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From: TheYoungTurks
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  • But the *fap* free market *fap* will naturally filter *fap* out the businesses *fap* that cheat and *fap* lie! Regulations *fap* only screw up *fap* the free *fap* market! Free *fap* markets are the only *fap* thing that can *fap* get us out of *fap* this mess!!!!!!!

  • C'mon. They should be jail. They committed theft.

  • This is a Koch induced nightmare.

  • That's it. I hereby move to make a motion that from now on, "Koch" will be pronounced "cock." I think David "Koch" is a fitting name, don't u? Lol

  • Suck my Koch!

  • Occupy Koch Industries.

  • Seize everything they own and give it to the people before exicuting them for treason.

  • kOCH BROTHERS RULE!!!

  • Totally forgot about the corporate "9 strikes and you're out" rule

  • Will Faux News cover this story? It's major news that the Tea Party primary funders are criminals.

  • I don't get how the entire Koch syndicate isn't seized yet and their management imprisoned for life or even at the gallows.

    It's the pinnacle of dirty business in the west, banana republic capitalism.

    .

    I mean, when a company gets over 400 million US dollars in fines, penalties etc in various cases between 1999 and 2003 (A four year period) authorities should respond and treat it like a criminal organization.

  • @underbjorn Ahaha... Authorities actually doing there jobs, you must be kidding. Only in Dreams.

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  • If Palin is President right now, this would not have happened for Palin will use her SUPREME POWERS to straighten out and righten her minions out with her GOD JUICES being FUCKED into their PUSSIES!

  • @ecwaufisxtreme. Sarah Palin rips off taxpayers more than the Koch brothers do.

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  • Companies that have commited so many crimes, have been so arrogant, ignorant and defied the law and try with any means possible to avoid responsibility should not exist.

    They should not be allowed to exist.

    .

    They equal mafia families, criminal syndicates like Murdoch's, they outweight the elected government.

    They are a threat to everybody and will use any means to reach their goal, violence and corruption is easy at hand.

  • If corporations are people, Koch industries should be in jail.

  • WE ARE THE 99

  • Take the Koch brothers out into the street and put them down like rabid dogs.

  • Time is overdue for a boycott on all things "KOCH" like... just for starters... Angel Soft, Brawny, Coronet, Dixie, Mardi Gras, MD Bathroom Tissue, Quilted Northern, Soft ‘n Gentle, Sparkle,Vanity Fair, Zee & Georgia-Pacific this list makes these brothers look like they are full of ....

  • These are truly hardcore criminals.

    In fact it is quite likely they are the two most evil human beings currently alive.

  • When a company intentionally and systematically breaks the law, they shouldn't be punished with fines.

    The people at the top should go to jail like anyone else.

    This isn't something I should have to say.

  • When a company intentionally and systematically breaks the law, they shouldn't be punished with fines.

    The people at the top should go to jail like anyone else.

    This isn't something I should have to say.

  • Bill Koch = Batman like a motherfucker.

  • Waiting on the second dislike to indicate both Koch Brothers disliked this video. These 2 rich fucks are scumbags.

  • @romanmir01Again with praising somalia for being better than the western world?

    "They are MUCH more advanced than even your court system in the sense of handling liability." - Do you have any idea what you are talking about? You know they have been in a civil war since 1991? they there is constant fighting and warring?

  • this is bullshit.

  • @wateryskipper Agreed. When a company intentionally and systematically breaks the law, they shouldn't be punished with fines.

    The people at the top should go to jail like anyone else.

    This isn't something I should have to say.

  • How f*****g corrupt can these guys get?

  • We need a seperation of "corp and state"

  • Keep in mind, they most likely stole more than 25 million, but due to regulation (not free market courts), the damages was limited. This is normally due to a cap per incident. In a free market, there is no regulation, and thus if this was found out to be stolen, a judge would award the missing money to the government. Thanks to wonderful regulation though, they can't. It is the regulators fault now. God I hate regulation BS.

  • Put them in prison along with presidents of bank of America, Sachs, bp oil, and the rest of the ceo's at wall street.

  • anybody who pushes the so-called "free market" which has been PROVEN time and again not to be "free" at all, is nothing better than a corporate crack dealer & should be treated as such.

  • @WikeddTung I am for free markets, and it has been proven to work and is free, it is when government steps in to regulate it. Regulations regulate small business out, allowing for monopolys to form, as big biz is the only company to handle the cost. Take the TYT story on the at home church resently. 20 people showing up once a week, to be a church she would need to spend thousands on environmental reports, safety, etc. Free market would allow anyone to compete, not only those with money.

  • @bluefootedpig you're a moron.

  • @WikeddTung Good point.

  • @bluefootedpig So you don't think that de-facto monopolies emerge naturally?

  • @595o I think monopolies are much more difficult to aquire when you have an open market. When a new business must invest 30k+ just to start up, that is a huge risk to many people, even more so when you only have a 5% chance to still be in business 5 years later. As far as monpolies, I am against them, but realize that most develop due to government help and government contracts. How has a monopoly on weapons? halburton. Government supported? yes. 21B goes to halburton on no-bid contracts.

  • @bluefootedpig Would you consider patents a government-granted monopoly?

  • @595o I think with the rate of innovation, that patents are good, but last way too long. We now have a doubling of the worlds knowledge every 7 years i believe. In the 1920s, it was about every 20 years. So a long patent life made sense, it took awhile to gear up factories and get a product to market. Today, a product can hit market much faster. So yes, I am for patents but to a much more limited extent.

    cont...

  • @595o cont... what I would actually prefer is a government ran research. Like universities used to. Their goal is to improve, and innovate new products, which are then released to the open market free of charge. If someone designs a new product, say one that cures cancer, and it is done in a university lab, then it would be free for anyone to produce. Then we have a society that pushes research forward, with an economy that impliments the research.

  • @bluefootedpig Interesting view, slim government but still heavy involvement in education, that's the first time I heard this one. I believe most libertarians (AKA classic liberals) would disagree with this.

  • @595o You would think so, and most people would, but I would say my view is more in line with people like John Locke, which said that you can impliment programs as long as all pay equally and benefit equally. The other thing is that I am against profit on negatives of society. I don't think they will cure cancer when it is a multi billion dollar business. Or jails, if there is profit then the owners will want more people in jail to increase profits.

  • @595o You would think so, and most people would, but I would say my view is more in line with people like John Locke, which said that you can impliment programs as long as all pay equally and benefit equally. The other thing is that I am against profit on negatives of society. I don't think they will cure cancer when it is a multi billion dollar business. Or jails, if there is profit then the owners will want more people in jail to increase profits.

  • why are these pieces of shit still not in jail?

  • This is why corporations are not people. As a person you would be doing a million years in prison but if you are a corporation you just pay a peanut in fines.

  • hmmm i wonder wich is the evil twin....

  • It's Koch, not Coke.

  • These guys are fucking INCREDIBLE! I kind of have to tip my hat to them for buying so much clout from Washington for so little cash.....still should be in the pen forever tho...

  • If it wasn't for all those darn government regulations, powerful free market self-regulation would immediately emerge in it's place, instantly ending corruption. Or at least that's Ron Paul's fantasy.

    Back to reality, these bastards are bandits trying to buy our legislators to make it legal for them to loot. And the fact that some things are still illegal hasn't seemed to stop them from doing it anyway. They just resent that there's any consequence for getting caught cheating everyone.

  • If it wasn't for all those darn government regulations, powerful free market self-regulation would immediately emerge in it's place, instantly ending corruption. Or at least that's Ron Paul's fantasy.

    Back to reality, these bastards are bandits trying to buy our legislators to make it legal for them to loot. And the fact that some things are still illegal hasn't seemed to stop them from doing it anyway. They just resent that there's any consequence for getting caught cheating everyone.

  • rich fucks like koch brothers should be savagely murdered

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  • Reminds me of that horrible Star Wars Ep1 When the Trade federation asks, "Is this legal?', and the dark shadowy Emperor looks at them and says in a crackling voice "I WILL MAKE IT LEGAL!". And Dick Cheney did!

  • Hey guys... Yaknowwhat? You could show the Koch brothers eating live babies, and the right wingers will still yell "GEORGE SOROS" (without any real charges atteached, other than he's supposedly a Communist... Who worked to bring down other Communist regimes).

    Information in this day and age seems completely useless. Conservatism is a religion. And these people feel like they have to believe it or something bad will happen to them, like in Christianity. No amount of intelligence will change it.

  • anyone else waiting for these tools to die

  • These guys should be made subject to the Tony Soprano method: You fuck up once, you lose two teeth.

  • will someone arrest and execute these sick fucks already? How many more people do they need to kill? how many more lives ruined? how much more do they have to steal from us before we say enough? Koch wants to control us? I say we control them! Get your shit together America! Its time to lock up or kill these control freaks who have buried a knife in our country's back, and in YOUR back! Koch, America is coming for you, and for your money. Live in fear Koch, one day soon, we will get you.

  • @eangeles92

    I see what you did there -.-

  • Koch is one hell of a drug

  • Just so you know, none of this is on wikipedia. You would think that someone would have tried to put this information on their wiki page, so it seems plausible that they're paying people to 'update' the page constantly to ensure that people wanting to learn about them learn what THEY want them to learn.

  • I drink YOUR milkshake!

  • and these rich fucks still doesn´t get tired of telling something about them working their asses off and being smarter than others in the past and also present, in order to achieve their wealth.

    well, fuck that bullshit! it´s all about luck and/or heritage PLUS (in most of the cases) an incredible amount of ruthlessness, that makes somebody that filthy rich.

  • @motombocolombo I see. That's not entirely true for ALL rich people. Those who who worked hard and smart to get rich do not get featured in the news coz they don't break the law and are decent people.

  • @Legola87

    therefore i wrote "(in most f the cases)".

  • The Koch brothers need to be tried and executed for treason against America.

  • Now comes the disassemble.

  • Didn't Dan Aykroyd and Eddie Murphy make these guys penniless back in 1983?

  • Damn. And Troy Davis was executed?

  • Problem is, how do you stop people like this? They can buy anything or anyone they want. I hope one day someone or something will take them down. They are despicable pieces of shit !

  • they should pay back for the highest price of the oil, plus interest, plus a fine, plus jail time, plus never being allowed to do business again.

    eff them

  • Go back to sleep America...

  • I drink youuuur MILKSHAKE!

  • Euro-Americans stealing from Native Americans?

    WHAT A FUCKING SURPRISE!!!

  • Fines for the Koch Bros are considered merely fees to doing "business"

  • The Republican Base ought to start to consider, if getting associated with antisocial, reckless criminals over and over again is what will bring them into a brighter future. GOP stands for "Grand Old Party". If things go on like this, the Republican Party in American future times will rather be remembered as the party of self-indulgent scum.

  • @taxiuniversum err ...will you plz consider adding "insanely"?

    :D

  • Koch brothers stealing from american tax payers? Of course!

  • Another reason why there should be an imposed 100% tax on any income above "very wealthy" level. The eternal growth and interest system is bad enough, but at least we could stop the constant unjust flow of wealth to the top.

  • cenk, get fucking angry, not that it helps anything but it so fucking annoying that you speak of this like its a parking ticket they got away with

  • Time to put up a list of all politicians who have taken campaign contributions from these assholes. Governor Walker is the first I can think of. List these politicians as aiders and abettors to criminal activity.

  • "Koch" is german for "cook". I guess we should change that in "crook"

  • There shouldn't be any government owned assets, including land.

    All land must be private and all of the taxes should ONLY be collected at the point of sale - consumption taxes.

    All of a sudden royalties do not matter. In fact USA imports by 25Billion USD oil MORE into the country than it exports, which means much more oil comes from abroad, so no royalties are paid to USA for that.

    But there are many taxes. All land should be private, gov't must be funded from sale/excise/import taxes ONLY.

  • @romanmir01 Dumbass. If all land was private we'd have no public roads, no parks, no open public spaces. Stop supporting criminals you waste of space

  • @BOZ11 You are a dumb ass. There shouldn't be any 'public' roads or parks or public open spaces. You are a waste of space. The real criminals are protected by the government and the so called 'public' spaces are just spaces to dump waste, because there is no owner.

  • @romanmir01 If every road was private then every road could in theory be closed off by its owner arbitrarily, and then we can't travel. Public park land is for everyone to enjoy, and it breaks up urban concrete sprawl

  • @BOZ11 Only private property can be protected by the owner, there is no owner on public property, thus there always will be abuse of so called 'public' property. Why should there be anything that is public? Somebody has to take care of maintenance and upkeep, this requires money, with private ownership this is covered by whatever user fees, with so called 'public' ownership the money has to come from taxes, which grows gov't, which destroys economy.

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  • @NaveenChawlaUK "even private sector businesses ONLY EXIST BECAUSE OF GOVERNMENT," - PURE NONSENSE.

    It's the exact opposite - the gov't only exists (especially the size that it is), because private INDIVIDUALS worked and various businesses appeared and CREATED the economy.

    Gov't does not create economy, it takes out of the economy.

    Wealth and standard of living is created by individuals working - businesses, but that's the alien concept here obviously.

  • @romanmir01 You are wrong. Government creates the economy. People don't WORK if they can STEAL and EXTORT. Can't you understand that???

  • @TheNavigateur NO. People in fact DO WORK to live.

    Before the industrial revolution fueled by creation of capitalism people were working 95% of their time JUST FOR FOOD. Farmers worked their entire lives in the fields just for food. Any surplus? Sure, they had surplus. That was their savings they could reinvest or spend.

    Gov't doesn't create economy, that's such a strange thing to say, it's unbelievable somebody actually thinks that.

  • @romanmir01 Govt. creates an economy by its RULES.

    Without those rules (laws), you have marauding bands pillaging neighbourhoods and enslaving others for their own gain.

    Yes, government creates the economy.

  • @TheNavigateur Gov't doesn't create economy, economy creates gov't.

    Gov't can only exist because there is economy that it can confiscate from.

    As to various security issues - private citizens are capable of securing themselves, local security even local polices, if that's what's needed for that locality - it's their specific local problem. In any case WHAT does the federal gov't have to do with local police enforcement?

    Gov't doesn't create economy, it doesn't EXIST before economy

  • @romanmir01 No, the people at the top simply had slaves.

  • @TheNavigateur Slaves are not a good work force, it was understood eventually that a hired man is much less expensive and much more productive. Maintaining a slave work force is much more expensive than hiring free people. THAT is the real reason slavery went away, especially with advancement in technology due to the industrial revolution, that REQUIRED a more educated and specialized work force, so economy needed more educated people, and economy created them.

  • @TheNavigateur Same with all other problems. Children WORKED FOREVER, way before any capitalism, but industrial revolution made it POSSIBLE for children to STOP working, because it made people so much more productive, that a single parent could provide for the entire family.

    It wasn't the case with pre-industrial economies, where everybody had to work as early as they could because there was no capital and no way to acquire the tools to be more efficient.

    Efficiency is capital and tools.

  • @TheNavigateur People make MUCH MORE money NOT by stealing but by providing goods and services that others are willing to pay for.

    Is there stealing? Sure. It's always there. But the real money is in real goods and services.

  • @romanmir01 Your ideas would lead to a world of violence, theft, fraud, cartels, enslavement by heavily armed criminals for their own gain. Good luck.

  • @NaveenChawlaUK As to Mexico and USA - USA is the largest exporter of counterfeit money in the world, importing goods produced everywhere, including Mexico.

    USA has a trade imbalance with everybody, Mexico and Canada, not just China. That's right - trade imbalance with Mexico, and what does USA export to Mexico?

    Fake money, guns and crime via the drug war legislation.

  • @romanmir01 But which is a better place to live? USA or Mexico? Or Sudan (6.3% tax), Yemen (7.1% tax)? These would all be better places to live than the USA if your theories were true.

  • @TheNavigateur USA BEFORE income tax was a BETTER economy than it is now.

    0% income tax - how about THAT? 0% income tax. 0% payroll tax. 0% corporate tax. Tiny gov't, growing economy, increasing population due to FREEDOMS that USA provided.

    People didn't come to USA for MORE gov't, they had that home.

    People came to USA for LESS gov't regulations and MORE Freedoms.

    As to all those other places - don't you worry. USA will get there, but Mexico imports more into USA than it gets from it.

  • @romanmir01 So you want the USA to be worse than Sudan (6.1% tax) and Yemen (7% tax)?

    TINY GOVERNMENT DOES NOT LEAD TO A GROWING ECONOMY. IT LEADS TO NO ECONOMY.

    When will you get that? A world of violence, theft, fraud, cartels, enslavement by heavily armed criminals for their own gain, is not an economy. And you think it is!?

  • @TheNavigateur I want USA to be BETTER, the way it was when it had 0% income tax.

    0% income tax.

    0% payroll tax.

    0% corporate tax.

    No Wars, no wars on drugs, no FDA, FHA, EPA, CIA, FBI, no SS, no Medicare, no Welfare, no EI, no fiat money. No money printing. No interest setting.

    That's right - USA had a strong and growing economy that was destroyed by gov't.

  • @romanmir01 The USA always had a gov't. There was never a USA without a gov't.

  • @TheNavigateur Yeah, whatever. Gov't is not gov't, just like a tax is not a tax. Gov't is always there, but it's not always destroying business. Gov't is your local sheriff, but he is not involved in business destruction or business rules.

  • @romanmir01 If you were ideologically constistent, you wouldn't be for a sales tax either. This proves you know something's wrong with your philosophy.

  • @TheNavigateur

    All of my positions are completely consistent.

    As I say: gov't is a force that is needed just to OCCUPY the power vacuum that exists without it. I am not an anarchist, that stuff is only good temporarily (I like Machno's ideas, but he couldn't build a society around himself).

    Gov't is an EXPENSE. Gov't is CONSUMPTION. Thus it MUST be paid for by PERCENTAGE of CONSUMPTION.

    So gov't spending must be proportionate to total spending, thus sales taxes, which is consistent

  • @romanmir01 Government is not expense. It adds to standard of living, and is thus a net gain.

  • @TheNavigateur Government IS an expense. What are you talking about? Gov't doesn't PRODUCE anything! It can only take what others produce.

    USSR - does this mean anything to you? What's your age? I was born there long time ago.

    USSR, Soviet China, Soviet Cuba, Soviet Somalia, etc.etc. What other example do you need of total gov't control?

    So WTF? Those systems had total gov't control and NO economies at all. They produce something, but nobody wanted it. They sold raw materials to buy food.

  • @romanmir01 USSR? You mean the world power who had the first man in space and produced collossal weaponry? The USSR made collossal mistakes and was fundementally dictatorship, not a democracy, but it was no one's poodle.

    And the USA's top income tax rate then was 90%? So who are you comparing it to?

    Constitutionally democratic governments make better decisions than dictatorship/fascist governments. Good governments DO produce. They produce more justice and thus a better business environment.

  • @TheNavigateur Yes. First man in space. Yes. Colossal weaponry. Do you know the PRICE for that?

    30 MILLION DEAD just between 1929 and 1933. THE ENTIRE COUNTRY DESTROYED.

    Do you know that people had to queue up to buy fucking toilet paper? There was no economy worth of speaking. LADA?

    You WANT TO LIVE IN USSR? GO RIGHT AHEAD. You are going to have it.

  • @TheNavigateur USA's top tax rate was actually 94%.

    0 people paid it.

    Nobody would ever work for 9.4 cents on a dollar. It's called - HUMAN BEHAVIOR MODIFICATION.

    People didn't pay those stupid rates, the effective rates in USA never went over 22%. That's because people always find way not to pay.

    WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS GOOD?

    WHY IS IT GOOD?

    YOU THINK IT IS GOOD? JUST? FAIR?

    To force somebody to work for 9.4 CENTS on a dollar?

    You BELONG in USSR - I WISH IT UPON YOU

  • @romanmir01 If there's money in it, people work. And nobody is "forced" to work "for 9.4 cents on a dollar". But if there's more money to be acquired from doing so, people will. So they will.

    Constitutionally democratic governments make better decisions than dictatorships (USSR).

    And again, if you really believed government was purely an expense, you'd be against sales tax. Thus you're ideologically inconsistent. Thus you know there's something wrong with your philosophy.

  • @TheNavigateur People modified their behavior to ensure they never paid any of those ridiculous taxes. They introduced a tax like that, all of a sudden there were no millionaires left, nobody was making large amounts of money any longer. Of-course they were, but they never paid it to themselves, they used company's expenses and wrote off all of the expenses, which at the time, by the way, was not limited. They could write off everything. There was no federal computerized control

  • @romanmir01 Justice is a product.

  • @romanmir01 Justice is a product.

  • @romanmir01 Gov't doesn't PRODUCE anything? The National Air Traffic Controllers Association makes 1.5 billion in revenue in 6 weeks. It is one of many things that produce money for the government

  • @robinvan1983 FDA? That's a NET LOSS for the economy, not a NET GAIN.

    Why does anybody believe that extracting TAXES is a net gain for economy? That's pathetic and stupid.

    Private industry can easily do air-traffic control and that's where it belongs. Private industry does all sorts of controls all the time.

    Private industry CREATED the damn airplane.

  • @romanmir01 Do you ever get tired of reading your foolish notions? Geez. Shut the fuck up, loser.

  • @aaronpolitical I love the fact that you are reading my comments and replying to me with this nonsense, and you are calling me a loser? Yeah, go fuck yourself.

  • @romanmir01 did you actually read my comment? You stated the Government doesn't produce anything. It does. The National Air Traffic Controllers Association.

    so shut your mouth cause you are really bad in trolling

  • @robinvan1983 You should shut your mouth and show me how any of this has anything to do with PRODUCTION?

    This is not production, this is money extraction, wealth destruction. Just because gov't hires a bunch of goons to steal money from airlines and it puts its goons to run the air-traffic control doesn't mean it's production.

    It's done with money that is stolen, it's certainly done in a more expensive way than airline/airport companies themselves would do and it doesn't produce anything.

  • @romanmir01 It creates REVENUE! you know that is a production. Otherwise Wall street doesn't produce anything either. Bullshit somewhere else cause can't you provide me with evidence that private air-traffic control systems work just as efficient?

  • @robinvan1983 Revenue is NOT production.

    As to 'Wall Street' - name a company. Today the stock market is a big casino, set up to gamble due to all of the 'free' money that is coming out of the Federal reserve, which destroys production, doesn't create it.

    Production is what REDUCES the TRADE DEFICIT.

    53 Billion USD/month trade deficit - if whatever you do does NOT reduce it, it's not production.

  • @romanmir01 HAHAHAHA do you actually thing that everyone follows your definitions from your fantasy world?

    53 Billion already includes the revenue of 1.5 billion. It already reduced the deficit. without it, it would have been 54,5 billion.

    Nice to know you have shit for brains. i am done

  • @robinvan1983 Dumb ass. 53Billion trade deficit is the difference how much is EXPORTED to OTHER COUNTRIES vs how much is IMPORTED.

    You are an idiot. They should export your organs to other countries, that's the only way you'll ever decrease the trade deficit.

  • @romanmir01 WTF are you talking about. Trade deficit doesn't even effect government spending. I am talking about revenue and government deficit. It produces money.

    You said the government doesn't produce anything, But it does. I gave you an example. It is called revenue. and with the The National Air Traffic Controllers Association makes 1.5 billion in revenue.

    It is the same kind of produce what an investor does or a bank

  • @robinvan1983 I am talking about TRADE DEFICIT, you idiot.

    The only production capacity that means anything is production capacity that reduces the trade deficit.

    Gov't doesn't produce anything Air traffic controlling is not a product, it's a service that is obviously not efficient, as it's done by gov't. It shouldn't BE done by gov't. Nothing should be done by gov't, but Air traffic control is not a product that reduces trade deficit.

    I am tired of you.

  • @romanmir01 You predicted Somalia would take off economically now that government is totally out of the way. How is that working out for you?

  • @TheNavigateur Somalia IS taking off. PARTS of Somalia are better than OTHER parts of Somalia - this is COMPETITION.

    Somalia has more advanced banking system than you do at this point. They have payment systems that are based on mobile phones using SMS to transfer payments, you don't have that. Somalia is an after-civil war but a pre-industrial society, so it is in its own niche.

  • @romanmir01 Trolololol

    

  • @romanmir01, Somalia, a beacon of light in a dark world. 

  • @romanmir01 Yes, the parts of Somalia that are better than OTHER parts of Somalia are the parts where there is government. And the parts without government are the worst parts.

  • @TheNavigateur I am not an anarchist, and Somalia is not a libertarian state, so all of this is an exercise in straw man type futility.

  • @romanmir01 So you no longer believe government is always an expense in every single instance? You finally agree that justice is a product?

  • @TheNavigateur Justice is a what?

    a product? That's ridiculous. Besides which, I disagree on definition of what justice is.

    I only agree that criminal and contract laws will have to be upheld. I can as well have this done by private security and private courts, but most people will not agree to that.

    Justice is not a product, it's an outcome and it's in the eye of the beholder.

  • @romanmir01 It's interesting that you would voluntarily uphold criminal and contract laws. The Koch brothers wouldn't, as evidence by their proven actions.

    Can't you see this?

    So, justice IS a product. And if you didn't believe this, then why do you support any sales tax and any government at all? This shows you know something's wrong with your philosophy. Can government ever bring any VALUE, or not? I say yes, in the form of more justice. You say what?

  • @TheNavigateur They wouldn't have a choice. Of-course in their case, they already made their money from gov't related power and privileges, they can afford to have their own army. I am SURE they have necessary arrangements done (retainer) with at least 2 different firms that would provide them with private mercenary security forces.

    In free market people still have to deal with each other, so criminal and contract law are paramount, otherwise it's just people with bigger guns against each other

  • @romanmir01 You say "In free market people still have to deal with each other, so criminal and contract law are paramount, otherwise it's just people with bigger guns against each other".

    No shit sherlock. Welcome to reality. You think any court system that the Koch brothers are funding would argue against THEM and their actions regarding pipeline safety and kids burning to death near their pipelines? There's NO "business" or justice without a truly constitutionally democratic government.

  • @TheNavigateur Justice is not a PRODUCT. It doesn't come pre-packaged in a box. It's not produced at a factory.

    It's DECIDED. Now, justice system is a SERVICE. As a service, it takes money to run and it is a COST UNLESS you have the system that is purely private without gov't involvement. This can work with different people paying for insurance that can be used to go to one of the few competing courts.

  • @romanmir01 It doesn't have to be in a box to be a product. Justice is a desired outcome, thus it is a product.

    If you really believed government provides NO value, you wouldn't even believe in sales taxes. The fact that you do proves that you know there's something wrong with your philosophy.

  • @romanmir01 Private industry does NOT mean "without government". The government rules against stealing, fraud, cartels etc. FORCE companies to compete and produce. Why can you not grasp this simple, elementary, fundamental concept? (Besides educating some if not most of the engineers).

    Besides, justice is a product in itself.

    Thirdly... weren't you the one that predicted that Somalia would take off economically now that government is totally out of the way? How's that working out for you?

  • @TheNavigateur Nobody FORCES anybody to compete.

    In FACT - government DESTROYS competition. You can't grasp THAT simple fact at all.

    Gov't tries to bail out, stimulate and prevent crashes of existing companies - from banks to airlines to car companies, because it can't allow REAL competition.

    Wake up.

  • @romanmir01 What you don't understand is that companies don't LIKE competing. It costs money, especially in the long term as RACE CONDITIONS unfold - i.e. price and quality war. Competition is sporadic at best in a true free market - the real profitable position in the long term is cartels with price fixing, WHICH IS WHY THE KOCH BROTHERS WANTED TO DO PRICE FIXING IN THE FIRST PLACE.

    So yes, government FORCES the competition, and always has. "Free market competition" is a humourous oxymoron.

  • @romanmir01 What you don't understand is that companies don't LIKE competing. It costs money, especially in the long term as RACE CONDITIONS unfold - i.e. price and quality war. Competition is sporadic at best in a true free market - the real profitable position in the long term is cartels with price fixing, WHICH IS WHY THE KOCH BROTHERS WANTED TO DO PRICE FIXING IN THE FIRST PLACE.

    So yes, government FORCES the competition, and always has. "Free market competition" is a humourous oxymoron.

  • @TheNavigateur As to Somalia - competition within the country is working, they actually have competing private court systems, which actually work in conjunction with private insurance companies. They are MUCH more advanced than even your court system in the sense of handling liability.

  • @romanmir01 Interesting, considering the age in which the US economy had the most growth was the same as the one in which taxation on the rich and regulations where at an all time high, in fact the highest income bracket had 91% income tax, and you know what that did? It motivated the ultra rich to reinvest their money into the economy instead of hoarding it. If you want to live in your Libertarian utopia, go to Somalia, it's the only one in the world.

  • @dave19941000 The fastest growth in US history was PRE 1913. 19 century, industrial revolution, especially after the Civil War - that was the fastest growth and that was the time of freest enterprise.

    As to 91% tax - NOBODY PAID THEM. Who is the IDIOT who would NOT modify his behavior to pay a ridiculous 9 cents on the dollar they make? What do you think, people are fucking idiots?

    Everything was written off company's expenses and at the time gov't didn't have total control of your money flow

  • @romanmir01 In societies which are large enough to constitute mostly of strangers in regards to individual interactions a gov't is necessary in order to play a role of conflict resolution. This is simple sociology. The same can be extrapolated to company on company conflict and company on individual conflict. This is regulation, what is permissible and what is harm and a way to address greivance. Regulation, to a degree, is NECESSARY or else no one is accountable for harm. Taxes are needed.

  • @savageecho Criminal and contract laws - sure. Everything else - destruction of market and economy.