EDISON LONG PLAY & KITTEN ON THE KEYS 1921 ZEZ CONFREY Diamond Disc Phonograph

[EmmetEarwax]

I have this very record along with a Ernie Jones & Billy Hare record as the two "hill & dale" records in my 78 shellac collection. Edison made them thick -HIS method to make them unbreakable. The flip side is "Monastery Bells Waltz". I just rooted it out and tested it on my stereo to be SURe that the hill & dale grooves would play -my other phonograph's speaker is bummed out.

[mrmjb1960]

At 80 RPM,it was a pretty revolutionary Player for its time,and it is still amazing..to actually play over 30 minutes at that speed..WOW! I'm amazed!

[sanfranphono]

@mrmjb1960 Actually that's a bit of marketing obfuscation, the 10" record played about 12 mins per side, the 12" record 20 mins. so both sides = 24 mins/ 40 mins.

OTOH, late Deutsche Grammophon/ Telefunken regular 78 rpm records with "Engschrift" (Variable groove) get about 10 - 12 minutes per side of a regular, standard groove record, so there are better ways to do it.

[DeLorean4]

If Edison had used his long playing records for classical music he could have directly competed with the Victor red seals and remained in business. Thanks for uploading this to youtube. Simply amazing stuff.

[DeLorean4]

@DeLorean4 Or rather I should say, complete recordings of classical music.

[sanfranphono]

@DeLorean4 In theory, yes, but Edison's acoustic process was not good at all with classical orchestras. His recordings are all the usual studio band arrangements. And then - Edison could not record the full 20 mins directly, they were all dubbed from Diamond discs. Of the 14 or so Long Play titles, there is one record of dubs by German Violinist Carl Flesch. Indeed, the only multi record set that Edison ever offered (I think a Schubert Quartet) was recorded way towards the end of electric era.

[luvmyrecords]

WOW - you're too much! Thank you!

[luvmyrecords]

I know that all the Edison DD sleeves admonished to keep the speed at 80rpm, but honestly, the pitch of my DDs at 78 is correct (ie. Harry Lauder's "Breakfast in Your Bed on Sunday Morning" matches the electric Victor, some Chopin piano pieces, "Good-bye Girls, I'm Through" matches the sheet music key, etc.)

[sanfranphono]

@luvmyrecords not what the experts say, whom I respect.

They say invariably 80 rpm. Best way to test it is with a pitch pipe, if the instruments are playing on pitch.

[luvmyrecords]

@sanfranphono I agree and usually defer to the knowledge of experts - yourself included! - however, Rachmaninoff's "Prelude in C Sharp minor" comes out in that key on a 78 rpm turntable. However, the pitches (Carmen and Kitten) in this video are also correct, so if you're @ 80...well, I don't know what to say lol! To complicate matters further, A=440 wasn't necessarily always the standard even as recently as the '20s (I am a professional musician - playing older horns often can be a problem ).

[sanfranphono]

@luvmyrecords Hm, that is pure luck, these videos I did before I had a pitch pipe.

Oh boy, we are getting into the topic of historic pitches. I just assume that by 1920 they were pretty much using 440hz. Adelina Patti is assumed at 435 hz, and I only found one record (Clara Butt singing Land of Hope and Glory) where the British Brass Band still seems to be on the old British pitch.

Honestly, it's an area I play rather stupid at 440Hz and let the experts savage each other : )

[luvmyrecords]

@sanfranphono :) :) :) :) :)

[luvmyrecords]

@sanfranphono :) :) :) :) :) Oh - and THEN we have to deal with the fact that some modern turntables are a liiiiiittttttle fast (BSR was notorious) and the Garrard 120 a teeny bit slow. I'm going to just shut up now and

just enjoy the music!

[sanfranphono]

@luvmyrecords Well, the Garrards are slow because the oil in the motor and the bushing is gunked up.

Well, if the BSR is a little too fast and if it's an idler wheel, try to put one or two windings of a sliver of scotch tape around the stepped pulley - > bigger diameter - > slower speed.

It pays to have turntables with variable pitch, the DUALs 1200s are excellent, or you get a Garrard 4HF or RC98. (For these videos I do pitch correction in the computer : (

[luvmyrecords]

@sanfranphono :) :) :) :) :) Oh - and THEN we have to deal with the fact that some modern turntables are a liiiiiittttttle fast (BSR was notorious) and the Garrard 120 a teeny bit slow. I'm going to just shut up now and

just enjoy the music! BTW - thanks for a great video and the interesting information!

[DaMadFiddler]

I originally came across this video last summer when I was researching different types of acoustic phonographs. Ended up getting a Victor Credenza instead of an Edison, but this video did introduce me to Zez Confrey. Thank you for that :)

[EtrofOnaip]

I have an 84t record !

[KawhackitaRag]

Thanks for the post! It's great to hear a nice fidelity version of this Confrey recording, thanks!!!

And I'm sure had the Edison folks wised up and put some Beethoven symphonies, or Tschaikovsky, or something on their long-play records, they would have been hits!

[sanfranphono]

@mattluvsvox921 Only records after 1930 play at 78 rpm, before that speeds were all over the place. Edison Diamond Discs always play at 80 rpm.

[TheRiqzster]

@sanfranphono Why did the speed drop to 78 anyway? I've often wondered, but never knew. Edison, Columbia, Brunswick, Pathe . . . all were standardized at 80 rpm. Didn't the "engineers" at Victor know how to count either?

[sanfranphono]

@TheRiqzster You are asking the question the wrong way: Speeds started out all over from 65 rpm for early Berliners, 100 rpm for early pathes, each company had their own "official" speeds (why the engineers still recorded faster or slower is an unsolved mystery, not to talk of records where the lathe speeded up or slowed down during recording). The story goes that with the advent of electric motors companies slowly standardized at 78.25, this was an easy gearing ratio with the motors

[TheRiqzster]

@sanfranphono Well, that makes sense. Did Victor have a standard speed before then? Judging by the speed variations that result from pitching Victor records, I wouldn't be surprised they just turned the speed knob until it looked okay.

[sanfranphono]

@TheRiqzster You can see on many phonographs that the middle position of the speed regulator has a number - on Victor it was - I believe - 76 early, and the 78 in the 20s. Even though, actual speeds are all over the place, and it is assumed that many Vic records play at 76. But then if you look at the Caruso Discography, or use a pitch pipe to check the correct record speed, you'll find that there is no rhyme nor reason to actual speeds. Speeds were only really standardized in the early 1930s.

[hedablinka]

Interests: I've had a line of victrolas, I sold them all before the turn of the century. I did manage to find someone (and the parts) to have the playing head completely reworked/restored, new rubber seals etc; and of course the packets of new needles (about five plays per) were available--and that was before eBay. I also had an edison upright and an edison table cylinder player. The edison sound was better (the records were also less worn) but the music paled in interest. Go Victrola.

[Interests2009]

Very nice.

I hope to be the owner of an antique record player as such some day.

Thanks for sharing.

[sanfranphono]

@Interests2009 Check your craigslist. Edisons phonographs turn up quite often, and if you are willing to put in some sweat equity, you can have a nice machine easily. Just remember, Edison Diamond Disc phonographs only play Edison Discs, not Victrola records.

[Interests2009]

@sanfranphono--That's what I've read regarding the needles of these vintage Edisons. I am hoping for a RCA Victrola though. I don't know anything about reconditioning them. So, I've thought in buying one in mint condition, or one that has already been fixed. Most likely, it is something I will use mostly as decoration. I find them in antique shops like crazy. There are modern turntables made with 78+ RPM speeds on them which is what I would most likely use to play these with regularly.

[sanfranphono]

@Interests2009 strike RCA, strike Mint:

Victor and RCA only merged in 1929, and RCA-Victor did not make any good wind-ups.

Also get away from "Mint" - that refers to cabinet condition, and is usually an exaggeration. What you are really looking for is a fully serviced machine with no mechanical issues. Check back here in about 4 weeks when I will be featuring several great wind-up suitcase victrolas. They are a great and inexpensive way to get a Victrola. Join a Victrola discussion group.

[Interests2009]

@sanfranphono--It's kinda early for me to make a decision. I'll keep looking and I'll have that in mind. Thanks for letting me know.

[darksound1973]

Edison used sapphire stylus starting in 1889, on his standard speaker, for brown wax cylinders, so he was the first to use a semi permenant stili and not a needle like the disc gramophone.

[sanfranphono]

@darksound1973 That is understood, but it was on soft wax or metallic soap CYLINDERS. Pathe was the first one to use a jewel tipped stylus on hard shellac DISC records.

[earlnut]

CD122344 Is right, for years they couldn't figure out how Edison got those diamond balls to stick to the stylus. I think was was even later than the 50's when that one was figured out again. Edison did not patent that one because he didn't want the secret to get lost. And by the 30's it must not have seemed important anymore. I don't recall the part of Charles telling how to do it, but I know it wasn't until the later 70's before they could make those stylus's again for diamond disk's.

[sanfranphono]

Hm, wonder if you could find out what the secret process is. My understanding is that the diamond was nickel plated and then soldred to the stylus - that does not sound very difficult to me. BTW - they are cones, not balls. Nowadays, epoxy works just fine.

Best

[CD122344]

Also remember that Edison used a diamond needle while others were still using a steel point(which had to be changed often) well into the 1950s. Edison's competition could not figure out how he fused the diamond to the shank until his son Charles revealed it in the mid-1950s. Edison achieved micro-groove recording in the early 1910s some 40 years befor the LP

[sanfranphono]

@CD122344 Pathe already used permanent Sapphire styli on Pathe disc records starting 1905.

I don't think there is any secret of attaching diamonds, they are simply nickel plated and then soldered to the stylus.

Other companies stuck with steel needles for economic reasons: For edison to use diamonds - which are expensive and prone to chipping - he needed to develop records made from Bakelite - again very expensive. The softer shellac worked well with steel - much cheaper.

[earlnut]

The Pathe Sapphire's were not fastened the way the Edison diamonds were.

The sapphire point on the Pathe machines have a shaft on the back side that goes up into the shellac that holds them into place.

And the Sapphires are huge compared to the diamonds used for the disk machines and the Amberola phonographs.

[sanfranphono]

yep. but that was not my point. Pathe used jewel tipped styli on disk records before Edison did by at least 7 years.

Cheers

[sanfranphono]

@CD122344 Oh, and Edison achieved long play records only in 1926.

A failure from beginning to end: Live recording was impossible, so only dubbed records, the reproducing equiment was a crutch and would damage records after 2 or 3 plays. There was a reason why Edison pulled it from the market after less than a year.

Again, "micro-groove" RECORDING is trivial, RCA had a working system in 1933. However, the REPLAY of mg records with a light reproducer was not really solved until after WW II.

[ShitFromShinolla]

I had no idea Edison players were so well designed. This is the first time I've ever seen one play and explained so well. Isn't this like the first Linear Tracking tone arm system available to consumers? The floating head works perfectly. On electric turntables do you need a special cartridge to track these Edison records? Thanks for this educational video!

[sanfranphono]

@ShitFromShinolla Hey, actually it's neither linear tracking nor the first one. I forgot who - very early Sonora or Keenophone had a sideway travellign tone arm to avoid Victor patents.

This is an old canard that Edison had a linear tracker - the whole assembly is still swinging around a pivot and making an arc, only, because the pivot is in the front, the arc is the other way around than a regular victrola.

[ShitFromShinolla]

@sanfranphono It looks like a linear tracker in the video. I didn't know it was a canard to think that. I'm sorry I didn't mean to be canardish.

[sanfranphono]

@ShitFromShinolla Hey it may look that way, but the whole horn and tone arm pivots around the wooden handle at 5 o clock of the turntable. A linear tracker by definition is not mounted on a pivot, but slides laterally on a carriage.

No, you hear that claim once in a while that the Edison DD machines had a linear or tangetial tone arm. Which is just not true. Tell someone to put a wax crayon at the soundbox, and trace the movement on a blank record. You'll see.

Best

[scootron2000]

Edison was ahead of his time. That's the first time I heard a long playing Edison record. Even when I play an Edison record on a modern turntable with headphones, the sound is very good.

[sanfranphono]

@scootron2000

They sound great on an electric turntable, even the long play records. The early laminated DD from 1912 - 1914, if they are not cracked, are astonishing. Curiously enough, the standard RIAA equalization perfectly boost the bass on those DDs. It always struck me that DDs do not sound really great on an Edison machine, they come to their own only with electric replay, but then there is of course the bad surface noise on many of them....

[dl109er]

Really enjoyed this video. I have an Edison H-19 in the oak finish and I also have this same record - one of my favorites. Your machine is absolutely gorgeous. I'm surprised you're selling it.

[rweerakkody4565]

love this record

i mean these records

edison is still best till today!!!!!

[theorganguy]

3:30 Kitten on the Keys

[crazycrazyguggenheim]

ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Theognome]

Lemme guess- Zez Confrey himself doesn't play it fast enough for you?

[sanfranphono]

Yep, it's not a rare record.

There's also an Orchestra version with Confrey at the piano on Victor

Cheers

[JeremyPassarelli]

I Mean The Record.

[JeremyPassarelli]

50998-L: Can I Get This On eBay??

[JeremyPassarelli]

"Kitten On The Keys" Is My Favorite Song. I Love The Sound Quality!

[Moooperator]

WOW! more than just a machine playing... visually stimulating! And I didn't know the long plays were finer than the modern lp's! But I guess they would have to be since they play nearly 3 times as fast! Duh! Thanks!