse No. When you're seriously depressed, you cannot think with such logic. You're stuck inside the present tense, and can only focus on your pain, the fact that you're suffering, and that you must end said suffering. Please don't talk about being considerate when you've clearly never struggled with a mental illness. At my lowest ebb, I felt such an intense pain in the pit of my stomach that all I could think about was killing myself. I pulled through, but others might not be as lucky.
MrHeslopian 1 year ago
@SpokenVerse Regardless of fun, suicide is self-aborbent. If one simply wishes, it can hold staying factors of reality inside their heads be it human or existential liferopes. But from experience, one could always see it this way: If the human by default is given freedoms and liberties that only the mind can decipher and ommit, then it is by default that a human should not give a danmed if he/she so chooses about the "economy" of entire realities. Unless it is in the way.
Gjkl345 1 year ago
@Gjkl345 I have trouble understanding anything not written in clear definitive sentences. I'm sorry about that.
SpokenVerse 1 year ago
@SpokenVerse People are functions. Emotion is function. Think like a narcisist or the best egotist that thinks practically with what options are available in suicide. This is a counter, to equate suicide as a practical goal and have means to attain it even changing those obstacles in your way. Suicide is voluntary, but EQ and IQ are very different levels of the mind, but will correspond constantly. If someone has the emotive means to do so, then supplemented with IQ, he/she can.
Gjkl345 1 year ago
@Gjkl345 Nope, I'm sorry I don't know what that means. Maybe I'm just stupid today
SpokenVerse 1 year ago
@SpokenVerse Or maybe it's a combined effort of your stupidity and my insomnia these last weeks and months. Sorry if I didn't phrase well.
Gjkl345 1 year ago
To my mind, suicide isn't always a choice. Sometimes, when you've reached your lowest ebb, not just through external misfortune - disease, bereavement, acrimonious divorce etc. - but and/or internal dysfunction, when the sadness and confusion overwhelm you, you can only think in the present tense, and all you know is that you're suffering and that you need to end that suffering. Being told there's light at the end of the tunnel doesn't help, because all you can see and feel is said tunnel.
MrHeslopian 1 year ago
Absolutely incredible, highly poignant. Having suffered and dealt desperately with depression in the past I know this feeling as conveyed here all too well. This hits it bang on the button!
VisionGhostPoet 1 year ago
Suicide is just as sick as any terminal disease, just as unfortunate as any accidental death, just as worthy of compassion -- and beside, I don't see what the horror is to hurry up an inevitable event -- sad, yes, stupid, maybe. The disdain expressed for suicide is appalling to me and the excess concern for survivors seems specious at best when a person has been so disconnected as to kill themselves -- selfish twit, how could you do this to me! heh, sorry -- pet peeve.
liz1060 1 year ago 6
A gem.
thruthem 1 year ago
Here's my take on it for what it is worth
vudu8ball 1 year ago
Another beauty! Bukowski is my favorite poet. Loved your comments as well. Life is just a bunch of possibilities. Suicide seems to me to lack imagination. If things got that bad for me i would walk to Brazil just to see all those big brown bottoms :)
vudu8ball 1 year ago
thank you
pennilesscripple 1 year ago
being someone who never had a family but lived on the streets and raised myself, i would often have such thoughts. what changed my mind was not the idea that family or friends would be hurt, i had neither. literature offered me a window into thoughts of individuals who could create a music with words that gave, if not hope, a reason to continue, a reason to read another work of art that just may change one's mind about everything. oh and skateboarding too.
jeremyshambles 1 year ago 25
@jeremyshambles Your comment made me cry. Art, literature, has saved my life several times. If I ever really wanted to kill myself I would take up skateboarding. LOL I am fat old and stiff!
vudu8ball 1 year ago
Really inspirational write up. I sometimes get the feeling that things would be easier if I killed myself, but it's generally in the face of stress so I try and remind myself how selfish suicide is.
SupermarketZombies 1 year ago