And good news, the husband and wife found information on the Internet about a golf course -- a favorite hobby -- located in their next destination: Rwanda.
Having recently spent 18 months with the people of Uganda and Ethiopia, assisting and leading relief efforts, when the Wilkeses returned home they realized their work wasn't yet done. So on Monday they left for Africa again, this time to help ease the suffering of a growing refugee population.
"We have three of the cutest granddaughters ever," Brad Wilkes said in a news release. "(We) love Maui, spent a month there this spring. But funny thing -- nothing beats the satisfaction of serving a mission. We'll have plenty of time to hang out with the grandkids when we are 65 and Hawaii will always be there."
as late as 1921, E. Wesley Smith, president of the Hawaii temple, told future church Prophet, apostle Joseph Fielding Smith, "A man came through the door. He was tall enough to have to stoop to enter. His eyes were very protruding and rather wild-looking, his fingernails were thick and long.
He ... wore no clothing ... (I) commanded the person in the name of Jesus Christ to depart. ... on being commanded to leave, he backed out the door." Fielding Smith told Wesley Smith that it was Cain who visited him.
Patten was killed a few years later fighting anti-Mormons. This account is secondhand, from LDS apostle Abraham O. Smoot. Nevertheless, it is accepted Mormon lore, included in the late Prophet Spencer W. Kimball's still-published book, "The Miracle of Forgiveness." That lends it credibility in LDS circles. I recall hearing it often on Sundays as a child. In fact, those outside the LDS Church don't know that Cain plays a bigger, more malevolent role in the LDS scripture "Pearl of Great Price."
"These buildings have been built to take advantage of the wonderful and miraculous technology that will allow the university and Church to reach the hearts and minds of members and friends across the world," said President Eyring.
In this political context, the LDS Church leadership has supported a more permissive approach to immigration policy than that promoted by many other conservatives. The Church endorsed the Utah Compact, a declaration of five principles for a moderate state immigration policy.
Young men and women in the United States who volunteer for missionary work but lack proper documentation cannot safely cross the nation's borders. Laws designed to discourage illegal immigration can limit the religious freedom of Church members, many of whom came to the United States as children.
The borough's deputy mayor Councillor Jennie McCracken, the deputy mayor's consort Cllr Iain McCracken, Bracknell town mayor Cllr Gill Birch and Sandhurst town mayor Cllr Dale Birch all attended the service.
Cllr Dale Birch said: "It was a great honour to attend and to hear talks of such depth and emotion as well as learn more of the Mormon faith.
"We encountered warm and generous people who were living the theme of the 2011 ward conference."
Actually, that declaration is correct, if taken literally and to be precise. We do not possess in their entirety the papyri from which Joseph translated the BoA. As for false religion, ask God.Try His word as Christ commanded. Search the Scriptures. Study and apply the virtue of the word of God. Ask, knock and search in prayer and fasting. He should know.
We have enough of the papyri to prove that Joseph was making up the book of Abraham and you would know that if you did your research. He was still lying. I guarantee if we found the gold plates and they didn't say what Joseph thought they said the mormons would be making more excuses. You want to belong to a religion that has to do this. Think about it.
Sorry for your attitude. The gold plates were touched and seen by many. The translation is true. The book is here, it can be read and tested. God can be prayed about it. The Spirit answers, and leaves you with no excuse for your attitude and bashing. The Bible leaves you no escuse for your attitude. I want to belong to a religion who teaches me the truth about my God and my Christ and who can help bless me and my family. It is this. I thought. I studied. I tested. I prayed. I know.
@Wehrheim04 The Bible gets the order of the universe wrong on pg 1 & follows that up with 5 whole books of history that are completely unverified by archeology. Indeed, refuted by it. The BOM fairs even worse - far worse. But if you've found what makes you happy, run with it! I can think of worse things than Mormonism.
Could you please explain the mistakes in the order described? As for archeology, few fields have so many proofs, researches and confirmations on their side as biblical history. And we could lose 1000s of comments speaking of the many scientific 'truths' refuted during the centuries... some truly a witness to human fallibility and misplaced pride! As for the BoM, it fares much better - but you must be willing to see. I could not live happy with a lie, nor can any man. I know it is true.
If you are under the impression that the earth was created between two layers of water by artificial, temporary light, that there was life on earth before there were stars in the heavens, that there was vegetation on land before there was life in the sea etc. then I cannot help you. + Your personal feelings are evidence of Nothing. If yr faith makes you happy, congrats. I see no evidence for religious stories being fact.
If you are under the impression that iniquity and immorality, pride and vanity, riches and power give happiness, then go with it, and see what happens, or just read a good history essay.
So, you have no actual reply for my simply pointing out that whoever composed Genesis 1 had zero idea how the universe is ordered...? Why do you assume that I care for "iniquity, immorality, pride, vanity, riches, power"? I care for knowledge. Tell me how all these 'prophets' can keep getting everything dead wrong? For me the answer is simple: there is no prophecy. Ask yourself seriously if the sky has pillars (Job 26:11) or if Eden was in Jackson Missouri.
So, where are your replies to my points? It is not fair to overlook other people's points, requesting that they obey yours... Not fair at all. As for Moses, I repeat: is he using scientific terms? Should he talk about nuclear fusion, atomic creation and molecule forming, or maybe cell reproduction and genetic marking? He had the whole idea about the universe, since God showed him all, but he had to express it someway, 4000 yrs ago... And there IS order in the forms of life creation story.
You haven't made any points. The least God cd do to help Moses make Genesis believable to people of the future would have been to get the order of things right - Genesis fails even this small test. And YES precise details would make the Bible more believable. It is what it looks like - the product of a very ancient culture. I've been thru all this before, in fact I started as a creationist. I have no desire to go thru it again. It's a waste of time. Enjoy your faith & Goodbye!
You still overlook part of my answers... are you failing true faith and Gospel living because you assume the Bible should be a science textbook, or a biology manual? Why can't I expect a philosophy book to be a sports guide, then? Or a history essay to open before my eyes the wonders of geology? The Bible is a manual for life, for conduct, for interpersonal relationship and for faith. Have you read what C.S. Lewis wrote about this issue? If you were a strict creationist, well, we are not.
Each phase of the Creation was well planned before it was accomplished. Scripture tells us that the Lord God, created all things spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. The physical Creation itself was staged through ordered periods of time. In Genesis 22 and Moses, 23 those periods are called days.... Whether termed a day, a time, or an age, each phase was a period between two identifiable events—a division of eternity.
Period one included the creation of atmospheric heavens and physical earth, culminating in the emergence of light from darkness. In period two, the waters were divided between the surface of the earth and its atmospheric heavens. Provision was made for clouds and rain to give life to all that would later dwell upon the earth. In period three, plant life began. The earth was organized to bring forth grass, herbs, trees, and vegetation—each growing from its own seed.
Period four was a time of further development. Lights in the expanse of the heaven were organized so there could be seasons and other means of measuring time. During this period, the sun, the moon, the stars, and the earth were placed in proper relationship to one another. The sun, with its vast stores of hydrogen, was to serve as a giant furnace to provide light and heat for the earth and life upon it.
In period five, fish, fowl, and every living creature were added. They were made fruitful and able to multiply—in the sea and on the earth—each after its own kind.
In the sixth period, creation of life continued. The beasts of the earth were made after their kind, cattle after their kind, and everything which creepeth upon the earth—again, after its own kind. Then the Gods counseled together and said: Let us go down and form man in our image, after our likeness.
So the Gods went down to organize man in their own image, in the image of the Gods to form they him, male and female to form they them. Thus, Adam and Eve were formed. And they were blessed to be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
The seventh period was designated as a time of rest.
Try the Gospel, study the Scriptures and ask God, in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, to reveal its truth to you. This is the test. Live the Gospel and its teachings, follow the example of Christ and the teachings of His prophets, and you will know. Truly know the most important knowledge there is. And you will be free. Truly free, to study, learn, progress, in every field of life. I tried, and I know it is true, and not by my feelings only, but rationally, tangibly. Greetings from Italy.
By way of example: you will surely know that the Creation is described first spiritually, then phyisically, don't you? You care for knowledge, one of the main pillars of true religion: search for knowledge, for truth, zeal for learning... religious duties, for us. As what knowledge is there in bashing others, often sarcastically, for believing otherwise. Is this positive, does this bring peace in the world, happiness, unity? I beg to differ, strongly.
Your mere mention of sky pillars tells it all... Do you really believe that is literal? SO, God has wings as a chicken, is a fire, is love (literally speaking), is a spirit, flies like eagles... figurative language, metaphors, poetic expressions abound in the Bible, as in other writings, and were a common usage in Hebrew literature. Or is it all literal, according to your criticism for believing what is not literal? As for Eden, that is based on faith and revelation, not science.
Or, maybe, try to understand that words used in a book written 4000 years ago should be seen under the correct lens: isn't there an order in the creation chapters, or did God create man first, then plants, then animals, and finally water? How did the first manage to live, then? Do the stars in heaven give life to us, or does God (especially since, at the beginning, there was no death and God can certainly make living souls out of us)? Or do you believe that the 6 days are literal?
If so, I cannot help you. If you believe you know all about this, as many do, you are free to believe it. FInally, I did not express any personal feelings, I just stated my knowledge. I know the Gospel of Jesus Christ is true. It works. It is the only solution to all of the world's woes. Instead of empty sarcasm, try to reason: what would happen if 90% of mankind applied only 10% of Christ's teachings? Imagine, if you like. I see evidences all over, as much as prideful blindness ruining it all.
I watching the Joseph Smith Papers on BYU TV a few weeks ago and they were talking about the book of Abraham. Towards the end of the show one of the gentleman, clear as day, stated that they do not have the papryi that Joseph used to translate the book of Abraham. That is a bold face lie!! Would the mormon scholars stop lying to the mormon people and others about their false religion. It is absolutely appalling!!!
cont: What I mean by the "One" apostle is exactly that, a metaphysical apostle. For did not Christ pray in the 17th Chapter of John to the Father "that they may be one, as we are." He repeats it also 2 times more petitioning the Father to make them One, that they may be Like Him & the Father.
John uses a metaphor, he calls Christ. The WORD. Why? Because when he speaks it happens. Since they DID NOT become ONE metaphysical person your notion of Trinity is incorrect and your faith is in error...
Con't- Jesus was never a spirit child and had to work his way to Godhood. I stated in another blog that Jesus has always been God (read John 1). Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Heb. 13:8). Col. 1:16,17 states "all things were created by Him (Jesus) and for Him(Jesus)... To say God was not always God and Jesus not always God is blashemy to the core!! In Galatians 1:6-10 Paul foresaw the likes of Mormonism coming. Jesus Christ is God!! Not a god.
Indeed Jesus was God. Don't you know Christ is the God of the Old Testament, even Jehovah. Jesus was God, is God and forever will be God, indeed. He is not a God. He is God. The Father is God. The Holy Ghost is God, each in his own respect. Perfect. Glorious. Exalted. Majestic. Now, we must understand what 'infinite and eternal' means. What if you add 100000 to ∞? It always gives ∞. But an infinite quantity is an infinite sum of finite quantities. God is eternal and infinite, indeed.
The real issue is what is the nature of God and who is Jesus Christ. To believe that God was an exalted man and we can, through exaltation, become a god is totally non-Biblical. In John 4:24 Jesus said "God is spirit and to worship Him in spirit and in truth. To say that God is an exalted man is calling Jesus a liar. GOD IS SPIRIT. To say that man can become a god is also false. Isaiah 43:10 says "before me there was no God formed neither shall there be after me. Mormons aren't going to make it.
Non biblical? Ever read something about the Christian doctrine of theosis (Christian before some human council expelled it from Christendom )? And what about 'being perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect', 'Ye are gods', 'heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ' etc. in the BIBLE? We are not going to make it. Christ will. To deny the most exalting and loving feature of God's plan of happiness, salvation and exaltation is so sad, so unbiblical, so false. Why doing it?
I love the God is spirit argument. So short sighted in the end.
So in order to worship him in spirit, do you take off your body and leave it in the car when you go to church? Do you hang it in your closet before you kneel to pray? You either haven't worshiped God then in spirit or you haven't understood what John was really getting across.
You are not disputing the fact that the mormons believe that God was a man and exhalted to Godhood. Believing in this is false doctrine and not Christianity.
Can I get somebody to just admit that this is what mormonism teaches instead of dogging the issue.
"The real issue is what is the nature of God and who is Jesus Christ" - I can't agree with you more. In fact Joseph Smith said, "The first principle of organized religion is to KNOW who God is" If you don't have a correct understanding of WHO God is then you cannot have Faith. Which Paul says is a hope for things that are not seen that are real.
So I'll put this argument out. If you believe in the Trinity or oneness of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Then you must believe in the 1 Apostle...
According to Joseph Smith the first principle of the gospel is to know what kind of a being God is... He goes on to say that God was once a man like us and dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ did. This is not Bibilical and excludes mormonism from being Christian forever!!!
Also if its the FIRST principle why isn't in the Book of Mormon. According to Joseph the BofM is the most correct book and one would get nearer to God by abiding by it than by any other book.
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. (John 6:46.) Moses was "of God"(Deut 33:1), as well as Samuel (1Sam 9:10), Shemaiah (1Kings 12:22), and Elijah (1Kings 17:24).
How did Joseph see God and live in 1820? According to D&C 84:22 "For without this [authority of the priesthood] no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live." He should of died in the grove. According to D&C 13 on May 15, 1829 Joseph along with Oliver Cowdry received the Aaronic Priesthood. Joseph received the Melchizedek Priesthood sometime between May of 1829 and April 6, 1830 (start of the church). No one really knows the exact date.
You forget that God can intervene and, exceptionally, provide for these occasions. If He had to show Himself to Joseph to call Him as a Prophet, evidently Joseph could not have the Priesthood already, but with God's intervention, Joseph was preserved and permitted to experience what he did. As for the exact date, what does it matter? Do we know the exact date when Moses received the tablets?
If Joseph could see God and live without the preisthood then what was the purpose of D&C 84:22? Yes God can intervene. God can do whatever He wants. However, God does not contradict what He says. The Bible says in John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12 that No man has seen God at any time. So even with the priesthood NO MAN can see God.
Early Christian author Irenaeus wrote in A.D. 180 that this scripture should be read For "no man," he says, "hath seen God at any time," unless "the only-begotten Son of God, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared [Him]." Interestingly, Joseph Smith's revision of the Bible agrees with Irenaeus' reading: "No man hath seen God at any time except he hath borne record of the Son". It's very dangerous and potentially misleading to take one verse neglecting all the others...
John was one of the twelve disciples who walked and talked with Jesus right? Of course he saw Jesus who was 100% God and 100% man. We know he saw Jesus so why would he state in two places in the Bible (John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12) that no man has seen God. He is talking about God the Father who is spirit. I don't argue that man has not seen God (Jesus), because obviously they have. Joseph claimed he saw God the Father and Jesus and thus incorporating his pluarity of gods doctrine which is false.
God is not a spirit, or you have to believe He is also a fire, has wings etc. as the Bible describes Him. These are qualities, descriptions of some of His characteristics, not substances (He is not made of immaterial spirit, or of fire, or has wings etc.). When you say someone is a spiritual person, it does not mean she is made of immaterial spirit. Joseph saw the Two of Them because there are Two of Them, as the Bible clearly shows (in Jesus' own words, especially, and He should know!).
When you say God is not a spirit you are saying that Jesus is lying when he says that God is spirit (John 4:24). Show me in the Bible that God and Jesus are two different gods. You say it clearly states in the Bible that they are separate as Joseph Smith saw them in his vision. Give me chapter and verse. Mormons are polytheist and Christians are monotheist. Neither the twain shall meet. End of argument!!!
The word is is italicized in the KJV because the translators have inserted it on their own—it is not present in the Greek text from which the translation was made. The indefinite article (a, as in "a dog" or "a spirit") does not exist in Greek. Thus, the addition of the word "a" in English occurs at the discretion of the translators. This leaves two Greek words: theos pneuma, "God spirit. The word pneuma, which is translated spirit, also means life or breath.
Rev. 13:15 renders pneuma as life. Thus "God is life," or "God is the breath of life" are potential alternative translations of this verse. Also, if God is a spirit and we have to worship him in spirit and in truth, do mortals have to leave our bodies to worship him? Answer, if you can, or stop contending with the Spirit of the Lord and of His Word and trust Them! You are also polytheist, since you believe in a Trinity, not in a Unity. Ask a Jew or Muslim what literal monotheism is.
Yes, Bible believing Christians do believe in the Trinity. However, it is still one God not 3 as the mormons believe. Nowhere in the Bible does it say they are 3 separate gods. The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is within the nature of the ONE God there are three eternal persons the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Three persons, ONE deity.
I am glad you admitted on being a polytheist. However, that belief will send mormons to eternal hell. Only the one true Biblical God can save.
f you believe in the traditional concept of Trinity, then you do not believe in what the Bible says. I gave the Scripture references, and you should have the courtesy to check about the three separate personages, since we are sharing our views. Three Persons, One God, indeed. That's what we believe, but we understand it differently. The difference is that we do not go around bashing others for believing otherwise and threatening them with hellfire. Totally unbecoming a Christian. Why? Why?
It is not polite to say 'end of argument' so abruptly, especially since the argument is not closed. Nor is it polite to challenge another's faith with expressions like 'Give me' or 'Show me'. Let's lower the tone, please. As for your first question, the Apostle of the Lord, Jeffrey R. Holland, has recently spoken on the subject at the Oct 2007 general conference. You'll find many answers there, clear and scriptural.
Nearly a score of scholars associated with the Joseph Smith Papers project spent more than 3 hours February 20 in a question-answer session about their work. The anticipated 30-volume documentary-editing project, under the auspices of the Church History Department, aims to compile in scholarly form every document that the Prophet produced or caused to be produced in his lifetime.
Joseph Smith, Jun., Sidney Rigdon and Frederick G. Williams were acknowledged presidents by the voice of the council; and Joseph Smith, Sen., John Smith, Joseph Coe, John Johnson, Martin Harris, John S. Carter, Jared Carter, Oliver Cowdery, Samuel H. Smith, Orson Hyde, Sylvester Smith, and Luke Johnson, high priests, were chosen to be a standing council for the church, by the unanimous voice of the council.
Man, these whole Mormon vs Other Religion battles are so old and played out and such a waste of time, Mormons who get involved in this man, they are just as lost. There is so much happening in the world that is happening now that Ether Chapter 8 speaks about and most Mormons are suffering these things to participate in mindless pointless folly.
I do look forward to reading these texts and hopefully people spend more time reading about the things that matter then resorting to mindless comment
Be a Mormon. Stand up for all that is wonderful
omiolo 4 months ago
And good news, the husband and wife found information on the Internet about a golf course -- a favorite hobby -- located in their next destination: Rwanda.
Having recently spent 18 months with the people of Uganda and Ethiopia, assisting and leading relief efforts, when the Wilkeses returned home they realized their work wasn't yet done. So on Monday they left for Africa again, this time to help ease the suffering of a growing refugee population.
omiolo 4 months ago
"We have three of the cutest granddaughters ever," Brad Wilkes said in a news release. "(We) love Maui, spent a month there this spring. But funny thing -- nothing beats the satisfaction of serving a mission. We'll have plenty of time to hang out with the grandkids when we are 65 and Hawaii will always be there."
omiolo 4 months ago
as late as 1921, E. Wesley Smith, president of the Hawaii temple, told future church Prophet, apostle Joseph Fielding Smith, "A man came through the door. He was tall enough to have to stoop to enter. His eyes were very protruding and rather wild-looking, his fingernails were thick and long.
omiolo 4 months ago
He ... wore no clothing ... (I) commanded the person in the name of Jesus Christ to depart. ... on being commanded to leave, he backed out the door." Fielding Smith told Wesley Smith that it was Cain who visited him.
omiolo 4 months ago
Patten was killed a few years later fighting anti-Mormons. This account is secondhand, from LDS apostle Abraham O. Smoot. Nevertheless, it is accepted Mormon lore, included in the late Prophet Spencer W. Kimball's still-published book, "The Miracle of Forgiveness." That lends it credibility in LDS circles. I recall hearing it often on Sundays as a child. In fact, those outside the LDS Church don't know that Cain plays a bigger, more malevolent role in the LDS scripture "Pearl of Great Price."
omiolo 4 months ago
Latter-day Saints in United Kingdom and Utah Perform Together in Musical
August 12, 2011
omiolo 4 months ago
"These buildings have been built to take advantage of the wonderful and miraculous technology that will allow the university and Church to reach the hearts and minds of members and friends across the world," said President Eyring.
omiolo 4 months ago
In this political context, the LDS Church leadership has supported a more permissive approach to immigration policy than that promoted by many other conservatives. The Church endorsed the Utah Compact, a declaration of five principles for a moderate state immigration policy.
omiolo 5 months ago
Young men and women in the United States who volunteer for missionary work but lack proper documentation cannot safely cross the nation's borders. Laws designed to discourage illegal immigration can limit the religious freedom of Church members, many of whom came to the United States as children.
omiolo 5 months ago
The complete journey of Book of Mormon is 'a story worth knowing'
omiolo 5 months ago
The borough's deputy mayor Councillor Jennie McCracken, the deputy mayor's consort Cllr Iain McCracken, Bracknell town mayor Cllr Gill Birch and Sandhurst town mayor Cllr Dale Birch all attended the service.
Cllr Dale Birch said: "It was a great honour to attend and to hear talks of such depth and emotion as well as learn more of the Mormon faith.
"We encountered warm and generous people who were living the theme of the 2011 ward conference."
omiolo 5 months ago
Actually, that declaration is correct, if taken literally and to be precise. We do not possess in their entirety the papyri from which Joseph translated the BoA. As for false religion, ask God.Try His word as Christ commanded. Search the Scriptures. Study and apply the virtue of the word of God. Ask, knock and search in prayer and fasting. He should know.
Wehrheim04 2 years ago
We have enough of the papyri to prove that Joseph was making up the book of Abraham and you would know that if you did your research. He was still lying. I guarantee if we found the gold plates and they didn't say what Joseph thought they said the mormons would be making more excuses. You want to belong to a religion that has to do this. Think about it.
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
Sorry for your attitude. The gold plates were touched and seen by many. The translation is true. The book is here, it can be read and tested. God can be prayed about it. The Spirit answers, and leaves you with no excuse for your attitude and bashing. The Bible leaves you no escuse for your attitude. I want to belong to a religion who teaches me the truth about my God and my Christ and who can help bless me and my family. It is this. I thought. I studied. I tested. I prayed. I know.
Wehrheim04 2 years ago
@Wehrheim04 The Bible gets the order of the universe wrong on pg 1 & follows that up with 5 whole books of history that are completely unverified by archeology. Indeed, refuted by it. The BOM fairs even worse - far worse. But if you've found what makes you happy, run with it! I can think of worse things than Mormonism.
amaxamon 2 years ago
Could you please explain the mistakes in the order described? As for archeology, few fields have so many proofs, researches and confirmations on their side as biblical history. And we could lose 1000s of comments speaking of the many scientific 'truths' refuted during the centuries... some truly a witness to human fallibility and misplaced pride! As for the BoM, it fares much better - but you must be willing to see. I could not live happy with a lie, nor can any man. I know it is true.
Wehrheim04 2 years ago
If you are under the impression that the earth was created between two layers of water by artificial, temporary light, that there was life on earth before there were stars in the heavens, that there was vegetation on land before there was life in the sea etc. then I cannot help you. + Your personal feelings are evidence of Nothing. If yr faith makes you happy, congrats. I see no evidence for religious stories being fact.
amaxamon 2 years ago
If you are under the impression that iniquity and immorality, pride and vanity, riches and power give happiness, then go with it, and see what happens, or just read a good history essay.
Wehrheim04 2 years ago
So, you have no actual reply for my simply pointing out that whoever composed Genesis 1 had zero idea how the universe is ordered...? Why do you assume that I care for "iniquity, immorality, pride, vanity, riches, power"? I care for knowledge. Tell me how all these 'prophets' can keep getting everything dead wrong? For me the answer is simple: there is no prophecy. Ask yourself seriously if the sky has pillars (Job 26:11) or if Eden was in Jackson Missouri.
amaxamon 2 years ago
So, where are your replies to my points? It is not fair to overlook other people's points, requesting that they obey yours... Not fair at all. As for Moses, I repeat: is he using scientific terms? Should he talk about nuclear fusion, atomic creation and molecule forming, or maybe cell reproduction and genetic marking? He had the whole idea about the universe, since God showed him all, but he had to express it someway, 4000 yrs ago... And there IS order in the forms of life creation story.
Wehrheim04 2 years ago
You haven't made any points. The least God cd do to help Moses make Genesis believable to people of the future would have been to get the order of things right - Genesis fails even this small test. And YES precise details would make the Bible more believable. It is what it looks like - the product of a very ancient culture. I've been thru all this before, in fact I started as a creationist. I have no desire to go thru it again. It's a waste of time. Enjoy your faith & Goodbye!
amaxamon 2 years ago
You still overlook part of my answers... are you failing true faith and Gospel living because you assume the Bible should be a science textbook, or a biology manual? Why can't I expect a philosophy book to be a sports guide, then? Or a history essay to open before my eyes the wonders of geology? The Bible is a manual for life, for conduct, for interpersonal relationship and for faith. Have you read what C.S. Lewis wrote about this issue? If you were a strict creationist, well, we are not.
Wehrheim04 2 years ago
Each phase of the Creation was well planned before it was accomplished. Scripture tells us that the Lord God, created all things spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. The physical Creation itself was staged through ordered periods of time. In Genesis 22 and Moses, 23 those periods are called days.... Whether termed a day, a time, or an age, each phase was a period between two identifiable events—a division of eternity.
Wehrheim04 2 years ago
Period one included the creation of atmospheric heavens and physical earth, culminating in the emergence of light from darkness. In period two, the waters were divided between the surface of the earth and its atmospheric heavens. Provision was made for clouds and rain to give life to all that would later dwell upon the earth. In period three, plant life began. The earth was organized to bring forth grass, herbs, trees, and vegetation—each growing from its own seed.
Wehrheim04 2 years ago
Period four was a time of further development. Lights in the expanse of the heaven were organized so there could be seasons and other means of measuring time. During this period, the sun, the moon, the stars, and the earth were placed in proper relationship to one another. The sun, with its vast stores of hydrogen, was to serve as a giant furnace to provide light and heat for the earth and life upon it.
Wehrheim04 2 years ago
In period five, fish, fowl, and every living creature were added. They were made fruitful and able to multiply—in the sea and on the earth—each after its own kind.
In the sixth period, creation of life continued. The beasts of the earth were made after their kind, cattle after their kind, and everything which creepeth upon the earth—again, after its own kind. Then the Gods counseled together and said: Let us go down and form man in our image, after our likeness.
Wehrheim04 2 years ago
So the Gods went down to organize man in their own image, in the image of the Gods to form they him, male and female to form they them. Thus, Adam and Eve were formed. And they were blessed to be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
The seventh period was designated as a time of rest.
(Elder Russell M. Nelson, 'The Creation').
Wehrheim04 2 years ago
Try the Gospel, study the Scriptures and ask God, in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, to reveal its truth to you. This is the test. Live the Gospel and its teachings, follow the example of Christ and the teachings of His prophets, and you will know. Truly know the most important knowledge there is. And you will be free. Truly free, to study, learn, progress, in every field of life. I tried, and I know it is true, and not by my feelings only, but rationally, tangibly. Greetings from Italy.
Wehrheim04 2 years ago
By way of example: you will surely know that the Creation is described first spiritually, then phyisically, don't you? You care for knowledge, one of the main pillars of true religion: search for knowledge, for truth, zeal for learning... religious duties, for us. As what knowledge is there in bashing others, often sarcastically, for believing otherwise. Is this positive, does this bring peace in the world, happiness, unity? I beg to differ, strongly.
Wehrheim04 2 years ago
Your mere mention of sky pillars tells it all... Do you really believe that is literal? SO, God has wings as a chicken, is a fire, is love (literally speaking), is a spirit, flies like eagles... figurative language, metaphors, poetic expressions abound in the Bible, as in other writings, and were a common usage in Hebrew literature. Or is it all literal, according to your criticism for believing what is not literal? As for Eden, that is based on faith and revelation, not science.
Wehrheim04 2 years ago
Or, maybe, try to understand that words used in a book written 4000 years ago should be seen under the correct lens: isn't there an order in the creation chapters, or did God create man first, then plants, then animals, and finally water? How did the first manage to live, then? Do the stars in heaven give life to us, or does God (especially since, at the beginning, there was no death and God can certainly make living souls out of us)? Or do you believe that the 6 days are literal?
Wehrheim04 2 years ago
If so, I cannot help you. If you believe you know all about this, as many do, you are free to believe it. FInally, I did not express any personal feelings, I just stated my knowledge. I know the Gospel of Jesus Christ is true. It works. It is the only solution to all of the world's woes. Instead of empty sarcasm, try to reason: what would happen if 90% of mankind applied only 10% of Christ's teachings? Imagine, if you like. I see evidences all over, as much as prideful blindness ruining it all.
Wehrheim04 2 years ago
I watching the Joseph Smith Papers on BYU TV a few weeks ago and they were talking about the book of Abraham. Towards the end of the show one of the gentleman, clear as day, stated that they do not have the papryi that Joseph used to translate the book of Abraham. That is a bold face lie!! Would the mormon scholars stop lying to the mormon people and others about their false religion. It is absolutely appalling!!!
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
cont: What I mean by the "One" apostle is exactly that, a metaphysical apostle. For did not Christ pray in the 17th Chapter of John to the Father "that they may be one, as we are." He repeats it also 2 times more petitioning the Father to make them One, that they may be Like Him & the Father.
John uses a metaphor, he calls Christ. The WORD. Why? Because when he speaks it happens. Since they DID NOT become ONE metaphysical person your notion of Trinity is incorrect and your faith is in error...
seomike07 2 years ago
Con't- Jesus was never a spirit child and had to work his way to Godhood. I stated in another blog that Jesus has always been God (read John 1). Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Heb. 13:8). Col. 1:16,17 states "all things were created by Him (Jesus) and for Him(Jesus)... To say God was not always God and Jesus not always God is blashemy to the core!! In Galatians 1:6-10 Paul foresaw the likes of Mormonism coming. Jesus Christ is God!! Not a god.
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
Indeed Jesus was God. Don't you know Christ is the God of the Old Testament, even Jehovah. Jesus was God, is God and forever will be God, indeed. He is not a God. He is God. The Father is God. The Holy Ghost is God, each in his own respect. Perfect. Glorious. Exalted. Majestic. Now, we must understand what 'infinite and eternal' means. What if you add 100000 to ∞? It always gives ∞. But an infinite quantity is an infinite sum of finite quantities. God is eternal and infinite, indeed.
Wehrheim04 2 years ago
The real issue is what is the nature of God and who is Jesus Christ. To believe that God was an exalted man and we can, through exaltation, become a god is totally non-Biblical. In John 4:24 Jesus said "God is spirit and to worship Him in spirit and in truth. To say that God is an exalted man is calling Jesus a liar. GOD IS SPIRIT. To say that man can become a god is also false. Isaiah 43:10 says "before me there was no God formed neither shall there be after me. Mormons aren't going to make it.
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
Non biblical? Ever read something about the Christian doctrine of theosis (Christian before some human council expelled it from Christendom )? And what about 'being perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect', 'Ye are gods', 'heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ' etc. in the BIBLE? We are not going to make it. Christ will. To deny the most exalting and loving feature of God's plan of happiness, salvation and exaltation is so sad, so unbiblical, so false. Why doing it?
Wehrheim04 2 years ago
I love the God is spirit argument. So short sighted in the end.
So in order to worship him in spirit, do you take off your body and leave it in the car when you go to church? Do you hang it in your closet before you kneel to pray? You either haven't worshiped God then in spirit or you haven't understood what John was really getting across.
seomike07 2 years ago
You are not disputing the fact that the mormons believe that God was a man and exhalted to Godhood. Believing in this is false doctrine and not Christianity.
Can I get somebody to just admit that this is what mormonism teaches instead of dogging the issue.
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
"The real issue is what is the nature of God and who is Jesus Christ" - I can't agree with you more. In fact Joseph Smith said, "The first principle of organized religion is to KNOW who God is" If you don't have a correct understanding of WHO God is then you cannot have Faith. Which Paul says is a hope for things that are not seen that are real.
So I'll put this argument out. If you believe in the Trinity or oneness of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Then you must believe in the 1 Apostle...
seomike07 2 years ago
According to Joseph Smith the first principle of the gospel is to know what kind of a being God is... He goes on to say that God was once a man like us and dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ did. This is not Bibilical and excludes mormonism from being Christian forever!!!
Also if its the FIRST principle why isn't in the Book of Mormon. According to Joseph the BofM is the most correct book and one would get nearer to God by abiding by it than by any other book.
It doesn't add up.
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
NO MAN? Read: Acts 7:55-56 Gen. 32:30 Gen. 17:1 Gen. 18:1 Acts 7:2 Ex. 3:6 Ex. 19:11 Ex. 33:11 Num. 12:7-8 1 Kings 9:2 1 Kings 11:9 Is. 6:1,5 Ex. 24:10-11 Deut. 34:10 Deut. 5:4 Jud. 13:22 Heb. 11:27 Job 42:5 Job 33:26 Job 19:26 Ez. 1:1 Ez. 8:1-4 Josh. 5:12-15 Rev. 22:4.
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. (John 6:46.) Moses was "of God"(Deut 33:1), as well as Samuel (1Sam 9:10), Shemaiah (1Kings 12:22), and Elijah (1Kings 17:24).
Wehrheim04 2 years ago
How did Joseph see God and live in 1820? According to D&C 84:22 "For without this [authority of the priesthood] no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live." He should of died in the grove. According to D&C 13 on May 15, 1829 Joseph along with Oliver Cowdry received the Aaronic Priesthood. Joseph received the Melchizedek Priesthood sometime between May of 1829 and April 6, 1830 (start of the church). No one really knows the exact date.
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
You forget that God can intervene and, exceptionally, provide for these occasions. If He had to show Himself to Joseph to call Him as a Prophet, evidently Joseph could not have the Priesthood already, but with God's intervention, Joseph was preserved and permitted to experience what he did. As for the exact date, what does it matter? Do we know the exact date when Moses received the tablets?
Wehrheim04 2 years ago
If Joseph could see God and live without the preisthood then what was the purpose of D&C 84:22? Yes God can intervene. God can do whatever He wants. However, God does not contradict what He says. The Bible says in John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12 that No man has seen God at any time. So even with the priesthood NO MAN can see God.
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
Early Christian author Irenaeus wrote in A.D. 180 that this scripture should be read For "no man," he says, "hath seen God at any time," unless "the only-begotten Son of God, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared [Him]." Interestingly, Joseph Smith's revision of the Bible agrees with Irenaeus' reading: "No man hath seen God at any time except he hath borne record of the Son". It's very dangerous and potentially misleading to take one verse neglecting all the others...
Wehrheim04 2 years ago
John was one of the twelve disciples who walked and talked with Jesus right? Of course he saw Jesus who was 100% God and 100% man. We know he saw Jesus so why would he state in two places in the Bible (John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12) that no man has seen God. He is talking about God the Father who is spirit. I don't argue that man has not seen God (Jesus), because obviously they have. Joseph claimed he saw God the Father and Jesus and thus incorporating his pluarity of gods doctrine which is false.
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
God is not a spirit, or you have to believe He is also a fire, has wings etc. as the Bible describes Him. These are qualities, descriptions of some of His characteristics, not substances (He is not made of immaterial spirit, or of fire, or has wings etc.). When you say someone is a spiritual person, it does not mean she is made of immaterial spirit. Joseph saw the Two of Them because there are Two of Them, as the Bible clearly shows (in Jesus' own words, especially, and He should know!).
Wehrheim04 2 years ago
When you say God is not a spirit you are saying that Jesus is lying when he says that God is spirit (John 4:24). Show me in the Bible that God and Jesus are two different gods. You say it clearly states in the Bible that they are separate as Joseph Smith saw them in his vision. Give me chapter and verse. Mormons are polytheist and Christians are monotheist. Neither the twain shall meet. End of argument!!!
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
The word is is italicized in the KJV because the translators have inserted it on their own—it is not present in the Greek text from which the translation was made. The indefinite article (a, as in "a dog" or "a spirit") does not exist in Greek. Thus, the addition of the word "a" in English occurs at the discretion of the translators. This leaves two Greek words: theos pneuma, "God spirit. The word pneuma, which is translated spirit, also means life or breath.
Wehrheim04 2 years ago
Rev. 13:15 renders pneuma as life. Thus "God is life," or "God is the breath of life" are potential alternative translations of this verse. Also, if God is a spirit and we have to worship him in spirit and in truth, do mortals have to leave our bodies to worship him? Answer, if you can, or stop contending with the Spirit of the Lord and of His Word and trust Them! You are also polytheist, since you believe in a Trinity, not in a Unity. Ask a Jew or Muslim what literal monotheism is.
Wehrheim04 2 years ago
Yes, Bible believing Christians do believe in the Trinity. However, it is still one God not 3 as the mormons believe. Nowhere in the Bible does it say they are 3 separate gods. The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is within the nature of the ONE God there are three eternal persons the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Three persons, ONE deity.
I am glad you admitted on being a polytheist. However, that belief will send mormons to eternal hell. Only the one true Biblical God can save.
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
f you believe in the traditional concept of Trinity, then you do not believe in what the Bible says. I gave the Scripture references, and you should have the courtesy to check about the three separate personages, since we are sharing our views. Three Persons, One God, indeed. That's what we believe, but we understand it differently. The difference is that we do not go around bashing others for believing otherwise and threatening them with hellfire. Totally unbecoming a Christian. Why? Why?
Wehrheim04 2 years ago
It is not polite to say 'end of argument' so abruptly, especially since the argument is not closed. Nor is it polite to challenge another's faith with expressions like 'Give me' or 'Show me'. Let's lower the tone, please. As for your first question, the Apostle of the Lord, Jeffrey R. Holland, has recently spoken on the subject at the Oct 2007 general conference. You'll find many answers there, clear and scriptural.
Wehrheim04 2 years ago
Nearly a score of scholars associated with the Joseph Smith Papers project spent more than 3 hours February 20 in a question-answer session about their work. The anticipated 30-volume documentary-editing project, under the auspices of the Church History Department, aims to compile in scholarly form every document that the Prophet produced or caused to be produced in his lifetime.
omiolo 3 years ago
Joseph Smith, Jun., Sidney Rigdon and Frederick G. Williams were acknowledged presidents by the voice of the council; and Joseph Smith, Sen., John Smith, Joseph Coe, John Johnson, Martin Harris, John S. Carter, Jared Carter, Oliver Cowdery, Samuel H. Smith, Orson Hyde, Sylvester Smith, and Luke Johnson, high priests, were chosen to be a standing council for the church, by the unanimous voice of the council.
omiolo1 3 years ago
Man, these whole Mormon vs Other Religion battles are so old and played out and such a waste of time, Mormons who get involved in this man, they are just as lost. There is so much happening in the world that is happening now that Ether Chapter 8 speaks about and most Mormons are suffering these things to participate in mindless pointless folly.
I do look forward to reading these texts and hopefully people spend more time reading about the things that matter then resorting to mindless comment
StillSmallVoices 3 years ago
I am looking forward to buying the volumes!
omiolo1 3 years ago