M7 Conference - Challenges to the Nazarene Denomination

[Bman201561]

I attended a Nazarene church for 9 years and was a local minister there. I respectfully disagree with lumping Calvinism in the same category as the Emergent Church. Calvinism still falls within the realm of orthodox Christian faith. Nazarenes may not agree with Reformed theology, but these are our brothers and sisters in Christ. We need to focus more on JESUS.

[terriergal]

OK I listened to the audio. This is a typical purpose driven vision casting sermon. I also listened to Oliver Phillips. What a train wreck. His involuntary noises and constant repetition were remeniscent of TBN style preachers. He laughed away the fact that he wasn't preaching from a text but was preaching his own words. Shameful. Completely shameful.

[terriergal]

Wonder if women pastors is one of those challenges...?

[LaneCh]

Apparently Calvinism is bigger challenge than female pastors. #fail

[ReformedEvangelist]

Is there somewhere we can listen to this entire talk? I'd really love to check it out!

[terriergal]

@ReformedEvangelist glutton for punishment aren't you?

:-)

[terriergal]

btw yes there is a link to the entire video in the description.

[Cashmoneyallstars]

I think the Naz church will be split in 10 years or less.

[beesully]

That was a short preach

[swillia9]

Just an FYI, but the Nazarene church this year is implementing programs to help reach those who suffer from HIV/Aids and help the poor and needy. One such program is partnership with World Vision to help battle hunger.

[GenevaPilgrim]

swil:I have no problem w/ any of these things but here's something the naz church might want to implement as well:SPIRITUAL TEACHING!  My church is spiritually dead! My pastor has resorted 2 feel good sermons a/b love, peace& happiness each Sunday & I haven't seen any spiritual growth in my church in yrs; in fact it's dwindling. Members R getting further from Christ & our membership is dwindling. I've chosen to stay as the salt & light to our congregation & to our pastor, but I'm getting weary.

[crimpsey]

Vrey angry rambling old leadership worried about the long term sustainability of her "company"...the nazarene church is the General motors of today...bankrupt, and target for contempt...she better scream a little louder...the Naz have problems...this former advisory board member is glad he's out...

[swillia9]

If I may to JimQualls commit of the scripture in 1 Timothy, you are taking that scripture out of context. When Paul was addressing Timothy in this letter he was discussing about the women Timothy had been ministering to on his behalf in which the women had tried to put themselves above men. In fact scripture tells us that there is "no difference between Jew or Gentle, male or female." In all actuality men and women are to be on the same level. Scripture does not exclude women from ministry!

[tonywitane]

I am so tired of denominational doctrine

church "leaders" who tell you that they have "no sin in their lives"

I left the nazarene church because it seemed that men were praised more than Jesus

We are all born into sin folks and I will be truly sanctified the day I meet my Savior

[GenevaPilgrim]

tony:I can agree w/ U on "men are praised more than Jesus" In my Naz church it seems like Rick Warren is quoted more than Jesus; we have studies on books by Rick Warren, our Sunday school classes have recently changed to "connection groups" we have connection groups all week long-we have the "aerobic connection group", "biker connection group" the "ladies Saturday-morning-walk connection group" etc. None of these include anything spiritual, but by-golly, people are connecting! (sarcasm intended)

[terriergal]

@GenevaPilgrim That's because Nazarenes are more about moralism than the gospel. Same with Rick Warren. He's right up their alley!

[Cashmoneyallstars]

Apparently the thousands of children that die everyday due to hunger, aids, sickness, and neglect aren't important enough to make the list... That sucks.

[mismindles]

Cash-You are so wrong! Did you hear her mention the Emergent Church? That movement among the Nazarenes is primarily concerned with just what you mentioned. In fact-solving the world's global problems such as HIV, poverty, global warming, etc-these are much more important than the message of Christ in the emerging church. SO don't worry your topic is covered! Never assume you know something until you research it. I'm not a fan of the EC movement but I'm a fan of helping the afflicted.

[Cashmoneyallstars]

I'm quite familiar with the Emergent Church and there are many aspects of it that I support... The call to embodying the gospel, serving the poor, loving the forgotten and neglected. How dare the Nazarene church actually model the samaritan and helped the beaten man left for dead. Why are people so afraid of a renewed call to embody our faith to the world? My goodness, last time I read the NT, Jesus got pretty creative and radical when it came to bringing the Kingdom of God here on earth.

[mismindles]

Cahs-I'm not sure what your beef with me here is? I agree that we need to help the afflicted. It's the "no absolute truth" and bringing in all the mysticism I have a problem with. Those things have nothing to do with helping the needy.

[Prof2You]

You need to really read up this. EC pastors have said, "there is no hell"...they have said, "heaven is not a place". They believe in a Buddist, esoteric theology that is plain and simple, heretical. I agree with you about helping the hurting, giving the cold glass of water to the needy. However I will never subscribe to EC doctrine. We must "test the spirits." I have, and they are not from God.

[johe64]

The better question is what Bible are YOU reading? Didn't you read the verses in my entry above? Are denominations more important than following what God's Word says? You seem to be held up with women carrying most of the responsibilities. I don't know what you are talking about. Women have very special functions in the Church, just not leadership. Man is the head of woman, as Christ is the head of the Church. What do you mean "jude and jury". Again, read what I wrote above.

[johe64]

As a current Nazarene, I agree with propitiation4u. As I read the Bible, I see more and more "Reformed" theology and less and less "Arminian" theology. Also, I can't understand our denomination's blindness to 1Tim. 2:12. She is the HEAD of our denomination. This should not be so.

[schs1977]

As a fourth generation Nazarene, when did GOD appoint His judge, jury and excutioner? Women have always had a very large part of the Nazarene church. We are one of the few church who will allow a women to preach. If this bothers you, LEAVE and find a church that does not allow a women to preach or teah me, but depends on women to do most any other job in the church.

[johe64]

I don't know what you mean by the first sentence. We are called to expose errant doctrine when we see it, not just sit idly by and let it continue. As I read the Bible more and more, I have seen this as a problem in the Nazarene Church. It doesn't matter how long it has been happening, it should stop. I may just leave.

[johe64]

(cont'd from above) Why do Nazarenes continue to allow women leaders? The truth stares us in the face: 1 Cor. 11:3 gives us the pattern God provided for headship. I used to think a woman pastor was fine, but then this verse started to bother me and as I read it in context and discovered along with 1 Tim. 2:12 put me over the edge on how I viewed this issue. It has been VERY difficult for me. I am sorry if it offends anyone...just how I see it in the Bible.

[schs1977]

What Bible are you reading? Where does it say a women should not be a "preacher". If you are a Nazarene, you are mislead and you should leave and join a church where women are not allowed to preach. It is amazing that most churches no matter the demoninations are only in existance because women carry most of the responsibilities, but are never given the opportunity to preach. Again, when did God appoint yous His jude and jury?

[JimQualls]

1 Tim 2:12

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

KJV

Eph 4:11

...and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (pastor/teacher the same office by the construction of the sentence)

KJV

These verse do NOT exclude a woman from certain things in the church but they DO exclude a woman from being a pastor..

[propitiation4you]

Speaking as a former Nazarene, Reformed theology is the BEST thing that could happen to the Nazarene denomination.

[wesleywts]

Probably you were never truly a Nazarene to begin with. ;)

[wesleywts]

Probably you were never truly a Nazarene to begin with. ;)

[schs1977]

I agree with "wesleywts" You were probably never a truse Nazarene.

[RoyIngle]

I support her 100% simply for pointing this out!

[BoaNoite527]

it makes me sad to think THIS is the lasting memory of the M7 conference. not a bright moment in the life of our church.

[choubc12]

well we can view it as a stepping stone towards what we hope we can see change in our church.

[simonnewtboy]

UGh Modernity is so obnoxious.

[Jared104]

Well, I am a Calvinist and I affirm reformed theology (which is the same thing by the way). So, I like two of the three.

[KnowWhatIsTrue]

Emergent and Reformed are complete opposites!?!?

[choubc12]

yes and both 'extremes' need to be addressed. I think that is one of her points.

[PantheistBoots]

Also, you are again correct about the joy that should come from genuine worship. However, I would not equate joy with fun. Fun/boring are terms of pleasure, while true happiness/joy (beatis in Latin) is the fulfillment of our desire for God. Kant reduces happiness to subjective pleasure. Plato/Augustine/Aquinas maintain happiness (eudaemonia in Greek) as attainment of the highest Good, which we know is God.

[CurlyDeb86]

my mom was a nazerene pastor until she went to treveca to work on her masters degree. she converted to catholicism and left my dad to become a nun. they did not accept her and now me and my brother live with my dad. i went to church with her once, but i dont get it. it was boring.

[PantheistBoots]

Is that a joke? If your mom really did leave your dad to become a nun, she probably had trouble because she left her family. The Catholic Church (as opposed to Catholics like the Kennedy's) seems to be the only one that takes marriage vows seriously. There is no room for reinterpreting the family. Sorry for the bore, but if you are looking for fun then stay with the CON.

[aVisionaryMystic]

Pantheist, you've had some excellent posts in the past. This one falls somewhat short of the standard you have set for yourself. I think you minced your words. Take out "seems to be" and insert "is". I think that is what you really believe. And, I think that is incorrect.

[aVisionaryMystic]

con't to Pantheist: By the way, Jesus reinterpreted family. Regarding "fun": you make it sound pejorative. It is possible for fun to be a part of even the most deeply authentic Christian worship experience. Avoiding fun is disingenuous. Why do we assemble for mass and/or worship? To CELEBRATE the RESURRECTION. That should be the most joy-filled and fun time of the week.

[PantheistBoots]

You are correct that the Catholic Church takes marriage most seriously, by virtue of maintaining its sacramental nature. I was trying to leave open some room for other traditions who take their vows seriously as well. Marriage is a sacrament that is not dependent on an ordained priest, and therefore it is possible for non-Catholic sacramental marriages.

[aVisionaryMystic]

CurlyDeb, I am sorry to hear for your loss. I am sure that was painful. It is understandable that you wouldn't "get it". There are many things going on during mass that, unless previously instructed, would make little sense. I trust all is well now. If not, feel free to send me a message on here.

[TNUmusician]

That reminded me of something we discussed at TNU in our religion classes. Once we realized that the Manual teaches we accept the councils of the early church, some of us decided to see what that meant we believed as Nazarenes. Imagine our surprise in the teachings about Mary as the Mother of God and not simply the Mother of Christ. Some of us even started praying the rosary. We got in trouble, though.

[PantheistBoots]

Excuse my spelling error. I meant "dealt" as in confronted the situation, and not "delt" as in plural for deltoid. Also, since I am truly concerned about your faith and not just trying to be a smartass, revisit the Council of Ephesus for better understanding. This is not a Marian issue; it is a Christ issue.

[PantheistBoots]

That would be Nestorianism, and it is a heresy. We delt with you 1500 years ago. You lost.

[LoveThyNeighbor7]

I do not think j0shburn's comment precludes Mary from being construed as "Theotokos". Be careful what you consider heresy. Besides, that heresy went on to evangelize India and China before "you" reached England. So Nestorians hardly "lost". And it does sound like you are trying to be a "smartass".

[j0shburn]

to everyone. if you make mary as your heavenly mother you are just trying to say that the the Heavenly Father is her husband and Jesus is there Son which is absolutely wrong. mary is only the earthly mother of Jesus and was only used by God to fulfill his plans just as he use us to preach the gospel to finish the works of Jesus here on earth.

[PantheistBoots]

From learning about the Deuterocanonical Books (called "Apocryphal" by sloppy Bible scholars) in Introduction to the Bible, to learning about the sacraments in Church Tradition, and most especially from the in-depth studies of Pelgianism, my Trevecca years were very formative. I am encouraged by the Catholic direction the school has taken in more recent years.

[PantheistBoots]

It is true; Trevecca is represented well here. I probably would never be in a Catholic seminary now if it were not for my time at Trevecca.

[PantheistBoots]

Mary is a great gift that God has given us, and she has been an integral part of the Church ever since the apostolic times. Only a fool who does not believe in the power of prayer or the resurrection of the dead would dare to suggest that Mary's prayers are meaningless. We do have access to God through our prayers, as does Mary. However, she knows God's will better than we, which makes her intercessions more pure than our own.

[j0shburn]

im not really againts mary, but JESUS knows God's will better than mary. Let us always remember that there is only one mediator between God and man and that is Jesus Christ. if we have problems, desires or burdens... JESUS said "come to Me". He did not said "come to mary".

[PantheistBoots]

Going way back a few posts, I actually do spend time doing good works for the "least of these." I am in the seminary, and we have to spend our Mondays doing apostolic work. This semester, we are visiting the sick in their homes and hospitals, and we are teaching children's religious education.

[PantheistBoots]

In a way, I am the ultimate Emergent Christian, for I have a combination of Evangelical holiness theology with Catholic social theology, while not belonging to a denomination! But, I'll leave the deconstruction to the atheists and madmen.

[TNUNazarene]

J0shburn - Do you not ask your friends and loved ones to pray for you? Intercessory prayer? I am sure you believe in it, I know the CON does. The point I am making is that catholic's believe (I do as well) if you are going to pray an intercessory prayer then why not pray it the Holy Mother God? Obviously, this a very simplistic answer to your question, however that was my intention.

I find it interesting that just by the comments I can point out who is a Trevecca grad/student and who is not.

[holymarypray4us]

I'll ask you a question. Why not?

Do you think Jesus ever asked his mother to pray for him? I know I ask my earthly mother often to pray for me. How much more would it make sense to ask my heavenly mother to pray as well. She knows her son more than any human ever has. We can never love Mary more than Jesus did.

[j0shburn]

is there such thing as heavenly mother? did mary came from heaven and went to down to earth? Jesus never said to us that mary is our heavenly mother, even JESUS himself did not called her mother while He was hung on the cross but instead he used the word "woman". mary is the earthly mother of Jesus and cannot be our mother.

[j0shburn]

TNUNazarene- yes of course I always aks my friends and love ones to pray for me but they dont pray to mary, they pray to Jesus to ask His Holy Spirit to mend me, comfort me, protect me and heal me whenever I am spiritually down and helpless. they come to Jesus and not to mary.

[j0shburn]

ei. are you trying to say that outside the catholic church there is no salvation? let me remind you that a church is not a building itslef, it is a body of believers. a person can be in any church and be saved, that if he love the Lord with all his heart, mind, soul and strength and follow what God had commanded him. thats all, no more no less. dont try claim that only the catholics will be saved.^_^

[holymarypray4us]

I am not trying to say that, I am saying that. Jesus Christ prayed to the Father that the Church be one. God created one man and one woman. There is one God and one people of God. So also is there one Christ and one Bride, the Church. If one is baptized under a Trinitarian formula (in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) then by virtue of their baptism, that person is Catholic. Yes it's true we are to love God totally.

[holymarypray4us]

cont.-And what did Christ say? If you love me, then keep my commandments. One of those commandments was go into all the nations baptizing in the name of the father son and holy spirit. Another one of those was what God has joined let no man put asunder and another was receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and if you forgive the sins of anyone on earth they will be forgiven in heaven, if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven. John 20

[holymarypray4us]

the first commandment i wrote about was mt. 28:19 and the marriage reference is mt.19:6 and mk 10:9.

[j0shburn]

yeah your right that If one is baptized under a Trinitarian formula then by virtue of their baptism, that person is Catholic but not a Roman Catholic. i think thats the big difference there.

[holymarypray4us]

Actually that is true, there is no such thing as a Roman Catholic, it would imply that in only Rome the Apostolic Church exists and disregards the Church in the east. I'm only picking at the semantics for your education. Roman Catholic (and many Catholics don't know this either) is a derogatory term coined in England at the time of the Anglican reformation.

[holymarypray4us]

cont. So when a Catholic says I am a Roman Catholic, tell them to stop insulting themselves. A Roman Rite Catholic is the only title appropriate and is used only when speaking of which liturgy you participate in. So, that person is Catholic, in other words in full communion with the Bishop of Rome, who is baptized under a Trinitarian formula, they don't break communion until they commit sin(whatever that particular sin may be including joining religious sects)

[j0shburn]

pointless.^_^

[holymarypray4us]

howso?

[TNUmusician]

You know, that is exactly what we are learning now at TNU. And I think it is the same point Nina is trying to make. As Nazarenes, we profess to belong to the Catholic Church and are trying to figure out how to be Nazarenes in communion with Rome, with the Holy Father. At least, that is what our religion department says.

[j0shburn]

ei can i ask u something, its about your name. holymarypray4us??? why is that? can't you pray for urself directly to God, why ask mary? ^_^

[j0shburn]

can you please stop these poinltess arguments. yes, i mean all of you. where's the love here? is this how the grace of God that you have recieve reflects? stop throwing stones with each other or with each denomination. no denomination can save us here, only JESUS can, and all of you know that. but please respect each denomination, stop criticizing each other. everyone will get what they deserve in the final judgement. see ya all in heaven.!!!

[holymarypray4us]

as much as folks would like to believe that statement of "only Jesus" i would like to point out that the Church is Christ's bride and since the two are one, you must remember that one is saved by the grace that flows from Christ through the Church and yes, it is very true that no denomination can save anyone that's why Catholics never claim to be a denomination, only the Church founded by Jesus on his Apostles.

[holymarypray4us]

Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church-St. Ignatius of Antioch (Successor of Peter)

[TNUmusician]

I'm not getting into a good works competition. I know the Emergent Movement emphasizes social work in order to compensate for the lack of it in many Evangelical churches. I know what the Bible says and what the CON teaches about holy discipleship. And I obey to the best of my ability as God's grace allows. I also know how the Bible defines marriage...

[aVisionaryMystic]

TNUmusician: ". . . a good works competition." Um, I only asked if people were honestly doing what Jesus taught: feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and those in prision, taking care of the widows and orphans. Maybe you should accuse Jesus of leading a "good works competition". (smile)

[GenXNazarenes]

The issue with Emergent (although there are very good things about the movement) I think is the tendency of a more "pluralistic" understanding of Christianity, which is very dangerous, and is why I think many are concerned about what the movement brings to the table.

[tool2scream05]

excellent statement. I think our Church is doing a great job of trying to get back to real holiness preaching and a GOOD understanding of Entire Sanctification. I think Nina said it well when she said "challenge" and not "danger." The Emerging Church is a CHALLENGE we must deal with. We must use the TRUTHS it brings to the table to aid our Holiness message, all the while remaining distinct. We must also not be led astray by false ideas. I like the direction the General Church is moving!

[GenXNazarenes]

. But I think the reason the CON (represented in Dr. Gunter's challenge) believes it is important to maintain our "distinction" is because of how important the CON believes the message of holiness is in our world (not just in our church). And to be honest of holiness churches the reality is that that message is not being preached.

[GenXNazarenes]

Are there things you think we are doing wrong? If so, what are they? If you aren't in line with the CON why are you an ordained minister in the CON? There is a battle against "denominationalism", because of the division people think it has caused in the Church as a whole, and of course for countless other reasons

[GenXNazarenes]

avisionarymystic - I know we have very different views on all of this but I appreciate the discussion. There are things I am definitely concerned about regarding the direction of the CON...but it is more a concern about the preaching of the holiness message. I don't think you are the kind of pastor who discourages the preaching of the holiness message so what are your real issues regarding the church?

[aVisionaryMystic]

GenXNazarenes: I preach holiness and desire to live a holy life. My "real issues regarding the church?" I don't have any "real issues". There are those who do have "real issues" with me. (smile) I do think that emphsizing distinctions over commonalities is a distraction. We should all try to out love one another. Love = acting in another's best interest.

[nancynazarene]

all of you need to stop this bickering, the bible speaks about vain arguments and idle chatter.

[holymarypray4us]

Kudos for wanting to be like Jesus, but one thing I must remind you, we Catholics keep the corpus on the cross for a reason, because that's what he really calls us to. Christ without his cross is lucky charms without the marshmallows.

Cheerio! and God's peace.

Why not check out the Catholic Church, you won't be purchasing property out of pocket with us.

[aVisionaryMystic]

HolyMary, I know I wouldn't be purchasing property out of pocket with you. Alas, I am happily married - and plan on remaining so. (smile)

[holymarypray4us]

As for feeding the hungry, not literally (at least this weekend), but maybe hungry souls. I have never turned down anyone who begs (homeless or others) to a meal if I had the means to feed them. All I'm trying to say is that if you walked into a store and bought a box of lucky charms (they're magically delicious) and opened it up to find cheerios when you got home, you would probably begin to deconstruct General Mills a little bit wouldn't you?

[ohiodarlin]

"They're magically delicious" -- you got a huge gaffaw out of me!

[holymarypray4us]

I suppose it would be appropriate to use decon against decon. It would make Friedrich proud. Nevertheless, I believe a small measure of it in the Church is healthy, but so that we can all be on the same page we have to call a spade a spade. (I'm quoting African Francis Cardinal Arinze)

[aVisionaryMystic]

One last question for the night. This goes out to the philosophers among us: Is it appropriate to use deconstructive philosophy to argue against deconstructive philosophy? I suppose it is. But, only if you are wanting to prove it's worth. Blessings to you all. I love the conversation here. Peace.

[aVisionaryMystic]

So here is a question for those of you taking shots at me before you have even gotten to know me: have you fed the hungry this week? have you clothed the naked? have you ministered to the sick and imprisioned? or, have you cared for the widow and orphan? I don't mean metaphorically, or through your cash donations so someone else can do it. I mean, have you obeyed Jesus' teachings?

[aVisionaryMystic]

Musician, actually, we take Jesus' words on how to live in the world very seriously in our little community. We certainly wouldn't be confused with the unitarians. (smile) We are accepting of others. We preach the gospel. Lives are transformed. I think my comments represent the Nazarene denomination quite well - both here, on the web and in life. I am sorry you disagree. I just want to love Jesus and be/do like him.

[aVisionaryMystic]

Yes, Musician, I am an ordained elder in this beautiful denomination we call Nazarene. ". . . the purpose of your Emergency." Please help me understand what you mean by that. "Just wondering if you are using the Nazarene denomination . . . ." I wish you could know our story. The only property was purchased by my wife and I. We pay all of our budgets. I draw little to no salary. Many of my Nazarene friends encourage me to leave it because of the lack of suppport. (smile)

[TNUmusician]

Pastor Sean, are you a Nazarene? Your comments here as well as your website do not resemble anything Nazarene. No doubt that is the purpose of your Emergency. According to your website, your Jesus makes no demands on anyone. Even the family is left undefined (and unjudged. Are you in a gay community?). Just wondering if you are using the Nazarene denomination for a property and buildings for your new religion (it's been done before by the way, called Unitarianism).

[PantheistBoots]

holymarypray4us, you are correct about the deconstructionist philosophy of the Emergent movement. That was the same conclusion I came to in my term paper. Individual Emergent groups disagree on what to believe, but they all agree that Christian Tradition needs to be fixed or disgarded. It is nothing new and has been going on for 500 years, but now it is like a new reformation of the Reformation. Neo-protestants protesting Protestantism. I'll stick with the Church built on a Rock.

[holymarypray4us]

and the gates of hell will not prevail against it (or nietzsche) and the keys to the kingdom belong to Peter.

[PantheistBoots]

When I was a student at TNU, I wrote my term paper for a ministerial class on the Emergent movement. I am familiar with McLaren and have no desire to read him. Nor do I expect you to read the Holy Father; I simply wanted to agree with TNUmusician's statement that not all Christians speak about the same Christ. You can find out about the Catholic Christ through "Jesus of Nazareth."

[aVisionaryMystic]

HolyMary, we disagree. I am ok with that. McLaren explains what he means by "secret message" in his book. It isn't what you think - Gnostic. But, I'm not here to defend McLaren or anyone else. I am just here to encourage dialog. I wish people could see that there are greater dangers to Christianity than "Emergent". Not loving (acting in the best interest of) others comes to mind.

[holymarypray4us]

it may not be "gnostic" but it is a deconstructionist method, which tries to rethink 2000 years of what Christ's followers have already thought. sometimes it is in the best interest of others to let them know the path they are on leads or could lead to destruction (or in this case, deconstruction)

[aVisionaryMystic]

Actually HolyMary, in this particular book he acknowledges the historical and theological importance of our traditions that have helped us arrive where we are at. If by "deconstruction" you mean thinking about who we are in Christ and how he taught us to live - and then applying it to our lives. Then yes, it is deconstructionist. As an aside, why do you fear deconstructionist method?

[aVisionaryMystic]

Pantheist, thanks for your posts. If I read the Holy Father's "Jesus of Nazareth" will you read Brian McLaren's "The Secret Message of Jesus"? (If you haven't already.) I am not sure Christ would recognize the institutions we now have as "his church". I think he would wonder why the "church" looks so much like the kingdoms of men he came to replace with the Kingdom of God.

[nancynazarene]

Pantheist, why do you even care about our holiness tradition? I'll read Jesus of Nazareth when you read the 1960s edition of Why I Am a Nazarene and the hymn Holiness Unto the Lord.

[holymarypray4us]

Hey, I was searching some emergent church stuff for a paper I'm assigned and found this debate, I would like to answer some of your questions because I'm Catholic. Visionary, McLaren's books are as off-center as they come these days. His book "A Generous Orthodoxy" is a work of ambiguity. Orthodoxy is not generous in the way he makes it out to be.

[holymarypray4us]

If you want to read a book on Orthodoxy then pick up G.K. Chesterton's work Orthodoxy. He was an Anglican and was responsible for C.S. Lewis becoming a Christian.

[holymarypray4us]

As for "The Secret Message of Jesus," are you kidding me? Jesus Christ breathed on his Church the Holy Spirit and nowhere did He say that the Spirit would leave it. To say he had a "Secret Message," well, we call that Gnosticism and it gets placed in the fiction section next to the DaVinci Code. If you want authentic Christianity, look no further than Mary and the Apostles, I'm sure they had a better grip on it than Mr. McLaren ever dreamed of.

[holymarypray4us]

As for Dr. Nina Gunter, (what is a General Superintendant?) she speaks truth when she talks of Calvinism invading the minds of students and she also speaks truth of the Emerging Church as a threat to Christianity.

[PantheistBoots]

I highly recommend reading the Pope's new book, "Jesus of Nazareth," for a refreshing picture of the Christ of the Gospels. To answer the quote of the popular religion professor (was that S.H.?), the Pope's "Jesus of Nazareth" is the Christ of the Catholic Church.

[PantheistBoots]

However, when I compared the early communities of the apostles as expressed in the Bible as well as by the Church Fathers, I found authoritative hierarchy and sacraments, not isolated communities. I sympathize with those seeking an organic and authentic expression of Christ, but I do not agree that Christ can be seperated from the Catholic Church He instituted.

[PantheistBoots]

I am somewhat familiar with the Emergent Church movement. When I went to TNU a few years ago, it was pretty popular. I would say that my conversion experience was based on the same seeking of an authentic expression of Christ's Church.

[PantheistBoots]

That is funny! I was directed to this video by a friend, and now I see why. I am a Catholic who was raised Nazarene, and I most definately would attribute my conversion experience to two aspects of Catholicism: transubstantiation and the authority of the Pope.

[TNUmusician]

As for my views on who we should allow to be Nazarene, I would like to quote a very popular TNU religion professor: "Not all Christians believe in the same Jesus. When talking about Jesus, it is important to identify which one we are talking about." I think he would agree with Nina, and I cannot wait to ask him if he does.

[TNUmusician]

Actually, I am very good friends with a couple of recent Catholic converts, and I would say it IS the authenticity of the Pope that explains their conversion. Of course, I cannot speak for them; find one and ask him/her yourself (they are plentiful these days).

[aVisionaryMystic]

Also, the reasons Nazarenes leave the denomination are vast and varied. Few who become Catholic would attribute their attrition soley to the authenticity of the Holy Father's hermeneutic and theology.

[aVisionaryMystic]

"There is no room in the Nazarene Church for Calvin, Reformed, or Emergence" -- dangerous comments. If all are not welcomed then we are not the church. By the way, these three groups are CHRISTIAN. So, you are saying that some elements of CHRISTIANITY are not welcome in the Nazarene Church. Makes me wonder how the sinners would fair.

[TNUmusician]

You go, Nina! Right on, right on! Finally, some church leaders are being honest about what we believe. There is no room in the Nazarene Church for Calvin, Reformed, or Emergence. Look at all the people up here at TNU who keep leaving to become Catholic, simply because their pope is not afraid to say what they believe. It is time our "popes" did the same.

[stefphro]

My question is why you would choose to re-post this clip when you knew that it was offensive to certain people. I was at the conference and found it incredibly offensive of Dr. Gunter to stand in front of the entire convention and take shots at our Christian brothers and sisters when there were members of at least 2 of the groups in the audience after having been invited by the church to speak at the convention. It was petty and there was nothing at all "Christian" about it.

[aVisionaryMystic]

To the right of the video there is information section about the video. One line says "Dr. Nina Gunter, General Superintende... (more)" Please click the "more" link. In that I provide the link to Nina's full presentation. I will attempt to post my full text in here. But, it may be truncated.

[TNUNazarene]

Spell correction from previous post:

I am interested to hear Dr. Gunter's whole sermon. 45 seconds really does not give her justice. I would ask VisionaryMystic if the end bullets were on the screen at the coference or edited there by you. To give opinions on 45 seconds of 30-45 minute sermon is just like taking one verse out of scripture and basing your* whole life or theology on it.

[TNUNazarene]

I am interested to hear Dr. Gunter's whole sermon. 45 seconds really does not give her justice. I would as VisionaryMystic if the end bullets were on the screen at the coference or edited by you. To give opinions on 45 seconds of 30-45 minute sermon is just like taking one verse out of scripture and basing you're whole life or theology on it.

[aVisionaryMystic]

This is not a generational issue. It is a world-view issue. There are moderns of all ages and there are postmoderns of all ages. Modernity and Postmodernity are simply world-views. There are Christians who are modern, Christians who are postmodern, and Christians in just about every other world-view. Holiness and our distictives can be contextualized to them all.

[GenXNazarenes]

TNUNazarene and others interested in this conversation...we should talk about this...I think it's important that the church knows there is a young generation who believes wholeheartedly in the message of holiness and entire sanctification. Right now it is a generational issue...our generation, I think, will determine which direction the church will take...Dr. Gunter's concern is real and we should step up to the plate (and as you said not be intimidated)...

[TNUNazarene]

I totally agree with GenXNaz. All young Nazarene and especially those who have graduated from Nazarene universities should come together and not be intimidated to preach and practice our theology.

As far as being "relevant" to our culture. It is my understanding that the early church was always "counter-culture" Just read Luke-Acts. So if the "emergant church" is trying to get back to how things were then. Well, I believe they are going backwards.

[TNUNazarene]

As far as the Board of GS making a statement, I believe it will sound something like this clip.

[TNUNazarene]

If you don't think Calvinism is a threat to our denomination then you may need to go back and read what it means to believe in the Weslyan/Armenian Faith. You are correct there is alot of junk going on in this world but we need to know who we are before we can help others. If not it may result in the blind leading the blind.

By the way, Dr. Gunter was in over 100 countries this past year so I hardly think she has beeb couped up at HQ.

[GenXNazarenes]

I agree with you wholeheartedly and thank you for your comment. It is especially hard for young Nazarenes right now because the trendy or hip thing to be is emergent or non-denominational. I don't have any problem finding ways to be relevant in our culture today but at what cost? The holiness message in the CON is distinct (in fact it is something that largely differs from Calvinist churches - since we're on that subject).

[GenXNazarenes]

(I had to cut and past, too many "characters")

As far as I'm concerned I agree with Dr. Gunter, these are serious issues, and I'm in my twenties so you know it's not only the "old timers" who are concerned about this. We should get a conversation going...young nazarenes committed to the message of holiness and to the church and believing we can still be relevant without jumping on the latest bandwagon or top selling postmodern pluralistic author

[revdavepett]

The previous evening's plenary session dealt with the positive things happening in the Kingdom through the emergent movement. Reggie McDonald was the speaker.

[revdavepett]

I was present in this service. I must admit I did a double take when Dr. Gunter said this. I agree that it is important to have a clear understanding of what dish we as Nazarenes bring to the theological potluck. I think the greatest challenge facing the COtN is the same one facing every Christian denomination - increasing irrelevancy. We're the band playing in the background while the Titanic sinks.

[okiedokiekev]

You've got to be kidding me? With ALL that is going on in this world to truly challenge people of Christian faith, the most dangerous things she can come up with are CALVINISM and the EMERGING CHURCH? It's sad to see how out-of-touch people can be when they spend too much time at a denominational headquarters writing about faith and not enough time out where people actually live their faith.

[foyelkan]

honestly, if THIS is the Nazarene church's biggest problem right now, then we either have our priorities wrong or somethign happened in the last year that I'm not aware of and things must be absolutely FANTASTIC.

[bowerschick]

Isn't there a nazarene church and a non denom. church that are joining to form an emergent community? It's made some waves if I remember correctly...Anyway, I disagree with her, and I am Nazarene.

[benlee33]

This sermon should open our eyes that not everybody in our diverse denomination sees everything the same. While our denomination has many different voices, I do believe we share a common passion and love for our Church. That being said, I would be very interested in hearing Dr. Gunter elaborate more on this subject. Does anybody know if she or the General Superintendents have released any explanatory statements?

[aVisionaryMystic]

Ben, thank you so much for your comments. I agree that we have many different voices. The postmoderns / emergent / emerging church is simiply one of the many multiple cultures within the denominational tapestry. Once we get that figured out, things should settle down. <smile> The denominational leaders are forming their response. I am sure we will have some explanatory statements by Friday evening.