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  • Jesus, please use this music or the words of believers to give "rick" a reason to reconsider the pain in his past that has led him to reject you. Also, please help others who may read "rick's" words here realize that he is angry and filled with doubt and so he wants others to be as well. Christians, please pray for "rick" that he may find peace and healing for whatever hurt that he has endured that has driven him to such darkness. Peace be with you, "rick." May Jesus evelope you with Love!

  • Rick, It's totally understandable the way you think at this moment because I did, too. For many years I didnt get it. Tried to read the bible, didnt get it. Went to church, didnt get it. Then, years later, my eyes were opened and I finally GOT IT. I sought and eventually found what I was looking for and I pray that you will also.

    The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing but for those who are being saved, it is the power of God!

    Seek and you will find the truth

  • psycho: Your eyes weren't opened... you just arrived at a point in your life when you decided to play along and be susceptible to the nonsensical edicts of the very untrustworthy "bible."

    You DO know the book was started by a group of people who wanted to create an alternate history for themselves after being involved in a violent rebellion against an ancient caste system, yes?

  • You are free to believe or disbelieve what you choose, but one thing you should not do is correct me on my personal experience. Also, to state that there is no God as an absolute is like stating that you know the secrets to the universe, which none of us do. Believing is by faith alone. Man's logic or intelligence cant come close to conceiving of God's wisdom. Our highest wisdom is as foolishness to him. Only God's own Holy Spirit can convince you of His existence.

  • psycho: You have amassed no personal experience which proves a "god" exists. I am 100% certain that all you can provide is personal testimony based on conjecture and "feelings" which can NEVER be proven real.

    You claim human logic cannot conceive the wisdom of the "god" you believe in. I presume your "god" is described in the "bible," yes? What would you say if I can prove that the "bible" is an incredily untrustworthy source of information and that the "god" described in its pages is....

  • A) Unaware that bats are not birds

    B) Incapable of being all-knowing

    C) Illogical

  • You believe in the wind, yet none of us have ever seen the wind. No, but we see the effects of the wind. Such is true of the Spirit of God. We dont see Him, but we see the effects on people's lives and in their hearts like with me. You are right, I cannot prove God's existence outright, but I can point to hundreds of lives that have been touched by God and also point to wonders of creation that suggest a creator, not random chance. I aim not to argue a point, I aim only to point you to the cross

  • psycho: That's an idiotic analogy.

    Wind can be measured AND generated by humans. If "wind" is like the "spirit of god," then it TOO should be able to be measured.

    No one has been touched by "god." Instead, millions have DELUDED themselves into thinking an invisible man - who will torture them FOREVER after death unless they do what he wants - somehow LOVES them.

    If your aim is to convert me, you're wasting both our time. The only thing that would make me believe in a "god" is PROOF.

  • Not my intent to convert you nor could I of my own abilities, utterance of speech or cleverness of written word. It is only the Spirit of the Living God that can convince you that He is real and alive. You are much closer to finding Him than you think you are..His hand is on you Rick and He has a plan and a purpose for your life. You were born when you were and in this place for a reason. Arise O sleeper. Arise and let Christ shine upon you!

  • psycho: What a load of crap!  You're very practiced with your religious bunk, I'll give you that.

    No invisible entity has a "plan" for every person on Earth.

    What, exactly, would the PLAN for children who are murdered by maniacs and/or molested by priests and other hooligans happen to be? What kind of "benevolent god" would make those kinds of atrocities any part of a "plan?"

  • I wish I could tell you resolutely. All I can do is default back to the book which you so distrust which tells us that sin came into the world through man's disobedience, and ever since then, we have been subject to all sorts of terrible things, both believer and non-believer alike. The difference is in that the Christian believes that this is a result of sin coming into this world. The non-beleiver sees it as proof there is no God, or that if there is a God, he is less than merciful and caring.

  • I also believe that God allows us to do as we please, to believe or not to believe, to kill or to heal. If God intervened in that manner than faith is no longer a part of the equation. God wants us to love Him even if we dont have proof. That is the beauty and the majesty of faith. Would you want your children to love you because they have to or because they want to? I have two small children and I know the answer to that one.

  • psycho: The "bible" was started by a group of people from Canaan who wanted to create an alternate history for themselves. They invented the book of Moses in a fairy successful attempt to distance themselves from their involvement in a violent rebellion against an ancient caste system. The stories and books were added to over time and are nothing but fiction atop fiction atop fiction.

    "Sin" is a state invented by the writers of the "bible" which does NOT exist.

    Also - no "god" exists.

  • Many of the "discussions" I've had in this forum have lead me to begin a series of essays entited, "Why I Am Atheist." All who are interested can read part one at ricksparks . blogspot . com

  • Hi Rick, I read the atheist part 1 on your blog. Actually I read the whole page, as it was very interesting (but crude, sometimes, I give it pg-13).

    I don't know you but I just want to say I am the happiest deluded person in the world!! Lol! Even if Jesus is a lie - he isn't - I don't regret living the way I do. I am loved and fulfilled... God has never failed me! Hope someday you will understand.

    Love~Amor

  • amore: Hi, thanks for reading it (and then some). Yeah, I'm a little salty sometimes. Is fun.

    I completely get wanting to feel loved by something unconditionally, and being willing to do so on the basis of faith and not fact. However, that's not even what "god" and "Jesus" offer - if you DON'T "love" them, you're threatened with being tortured forever AFTER death!

    If such a deity did exist, it wouldn't be worthy of worship on the basis of that alone. Tyrants are despicable.

  • Rick, I'm curious to know, from your or a general atheistic point of view, what is the reason for living? What about life makes it worth pushing for? Do you live for money, family, power, self-gratification...? Just curious.

  • amore: I can't tell you what a "general atheistic" point of view regarding life is. I don't speak for all atheists. I only speak for myself.

    Life is worth living because there is much joy to be had from loving (family and friends), working, and creating. Money's nice but I've found myself in times of plenty and times when frugality was key and noticed I always find a way to survive. I have no desire to control people who are not harming others.

  • To Rick. I think I've made my points clear for all to see. You can choose to believe or not. God does love you, Rick. And BTW, regarding your comment about If I were creating a religion, I also would include a line which indicates no one smart would reject said religion."

    It does: Psalm 14:1 The fool has said in his heart, There is no God.

    Regarding evidence: You ARE the evidence.

    I truly hope and pray you listen to the Holy Spirit's call on your heart before it is too late. Peace.

  • Rick, I am just another dude going down the road of life just like you and Jaw, but all I can say is that if you REALLY want to know for yourself if God is real, do this one thing. Ask God, in the name of Jesus to reveal himself to you, and really mean it earnestly. Then, after you have done this, pick up a bible, ask the Holy Spirit to reveal Himself to you through The Word and then just pick a spot anywhere and start reading. I recommend Matthew, Mark, Luke or John to start. Then you will know

  • It all comes down to basics

    The basics: Christ (the one in the Bible) was born of a woman and dwelt among us. He was executed and died on a cross. He rose from the dead according to scriptures and ascended into Heaven where He sits at this very moment making intercession for us.

    We either beleive He rose or not. That is the crux of our beleifs. Without Calvary, all of this discussion is moot.

    You cant argue or convince someone into the kingdom, but you can pray them in.

  • >You cant argue or convince someone into the >kingdom, but you can pray them in.

    Agreed...but you can certainly point out their errors...;)

  • True, true....as long as you do it in love and for the right motives, which I believe you are, than correction is acceptable and appropriate..

    I know that you want Rick to know that God is real, as I do also...but I can remember back before I came to believe, many times Christians tried to explain the mystery of the gospel to me but because I was hard of heart, I couldnt see it or understand it.

    We are only called to plant the seed. You have done so, now God will water it.

    Well done!

  • Flat out one of the greatest songs ever composed, whether secular or Christian.

    I am not the hugest fan of this musical style, but this song is INSPIRED and BRILLIANT, but more than that, the Spirit of God is all over this thing....gives me goosebumps every time I hear it.

    Great job putting your own selves and abilities aside and allowing yourselves to be used as "Holy Spirit conduit"!! It shows....

  • For some reason my replies arn't showing up under Rick's posts. for clarity all my responses thus far have been for rick...I just don't suffer willful ignorance or false logic easily. Rick, God loves you may choose to pretend in your own mind He does not exist. Doesn't change the reality. Hope you find you way. A first step would be to admit your logic and reason are woefully lacking wrt the Bible. The Bible stands. You can choose to ignore it, but it stands. Your call.

  • Amen to that!

  • jaw: Prove a "god" exists and I will believe in it. Otherwise, your "god" is just as real as Zeus, Ra, and Xenu.

  • Prove you exist and arn't just a poorly programmed bot for an atheist website then I'll take you seriously, otherwise you are just as credible as a rock.

  • jaw: I challenged you to do something you know is impossible. The fact that you think yourself clever, and that if you're clever enough you can avoid the very real fact that the "god" you believe in is fictional, is quite amusing.

    What if I told you I AM "god" and that I'm testing you; would you believe that instead?

  • I'd say you were a liar. You have none of the attributes of God.

  • jaw: Can you prove it? If not, you MUST believe in me. Otherwise, you face everlasting damnation! YOU HAVE OFFENDED YOUR TRUE LORD AND WILL NEVER BE ALLOWED TO GRACE MY KINGDOM!

    See how easy this stuff is?

    By the way, the days of "kings" are long gone. It amuses me that religious fools expect to live in a place with a palace, throne, and the like after they die.

  • And for the part where Satan showed Jesus the whole earth on a mountain. In actual fact its written that Satan showed Jesus the Glory of the cities of the earth. Not all the cities...

    One more thing I like to say this video dosen't fail to encourage me and is nice!

  • tb: Everyone can read the verse and think for themselves. Feel free to stop trying to justify the idiocy of the "bible" to me.

  • Mark 11:22-23"Have faith in God:, Jesus answered. " I tell you the truth, if anyone says to a mountain, 'Go throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him.

    The passage was about having Faith in Christ and we will receive what things we desire.

    I have to say that I do not receive all my prayers, but the times I do not, I always receive a better gift from God.

  • tb: That is a dishonest answer. The "bible" says ALL prayers of believers will be GRANTED. If you didn't get what you prayed for, then it proves at the very least that the "bible" is untrustworthy. To me, it is just another bit of the massive amount of evidence that "god" does not exist.

    Besides, that's hardly the only problem with the book.

    In both Deuteronomy and Leviticus, the character "god" refers to bats as BIRDS. Now, we know for a FACT that bats are most certainly NOT birds.

  • Umm actually yea thats true all prayers of believers will be granted but not what we desire in our prayers. What I wanted to show you was the earlier two verses talking about having faith in God. Being a believer is one thing, but do you have faith that he has better plans for you and I would be the question that every believer will ask if we have faith in him. However, not all the time do we have faith in christ which is why we also see "Sleeping Christians".

  • tb: Who do you think you're fooling?

    Mark 11:24 Therefore I say to you, What things soever you desire, when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you shall have them.

    WHAT THINGS SOEVER you pray for you WILL receive as long as you BELIEVE you will.

  • Mark 11:22-24 "Have faith in God":, Jesus answered. " I tell you the truth, if anyone says to a mountain, 'Go throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you hav received it, and it will be yours'

    NOTICE THE WORD Therefore... it means there was a condition which in mark 11:22-23 was having faith in God in his will btw Happy New Year!.

  • tb: All you're doing now is making EXCUSES for the "bible." I would think that a book which is supposed to be the "word of god" wouldn't NEED that kind of clarification.

    The book was originally kept out of the hands of followers. Passages were PURPOSEDLY written to be unclear so priests and other leaders could use it at their whim.

    - continued -

  • Look at these passages.

    PRO 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

    PRO 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

    They are side by side in the "bible." However, it is IMPOSSIBLE to do both unless there are conditions warranting either choice to be better. But, look closely at the surrounding text; NOTHING indicates that to be the case.

    The book is sheer nonsense.

  • Well like you said this time there are not warrants for either choice to be better, however if you read the passage it clearly states to ignore a fool. So with regards to this, if you answer a fool according to his folly, you will be like him, yet if you do not he will be wise in his own eyes. If thats the case thinking logically who likes being called a fool. So I'll just ignore his folly's yet that does not mean I will not love him.

  • If you are too dense to understand a Biblical version of the common phrase "Damned if you do and Damned if you don't", you are willfully ignorant.

  • jaw: The "bible" makes the ludicrous claim that BIRD BLOOD somehow helps a victim of leprosy. The passages also go on to indicate that sacrificing (KILLING) a lamb (or two pigeons, if the sufferer is poor) somehow helps as well.

    Does BIRD BLOOD have ANY effect on leprosy?

    Of course not. The "bible" was started by superstitious idiots who didn't understand disease and thought sacrificial rites would somehow "cure" the sick. Thanks to science we now know better.

    NO evidence; NO god.

  • You are 100% wrong...that was part of a ceremony for a *healed leper*. Get your story straight before you spew more idiocy. I challenge you to actually READ the Bible and honestly try to understand it. Lev 14 if you are curious.

  • jaw: You are a liar. The "bible" states, quite clearly, that all the animals sacrifices cleanse a house of leprosy. I was not incorrect to state it helps a "victim" of the disease.

    Victim does not necessarily mean deceased.

    I have read the book three times over the course of my life in order to better confront idiots like you with the foolishness of their beliefs. As Mark Twain said, "It ain't the parts of the book I don't understand that trouble me; it's the parts I do."

  • Let me explain it slowly..if you actually start *in context* with ver 1 or 2 you'll realize you are dead wrong. Lev 14 2-4

    " Now he shall be brought to the priest, 3 and the priest shall go out to the outside of the camp. Thus the priest shall look, and if the infection of leprosy has been healed in the leper, 4 then the priest shall give orders to..."

    Note the "if the infection has been healed" clause. The cleansing was ceremonial. Again, your objection is proven completely proven false.

  • jaw: Slowly? How, exactly, do you plan to do that in writing... do you operate under the delusion that I see how slowly you type?

    I understand the entirety of the passage. My original statement is still valid; the "bible" claims BIRD BLOOD and the death of a sheep (or two pigeons) somehow helps a sufferer of leprosy. If you suffer and survive something like leprosy or cancer, it is 100% accurate to describe you as someone who SUFFERED it.

    - continued -

  • Also, and very imporantly, during that time the disease was INCURABLE. Antibiotics to fight the bacteria that cause leprosy hadn't been invented. So, not only is the "bible" encouraging the sacrifice of animals, it did so during a time when such a thing as a cured leprosy victim would NEVER have existed!

    Your view is very narrow. It's not your fault; religion has clouded your thinking.

  • Oh and if I fooled anyone I'm sorry I'm just stating what I know about that passage if I find it truthful then yes by all means let it be known.

  • plus can you show me the verse which said so about, the character "god" refers to bats as BIRDS. Like the earlier case you might also want to read the earlier verses sometimes the context of the verse is also important

  • LEV 11:13 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination

    (list of birds)

    LEV 11:19 And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the BAT.

    ... also ....

    DEU 14:11-12 Of all clean birds ye shall eat.

    DEU 14:12 But these are they of which ye shall not eat... (list of birds)

    DEU 14:18 And the stork, and the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.

    Bats are NOT birds.

  • At the bottom of the Bible there's this little note at least for mine. Its also written The precise identification if some of the birds and animals in this chapter is uncertain

  • tb: Most "bible" don't contain footnotes that attempt to correct or make apologies for the more idiotic parts of the book. You using the NIV edited in the 1960s?

    At any rate, that just further proves my point that the book CANNOT be taken as a source of truth.

    Besides, the "bible" also claims the world is flat in many passages, and at least one quote is attributed to the character "god." It is sheer lunacy to follow the edicts of a book which is so very clearly wrong regarding Earth.

  • As for the bible saying that the earth is flat do you mind letting me know where you found the passages for it?

  • Isaiah 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH.

    ----------

    Spheres don't have corners.

    Jeremiah 16:19 ... my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH

    --------------------------

    Spheres don't have ends.

    - continued -

  • Daniel 4:11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH

    Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them

    -----

    These both would be impossible unless the Earth was flat.

    - continued -

  • This one is my favorite:

    Job 38:44 Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?

    ---------------

    Foundation? As in, FIXED? Also, lines stretch ACROSS flat things. They stretch AROUND spherical things.

  • Rick,

    Have you ever said "The sun rose"...then by your own logic you are an idiot who should never be listened to. Here's the deal...the Bible uses this thing called "metaphor" which is still a concept used today if you haven't noticed. "Four Corners of the earth" is a methaphor that is still used today BTW.

    Re:bats and birds. God doesn't have to use your current defenitions to define "foul". Would you feel better if he had said "flying things"? Sheez.

  • jaw: I spent a moment thinking about your question. The closest I have ever come to saying that was the phrase, "... the sun's out!" Meaning, of course, that it was daytime.

    If you dismiss ANY section of the "bible" as metaphor, then what makes you think a single part of it should be taking as factual? Who is in charge of deciding what is real and what is parable... you?

    Not "foul"... FOWL. Please learn the difference. Besides, that's hardly the worst of the book's contradictions.

  • Oh still doing research on the parts on bats being birds so sorry I've been so busy.

  • tb: You'll never find anything that properly resolves it. It all comes down to one of the following:

    A) "God" does not CARE if "he" explains things correctly.

    B) "God" does not KNOW bats are not birds.

    C) "God" is a fictional character invented by humans who did not know bats are not birds.

  • Ok well here's what I found out... We didn't read it properly. For the bats but here lets talk about the foundations of the earth. First of all the bible uses many metaphors and its used to describe gods reign over the erath and the earth depends on him for its support.

    As for the Bats... Both of us didn't read it carefully for that I'm sry it took so long. The passage says that Clean Birds are allowed to be eaten but Bats are just considered as unclean nthn is said of it being birds.

  • tb: Your "analogy" (if it could even be called that, seeing as how it's so weak) makes no sense.

    Everyone can read the passages regarding bats and see that "god" includes BATS in his long list of fowl which he claims should not be eaten. You are either ignorant or are being purposefully deceitful.

    Leviticus 11:13-19 and Deuteronomy 14:11-18

  • oh ya on the part where it's written

    Daniel 4:11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH

    At that time Daniel was having a vision and so the meaning of it was unclear until the persians came then the romans.

  • tb: And how do you plan to dismiss all the other verses which make no sense unless the Earth is assumed to be flat?

    It doesn't matter what the story is about. The fact is, it refers to the planet as being FLAT. The person described as speaking actually receives a response from another character who also refers to the world as flat.

  • The problem is not one of biological classification but of semantics and translation. The Hebrew word in Leviticus 11:13-25 is "oph". (G V Wigram, Englishmans Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance, Bagster & Sons, pp 911-912)

    In a similar passage in Deuteronomy 14:11-20 the word is "psippor" in verse 11 and "oph" in 19-20. (Wigram p. 1079) Neither word completely corresponds to the English "bird" or "fowl".

  • Tsippor" is used of birds and bats. "Oph" also refers to birds and bats. However, when "Oph" is qualified by the word "creeping things" (Hebrew = "sheretz"; Wigram p. 1327) it refers to insects.

    If we translate "oph" and "tsippor" as "flying creatures" or "winged creatures" the skeptics complaint is answered since both birds and bats are winged creatures!

    courtesy a d a m d o t c o m

    Any more objections, Rick?

  • Not only that if you read the bible carefully, The bible just said that you may eat any clean bird but its through inference that many assume that the passage says Bats are Birds too (I was one of them). In fact the bat is just considered unclean. Its just like telling someone to walk across a road with traffic lights when its green and also telling him not to cross the road without looking left or right first. The only common thing is that its for your good both in this case and the Bible.

  • tb: Read the beginning of the passages for yourself. You see it clearly states "god" is listing FOWL which should not be eaten.

  • And "fowl" as used doesn't have to meet your strict definition.  You have constructed a straw man argument. This is getting circular.

  • jaw: If that is true (and I certainly don't know, I don't have a Hebrew "bible"), that still proves the 1769 King James "bible" to be erroneous.

    Besides, are you now going to claim that the OT does NOT state women should marry a man who rapes them? That there are many passages which refer to the Earth as if it is FLAT? That the flood story took place in light of the fact that even 19th centuray Christian scientists admitted no geological evidence supported the idea?

    Gimme a break.

  • If you don't understand the Hebrew then learn or be quiet about it. And the translation isn't "erroneous"...it just doesn't meet your fabricated standards. The passage seems pretty clear from the context that "fowl" means "flying creature"..which, Surprise, Surprise, that view is consistent with the Hebrew. I believe in all writings it is only fair to pick the view that is *most consistent*, not the one that you can twist to take out of context. You obviously don't.

  • jaw: You're the one that brought it up. I am focused on the version used in the western world, the King James "bible." If you think for a second that you're going to make people believe it's true just because a few words are different in a book most of us cannot read, you're sadly mistaken.

    Besides, the original book of Moses still described "god" as one of the most unpleasant characters ever invented. If such a being did exist, it would be wholly unworthy of worship.

  • >I am focused on the version used in the western world,

    Of course you are...because you can try and twist it to your own devices vice actually being honest. Are you seriously saying that looking at the original languages something is written in for context or clarity is somehow "bad"? Are you really saying that? Are you really that myopically non-intellectual?

    re: 2nd para...again with the subject change and unfounded digs based on your own prejudices...why are you such a hater?

  • jaw: You're insane. I never made any such claim.

    The whole "bible," no matter WHAT language you read it in, is ludicrous tripe. It is of no more value than the books of Scientology.

    I think it is you who is the hater. You can't stand the notion that someone such as me is smart enough to recognize your deluded view of the world for what it is; sheer poppycock.

    I hate none of you, including you. I just want you all to THINK and to stop being suckers for the oldest con in the world.

  • BTW, are going to continually try to change the subject when I spank you on the facts of the situation? OK...I'll play..

    1. Your twisted view of Deut 22 is just that...twisted. That particular passage is a descrition of *statutory rape* and the use of the word "rape" in that translation suffers from the years between the translation and today. Go to w w w . answering-islam . o r g /Shamoun/ot_and_rape.htm and learn something.

  • jaw: You think your SPANKING me now? In your dreams, weirdy.

    Please get help with your mental delusions. You are in serious need of a counselor.

    If you don't have the ability to discuss this rationally then I have no interest in discussing things with you. I have little time for violence-minded fools.

  • >Please get help with your mental delusions.

    Right back at you...

    >If you don't have the ability to discuss this rationally then I have no interest in discussing things with you.

    That's right...run away when your lying is exposed.

    >I have little time for violence-minded fools.

    Do you really think I was talking "violence"? Are you that ignorant of figures of speech? No wonder you have problems understanding the Bible...you don't even understand your own language...

  • jaw: One of us believes an invisible man is watching everything he does. One of us does not. How do you figure that makes ME the one needing mental help?

    I'm not running away at all. I'm still here. I'm just reminding you that if you're going to be little more than a useless troll that I will not waste time with you.

    "SPANKING" is a violent act. Besides, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't engage in fantasies about me like that. I'm not interested.

  • RE: earth is Flat...didn't I already explain this to you or are you that thick? Quick, run to your atheist website to try and throw something else up...

    Re: The flood. Just because some idiot "Christians" want to deny the Flood doesn't make the Bible any less true. Science validates the flood perspective as much as any other. w w w . aig . com

  • jaw: There are at least five verses in the "bible" which only make sense if our planet is assumed to be flat. One of them is attributed to the character "god" and is my favorite:

    Job 38:4 Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?

    ---------------

    Foundation? As in, FIXED? Not our core. Also, lines stretch ACROSS flat things. They stretch AROUND spherical things.

  • Again...you are being willfully obtuse and excluding that the Bible is using *metaphor*. Have you ever explained something to a child? Now multiply that intellectual difference by an infinite amount. That is God talking to Job. Psalms also mentions God knitting us together in our mother's womb...do you really think God was in your Mom's tummy with a pair of knitting needles? No, the Bible is being poetic and metaphoric...just like writing today. Again...you are being willfully ignorant.

  • jaw: If the "bible" uses metaphor in that manner, then what makes you think ANY part of it should be thought to be the truth?

    The credit you give to a "god" is based on a book of fairy tales which was started under false pretenses. No "god" spoke to a character named "Moses." The characters were invented by a group of people attempting to create an alteranate history for themselves because they had done some very violent things to other people.

    The majority of your comment is nonsense.

  • jaw: The flood as described in the "bible" did NOT happen. Go ahead and believe it was real all you want; however, faith does not trump fact.

    NO evidence; NO god.  It's that simple.

  • OK...prove the flood didn't happen. I submit that there is significant factual evidence scientifically that it did...it all depends upon which set of "glasses" or assumptions you make. Again...get educated or at least try to pretend to have an open mind.

  • jaw: You've submitted a claim that it occurred. What is your evidence?

    While you try to pull something out of your ass, do a little research regarding Lord Kelvin's work in the mid-1800s. His calculations and geological research proved the story of the flood to be downright false. By the end of that century, theological essayists overwhelmed by the massive amount of evidence proving the story false attempted to claim that the "bible" is true but the early books mere allegory; NOT fact.

  • Why? Just because it hurts your self-constructed notions about the Bible? You are the one with the issue and all the false statements about the Bible...not me. Who is the idiot at this point? Right back at ya: Feel free to stop posting idiodic statements you cut and pasted from athiest websites against the Bible to me. Try thinking for yourself for a change.

  • jaw: I was forced to define myself as atheist in the mid-80s. No web sites convinced me to do so. I know it pleases you to believe my thought are not my own, but it is really you who is controlled by supersitious nonsense. You're engaging in projection.

    You are a deluded fool for the oldest con in the world.

    If your "god" is real and grants all believer's prayers as the "bible" claims, why don't prayers to cure terminal cancer or to heal amputated limbs come true?

  • OH, I think I have a pretty good idea where your thoughts come from...

    Calling Christianity a "con" doesn't make it so.

    All prayers are always answered. Yes, No or wait. Once again you creat a non-existant straw man and try to knock it down. The Bible never says unequivocally that all believers prayers will be answered the way they desire. You *choose* to take things out of context. Try taking a high school debate course to brush up on your skills.

  • jaw: You should at least take the time ot refer to a "bible" before making your ludicrous claims. Now, I shall just make you look silly and ignorant.

    Mark 11:24 What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. (KJV)

    Note it doesn't claim you MIGHT have what you pray for... you SHALL have what you pray for.

    When I was in high school in the mid-80s I received excellent marks in debate. It seems it is YOU who needs to develop some skills.

  • re: mark 11:24

    Sigh...you really love being obtuse don't you?

    Start with verse 23 and it becomes clear. First, it could be seen to be specific to the disciples. Second, it requires *complete* faith(how many really have that?). There is also assumed context. That was is being asked for is within God's will. This is validated by many other Biblical references. Again...you choose to view it obtusely..I view it consistently. Which is more fair?

  • jaw: How funny. So, in order to receive one's prayers, you must attain a status which is unattainable? Quite convenient, don't you think?

    I forgot; you DON'T think. All you've done thus far is attempt to defend the extremely indefensible.

    I gave the "bible" a chance in my teens. The book is be utter foolishness, and its "god" non-existent. If it were made into a full-length movie, it would be worthy of the Mystery Science Theater treatment. The contradictions and plot holes are astounding.

  • It says "fowls"...which means flying things, which we already established. Get over it already. BTW, I find huge irony in that you are 100% validating Proverbs 26:3-4...

    C'mon...go back and find some more cut 'n paste from your atheist websites...

  • jaw: The fact that you have to go to outside sources to make EXCUSES for the fact that the writers of the "bible" did not know bats are not birds proves the book to be untrustworthy.

    If I were creating a religion, I also would include a line which indicates no one smart would reject said religion.

    I'm ignorning your last sentence.  It is utterly idiotic.

  • Going to other sources that provide relevant amplifying information is just being a smart, reasonable person. You are once again being WILLFULLY IGNORANT in looking at what the Bible says and what the Hebrew words used actually mean. Another word for your condition...ironically I might add...is self-delusion. The explanation is clear...the word used in Hebrew is for "flying things". It is translated most closely to "fowl". If you can't get that you are simply being argumentative.

  • jaw: Even if what you claim is true, you've still supported my argument that the "bible" (English) is bunk.

    Besides, that's hardly the only discrepancy.

    In Genesis 1, "god" supposedly creates animals, THEN humans. But in Genesis 2, it is said "god" creates Adam (with a penis? Remember, no women exist yet...) , THEN animals, then Adam whines that none of them are a suitable partner (I hate to think of how he arrived at that conclusion), and THEN "god" creates Eve... and her vagina.

  • we are all sinners, deserving of an unending Hell. YET, Jesus Christ died so that we don't have to go there. what Christ offers is FREE, but many throw it back in His face. so to those on this message board denouncing the name of Jesus, you tell me since you are so "intelligent", where will you go when you die. your arrogance tires me. you have many words, but little knowledge, except how to keep your mouth open long enough to let everyone know, just in fact, how little that you do know.

  • Amen.  That was a great comment. Merry Christmas!

  • MikeyMetFan...thank you for you support. i may have been a little abrasive. i'm just tired of the truth having to stand in the shadows. it's one thing to question the truth that is Christ, but some have gone on the attack of Christ. that's nothing new, but the truth must be told. Merry Christmas to you and yours.

  • Well actually that wasn't too bad. All u need to add is the love god gave us. And Remember god is not only a god of wrath or a god of love. In fact he is both plus he's also soverign and many more. So the decisions will be done by him. Who am I so small to judge others as small as me when he is soverign Post Merry Christmas and A Happy New Year! May the Soverign God Bless those who call upon his name!!!

  • I do not need religion. I have a conscience.

  • ricksparks.....i find it rather peculiar that someone like yourself, so opposed to religion or Christianity (which seems to be your real gripe) is on a Christain video message board arguing about things that you're "not" concerned with. The free gift of salvation from the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is for you too. Does your "conscience" know you're watching that video?

  • jarod: That's a strange assumption you've made. I've NEVER watched or listened to the video. I head straight to the comment sections.

    I am engaged in reminding as many people as I can stomach that religion is for suckers. I can actually proven the "god" of the "bible" is not real.

    First, read this:

    Mark 11:24 Therefore I say to you, What things soever you desire, when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you shall have them.

    Do you receive ALL your prayers?

  • ricksparks....fair enough regarding the assumption, but if you're so sure that God doesn't exist, why even bother wasting your time on trying to convince others that He doesn't? take a look a tblanker's comments, they're "spot on." i urge you to examine the Bible, don't take our word for it, STUDY and read for yourself the WE are all sinners. you've made your case, so why does it bother you so much that we believe Christ? it's not an exclusive "club", the free gift of salvation is for ALL.

  • jarod: I'm not trying to convince people "god" doesn't exist. I'm REMINDED them that "god" doesn't exist. There's a difference, make a note of it.

    Interesting that you brought up sin. The whole idea is ludicrous. It proves one of three things:

    A) "God" is a jerk who set up humans to fail.

    B) "God" is NOT all-knowing and all-seeing... otherwise, why get mad about something "he" should have known would happen?

    C) "God" is a fictional character invented to exert control over people.

  • ... sorry.... REMINDING, not "reminded"....

  • The Bible has never been proven false. In fact, there are people who have set out to prove it false and have admittedly failed.

  • The "bible" claims bird blood is to be used against LEPROSY.

    The "bible" claims BATS are BIRDS in both Leviticus and Deuteronomy... in fact, in both cases, it is supposedly the character "god" speaking. If "god" existed, he/she/it should at least know that bats are NOT birds.

    The "bible's" claims about creation contradict each other with regard to the order humans and animals were supposedly made.

    -- continued --

  • Gen1: "God" creates animals first, THEN humans.

    -----

    Gen2:7 "God" makes man from dust.

    Gen2:19 ... And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air

    Gen2:22 (God takes Adam's rib and) made he a woman

    Both stories CANNOT be true. From the very beginning, the "bible" proves itself incredibly untrustworthy. What makes you think anything else in its pages can be taken as true?

  • galatians 2:20

  • this is what we all need to do Die To Self

  • Another great song by Phillips, Craig & Dean

  • "why would the apostles lie? If they lied, what was their motive, what did they get out of it? What they got out of it was misunderstanding, rejection, persecution, torture, and martyrdom. Hardly a list of perks!"=Peter Kreeft

  • The average lifespan in that day was thirty-three years old. They had nothing to lose. If people believed their stories, they would have been revered and cherished.

    Besides, this is all academic. NONE of the so-called "apostles" have EVER been proven to be real people.

    Just like "god" - no evidence, no existence.

  • Out of curiousity, was...Georage Washington a real person?

  • Disregard the spelling in that.

    To reply to an even more relevant topic, did it perhaps occur to you the classification at the time was different then ours.

  • uss: Of course. We have enumerate refences describing his life. However, "Jesus" and "god" have just the "bible." NO other piece of evidence exists, save for those which are BASED on the "bible."

  • This is a lie. The writings of Josephus valid the existance of Jesus and everything found archaeologically so far validates the Bible.

  • jaw: While is it possible a person named "Jesus" existed during the time as described in the "bible," not ONE single historical source (save the book which also claims bats are birds and that women should marry a man who rapes them) makes the claim that "he" was a "god."

    In the 19th century, in light of geological evidence, even Christian scientists admitted the flood story was ludicrous and that it was merely allegory. Claims about some kingdoms have also been proven wrong by archaologists.

  • I am crucified in Christ almighty!

    God saves us...and will never abandon us.

    +SOV Queen

  • Very touching...I luv this song, I know the Holy Spirit is working with those men who created this song... God Bless them & everyone who has listened to it...

  • This is an awesome song! It is a very peaceful realization that no matter how rough the going gets, we are united with Christ; and even more beautifully, we have life through him!

  • great song i love it so much

  • You forgot the third class--those who promote false dichotomies.

  • I'm sorry that you and people you know have been mistreated by religious or non-religious people, but the quote you posted above with approval is an unfair, completely unrealistic blanket statement.

  • Look, I will not be dragged into this same old debate with you when all I was pointing out is that the quotation you cited was out of line. Ok? I'm just not going there with you. Have a better day.

  • The quotation is certainly not out of line. The fact that you refuse to answer those very simple questions proves it accurate.

  • Oh hi, there's just some things which I wanted to point out.

    First reguarding the first and third qn. I'm not sure if you meant christianity but if it was then there's three things wrong 1st christianity I never would consider as a religion. Second I've never seen a religion that demand's you to believe if you do not want to... Third could you name me some examples for the archeological evidence if possible a link that showed it was wrong and the verse in the bible that said so?

  • Many Christians like to believe they don't engage in religion, but look up the definition of the word:

    religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances

    EVERY major religion demands you join - under threat of everlasting torture upon DEATH.

    The "Noah's Ark" story was proven false hundreds of years ago. Look up Thomas Huxley.

  • heathens - not heathers. Oops!

  • Wonderful message!

  • As a child my aunt would always sing this song for it was her favorite. now i can see why it was her favorite. now it's my favorite.

  • this song is very wonderful!

    specially the lyrics .. :)

    God bless you GotzTaLoveIt :)

  • omg!! my uncle used to sing this song all the time!! it makes me cry!! its so beautiful!!

  • u have to put ur trust in god

  • i learned the hard way that u cant put all ur trust in even ur greatest friends some of them even betrayed me

  • let us all never forget that it is Jesus, and Jesus alone who saves us from our wretched selves. we are all sinners and by His grace and love for us, we are saved.

  • God the father had to turn his face from all the sins of the worldpace present and future,that was place on his son. Even in the Quran it says Jesus will come back to judge the world, so I wouldn't talk to bad about him. I don't blame you for thinking christians are a joke, most of them are. but there is a church out there that believe's alot like yours.

  • This is a beautiful video and worth meditating on. Thanks!

    God bless you!

    May we all be crucified with Christ, he died for all of us. God said, I will give my very best! And he did!

  • wow!this is an awesome song!it really touches my heart listening to it!

  • i wish i would have through of playing this at mt baptism it wopuld have went good with it.

  • no other gospel will men hear , than the gospel they see.  Who do sinners see when they see you?

  • ...not I but Christ who lives within me, His cross will never ask for more than I can give, for it's not my strength, but His!

    Thank-you Lord for dying for me, and giving me new life in You!

  • I am so grateful that I took up the Cross and ran with it....I was so lost before that! Thank you Jesus...I LOVE YOU SO MUCH!

  • This song is a great song and has touched my soul.I find it good to lsiten to during prayer.

  • Galatians 2:19 - For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; (20)and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God,* who loved me and gave himself for me.

  • The sweetness in being broken.

  • For I'm crucified with Christ and yet I live. Not I but Christ that live within me. Awesome song.

  • Jesus is the Christ,the son of the living GOD

    Matthew 16:16 - "JESUS"

    a true priest - who 4gives our sins

    a true prophet- the only way to meet GOD

    a true king - who has all power to crash down the works of SATAN...

    how precious ur name is-that gives life to those who believe! PRAISE GOD!

  • suppose to read these guys are great

  • thank u JESUS

  • hands lifted to God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • thanks for putting this song on u tube, these guts are great and I love this song.

  • I have always been blessed by this song. Thanks for putting the lyrics up. The very first time I heard it playing over the radio, tears welled my eyes for the divine truth this song conveys. Praise be to God.

  • This song reminds me of my music pastor every time I hear it. He lives this song out every day of his life and it's such a blessing to have that example to follow. Even though I'm only 17 I, too, pray every day that I can be "crucified with Christ" - for then I live!

  • "I've never felt so much alive"..

    Not without you, my Lord..

  • if you like good christian music like brian free & assurance then watch my vid of them singing "as if the cross was not enough" =]

  • Why was DrillTurtle's video marked as spam? He was just asking people to check out his video.

  • I have no idea why the did that.. oh well=]

    God bless=]

  • I am crucified with Christ and yet I live, not I but Christ that lives within Me. Awesome lyrics, very deep song.