Technocracy Forum (Part 1 of 2)

[Watchdawg]

300 pages, fuck man! Ok, here we goooo!

[PanzerDivisionBOM]

Classical economics, including intrinsic value theory, Smith's non-axiomatic rationality, equilibrium analyses and supposed direct correlations which completely ignore human action and motivation, and even the fracking Classical Triad - and all of it with a Malthusian spin. He attempts to apply entropy to biological and social organization, explaining away evolution as a special case of "negative entropy" and completely ignoring the phenomenon of emergent social order.

[newb2yutube]

 *FACEPALM*

You have exposed yourself as a free market Hayek troll. Please don't comment here again unless it is seriously constructive in the discussion. Fact are facts and ignoring them to support your own fringe ideas is stupid. Let me guess, you think Climate Change isn't real? Or that the looming energy crisis isn't real either? It takes a certain type of moron to ignore facts to support abstract ideas as yours.

[newb2yutube]

Read the study course, it's free. Then I will take you a little more seriously.

[kermitcintronsucks]

you can take all of that economic rhetoric and do what with it exactly? It's all useless and obsolete. You have just wasted your time. Reading economics books is a waste of time and energy. It was written by a bunch of guys who lived hundreds of years ago. None of it applies today. much like there were massive changes in physics there will be paradigm shifts in economics.

[PanzerDivisionBOM]

03:00, 05:30

So all goods are available in superabundance, meaning that no active choice between two different states of satisfaction is possible, except little pieces of paper with numbers on them?

At 07:30, he contradicts those statements with a theory of value, and again at 08:35 by propodinh a method of rationing.

He is just another economically confused socialist. He proposes a system of rationing, while at the same time denouncing rationing as wasteful and unnecessary. Waste of time.

[newb2yutube]

Instead of putting false critiques and dilemmas out your ass, try understanding TNAT. He was never contradicting in these videos. It seems you are just another price system flunky. i.e. your brainwashed by price system mechanics and don't understand it. Look up the definition as a start.

If you are interesting in learning something creative and historical in its history, then read the Study Course and come back with real critiques. Dismissing something purely on one video isn't constructive.

[newb2yutube]

"He is just another economically confused socialist."

Again, making statements like this, while not understanding anything you're arguing against, isn't really smart. The ideas revolve around biophysical economics and thermodynamic principles. Google " ECONOMY AND THERMODYNAMICS " and " M. King Hubbert on the Nature of Growth 1972 " to understand the economics behind it.

[kermitcintronsucks]

and you're a confused capitalist. You see how that gets us nowhere? When somebody wants something they will just get it. You know what I mean? When you have a molecular assembler that can make anything you want what will be the point of money and all the rest of fincap as bucky fuller used to call it? There is a reason why all of the financial institutions are failing. They are obsolete. Think about 3d printers that will make money obsolete.

[PanzerDivisionBOM]

@kermitcintronsucks

Actually, I gave some examples of specific errors which he had made, including some of the most common fallacies in the field. I showed some of his statements to be logically incompatible with one another. I identified his Smithian Classical paradigm, which is universally considered to have been exploded by the marginal revolution. I do think I got as far as can be gone, under the circumstances.

All you did was call me a name and offer an interpretation of history.

[kermitcintronsucks]

Adam smith never discovered anything. Economics isn't a science. Most of the works are philosophy and actually don't apply today. I have read all the books you have read.

[newb2yutube]

@kermitcintronsucks It's a good idea to explain why it doesn't apply today. We are dealing with ignorant people. So it's best to be specific and not assume they know anything about biophysical economics or thermodynamics.

Modern economics doesn't apply today because we are in a high energy civilization. Meaning we convert energy at a high rate for our goods and services because of technology. Technology destroys the price system and the coresponding economic philosophies within it.

[Hinrichten]

@PanzerDivisionBOM don't bother arguing with them.

They argue, then they cite people from their movement thinking it's good science to trust biased sources.

Then when someone trips up, they say "oh he's not a technocrat, doesn't represent us" or words to that effect.

[newb2yutube]

@Hinrichten Yeah, don't bother arguing agianst facts and logic? That's really smart. Then start to strawman and bullshit your way in the argument? Yeah, that's really constructive in debates and makes you "win" arguments in only to a moron.

Technocracy isn't really that hard to understand, except for some reason, people brainwashed with price system thinking can't comprehend such an idea or even the very simple factual critiques of the price system. It's pretty pathetic.

[newb2yutube]

This video serves as an expansion of the TNAT videos presented by Arvid Peterson and the Study Course. Go watch that video first and read the Study Course if you want to look into and understand another alternative idea. You're friend has no idea what he is talking about and is best if you don't drag yourself down to his level.

[ChaosDynamics]

Hmmmm, I think I'll describe myself now as a "Social Technocratic Democrat".

[newb2yutube]

@ChaosDynamics Hello, the problem with that identification is that Technocracy is non political and is an entirely new social system. The Technate design and energy accounting are completely different than the current price system, and the only way to install this would be after a collapse of the Price system(not too far away) OR "total conscription" which was proposed in the 30's when Technocracy was popular. Trying to reform the current system into this would be a failure.

[newb2yutube]

@ChaosDynamics If you want to grasp a handle on this proposal, it is mandatory to read 'the technocracy study course'. For some reason people confuse the ideas and/or dismiss it purely from ignorance of it's proposal. It is only a 300 page document which should take a few days to a week to read. Thank you for your interest. If you have questions message me.

[ChaosDynamics]

@newb2yutube

Awww, I kinda liked the idea of scientists and engineering running the country, at least that would instill a certain amount of expertise in political circles. Will read that paper though to find out more, I'm kinda new with the concept of technocracy.

[newb2yutube]

These ideas have actually influenced politics. Some have tried and suggested many reforms in energy and have done many things in politics because of technocracy. So it has influenced it in that way. FDR appointed 17 technocrat in various programs like the department of agriculture, department of transportation etc. It has also influenced social security, and even the early FEMA system was developed by technocrats as a way out of a price system collapse.

[newb2yutube]

So it has instilled expertise in political circles. M. King Hubbert, an avid technocrat until his death has dedicated his life to educating the political arena on Peak Oil, and other energy related, resource problems.

[newb2yutube]

@ChaosDynamics BUT, technocrats would NOT participate in politics, i.e. create political parties or endorse political candidates to influence political reforms or what have you. Cause in the end, they are useless and would not create a functional governance as proposed in the Technate design for North america( which is contained in the last two paragraphs of the study course.)

[newb2yutube]

@newb2yutube * in the last two CHAPTERS of the study course.

[Operation2]

Two words: Humanoid robots

The only way for a fully technocratic society to function is if there were mass use of humanoid robots to maintain the system of tasks that are required for a society to function...indeed the world citizen would be much more intelligent, much more peaceful...

[newb2yutube]

You're going a bit too far into the future with this. Also, we have many robots and technological functions creating products with minimal energy and virtually no human 'work' needed. A Technate can function tomorrow if enough people know about it. The only thing that needs attention is the accounting of energy consumed among the populace in order to fully understand the sustainability and work needed to function and protect the technate in the most efficient ways, using a system of science.

[ngonea]

@newb2yutube - we already have the accounting, it is just hidden, and being used by the Elite for the Elite, at our expense, check

"Structure of the Birth Certificate"

DTC 55 Water Street NY

Jean Keating Material (Bonds)

[Gmantis14]

@Operation2 you say it as if it were something bad. Humans adapt to their society, technically speaking we are machines that act as we are brought up to act. Indeed people would be much peaceful in a technate because they would be raise in a much more peaceful society.

[Xenodamus]

@Operation2 Insect like robots would be more efficient for assembly and construction.

[newb2yutube]

@Xenodamus That really wasn't funny even though I hope you were joking. If you have nothing of value to say then don't post anything. If you are serious, then show me something of value that proves your point.

[Xenodamus]

@newb2yutube I wasn't being funny. Most robots you will see in a future human society will most likely be insect like (both in intelligence and appearance) and would replace the working class entirely. The is reason for the insect form is that it's simpler, yet it's tried, tested and true in nature. So why reinvent to wheel when itis in front of us? Think of a colony of robotic ants completing a structure in a matter of days for what it would take construction laborers to finish in a year.

[newb2yutube]

@Xenodamus I think that would be very inefficient, and would be a little strange and unpractical, so far as I see it, even 50 years in the future. A little soon to be playing the crystal ball.

Technocracy isn't about futuristic jumbo. It's about what is the most practical today. As I said before, A technocracy can function tomorrow if it has to. The technology today is just as practical to use with Technocracy as with future technology.

[Xenodamus]

@newb2yutube

Why would it not be efficient? Nature tends to refine life systems in an efficient manner, so mimicking it is the logical course..

I know it's not related to technocracy as social engineering, but I think technocracy, its price system with energy credits would strongly depend on a strong technological base, because the economy would be planned and centralized in certain aspects. For that you need strong backbone to do energy auditing for an entire civilization.

[newb2yutube]

I don't think you fully understand what TNAT is. There is no price system and Energy "credits"? Technocracy has nothing to do with social engineering either. I suggest you visit the sites I supply on my channel for correct information.

The energy audit or survey can be done easily so long as the group doing the survey get the necessary information and equipment to do so. So it can be done, even today.

All the robot talk is a little foolish so I'll leave that alone.

[Xenodamus]

@newb2yutube Are you kidding me? Creating a technate composed of America from the Equator all the way up to the North Pole that requires the abolition of several nation-states and a new economic system is nothing short of megascale social engineering. BTW the TNAT does have a price system in form of energy credits (or certificates as the official nomenclature) based on the sustainably of energy rates.

[Xenodamus]

@newb2yutube Also, Harold Fezer stated that a technocracy depends on the abolition of `values' in material goods. For that you need an abundance of goods. And this is where robots come into the picture: such a state of abundance can only happen when you have machines that are capable to be programmed to make any manufactured good out of allocated raw materials and are self-replicable. It's not about the technology itself, but about the economical influence of the technology.

[newb2yutube]

@Xenodamus The definition of social engineering is numerous. Laws are part of it, education can be as well. Pretty much anything is social engineering. So, I don't use that term. Once the Price system goes, it no longer functions or matters. "values" in money don't matter, and from this we could create a Technate. This is what Harold meant, I assume.

[newb2yutube]

@Xenodamus Also, you are still mistaken to think energy accounting is a price system with energy credits. Energy accounting is a non market economic system. Energy is calculated and consumed. The Energy Certificates or Cards are only an account of what can be physically consumed (i.e. energy calculated in whatever UNIT) That is it, so explain to me why you thinks it's still a price system with "energy credits".

[newb2yutube]

It's funny how we are facing the same problems now that was faced during this discussion in the video. People need to understand that the only reason why we were able to get through that time was through our growing debt and smart dealings(politically) to gain more energy. However, this time around is different. We are reaching peak oil and economic instability which is aiding in the destruction of our price system. What is next? Chaos, or a technocracy Technate?

[TBonePickensetc]

Nice to see this. Google: Technocracy Study Course and 'Energy accounting' for more information. The North American technate design is a result of the study made by the Technical Alliance. M. King Hubbert geo scientist is the primary author of the T.S.C. - His work also forms the basis of the Hubbert curve which is a way to measure resources. The Hubbert curve is commonly used now to measure such things as 'peak water' or any other resource that is under threat.