A Legal Analysis of California's Proposition 8 and the LDS Church

[bndkllr2]

RadarGuidedVermin,

Large majorities were against interracial marriages when the supreme court struck down prohibitions on them. So should we have just let the people vote then? I know, you don't think gay people should be treated the same as African Americans, etc. But YOUR logic says the suprme court should have let the PEOPLE decide. While I disagree with you on civil rights, morality, religion, etc, at least we both like The Great Outdoors movie!

[JOEPITT9]

I enjoyed listening to Kami Wenger's thoughts and legal analysis on Proposition 8 and the LDS church's involvement. His analysis was well-researched, fair, and, I believe, thoughtful. I am surprised that this video invoked so many thoughtless comments. Some comments were reduced to simple name-calling. I understand that gay marriage can evoke many emotions but I would hope for a more civil discourse.

[Californyay]

Keep in mind that Mormon people donated money, not the Church.

[whatevalife6]

Don't blame the mormons just so you'd be politically correct. 70% of African Americans voted for Prop 8 and not even Obama supports redefining marriage as anything but a union between a man and woman.

[rodgierad]

Actually, the Mormons donated $25 million to the Yes on 8 campaign, and WHITE republicans made up the majority of the yes voters, since they made up almost 1/3 of the state's voters.

Quit trying to pit the gay community against the black community...it's lame.

[whatevalife6]

70% of blacks and 58% of latinos did. Quit going after rich white churches so you can cast No on 8 as a civil rights campaign. It has nothing to do with civil rights because gays already have the same rights.

On the other hand, a slightly higher percentage of whites voted against it than for.

[rodgierad]

Why blame African Americans for the passage of prop 8? 6% of the population is black-how can anyone blame them for affecting the outcome so significantly? Latinos comprise a larger percentage of voters, but the percentage of yes votes is lower.

Funny>Prop 8 SUPPORTERS keep bringing this up.

It's about money, intimidation and church/state issues.

Gay men and women are not allowed to marry the one consenting adult of their choice, which as is considered a right as per Loving vs Virginia.

[whatevalife6]

I'm not blaming them, I'm applauding them for it. It's so nice to see that they understand the difference between marriage and civil rights.

[rodgierad]

I'm sure "they" appreciate your patronizing support.

Maybe the great thing to come of this is that the Mormon church will finally begin to treat Blacks as somewhat equal...as a reward. Go figure.

[whatevalife6]

And when did the Mormon church ever hate on blacks? There are black, Asian, and mexican, Mormons and I know because I visited Temple Square and they had guides speaking all the different languages in the world and of all different races. Sorry if there was something I should know about because I'm not Mormon. They hated on other races? I didn't think so.

[rodgierad]

Funny that every post I've made regarding Mormon racism is stricken from this board.

[mjolnir18889]

Funnt that you complain about nonexistient mormon racisim while you are here being bigoted towards mormons. Can you say hypocrite?

[rodgierad]

Please...so you deny the LONG history of racism in the LSD Church? The only reason African Americans were ever truly accepted by Mormons is because of political pressure.

Must I copy and paste the racist quotes directly from the Mormon founders in this thread? Reality check.

[mjolnir18889]

Do you deny the history of racism in your church? Very few churches allowed blacks to even enter the church mormons did. Even fewer allowed blacks to hold authority or priesthood Smith ordained blacks to the priesthood look up Elijah Abel a member of the 70. Smith was an abolishinist i do believe thats the opposite of racist.

as for the quotes about not marrying a black person you are aware that it was actually against the law at the time right?

Come back when you know what your talking about

[rodgierad]

"...If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory."

Look familiar?

[rodgierad]

"...Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty...Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned..."

Look familiar?

Another quote from the late 1960s

[rodgierad]

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race? If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so."

-Brigham Young

Very inclusive and progressive...when did the LDS Church feel the need to include Blacks? When it suited them politically.

Get real. Religion is religion...but the LSD church is about politics and money.

[mjolnir18889]

That does not change the fact that they were allowed to attend the church and partake of the sacrament more than other churches allowed. Also You are aware that this was against the law not set by the lds but by government right? Learn your history before you put your crap on here

[rodgierad]

The church denounced polygamy only when Mormon politicians were denied statehood for Utah until they did so.

The ban on black priests was only lifted when the IRS threatened to withdraw the church's tax exempt status, NCAA teams boycotted BYU, the NAACP/ACLU threatened to sue Mormon BoyScout troops, and boycotts were set against the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and Utah tourism.

If same-sex marriage brought power and money to the LDS church, they would be "revealed" as proper in a heartbeat.

[rodgierad]

Elijah Abel was denied his priesthood AFTER THE FACT because Blacks were catagorically denied priesthood until 1978. There is more to that story...or is that the story as you have been told? Interesting how the history of Mormonism changes over and over and no one in the church notices. I guess when something is "revealed" it must be true!

[mjolnir18889]

Umm no sorry he remaind a member of the ssventy until his death he never recieved the endowment but he retained his priesthood served at least 2 missions and again was a seventy until his death. You know nothing of the story except what you want to believe. Also Abel was not the only black that Smith gave the priesthood to. Your argument fails due to all of your lies. Try again

[TheStrong32]

@whatevalife6 "And when did the Mormon church ever hate on blacks?"

Oh, come on! You can NOT be that stupid!

[whatevalife6]

Oh yeah. And that makes sense since almost EVERYONE in California is a White Protestant Republican right? Re-check your demographics.

[RadarGuidedVermin]

The people voted -- you lost! Stop whining, and show some dignity. Do you hear McCain voters bellyaching that Obama won? This is in spite of the fact that Obama has a proven anti-civil-rights track record! The pro-8 people were better organized than you, just like the Obama campaign was better organized than McCain's. Deal with it.

[rodgierad]

Sounds like you're "belly aching" as this discussion had nothing to do with Obama and you have somehow turned it around to fit your whining.

You mention McCain twice and Obama twice. Unresolved issues?

[RadarGuidedVermin]

I mentioned the candidates only because your feeble mind is incapable of grasping any other example, dipstick, to prove a point. The election is over and you lost. Deal with it.

[rodgierad]

Oh yeah, thanks so much for attributing your frustration about an election result to myself...really appreciate that point. Took all of your intellectual power to come up with that one, huh? Rest up.

[RadarGuidedVermin]

The important thing is that I was able to teach you something here today.

[rodgierad]

Yeah, the whole "give up your principles after all the ballots are counted" is a great life lesson.

Take your own advice. Pass it on.

[RadarGuidedVermin]

I just did, to you. It makes no sense to demonstrate and whine after the election. You should have done it before!

[rodgierad]

Sounds like it makes no sense to you because you have nothing to lose.

Other people lost their rights. This is a lot bigger than some stupid proposition on a ballot, but you apparently don't grasp that. It's about an election to you, so it sounds like that's where your interest ends. So be it. The discussion is about the video and the implications of ballot initiatives which alter the Constitution, whereby restricting the rights of individuals.

[RadarGuidedVermin]

All the more reason you should have campaigned before, rather than whining after.

[SpanishForkOutcast]

Yeah, let me vote on your marriage and see if you like the result.

[RadarGuidedVermin]

I'd love the result because only angry revengeful homosexual people, like yourself, would vote against tradition marriage.

[SpanishForkOutcast]

I wouldn't vote against traditional marriage--just your marriage. You shouldn't be allowed to reproduce.

[RadarGuidedVermin]

If you're concerned about other people's reproductive rights, gay marriage doesn't matter, nitwit.

[SpanishForkOutcast]

You're a sad, sad, person. I would not really vote for you not to be able to reproduce (though I would pity the child). And you complaining about my completely imaginary idea voting your marriage rights down shows that you shouldn't be calling others nitwit. You're a sad, mean bigot and you will reap what you sew.

[RadarGuidedVermin]

Sorry, you got it wrong again. I'm actually quite happy. You should be happy too; the people got a fair election in which they got to vote their desires rather than having their will substituted for that of the courts.

[SpanishForkOutcast]

Don't believe you--look at yourself all knotted up in anger. You're sad, angry and pitiful. And the notion that people's civil rights should be voted on should make every American quiver.

[RadarGuidedVermin]

You lost the election, not me. Remember?

[SpanishForkOutcast]

Your point?

[RadarGuidedVermin]

If you'd learn to read maybe you'd catch them as I write them.

[SpanishForkOutcast]

Whatever. You're a sad, sad man and I'm tired of you.

[RadarGuidedVermin]

I'd imagine it would get tiring being a loser.

[lotuvinaka]

Who's word is worth trusting? The philosophies of men, or the doctrine of Christ? Humm??? I think I will follow Christ's word. It is found in the Scriptures and through the living prophet of God today. The whole first part of Genesis is about Man and Women. God created this earth that Adam and Eve would multiply and replenish it. This commandment of God cannot be done in a homosexual relationship. Sorry. But God's word is true and everlasting. We all better get on his side before it's too late.

[rodgierad]

So, are you going to be the one who breaks the news to all infertle couples and couples who don't want to have kids that their marriages are annulled? What the hell is wrong with them? Haven't they read the Bible?

Although, by "the whole first part" of Genesis you mean three lines, right? I notice that nudity is the natural state of mankind. Do you walk around naked all day? Let's do it "oldschool". If not, you aren't following you Bible as you suggest others should.

[marlenehrr]

I agree with u. These times remind me when the people wouldnt beleive Jesus was the son of God. They had so much hate towards him to the point where they crucified him. They chose the world of men rather than the word of God. The wicked are always going to do watever it takes to get what they want.

[talrin82]

Seperate but equal is not how this country works sorry

[sela45]

This video is stupid... more people acting funny again lol... Prop 8 passed! WOOO HOOO!!! So go ahead and keep rallying and try to take it back to the courts, but fact is... THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN! YES ON PROP 8!!! :)

[rodgierad]

The way the presentation finishes tells it all. This is all an all-out push to repeal domestic partnerships and adoption rights to gay men and lesbians, no doubt. Those who fell for the "yes on 8" crap, you have no idea what you voted for. Way to go, sneaky, right wing christian nuts.

[Aequitas7777]

FACT: it was the BLACK vote in California that was most responsible for passing Prop 8.(70% of black voters voted to define marriage as being one man-one woman only).I don't notice these protesters starting trouble in THOSE neighborhoods.I wonder why.....?

(...and they always seem to challenge every religion...except the Muslims!Again....I wonder why?)

[lionsgateblows]

neither the muslims nor the black churches gave over 20 million to the campaign

excuse me, im driving down to the mormon church on santa monica and taking a huge dump on that beautiful lawn

[Aequitas7777]

The point is that the vote was over and done a week ago so why are you giving the Mormons all the credit for this passing when in fact it was the majority of Californians who voted their conscience? This is exactly the democratic system our founding fathers created for this purpose.

If you want to take a dump outside I suggest you do it on the graves of the founding fathers because that is exactly what you are doing by not respecting the system that they themselves established!

[lionsgateblows]

the mormon church, which for years institutionalized child rape, bankrolled the yes on 8 campaign...a campaign of lies and deceit...our founding fathers would have joined me in taking that huge dump last night...and it was good...i had 5 bean tacos for lunch

[marlenehrr]

Where u part of the child rape? I bet! GO eat ur own dump of shit & drop dead.

[lionsgateblows]

the lds church allowed for adults to marry girls as young as 13...that is rape

mormons in their hearts love raping little girls

perverts one and all

[whatevalife6]

MAN!? Where are you getting your info from??

[lionsgateblows]

joseph smith himself...the king of all perverts

sucker started a religion so that he could con people out of their money and bang their daughters

and you all fell for it....SUCKERS!!!!!!!

and now, california is investigating the role of the mormon church in the yes on 8 campaign..and they will be found guilty...sued, and we will drain all their assets...and my new home will be that huge temple on wilshire

[whatevalife6]

Why would they be sued? They donated money to a campaign they supported. So what? That's not illegal or anything.

[lionsgateblows]

you need to educate yourself in regards cali state law regarding religious orgs and any election campaign...which includes propositions...if found liable, the state can sue the church and remove its tax exempt status...which should bankrupt it...i am moviing to the wilshire temple...bitches

[whatevalife6]

If religious organizations get money through donations, which their members WANT to be spent on the campaign, why should they lose their tax exemption??? The church didn't do anything illegal. They just gave some money to a campaign. Is that unlawful? I didn't know it was.

[rodgierad]

Take a dump for me ;)

[marlenehrr]

I doubt you would even donate money to the poor kids or anyone in need. Mormons sacrifice & fast for many days to donate money. All you guys do is think about is hating others & being selfish!

[lionsgateblows]

fuck that crazy cult...the only reason they stopped molesting little girls was cuz they wanted statehood...i dont trust anyone that doesnt drink coffee or wears holy underwear

except for steve young...cuz he is cool

[marlenehrr]

right! Molesting huh? i bet u know more about that than anyone. Go worship satan in some other page loser!

[rodgierad]

Donating, sacrificing and "fasting to donate" does not give ANYONE the right to interject religion into politics. Mormons don't have a monopoly on charity. They DO lay claim to "righteousness", and use tax free money to build massive "temples" and affect the outcome of elections. How Christian is that? The more money they amass and spend, the less impressive they actually are. Come clean...it's a corporation with lots of ulterior motives.

[marlenehrr]

Are u serious? Mormons dont put a gun in ur head & force u to do stuff. U would do them anyways. Everyone has the right to freedom of speech. Is ur guy's fault for not donating enough money. Plus i though mormons weren't the only ones who voted Yes on 8. Have u been watching the news?

[rodgierad]

WTF?

I don't have any idea what your point is here...

Are you trying to turn the gay community on the black community? Is this your diversion from the fact that religous organizations dumped millions into the yes on 8 campaign?

And what's the Muslim thing? Are you suggesting that there is a vast Muslim/Gay movement out to take over the country? Interesting.

[Aequitas7777]

The point is why is anyone demonstrating against anyone when the people have made a choice, that is the people of the state of California, have voted as is their democratic right, a civil right, to vote their conscience and made their choice to vote proposition 8 into law. So my point is that it was simply because the Coalition for Families put up a few TV commercials somehow this forced Californians to vote yes?

Do you also believe that video games make children violent or criminals?

[rodgierad]

People are demonstrating for civil rights taken from them by the passing of prop 8.

The issue with the religious organizations pouring money into the campaign is that our government is set up so that religious groups do not have unchecked influence over the democratic process, which it did have when it came to the campaign for Prop 8. Don't act so naive.

Children can't vote, so the influence of videogames on children doesn't relate in any way.

[Aequitas7777]

In case you missed it the Church itself didn't put any money into the campaign it was individual members as American citizens who did so of their own volition.

You apparently missed my comparison between the allegations that the Mormon church forced Californians to vote their conscience and the argument some have that video games force children to act out or endanger others because of playing said computer games.

Would you take away our freedom of speech and the 1st Amendment rights?

[rodgierad]

Actually, they did. They donated the maximum they could while maintaining their tax free status and convinced their parishioners to donate the rest. Don't act like you didn't know that.

The analogy about video games still makes no sense.

No one's first ammendment rights were challenged. The protest is with the church and it's policies.

[Aequitas7777]

Actually they only had the cost of some plane tickets and accommodations for representatives for a one-time visit which amounted to only a couple of thousand dollars which yes I did know and was not a donation.

The fact you don't get the video games analogy and it goes right over your head does not surprise me in the least.

So telling people they can not have their ability to speak out for traditional marriage is not challenging their 1st Amendment rights how exactly?

[rodgierad]

Sufferage rights and freedom of speech are two different things. Challenging the results of a majority vote is not a challenge to an indivudual's "right to free speech." You are oversimplifying, as is the example of the video game.

No one's ability to "speak out" was/is being challenged. In fact, protesters are exercising the right you are referring to.

So the Mormon church used TAX FREE money to support political campaigning? That is a problem.

[TheStrong32]

@Aequitas7777 "it was the BLACK vote ... that was most responsible ....I don't notice these protesters starting trouble in THOSE neighborhoods.I wonder why.....?"

Because the Mormons bankrolled Prop 8.

"(...and they always seem to challenge every religion...except the Muslims!Again....I wonder why?)"

Who, exactly, are "they"?

If you are referring to LGBT activists, they are constantly objecting to the murder ("execution") of gays in Muslim nations. So what are you talking about?

[apocalypse348]

as a celibate gay man,,i now realize why the world hates us! thank u LORD FOR SAVING MEFROM MYSELF!

[apocalypse348]

piss on america!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[skierdude02]

VOTE NO ON PROP 8

discrimination is NEVER FAIR OR RIGHT.

[AequitasVeritas7777]

Advocates of No on 8 are desperate they are trying to compare it to racial rights or women's sufferage they are miles apart and I suppose if I were willing to say anything to get what I wanted if I were not ethical I would use that argument.

It is about actually protecting rights of people and it is not those who already have their rights to practice their sexual lifestyle but now want to claim it is the same as one man and one woman, it never will be the same.

[Blazinhieghts]

gays have every right to marry. California's supream court sided with the U.S. CONSTITUTION. Religous extreamists have no right to infringe on any americans right just because an ancient story book make cirtian (and false) claims. If gay's pay the same taxes I do than they should have every right I have. as for gay rights being compared to "racial rights or women's sufferage" they are in fact fundementally the same and are not "miles apart".

[AequitasVeritas7777]

Who the hell ever said "religious extremists" infringed on anyone's right?

This was voted on by a VOICE OF THE PEOPLE OF CALIFORNIA including all personal beliefs, which is also the right of all Americans to believe however they want to. So don't point fingers just because you are unhappy with the results of the democratic process.

[Blazinhieghts]

people who supported a ban on gay marrige is a religous extramist, hate to tell you. religion is the only place where people (like you) are told that marrige between same sex couples is wrong. I can and will point fingers at all those (including you) who infringe upon anther americans rights. Gays pay taxes and lover thier country just as much as you do, so why can't they get married. Gays can still marry in my state and it will stay that way because we respect others rights unlike you people.

[Blazinhieghts]

as for "religious extremists" it was the mormons who spent almost ten million dollars on this campeign so don't tell me religous extreamists aren't infringing on anyones rights.

[LuisLomeliMD]

Homosexuality is a natural event according to renowned medical scientists. The anti-gay religious platform promotes hate and continued bigotry based on religious ignorance. What is religion doing to help all Americans attain universal health care and prosecute child molesters (often heterosexual fathers or step-fathers)? Religion is the word of man, not God. God is one to all religions. All humans have the right to a relationship, be it gay or straight. Gays cannot be denied their legal rights.

[cryan71]

My friend, Brian "DJ" Hyer Thompson, committed suicide because of the church's involvment in Prop 22. He was gay and mormon.

[zencat999]

being gay or not being gay is primarily a moral/religious issue.

in a country that purports to be under a secular rule of law this should not be an issue.

if you do not agree with gay marriage...dont get one!

your (or mine, if I had any) religious views are private and are not to be forced, by law or convention on any one outside your own skin.

to sum up.

keep your fucking religious views out of my constitution you fucking narrow minded bigots!

just shut the fuck up!

[jwwindsor]

I am sick of mormon trash trying to force their stupid beliefs onto me.

[cryan71]

Mormons, who are financing this proposition, once opposed interracial marriages.

"Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species...

(Joseph Smith, Jr. History of the Church)

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot."

(Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses)

[sadskippy]

This guy in the video keeps telling us what he thinks judges today will or will not do...

What about 30 years from now?

Do you honestly think the gay rights movement 30 years ago was any different than incest, bestial, pedophile, polygamus, and necrophilia rights are today? And what does that say about these rights in the future under this precedent?

Again, how do we know what judges will think in 30 years,,,,? Why leave it to them?

Will pedophilia be OK in 30 years from a judge?

[sadskippy]

Why is it judges and not socities elected officials passing gay rights?

Because society does not recognize gay rights.

Just like they don't recognize incest rights or pedophile, bestial, polygamus, and necrophilia rights.

However, if the process of gaining RIGHTS is established thru judges by the GAY example then get ready for these other rights in the future.

[sadskippy]

Why are judges determining the values of society anyway? Why is it not done thru our elected representatives?

Examples,

Womens suffrage was passed by an all white, old, stuffy, group of men. Not a judge.

The end of slavery was done by the same.

Civil rights act 1964,,, the act whereby judges (today) claim to protect gay rights.

Funny that,,, the folks in 1964 who actually passed the act did not intend for gay rights to be on it. I guess our judges today are just smarter than those.

[rodgierad]

Funny that Women's Sufferage Act ADDED rights for a group of citizens, The Thirteenth Amendment ADDED rights for a group of citizens. Prop 8 would deny rights to one group. The Civil Rights Act states: "no state shall deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." I don't get where it has to say GAY to include gay Americans. NO ON 8.

[sadskippy]

Did the act also add rights for incests and polygamists? Why not?

If the act added these rights and gays too, then why were there laws against sodomy still against gays when they passed it in 1964?

Why did they not have gay marriage back in 64?

You know why don't you....

Gays were not part of the ACT.

You want gay rights,,,, great. Pass another ACT of congress. Don't support judges making up law.

[rodgierad]

"Did the act also add rights for incests and polygamists? Why not?"

I'm not an expert on incest or polygamy, but since those activities are CRIMINAL IN 50 STATES,and homosexuality is illegal in NONE, is that good place to start?

"Why did they not have gay marriage back in 64?"

Why was it illegal for people of different races to marry until 1967? People were ignorant? A judge struck down the anti-miscegenation laws. A judge's job is to protect rights and interpret the laws. NO ON 8. NOT FAIR.

[sadskippy]

Homosexuality was illegal before a judge overturned SODOMY laws that congress had made.

Again,,, a judge and not congress.

incest and polygamy will follow suit thru a judge eventually,,, NICE PRECEDENT

Interacial marriage is tied to the 64 civil rights act. That is what judges tied thier decision to.

The act in 64 had NOTHING to do with sexual orientation.

A judge made up gay rights. Nothing more nothing less.

[rodgierad]

The Equal Protection Clause is how The Fourteenth Ammendment, the Civil Rights Act, miscegenation law rulings and gay rights are connected. We are talking about rights IN SPITE OF differences, not rights BASED ON differences. Your argument, it appears would support the reinstatement of the miscegenation laws, to avoid this "slippery slope" that the judges created, and has led to gay marriage. Discriminate much?

[sadskippy]

Pedophile marriage- just change the age of adult. Why can't a judge rule 12 is an adult and thus able to marry? (you do realize this will no longer be the definition of pedophilia because it will no longer include a child)

Bestial marriage- implied consent can be carried to the extreme and PETA will back ya on this one.

Necrophilia marriage- just sign the marriage waiver (necro) form before you die and then your partner can marry your corpse after, yeehaw.

[sadskippy]

He only discusses polygamus marriage as a potential OTHER marriage,,, what about incest, pedophile, bestial, and necrophilia marriage?

Realize, Judges and not society changed the law on gays regarding SODOMY, and could do the same for:

Incest- easier to allow than gays just change incest law.

Polygamus- why it's limited to 2 parties now that the male and female parts are interchangeable is beyond me? Why not 3 daddies?

[antlion71]

Excellent Video. It is good to take the points back down to the basics. Yes on 8

[crispymidget]

There will never be gay marriages in temples. That's not possible. It's not a public thing and it's like a private club. So sorry.. not gonna happen.

[osmiolos]

"reject the LDS moving-goal-post fallacy of "that's not doctrine"."

but don't you reject ANYTHING that makes the LDS people and church look respectable?

plus dictation methods were very lacking.

[osmiolos]

"Young clearly taught they would NEVER have the priesthood"

Young taught the ban would ONE day be lifted on the small group of African Americans it affected at the time.

But you don't become an EXmormon by learning Church History correctly.

[osmiolos]

while I realize this man is a Professor of Law. I find his analysis weak.

He admits that the basis for the case is to make the word marriage apply to homosexuals as well as heterosexuals as a matter of civil rights. In every aspect. Then to say the ONE big exception to that law is religious marriage, that offends logic. Why would ANY court in the future exempt religions from so called civil rights laws?

[antlion71]

read up on events in Massechusetts. It has happened there, so why would it not happen in California. His analysis is right on.

[osmiolos]

"Supposedly blacks would never get the priesthood"

Tell that to the Fijian Blacks who always had the priesthood!

the truth is your statements are based on your desire to ruin. A desire fueled by your lack of understanding of both LDS Doctrine and the way you were made to filled unwelcome in the Church of Jesus Christ!

[keen60]

wow a video that tries to take the emotion out of it i like it. However, in your support or if necessary in opposition to your ideas, the basis of tax exemption is clear it will simply be a popularity game. If it stays how it is that law makes it very easy for those in support of same sex marriage to cripple an organization that opposes their views. They simply group up in minority possies and use law and partial judges to penalize others.

[ViceWorld]

you know you are just a homophobic asshole.

[grazon]

Yes that should read starting.

[sfburnbarrel]

For some people, marriage is still paternalistic, i.e. husband is head of family. They see gay marriage as pushing marriage toward being more of a partnership of equals. With more equality, these men could lose power and these women could lose the comfort of being their husbands ward. For some, this is terrifying. A wife might ask: Why are you in charge? A husband might ask: Why is your care primarily my responsibility? For many, gay marriage begs these scary questions.

[MomntrySilence]

why the fuck does the govt have to intertwin on what SHOULD be a religoius and personal choice? screw the fucking "Documents" and shit, and get the fuck out of gays buisness man...

[frefisher]

Apparently you are not educated on this issue. Your language would indicate that you are not educated at all. If you have something to say, you should say it. You have said nothing.

[MomntrySilence]

ok, first off, im number 1 in the 10th grade calss at REVHS, out of almost a thousand other kids. im not dumb, im pissed. also, i said the govt should stay away from certain topics, homosexuality being one of them.

[nonst8]

So are you for gays having their civil rights or against it? What you say could be an argument for both sides.

[frefisher]

WHATEVER! Get a clue kid. You could really use one.

[MomntrySilence]

why are you against gays?

[nonst8]

I have a doctorate, and just am not the most careful editor in a format like this.  It is still readable despite typos.

[Lnickolas]

Lol I can already tell that Prop8Supporters are freaking out because they know that it's going to fail. Watch their words, they are unconvincing and bigoted. Their opinions and hateful words are discouraging and disparate.

[MomntrySilence]

hell ya they are

[nonst8]

Obama has chosen one of the main supporters of Prop 8 to lead his Family Values Tour. That plus the larger than usual African American turnout in November just might get it passed. Very scary.

[nonst8]

I mean queers are promiscuous, right? I mean they have sex outside of marriage all the time, so we can't allow them to get married. It just makes sense.

[genx1973]

I am a Californian and if gays want to get marry go do it somewhere else. every heard of NIMBY.

[nonst8]

Gay Californians have has much right to be here as you do. Why don't you move if you don't like us? We don't ask you to, all we ask for is our basic civil rights.

[nonst8]

The problem is that there is going to be a much larger than usual African American turnout due to Obama and Obama supports 8 and even wants to repeal "don't ask don't tell". Due to all this, those that care must work hard and donate all they can afford, so we are sent back to the cave age days.

[roni240]

get government out of marriage in the first place. who are we to tell another that they are not married. If one says they are married and puts them out as so then they are married. a piece of paper does not make one married, your commitment does. do not get a marriage license. it is a fraud.

[dikensteign]

agreed, just another way for some one to make money off of someone elses benefit.

[Lnickolas]

lol you fucking Mormons can move out to Arkansas and live where polygamy and incest is legal. Grow up, you bible-hugging love-hating LOSERS.

[grazon]

Aren't you charming?

[Bradian9]

obviously you have not looked down the legal road. Nice Sophistry Korihor!

[49511143021]

I'm sick of Rosie O' Donnell and other GLBT radicals, HATERS of Christians. I will never vote for people who support them!!!!! They are to JUDGEMENTAL and INTOLORENT for me. Its time to stop the hatred and begin the healing process. If GLBT wants to get in people's faces and argue about their bedroom hobbies, they could do that somewhere else. Please vote YES on CALIFORNIA PROP 8.

[nonst8]

The majority of gays are not that different from anyone else. How would you like it if we thought Howard Stern was an example of straight people? We want to have respectful sanctified relationships too and there are plenty of churches that do accept us and no reason to want to go to a church that does not. Churches rights within their churches will always be safeguarded.

[TheStrong32]

@49511143021 "I'm sick of Rosie O' Donnell and other GLBT radicals, HATERS of Christians. I will never vote for people who support them!!!!! They are to JUDGEMENTAL and INTOLORENT for me. "

Wow! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! Yeah, a lot of LGBT people *have* been turned away from the Church--by so-called Christians, who show them nothing but hatred and contempt. You have no right to complain! You know NOTHING about being the recipient of judgement and intollerance! NOTHING!

[brandyspearsca]

The Bible says to vote NO ON PROP 8: Ezekiel 23:20 "There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose ejaculations was like that of horses" Mormon prophets circle-jerk reading this verse while wearing sacred Mormon panties!

[riversideharp]

The major concern is civil marriages that can be performed by Bishop.

[rd1999]

you are never going to see gays sealings taking place in Mormon temples because actively Gay members would never qualify for a temple recommend. It sounds like there could be a challenge in the future of Gay marriages being forced on LDS Chapels but a quick excommunication would take care of that.

[ChristopherMillz]

Not that anyone would be able to force the Church to perform gay marriages. The Church has the right to decline. The scriptures are pretty clear on God's position concerning homosexuality. I cannot understand anyone who actually has hope that the doctrine will change. It simply will not happen.

[grazon]

"Not that anyone would be able to force the Church to perform gay marriages."

Yet.

Just wait till the ACLU and friends bring hundreds of lawsuits against every Church that won't allow a gay wedding to take place under it's roof.

[ChristopherMillz]

What a load of crap. There needs to be a constitional amendment to ban gay marriage and now!!

[grazon]

At this rate we may have no choice.

[nonst8]

I don't think an amendment like that will be allowed in the long run. It would be like passing an amendment that blacks could not have equal rights, it is just so unfair and prejudicial to one group, that it would not be allowed.

[frefisher]

Sorry for my response to you. I sent to the wrong person.I am new to Youtube. Please forgive me. There was a comment with obscene language that I meant to respond to. Thanks!

[nonst8]

That is OK, appreciate you clearing it up. In these formats it is easy to forget we are interacting with other human beings.

[ChristopherMillz]

It is nothing in comparison to African-Americans having equal rights. This is a moral issue and I think that Christians of any race would agree. When it comes to matters of moral issues, the majority wins. It should be voted on by the people. Courts do not have authority to make laws. I hope California turns this thing around.

[whenhen]

Courts have the rights to say that something is unconstitutional and strike it down, which is what they did for no gay marriage. Gay marriage is not a moral issue, it's a civil rights issue. The courts aren't trying to say that gay rights is the same as black rights, they're just saying that it bears striking resemblance to anti-interracial marriage and separate but equal laws in the Jim Crow days.

[ChristopherMillz]

And now the people actually get to vote on this issue and I pray that Proposition 8 passes and overturns this immorality.

[TheStrong32]

@ChristopherMillz "It is nothing in comparison to African-Americans having equal rights. This is a moral issue and I think that Christians of any race would agree."

(1) Many racist Christians believed interracial marriage was a moral issue too (in fact, their arguments were almost verbatim what the anti-gay agenda is preaching today);

(2) Christians do not all agree with one accord on this issue. There are many gay-affirming congregations out there--of all races.

[ChristopherMillz]

@TheStrong32 There are indeed gay-affirming congregations of various races... does that make it right then? The thing is, the Bible does not condemn interracial marriages. It has only been misinterpreted to do so. On the other hand, the Bible is very clear, as Jesus stated, that the purpose for God creating male and female is to marry one another and multiply. The Bible is also very clear that homosexuality is not part of God's plan and, unrepented for, is punishable with eternal consequences.

[nonst8]

That is just a red herring to scare people. It has never happened anywhere and gay marriage has been around for a while now.

[grazon]

Been around for a while now?

That's your defense?

AIDS has been around for a while now too.

Should we stop looking for a cure?

[nonst8]

I don't need a defense. We have done nothing but exist and stand up for our basic civil rights as human beings. The only thing we need to defend is ourselves against haters.

[grazon]

Yeah and people with Muscular Dystrophy do nothing but exist either.

Should we give up on that?

[nonst8]

So you think all gays and all people would Muscular Dystrophy should leave California. Because they are not exactly like you?

[grazon]

Is that a yes?

[nonst8]

These responses do not seem to be in order, so I don't know what it is you are asking me.

[grazon]

I wrote

"Yeah and people with Muscular Dystrophy do nothing but exist either.

Should we give up on that?"

[nonst8]

So you answered my question, with a question?

[grazon]

I seek clarification.

[nonst8]

Well we are clearly walking in circles.

[grazon]

Actually you could answer the question with a simple yes or no.

[nonst8]

Apparently you think I know what the question is. Maybe you could repeat it?

[grazon]

Go back and read this from the start.

[nonst8]

I have a number of times, and if you don't want to make an effort to be more clear, please let's just drop it. At this point I can't tell if you are just jerking my chain or if you just don't have well developed communication skills.

[grazon]

I have highly developed communication skills and I'm tarting to suspect that you're being obtuse.

[Bradian9]

For this one legal opinion, another 1,000 disagree. The learned justice George's decision may not force gay marriages on churches today. But the homosexual lobby will not stop. History mocks this man's opinion. Over the next twenty years this ruling will chip away at free exercise and free speech in this state and the country.

[TheStrong32]

@Bradian9 "The learned justice George's decision may not force gay marriages on churches today. But the homosexual lobby will not stop. History mocks this man's opinion. Over the next twenty years this ruling will chip away at free exercise and free speech in this state and the country."

Allright!! Wew!! Good old-fasioned fear-mongering at it's best! As a connoseur of moral-panic, I can authoritatively say that this post has all of the classic hyperventillating halmarks. Bravo!