Disagree. He's using the popularity of public office to advance a religious agenda. As governor he is no longer Joe Citizen. If he was he wouldn't ride around in a bullet-proof chauffeur-driven limousine paid for by the fine people of Texas.
@Godbreaker15 I wouldn't see it that way (defending the enemy). There is definitely a grey area here that Perry is gleefully playing with. It leaves room for debate and the expressing of opposing views. On an issue like this I enjoy dissenting opinions.
"tread not lightly where issues of free speech are concerned."
Btw CJ, I'm doing a response to this - assuming my bloody camera just recorded everything I said fifteen minutes ago and I didn't end up just talking to a blinking light.
I am totally for his right to do this. I would never want to take that away. I still think we should ridicule it as it is absolutely insane.
Honestly if an Muslim governor did this, Christians would try and prevent him from doing so. They are hypocritical, but I honestly would support any governors right to practice his or her religion in any way they see fit. And we get to make fun of them for it.
i'm always confused as to what the aim of posts like your's are, you're clearly going out of your way to offend the person you're talking to... so you can't possibly be interested in any real exchange of ideas, neither can you be expecting to change someone's opinion by insulting them...
i'm guessing then, you mad bro?
jokes aside, you're the enemy, not cobra. you're dirtying the waters of discussion with insult flinging, be respectful, please! otherwise, we don't need you here
As long as Perry doesn't call for a day of prayer using his official government resources, it's no problem. He can do whatever he likes in his private life.
Second, if having someone in power talking to an invisible man in the sky is a bad idea, then we're royally screwed, cuz almost everyone in power talks to invisible people.
@LatumWay Depends on what you mean by "liberal" I suppose.
the term has a lot of meanings. It has "classical liberal" (old style free market type), social liberal (lefty), neoliberal (new style free market type) etc. etc.
GB15 says that he disagrees with neoliberals in his video, so I think he's saying that CJ is a neoliberal, not that he's a left-winger.
Hate to be the fly in the ointment but if Gov. 'Good Hair' uses his own time and his own dime, then I don't really have a problem as a Secularist. Despite his position, he's still a private citizen. So I'm agreeing 100% here. I'm keeping my powder dry on this one. BTW, it's a cheesy ploy to pander to the Christian Right. The real irony is that 'Evil Leftie Secularist Scum (TM) squawking about it actually helps the charade.
He's using the power and celebrity of his office to push the event without which he would be getting no media attention.
He also called for "Fellow Governors" to join him.
I think it is very clear that he's crossed over the line of abusing his his power as governor to push a specific religious oriented event and endorsing groups that are habitually discriminatory all (likely) in the interest of pursuing a presidential primary bid.
@TheTruePooka The problem I have with that is it's essentially saying "Once you become governor, you're not allowed to talk about your religion." And I don't think that's right.
I will say that he's getting close to the line of separation, but so long as he doesn't use state resources, I don't have a problem with it (outside of "I think he's wasting his and a lot of people's time")
The moment he (or any of his fellow governors) spends a red cent on it though...then I'd have a problem with it.
(continued) and that would include using state transportation to get to the event. He will probably, by necessity, have guards with him, but that would happen even if he went to church. If he helicopters in, or has a huge parade or motorcade with him paid for by the taxpayer...yeah, then I'd be a bit more peeved.
@TheTruePooka Not to mention that he's in a position of power to actually do something but instead wants to start dismantling social programs (even the ones that help prevent/stop wildfires)
That would be true if the Governorship would be separated from the person the Governor is.
But if that was the case we also could not demand a Governor to step down from his office if he cheats on his wife with his 18 year old intern.
The point is that we expect celebrities to use their status to do good. The Governor believes that praying is a good thing, therefore asking people to pray is a good thing. Therefore I expect him to do so. Even as an atheist.
@TheTruePooka "using his power as governor to push a specific religious oriented event"
exactly, it's kinda fucking impossible for a governor to act in his capacity as a citizen, consider he is viewed as a governor first by most people. I could be wrong, but i don't think the issue of state resources that Cobra brought up is the only test. He's still promoting something religious through the government.
@TheTruePooka So what? Lot's of Americans ask the leadership to pray. He's an American citizen and as long as he isn't doing this through the governors office, what is the big deal? I am as much as an anti-theist as you, but I don't want to turn our country into an atheistic nation and am quite happy with a secular nation.
well that's my point. The 1st amendment only says that Congress can make no law respecting the establishment of religion. But Rick Perry speaks for the state of texas, not the united states.
@migkillertwo And that's where the argument over the degree of federalism kicks in. I personally think that anything that restricts the federal government should restrict state governments as well, but there is the argument that states aren't held to the same limits as the federal government. The latter view hasn't held much water since the Civil War, however.
That's a very interesting interpretation of the constitution, but the 10th amendment says that powers not granted to the federal government are still reserved to individual states.
@migkillertwo And by that argument, individual states have the right to imprison you for political speech, can take away your guns, can put you in prison for no reason, can have tribunals instead of trial by jury, etc. While that may be true in the technical sense, I certainly don't think it should be.
If we were living in 1864, I would have begrudgingly agreed that States COULD do all those things. But we have a 14th amendment that protects our privileges and immunites and our right not to be deprived of life or liberty without due process.
@migkillertwo Watch Rith's video response to Devchelle and he'll lay it out for you. The Cliff's Notes version is thus, many court decisions and amendments apply the Bill Of Rights to ALL governments in the United States.
Thanks, but I know all about how the courts have tried to apply some of the bill of rights against the states, and I am still not convinced that the establishment clause applies to the states either. One would have to argue that the separation of church and state is somehow inherent in the concept of Liberty, or that one of your privileges and immunities is to live under a secular government.
This just isn't so. States had churches and public school prayer after 1865
@migkillertwo The separation of church and state is inherent in the concept of liberty. Otherwise, the state can tell me who/how to worship. If, as a Baptist, I were forced by the government (state or federal) to attend Catholic Mass, how is that *not* a violation of my liberty? If the state of Utah makes Mormonism the official state religion, and I lived in Utah and was not a Mormon, the state of Utah would be infringing on my religious freedom.
@CobraJones One can still have the freedom to worship or not worship however one wants if there is an official state religion. In Israel, you have the right to be a Christian or Muslim but the official state religion is Judaism. Teaching creationism or giving churches tax exemptions does not violate your fundamental right to choose your religion. A state religion may lead to this down the road, but it itself does not infringe on your rights. Hence, it is not inherent to the concept of liberty.
Are you refering in particular to The Amazing Atheist video. Because I think much of the criticism directed at Rick Perry isn't about his right or not do what he did, but more about the fact that he would rather waste his time in useless prayers than actually do something to change the state of his state and country. Thinking that a person should leave his religious beliefs behind when taking office is ridiculous, but criticizing them for not acting out of rationality is not.
@CobraJones He gets angry, that's part of his routine. I'm sure he wasn't that surprised, although probably facepalming. As long as his commentary are smart ones, it doesn't matter to me.
Separation of Church and State is just part of the principle of Majority rules but with minority right's. The majority can worship any god they wish as long as they don't require anyone else to join them.
I'm in Canada... I have no idea what the religion of our Prime Minster is. I assume he is some form of Christian since he is Conservative... Same goes for my MP (Member of Parilament)....
We just don't talk about religion of our politicians. They don't mention it in their campaigns, and is rarely brought up. I don't know what the religion of the leader of the official oposition (the NDP) or the Liberals...
If Rick Perry was in Canada, people would not take his religion touting very well.
This is exactly as I feel about it. I never understand how people expect politicians to leave their religious belief's behind when in office. That's not what separation of church and state means. Maybe I'd prefer there to be fewer religious politicians but, to be honest, religion isn't even an issue when i vote, even though some people seem to think it should be the main one.
Disagree. He's using the popularity of public office to advance a religious agenda. As governor he is no longer Joe Citizen. If he was he wouldn't ride around in a bullet-proof chauffeur-driven limousine paid for by the fine people of Texas.
2dogarage 7 months ago
@Godbreaker15 I wouldn't see it that way (defending the enemy). There is definitely a grey area here that Perry is gleefully playing with. It leaves room for debate and the expressing of opposing views. On an issue like this I enjoy dissenting opinions.
"tread not lightly where issues of free speech are concerned."
Btw CJ, I'm doing a response to this - assuming my bloody camera just recorded everything I said fifteen minutes ago and I didn't end up just talking to a blinking light.
TheTruePooka 8 months ago
@Godbreaker15 Just for you, by the way: /watch?v=NdAFwTq-MNk
CobraJones 8 months ago
I am totally for his right to do this. I would never want to take that away. I still think we should ridicule it as it is absolutely insane.
Honestly if an Muslim governor did this, Christians would try and prevent him from doing so. They are hypocritical, but I honestly would support any governors right to practice his or her religion in any way they see fit. And we get to make fun of them for it.
ExSaint1379 8 months ago 4
@Godbreaker15
i'm always confused as to what the aim of posts like your's are, you're clearly going out of your way to offend the person you're talking to... so you can't possibly be interested in any real exchange of ideas, neither can you be expecting to change someone's opinion by insulting them...
i'm guessing then, you mad bro?
jokes aside, you're the enemy, not cobra. you're dirtying the waters of discussion with insult flinging, be respectful, please! otherwise, we don't need you here
IzzyBunneh 8 months ago
As long as Perry doesn't call for a day of prayer using his official government resources, it's no problem. He can do whatever he likes in his private life.
SirPwn4lot 8 months ago
@Godbreaker15 First, fuck you.
Second, if having someone in power talking to an invisible man in the sky is a bad idea, then we're royally screwed, cuz almost everyone in power talks to invisible people.
Third, I'm not a liberal.
And finally, fuck you again.
CobraJones 8 months ago 13
@CobraJones You are kindof a liberal.
LatumWay 8 months ago
@LatumWay Depends on what you mean by "liberal" I suppose.
the term has a lot of meanings. It has "classical liberal" (old style free market type), social liberal (lefty), neoliberal (new style free market type) etc. etc.
GB15 says that he disagrees with neoliberals in his video, so I think he's saying that CJ is a neoliberal, not that he's a left-winger.
Queekitch 8 months ago
Hate to be the fly in the ointment but if Gov. 'Good Hair' uses his own time and his own dime, then I don't really have a problem as a Secularist. Despite his position, he's still a private citizen. So I'm agreeing 100% here. I'm keeping my powder dry on this one. BTW, it's a cheesy ploy to pander to the Christian Right. The real irony is that 'Evil Leftie Secularist Scum (TM) squawking about it actually helps the charade.
HeavyTrafficAhead 8 months ago
pray for the prayers , sounds like a good title for a movie of some kind
jmm1233 8 months ago
He's using the power and celebrity of his office to push the event without which he would be getting no media attention.
He also called for "Fellow Governors" to join him.
I think it is very clear that he's crossed over the line of abusing his his power as governor to push a specific religious oriented event and endorsing groups that are habitually discriminatory all (likely) in the interest of pursuing a presidential primary bid.
TheTruePooka 8 months ago 12
@TheTruePooka The problem I have with that is it's essentially saying "Once you become governor, you're not allowed to talk about your religion." And I don't think that's right.
I will say that he's getting close to the line of separation, but so long as he doesn't use state resources, I don't have a problem with it (outside of "I think he's wasting his and a lot of people's time")
The moment he (or any of his fellow governors) spends a red cent on it though...then I'd have a problem with it.
CobraJones 8 months ago
(continued) and that would include using state transportation to get to the event. He will probably, by necessity, have guards with him, but that would happen even if he went to church. If he helicopters in, or has a huge parade or motorcade with him paid for by the taxpayer...yeah, then I'd be a bit more peeved.
CobraJones 8 months ago
@TheTruePooka Not to mention that he's in a position of power to actually do something but instead wants to start dismantling social programs (even the ones that help prevent/stop wildfires)
Christ724 8 months ago
@TheTruePooka
That would be true if the Governorship would be separated from the person the Governor is.
But if that was the case we also could not demand a Governor to step down from his office if he cheats on his wife with his 18 year old intern.
The point is that we expect celebrities to use their status to do good. The Governor believes that praying is a good thing, therefore asking people to pray is a good thing. Therefore I expect him to do so. Even as an atheist.
HiltownJoe 8 months ago
@TheTruePooka "using his power as governor to push a specific religious oriented event"
exactly, it's kinda fucking impossible for a governor to act in his capacity as a citizen, consider he is viewed as a governor first by most people. I could be wrong, but i don't think the issue of state resources that Cobra brought up is the only test. He's still promoting something religious through the government.
synchronium24 8 months ago
@TheTruePooka So what? Lot's of Americans ask the leadership to pray. He's an American citizen and as long as he isn't doing this through the governors office, what is the big deal? I am as much as an anti-theist as you, but I don't want to turn our country into an atheistic nation and am quite happy with a secular nation.
christo930 8 months ago
where does the 14th amendment speak of a separation of church and state?
migkillertwo 8 months ago
@migkillertwo Uhmm...it doesn't?
CobraJones 8 months ago
@CobraJones
well that's my point. The 1st amendment only says that Congress can make no law respecting the establishment of religion. But Rick Perry speaks for the state of texas, not the united states.
migkillertwo 8 months ago
@migkillertwo And that's where the argument over the degree of federalism kicks in. I personally think that anything that restricts the federal government should restrict state governments as well, but there is the argument that states aren't held to the same limits as the federal government. The latter view hasn't held much water since the Civil War, however.
CobraJones 8 months ago
@CobraJones
That's a very interesting interpretation of the constitution, but the 10th amendment says that powers not granted to the federal government are still reserved to individual states.
migkillertwo 8 months ago
@migkillertwo And by that argument, individual states have the right to imprison you for political speech, can take away your guns, can put you in prison for no reason, can have tribunals instead of trial by jury, etc. While that may be true in the technical sense, I certainly don't think it should be.
CobraJones 8 months ago
@CobraJones
If we were living in 1864, I would have begrudgingly agreed that States COULD do all those things. But we have a 14th amendment that protects our privileges and immunites and our right not to be deprived of life or liberty without due process.
migkillertwo 8 months ago
@migkillertwo So then the 14th amendment would apply to the separation of church and state applies to the states as well.
CobraJones 8 months ago
@migkillertwo Watch Rith's video response to Devchelle and he'll lay it out for you. The Cliff's Notes version is thus, many court decisions and amendments apply the Bill Of Rights to ALL governments in the United States.
HeavyTrafficAhead 8 months ago
@HeavyTrafficAhead
Thanks, but I know all about how the courts have tried to apply some of the bill of rights against the states, and I am still not convinced that the establishment clause applies to the states either. One would have to argue that the separation of church and state is somehow inherent in the concept of Liberty, or that one of your privileges and immunities is to live under a secular government.
This just isn't so. States had churches and public school prayer after 1865
migkillertwo 8 months ago
@migkillertwo The separation of church and state is inherent in the concept of liberty. Otherwise, the state can tell me who/how to worship. If, as a Baptist, I were forced by the government (state or federal) to attend Catholic Mass, how is that *not* a violation of my liberty? If the state of Utah makes Mormonism the official state religion, and I lived in Utah and was not a Mormon, the state of Utah would be infringing on my religious freedom.
CobraJones 8 months ago
@CobraJones One can still have the freedom to worship or not worship however one wants if there is an official state religion. In Israel, you have the right to be a Christian or Muslim but the official state religion is Judaism. Teaching creationism or giving churches tax exemptions does not violate your fundamental right to choose your religion. A state religion may lead to this down the road, but it itself does not infringe on your rights. Hence, it is not inherent to the concept of liberty.
migkillertwo 8 months ago
@migkillertwo So...just checking...religious liberty isn't inherent to the idea of liberty?
CobraJones 8 months ago
Are you refering in particular to The Amazing Atheist video. Because I think much of the criticism directed at Rick Perry isn't about his right or not do what he did, but more about the fact that he would rather waste his time in useless prayers than actually do something to change the state of his state and country. Thinking that a person should leave his religious beliefs behind when taking office is ridiculous, but criticizing them for not acting out of rationality is not.
meestryal 8 months ago
@meestryal It was partially inspired by that, but not aimed directly at that.
Although if he gets up in as big a rage as he did about that, I don't know how he hasn't had a heart attack after years of living in American culture.
CobraJones 8 months ago
@CobraJones He gets angry, that's part of his routine. I'm sure he wasn't that surprised, although probably facepalming. As long as his commentary are smart ones, it doesn't matter to me.
meestryal 8 months ago
Separation of Church and State is just part of the principle of Majority rules but with minority right's. The majority can worship any god they wish as long as they don't require anyone else to join them.
TheAtheistPaladin 8 months ago 2
Can we not consider Texas and other states like this part of the USA.
TheJohn864 8 months ago
He's just wasting everyone's time... Yay for him...
Oh and not solving any problems... which a real governor would do... that as well...
Lets all hope that god can do a better job then this douche bag can... which "he" wont...
The only thing this governor is solving is his own reelection.
Have fun Texas...
mrx0066600 8 months ago
heh heh. "state".
Anghellik9 8 months ago
I'm in Canada... I have no idea what the religion of our Prime Minster is. I assume he is some form of Christian since he is Conservative... Same goes for my MP (Member of Parilament)....
We just don't talk about religion of our politicians. They don't mention it in their campaigns, and is rarely brought up. I don't know what the religion of the leader of the official oposition (the NDP) or the Liberals...
If Rick Perry was in Canada, people would not take his religion touting very well.
MNICY 8 months ago 2
@MNICY Harper is very firmly Christian. Although, I think the fact that you aren't certain isn't exactly a bad thing.
Anghellik9 8 months ago
@MNICY You luckily bastard.
TheJohn864 8 months ago
This is exactly as I feel about it. I never understand how people expect politicians to leave their religious belief's behind when in office. That's not what separation of church and state means. Maybe I'd prefer there to be fewer religious politicians but, to be honest, religion isn't even an issue when i vote, even though some people seem to think it should be the main one.
enilenif 8 months ago