i know he is true... well.. ijust said the thing earlier because some may ask what if my God is not true... i can't persuade them to believe me so that'll be my answer... i know and sure that my God is alive and is true
That's an interesting take. I mean the historical perspective. I think its more personal than that. That the point of the story not about why bad things happen, but how to cope with them and how to help those who are coping with them. I think what the story expresses, that one must let go of the "why me", accept the fate that the universe dealt him to find peace. But we must come to that on our own. Friends teaching/judging/advising Job didn't ease his suffering. They failed to care for him.
Many of the stories in the Bible and the Bible itself is not complete but why would u say it was written to NOT be complete? What would the intention be there? And if good, righteous people get diseases and suffer and, apparently, are PUNISHED by God for nothing more than to prove something to Satan then WHY WORSHIP THAT? That's tyranny!
@julzabro well, God uses punishment to discipline us. He shows the way, but it is upto you if you follow it. i don`t care what you do in life its yours.. do your own thing... well, for me... i choose to follow God because i know i will get his promises not just afterlife but i can receive it now... angels are not supposed to have freewill? how can you say so?
@venci27 Following God in order 2 get the promises is not the same as following God cuz u believe He is right and moral. If u do good 4 a reward, it's not doing good 4 goodness sake...it's simply wanting a prize or 2 b on the winning team. What promises do u suppose u get in THIS life 4 following God? Angels r messengers of God and were created solely 4 that purpose. We were the 1st creation 2 have freewill. It is said that the angels, namely Satan, were jealous of us cuz we had freewill.
Why was Job...a righteous man....put through this trial BY God when freewill and the creation BY GOD of evil was for the purpose of making us righteous? This is NOT loving nor merciful nor even just! Furthermore, why BE righteous is it doesn't protect u from this? If Job was righteous, why did HE need to be tested?
Why is there poverty in the world? Why do people get stricken with uncurable diseases? Mankind is naturally evil and dark. God tested Job because He KNEW that Job would not turn away from Him despite losing all of his earthly possessions. If you recall, we are to store our treasures in Heaven, not our treasures on Earth.
@Rawk4Life "Mankind is naturally evil and dark." is exactly what religion wants you to think. SO, let me get this straight. This supposed LOVING god who allows His creation 2 live in a fallen world 4 the SOLE purpose of FREEWILL which allows us 2 CHOOSE and, there4, allows opportunity 4 righteousness decides 2 take JOB, an ALREADY RIGHTEOUS man, and STRIP him of all that he has INCLUDING his children becuz JOB was a good bet? SO that's OK 2 u?
@Rawk4Life Job WAS righteous and needed no lesson about storing treasure! And THAT has NOTHING to do with the point here! If a parent were to say..."Ya know my really well behaved, good son really loves me but I bet if I were to put him out in the street with nothing he'd STILL love me."....would you think that was a good, loving parent or a sick, arrogant, prick?!?!?
Did you read later on in the book of Job where God blessed him more than double of what he had lost? In other words, if he trust God in times of trial and tribulation, He will look upon us with favor and bless us for it. Of course you wouldn't acknowledge this because you're too busy accusing God of being unmerciful and cruel.
@Rawk4Life Actually, I HAVE read that part of Job as well as the whole Bible many, many times and, maybe you're not a parent, but killing a person's children and giving them replacements is NOT in ANY WAY ACCEPTABLE! And, replacing or giving twice after causing UNDUE pain n suffering is immoral AND out of character w/ the earthly possesion crap u were spewing!
@Rawk4Life I know its easier 4 u to assume that I missed something or purposely left something out rather than actually considering the IMMORALITY of ur god but, sadly, that IS the reality!
@Rawk4Life Also, what kind of justice was this 4 Job's kids? How does that sit with you knowing that no matter how righteous you are that EVEN your kids r vulnerable to ur god's attacks? Doesn't seem worthy to me cuz that is NOT love NOR is that a king I would or ever COULD respect!
@Rawk4Life- Hey Raw thanks for the comments but I think in real life you don't get everything back two fold, And the promises you claim in your statement are not true in life. In real life calamities happen to the just and unjust alike. That is why I believe both the intro and endings were later tack ons.
@julzabro humans have shortcomings ryt? we sometimes fail. NOt all humans will remain righteous before the Lord... in Job's story, that is what God is testing him on.. his FAITHFULNESS. i like the story of Job because he is a proof that even in the midst of trials, someone can still remain righteous. also, God did not create evil, everything He created is good... "evil exists because of the absence of goodness". God allows us to co-exist with evil to test us(just like job).read matthew 13:24-30
@venci27 Job WAS faithful, so y test him? U say "in the midst of trials" as if these trials just happened as if 2 deny that this was god causing and allowing trials 2 happen 2 an ALREADY faithful servant! Of course, humans have flaws! 1 would think that a god, thee creator, would know that and not test/punish DUE 2 flaws HE KNOWS we have! Yes, this says A LOT about Job/humans but also the lack of logic and mercy of this god! If God exists and God is good, whence cometh evil?
@julzabro Job is being tested if he WILL BE faithful UNTILL THE END... "if God exists and God is good, whence cometh evil?" how would you know something is evil if you don't know what is good.... God created all things good and man he created perfect. when sin entered the world, man had the "flaws". God thought of this so He sent His son to die on the cross for us to be blameless again. whence cometh evil? know who satan was and is now. he was an angel who rebelled against God...
@venci27 In real life some do not get everything back. The Just suffer as the wicked. You make it sound that after the earthquakes in Haiti and Japan only believer's houses and Churches we left standing. But we all know that was not the case. The answer might be like Plato states in Gorgias " next best thing to a man being just is that he should become just, and be chastised and punished; also that he should avoid all flattery of himself as well as of others".
@wayman29 I would never suggest that only believers r left standing after an earthquake, but those who actually blieve in a so called merciful god say they must've deserved it. A belief that suggests that only we who blieve r saved/righteous is by no means avoiding flattery, in fact, it's VERY arrogant! Succombing 2 an illogical myth that is KNOWN 4 brainwashing the masses as a means of control is not noble but sadistic. Anything that attempts 2 tear away at 1's self esteem should b questioned.
@julzabro - " Anything that attempts 2 tear away at 1's self esteem should b questioned." Then you would question Paul's teachings and righteousness it's self. The whole of Christianity destroys the self inorder for it to be "Born Again" . Once more it is far better, as Job showed, to suffer injustice then to commit injustice.
@wayman29 The idea of righteousness for Paul had much to do with his religious beliefs. Strangely, Paul was far more righteous than the god he worshipped. Paul was far more impartial. What I see is that supposed sinful humans understand righteousness better than the gods we've concocted. It wasn't Job's idea to "suffer" and it was his faith...his commitment...that kept him from denouncing this god. Denouncing the god would not have been an "injustice" but rather a relentment from his commitment.
@wayman29 I would question Paul's righteousness being attributed 2 his god. Paul was MORE righteous than his god since his god didn't always show the same mercy. Job showed that HIS god will do as He pleases and Job knew/understood that. Job did not, like most Xtians, DEthrone his god in order to continue worshipping Him...as his friends did. Again, who does this story say more about...Job who took a beating as many will or a so called merciful god doing the beating?
@wayman29 well, the good and the bad would suffer too... if you read the bible, we, believers had been told what will happen... we will suffer too... yeah, in real life... some do not get everything back... some of us are killed don't you know that because of our faith... i am lucky i am in a tolerant country. we know our rewards will be greater in heaven... "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal." matthew 6: 19
@venci27 Wouldn't God already know the depths of Job's righteousness? If ur dog is loyal 2 u, should u start kicking him 2 see if he'll REMAIN loyal? According 2 the Bible, He did NOT create man good, we r all born sinners. How does sin just enter the world? If you insist that God didn't create it nor causes it, WHERE did it come from and how is it that it got passed God? Do u REALLY suppose an angel could rebel and do u REALLY think his rebelling wasn't part of God's plan?
@julzabro omg! don't quote "according to the bible" if you don't know the bible... man was created good from the very start(genesis 1:31).. how did sin enter ... "disobedience because of free will"... READ the bible so you would know the Story of the fall of man!!!! why did God put the tree and fruit there? TESTING!!! God doesn't control our will. Don't compare man to a Dog... we are far more intelligent than they are...
@venci27 When did I misquote the Bible? Do u suppose that God didn't know the outcome of the test ahead of time? We are all born sinners due to Adam's transgression. Rom 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. I've read the Bible many times and I don't think I ever compared God to a dog but merely compared His lack of morals to those of His servants.
@julzabro " We are all born sinners due to Adam's transgression." I can believe this theology to be correct simply due to the text "Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." I would believe Ezekiel over Paul.
@wayman29 U can't believe a Doctrine written by He who is on trial can u? Nonetheless, I understand that we bcame sinners due Adam's sin....that's not the point tho. The point is we were created 2 fail so that God could b the hero or the only way out and I don't c that as being fair, honest nor merciful. I c it as manipulation. Once Jesus was crucified the Law was fullfilled...thousands of yrs later. Yet, we r still permitted 2 have blind faith in order 2 b considered righteous?
@julzabro yes it says that.. but mad was created originally GOOD! yes God knows about it ahead of time, but he wanted to test man if he will disobey. you compared humans with the dog, not God with the dog. morals? God is the author of morality. ok, put yourself in Job's case... you are a very loyal servant of God. after God gives you troubles are you going to remain faithful?
@venci27 Yes, man was ORIGINALY created good by a Creator who set up a test that He KNEW we would fail. Do u not sense the injustice here? And y does a god need.....? Y does a god require.....? God created The Law knowing we could not follow it....the Bible says so. The purpose was so that HE could be the Savior. I don't c this as noble nor even godlike. If God is the author of morality, y do our morals surpass His?
@venci27 If I were Job, I can, at least say, that I would've agreed with him that God can squish us like an ant if He chooses and does NOT need a reason. Unlike many believers, most atheists set out to truly KNOW God initially...they weren't looking for a Father but for truth. Most Xtians must DEthrone their own God in order to remain blindly faithful....God needs??? What kind of God NEEDS? Would I remain loyal to an evil demiurge and toss logic and morals aside to do so...nope!
@julzabro well, it didn't change my thoughts upon God... it changed my thoughts upon job... He failed the test... he doubted God but still, through God's mercy and grace he was given back everything... and why would God give his son to the wolves? it is for something better.. Job's story became a testimony... isn't it more familiar? JESUS was like a lamb among the wolves... y did God allow Jesus to just be a carpenter and even die on the cross... it is because of love for you and me..
@venci27 Job did NOT fail according 2 God! That's y he was given replacement children and his stuff! But sorry that's not mercy. Job never never doubted God, he merely saw God 4 what He truly was! Do u really suppose that God made a bet with Satan about His righteous servant Job and Job failed? THAT would mean God was wrong!? But u can read the story and c that wasn't the case. Even Job's wife told him to denounce God and he wouldn't do it yet you and Job's friends blame Job.....hmm?
@venci27 When did Job doubt God? Did u even read it? "wolves"? U mean like letting Satan have his way with Job? Good question considering Job was ALREADY righteous! God gives His children 2 wolves all the time. Where do u think that snake come from? U think God didn't know the snake was in the Tree? Jesus WAS God and who among us would not die 2 save the world? It's especially easy 2 die if u KNOW ur spirit will live 4ever as God, undoubtedly, knew. God wants 2 b the hero and worshipped.
@julzabro 1 peter 1:7 .... read that.. that is the summary of what i have been talking to you about Job... the author is speaking/writing to early CHRISTIANS! those who believed...
@venci27 Ummmm? I am not disputing that God/Jesus/Xtianity promotes and instructs it's followers to have faith...even blind faith. I'm questioning the motive and morality of a god who allows evil supposedly for the purpose of testing people so that they can BECOME righteous who in the Book of Job tests and ALREADY righteous servant for the sole purpose of proving a point to Satan! 1 Peter 1:7 rambling about faith being tested and the reward for it is irrelevant.
@julzabro God allows us to experience hardship for us to always depend on him. how can you say someone is proven to be righteous if there had been no test.During hardship Job questioned God.. I believe in the amazing love of God because i have felt it... well, as for free will... GOd doesn't want us to be like robots... He wants us to believe in Him and worship him out of our own choice... so as angels... God had kept me for 18 years and i know that he will be always till my last breath
@venci27 "how can you say someone is proven to be righteous if there had been no test" That's a good question but I didn't claim it, God did. Either Job had been tested PRIOR 2 the test we read about or he was, somehow, righteous BEFORE any test was done. This doesn't say a lot 4 the often regurtitated theory that evil is allowed 4 the purposes of freewill when we have Job who is ALREADY righteous yet is STILL tested and not 2 c if he is righteous but so God can prove a point 2 Satan...?
@venci27 If you love someone....do "allow [them] to experience hardship" so that they will be dependant on you? Is that a loving thing to do to someone? And do u not think there's a better way than that? Job did NOT question God and Job was the only one out of everyone IN that Book who God claimed was right about Him. Everything Job said about God squashing us like ants etc etc was TRUE according to your God. It was Job's friend's who spoke of God's so-called justice who were wrong.
@venci27 If God really gave freewill and wanted us 2 love Him out of choice; there'd b no penalty 4 something as innoculous as NOT belieiving cuz it's supposed 2 b FREEwill AND we wouldn't have all of these biblical stories showing us a god who is willing to manipulate situaions so that He can b the Hero since He can't/won't manipulate our will supposedly. Angels were not supposed 2 have freewill, yet they fell. We r supposed 2 have freewill yet there's punishment 4 what we choose.
@venci27 Job was only tested due 2 God's desire 2 prove Satan wrong!!! God knew Job was faithful! Angels were created perfect...supposedly, so if an angel could rebel/be flawed then there's a problem with this god/this story. And how could Satan rebel? Did angels have freewill? And what kind of merciless god would create a remedy that SO MANY will not nor cannot believe due 2 logic? And how long didd He wait before showing up as the Son? U call this merciful?
@julzabro so we are talking about how merciful God is... yes GOD knew that Job is faithful, yet He brought dectruction to his life.. why? to show how great he is and how he rewards those who will remain faithful...
and YES, angels have free will... He created you and me with free will too.. don't you want FREE WILL??
HE did not wait to send JESUS... He infact made a way... through burnt offerings... But most didn't turn to him... He had always made a way but men didn't care about his way...
@julzabro yes,God knew Job was faithful but Satan is trying to disprove GOD, so God proved himself as ever knowing God. and Job really did remain faithful as a choice.. who said Angels are perfect? God created them Holy, but they still have the free will!!!!! you can see that in lucifer's story. does creating something or someone with free will wrong? don't you want to have your own choice? faith is beyond logic. God had always made a way for man to be sinless ... burnt offerings...
@venci27 So what if Staan is trying 2 disprove God!? Y would He feel a need 2 prove something 2 Satan? How is THAT more important than protecting a faithful servant? Is THAT worth torturing a faithful servant? Sure, all r tested but usually cuz THEY need 2 b not cuz God needs 2 prove a point! If they r holy, doesn't that indicate perfection? Sure, I want my own choice, I just don't believe the fairytale that says a god gave me that nor that I am an unworthy sinner 2 begin with.
@julzabro being a believer doesn't mean you are safe with trials... i and other belivers believe that... the more you get closer to God the more trials will come to your life...Satan doesn't want man to be closer to God so thus he causes problems to pop up in our lives and cause doubt and unfaithfulness. God causes trials to test us and uses our triumph to show satan he is defeated(what he doesn't want to accept)...
@venci27 As I said "all are tested" I understand that but what I don't understand is a God having a NEED 2 prove a point 2 Satan? Testing faith is supposedly meant as a means 2 strengthen it but truly it's 4 God's reputation. What God did 2 Job was NOT 4 Job's sake since he had ALREADY proved that he was righteous. This makes 1 wonder not only about God's mercy but also about the whole "needing to be tested by fire in order to be righteous" rhetoric.
@venci27 Not only r believers xpected 2 believe blindly but they must also b tested even IF they're already righteous? And it's funny but there are mixed messages in the doctrine and in the religion of Xtianity becuz the propaganda is that "God saves lives" and "with God nothing is impossible." I guess they mean God saves souls ONLY but your life will be screwed and when they say nothings impossible, they mean things like losing all your financial security AND your kids! Thanx God!
@julzabro you don't see it... "suppose you have faith in God"... you are sooooo loyal to him.. and God takes away all your things and loved ones? would you remain faithful? Job REMAINED faithful..
God doesn't mean the physical life... God is saving us from eternal death which is hell... you are in the world, satan's kingdom... but it is up to you if you choose God and be an overcomer.
@venci27 Um, yeah, I do get it...Job was being tested as this life is merely a test and evil exists "they say" for the purpose of the test EVEN THO there's supposedly a loving. merciful and omnipotent god!!!!???? It's just too easy to see the fallacy of this mythology for me is all. I'd have to relinquish all logic and reason to believe in a god like this.
@venci27 If God is not going 2 end Satan, y bother proving a point? This was God ALLOWING Satan 2 cause doubt. So God is part of the problem? Y not say NO? Y allow Satan 2 exist? Oh yeah cuz they'r HAS 2 b a bad guy or so we know evil and choose our way out of it, right? Problem is, God cannot b merciful in this system and He can't claim that He doesn't cause calamity without being a liar.
@julzabro you all are having an excellent conversation here. I maybe posting a video soon on the topic once more on something I figured out. It might not be an answer, but a stab in the dark. If Job can withstand and know not only the "Good" side of the deity but also the "devouring" side, which the Satan discussed in the exchange, then Job would be proven truly virtuous, by still loving the deity both as giver and devourer. People forget that preachers and murders both get hit by buses.
Here is an example of the deity showing both "Good father" and also the "Evil Father" traits Deu 32:39 39: See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
@wayman29 I think knowing that this god is both the giver and devourer makes the knowER more moral than the god rendering the god either LESS than the human or not real. I think if a person doesn't know or see or accept the evil of their god, they don't truly believe and/or worship Him. However, how can one be righteous and worship that which is evil....even if in part...and why would you? I look forward to all your videos! ;)
@julzabro Y allow satan to exist... well, Y allow man to exist too? men are sinners... out of mercy and grace he allows man both the good and the bad receive rain and air to live. what about satan? wasn't satan holy before? wasn't satan like the best angel in heaven... isn't that mercy over satan? why allow satan to tempt us... like what i have said "testing of faithfulness and purity". Satan's end would be at judgment day... evrything has its purpose and time
@venci27 Without man there would b no worshippers...no 1 2 smote, no 1 2 test...He'd be bored. Yeah, Satan was the best angel....still not clear on how he had freewill. And God giving Satan a high rank is not an act of mercy, it's merely a promotion Satan undoubtedly deserved. If God is so allergic 2 evil then asking why He allows Satan 2 exist is a legitimate question. I understand the whole test thing but Job was already righteous and this was to prove a point to Satan. It's strange.
@venci27 isn't the only thing that is perfect is God? angels and man have free will, the capacity to choose.... they were created holy, but their choice made them sinful. isn't being perfect being an ideal one? and holy is being pure and without sin? God is the ideal type of Holiness... if God created angels as holy as he is then angels would be gods. therefore there would not be just one God.
@julzabro ok... the snake? GOD knew the snake was there but freewill prevailed... GOD created man not as a robot. well, worshipping and accepting Jesus is an act of freewill too... its all up to you...JESUS is already a God... He did not just enter the world as an ordinary man... He had the spirit of God... Jesus suffered as a man... God the father allowed Jesus to suffer so as Job for a purpose.. Jesus is to save mankind and Job as a testimony of faithful righteousness..
@venci27 "but freewill prevailed" ? What does that mean? God created the snake put it in the Tree and placed it in our playpen KNOWING we would fail if u wanna call it failing SO THAT we'd have a NEED 4 a hero. This is manipulation NOT freewill. And there is a punishment so it is NOT free. Jesus WAS God even prior 2 being crucified. AGAIN, it's easy 2 die 4 the whole world as a hero/savior KNOWING ur spirit lives forever...not as noble as u make it sound! Yes, Jesus/Job suffered 4 God's purpose.
@julzabro well, i am not following God just because of his promises... I follow him because I know he is right... God actually doesn't punish us for every wrongdoings we make... sin leads to death and god leads to life... God created Hell for satan not for man.. but because of disobedience man will become part of it. God is just telling us what will happen, not punishing us.. He knows where we are leading so he is trying to save us...
@venci27 Hell IS a place of punishment 4 nonbelievers. Punishing people INfinitely 4 finite crimes is not right nor even just imho and that's just the tip of the iceberg of what is morally wrong with ur god...again...just my opinion. If God truly is the creator then He controls everything that happens...so to say He is merely telling us what's going to happen and won't punish us is not only biblically innacurate but also dethrones Him. Remember what Job said and according 2 God he was right.
@julzabro hEll was created for satan not man... just because of disobedience that it became a man's destination. IT WASN"T CREATED FOR MAN... yes He controls everything,, except freewill... sin separates us from God.... its upto you if you will choose God or to sin... Man was created pure so every sin must be purified, only by fire or by the blood of christ... fire will last for infinity so he sent his SON to die for us... why does that dethrone God? He protects us from harm, not HE harming us
@venci27 Jesus, Himself, said nonbelievers go to Hell. Where does It say that Hell was created for Satan? If a person does NOT believe, like myself...we, according to thee Bible...go to Hell! If it's a sin to be INcapable of believing what I see as being myth in any logical manner...then I suppose I deserve Hell, but somehow having and using logic and reason doesn't seem like it should be considered IMmoral or sinful. That's just my opinion tho.
@venci27 23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’
@julzabro If God wanted to be our "set-up" Hero, why did he wait for years to save mankind,.. why did He just chose 1 nation, israel, ... just one nation, to be under his protection... He could hvae chosen atleast 20 nations so there would be more who would look up to him as "hero"... it is free will... the first couple didn't know what the consequence was... that is no punishment... it is just right... GOD is telling us to obey Him because he knows the way to life...
@venci27 "If God wanted to be our "set-up" Hero, why did he wait for years to save mankind" So they could suffer for a good long time and REALLY need a hero. He chose 1 nation cuz He really IS partial and, technically, He saves every1 at the end. It says in Revelations that "every knee shall bow" If God were merely wanting obedience cuz he "knows the way" then there's be no punishment for logical disbelief in Him and there wouldn't be thousands of other gods/religions...we'd all know Him.
@julzabro God doesn't need to be the Hero ... He is the reason of our existence... " If God were merely wanting obedience cuz he "knows the way" then there's be no punishment for logical disbelief in Him and there wouldn't be thousands of other gods/religions...we'd all know Him." no... it is not punishment... it is our real destination because of the fall of man... He knows the way to heaven/Him... well... religion doesn't save so i don't care with that... only jesus saves...
@venci27 If God doesn't need 2 b the hero y is that, often times, being known and being the Savior r the main goals in His Book? U don't know Jesus withOUT religion unless u're making urs up as u go. And suggesting that God knows that our disbelief leads 2 Hell becuz of the fall of man as if it is some kind of natural occurence that God couldn't control....again, DEthrones Him. He either couldn't or WOULD NOT keep evil out of the picture and imho it was for His sake...not ours.
@julzabro "y is that, often times, being known and being the Savior r the main goals in His Book?"- it is because the people does not recognize their creator. don't you have parents? isn't it right for them to be respected and valued? they are the way why you came to being. being the savior? man needed to be saved from eternal death... religion is nothing without knowing God personally. you can do a lot of things but only one can save .. JESUS
@venci27 if God created man to be in Hell, why would God send Jesus to die on the cross? why try to give them way to heaven if their real destination is Hell... Hell became human destination when the first sin took place (disobedience)... no one can Go to heaven unless they have been purified/forgiven by God which is now by the blood of Jesus.
@venci27 Cuz that way He can be the ONLY Way to salvation. Hell became a human destination when your God allowed Satan to have his own kingdom. If there was knowledge as in the TREE OF knowledge, then there was already a Hell becuz the knowledge of good n evil is where our test began using our so-called freewill. Knowledge is also akin to the Law or the Bible and is only FOR sinners acc. 2 the Book. So God makes us sinners so that He can BE the Savior and the only way to be cleansed....nice!
@julzabro God created hell.. but not for man... for satan... God did not make us sinners... adam made themselves sinners... if only they remained faithful and chose to obey... if only they have not give in to the temptation... they were actually obeying... but the devil came in and enticed them... they were deceived that when they eat it, they would be like God... God is just redeeming us to our original state... blameless
@venci27 Luke 13:26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.
@julzabro this is yes this is true... why??? coz many have tried to enter the narrow gate by works. they do goodworks, they go to church trying to be religious.. But none of these men will enter heaven... not until they accept the Lord Jesus and have a personal relationship with Him. suppose you are in your house and someone wants to go in and stay... someone you are not close to... will you allow Him to stay at your house?
@julzabro yes... hell is for those who do not believe... y? it is because it is the righful place for those who do not revere their own creator.... bUT it is NOT ORIGINALLY for man... man was created holy ... but because of sin and not revering HIm, it became our destination... He provided a way but men do not recognize him...
@venci27 So u think Hell, an eternal place of burning, is "the rightful place" 4 someone who simply does not and cannot believe in this god? Really? K, so it doesn't matter if u think Hell is 4 man or u wanna assert that it was originally 4 Satan. The bottom line is u think it's moral and just 4 God 2 punish people ETERNALLY simply 4 not being able 2 believe in Him!?! And this is supposed 2 b FREEwill by a loving God? Do u believe in Zeus? Fairies? Should u b punished 4 that?
@julzabro it is moral and just for sinners to be in hell... they have been given time to repent and know the ONLY ONE TRUE GOD while they are alive. Y do i believe in God? it is because i have seen and heard of His miracles and especially felt His love from deep inside my whole being, spiritually and physically. all my point is this... try and search God in your life.. i chose God not because of hell or his promises. I chose God because i have felt His love.
@venci27 So what if it was a sin for you to not believe in Zeus? Would u think it made sense for your punishment to be 2 burn in hell for eternity cuz you've had PLENTY of time to believe EVEN THO you KNOW that not only does Zeus NOT exist but he is an IMMORAL tyrant of a god who doesn't deserve your worship even if he DID exist? I need more than hearing about miracles and a feel good kumbaya moment to worship a god who has shown less morality and mercy than His own creation.
@julzabro well. zeus has to prove himself first. God proved to me that he is the living God. i don't question Him why he has done everything because everything that happens has a purpose... I have lived in that.... God is beyond the wisdom of men. if your heart is closed the more you will not understand His love and grace.
@venci27 What if Zeus never proves himself to you? Should you still burn in hell for eternity? You're god hasn't prooven Himself to me as well as many people in the world. How can He be impartial as He claims and only prove Himself to certain people and not others? You must be pretty special.
@julzabro sure... the Living One is on my side... who am i to be afraid of? y doesn't he prove himself to you? maybe because your heart is closed for HIm. Let him in to your life. Give Him a chance.
@venci27 And there it is.....the typical, arrogant assumptive judgment crap that u "believers" are so addicted too. For your information myself and most if not all atheists HAVE BEEN religious prior to becoming atheist. Most of us have actually READ the Bible! We were not chosen like you to be given some kind of proof of His existence but it wasn't for lack of trying. I chalk it up to being too sane to call a happy feeling or voices in my head a real thing. Give logic and reason a chance.
@julzabro i don't care if you read the bible... what i care is that have you really seek God. Good thing you read the bible BUT do you really read it with Proper understanding? being religious is not a basis for knowing God... it is with your personal relationship with Him... logic? reason? God is beyond that. He is actually far beyond that... one may think that having an affair is adultery but with God looking lustfully to a girl is already adultery
@venci27 How else does one1 seek God xcept thru some sort of religion? I mean, truly, 1 must decide first WHICH God 2 seek and there4 must learn about all the gods so that he/she can make a decision. God is beyond logic and reason? Not the Xtian God...He claims that He IS knowledge itself. I understand the difference between being religious n being spiritual. That's 1 of the biggest reasons I'm an Atheist. What is the basis for knowing God in ur opinion?
@julzabro well, i grew up in a church that doesn't lift any religion... all what matters is your faith and relationship with the Only True God. yes GOD is knowledge itself... but it is knowledge far beyond what the world could attain. being religious is all about acts of the flesh to show that you believe a God but being spiritual is an inward change that causes you to show that there is a God.
@julzabro the bible has the TORAH itself... the KORAN have certain stories similar of those in the Torah..... as for other beliefs... they should make sure that their god(s) are living.... because i can say that i believe in the LIVING ONE.
@venci27 I know the Old Testament IS the Torah which is only part of the Tanakh. And other beliefs DO claim that their gods are living just like you do.
@julzabro well... its a matter of choice... choose the one you are sure of... but don't regret if you chose the wrong one... me... if my God (though i know is not true) is not alive... well, i know This faith made me a loving person and would not regret it....
@venci27 I don't have any reason to choose ANY of the mythological deities humans have fictionalized about and that has been my whole point to u....which, apparently, u missed. There's no way 2 know that any god is real. Hope can do just as much good in your life as faith and it is actual positive thinking not fake. One doesn't need faith to be loving...in fact, those without it r much more genuine. If u know your God is "not true" y believe?
@venci27 well, that's great for you but I would say it this way....you want to believe your God is true so you simply claim that you "know" but u really don't know.
@julzabro i know he is true... well.. ijust said the thing earlier because some may ask what if my God is not true... i can't persuade them to believe me so that'll be my answer... i know and sure that my God is alive and is true
@venci27 Did you read the Bible? And, as I suspected, you blame man for the fall cuz u think the Tree was just there and nothing created it AND you think the snake just so happened to be in the tree and nothing created the sanke and the tree so happened to contain knowledge of good AND evil. You're God had nothing to do with it, right? Adam didn't even HAVE knowledge yet! And where was God when this all went down? God created the scenario 2 which we bcame fallen.
@venci27 Y would a god not b reckognized by His own creation unless He's hiding? Supposedly, Adam n Eve KNEW HIM as did most people throughout the Bible. Sure a parent wants 2 brespected but they must earn it! They don't try 2 get respect thru manipulation and creating scenarious in which they can b a savior. Who created eternal death? GOD did! U'll say we did by sinning cuz u refuse to accept that a god, that YOUR GOD, had the power and foresight to know what would happen with that Tree.
@julzabro "He's hiding?" we are not seeking him... He has always been there but few only found him. yes God created eternal death... but it is not for you nor for me... its for those who would reject Him as God over their life... He knew what could happen with that tree.... God tested their obedience...
@venci27 No, hell is for me becuz I am a disbeliever. 1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
@venci27 Hell is for nonbelievers...for atheists and yeah God knew what would happen with the tree and did it anyways! And what God needs to test anything when He's omniscient?
@julzabro actually... it was good from the start... adam and eve were obeying... but not until the snake comes in and tempted them. HE is omniscient... He knows what you are thinking and where you are going... choices in life leads to destruction or to better life... God knows both direction but it is upto you where you want to Go. if you choose the wrong way God makes a new path for you to be able to go for a better life but it is still again upto you wheteher you choose it or not.
@venci27 So the 1st time you test your child to see if they will obey and you're child is STILL young and without knowledge or wisdom and your child disobeys you, do you punish them forever???
@julzabro It is a very different situation... God is Holy and we are not. because of sin, we bacame as though marked with it. we cannot enter heaven being sinful... the thing that they have done separates them away from God and closer to the devil. when your child leaves, you will try to find them... but it would be upto that child that when you find it, it will come back to you or not.
@venci27 How and why would a holy entity make a sinful creature? You keep preaching about us needing to be cleansed of our sin instead of addressing the problems with it. Adam n Eve never went anywhere....God did.
@venci27 Why didn't God just make us holy/cleansed to begin with? You will say cuz He wanted us to have freewill and I will say it isn't free becuz there is a punishment if we choose option A over option B. So God allowed us to fall so that we'd NEED Him and claims it was so that we'd have freewill but it's not REALLY free.
@julzabro he made us holy.... we were without blemish in the very beginning.... why sin entered the world???? it is because adam and eve disobeyed... they were sinless but they gave in to the temptation and disobeyed.
@MrHead1972 Sorry mrhead. This video was definitely not made for folks with short attention spans. I was kind enough to warn you in the description that I would be long winded. "The Charlie Bit My Finger" video is right next door and it's only 56 sec.! You may enjoy that more! I know I did! Thanks for watching! I got the view count!
This so called Babylonian exile the Christianists keep talking about is all wishfull thinking. I can understand one or two jewish people going into exile but more than two has never been observed by history. This "macro" exile theory is full of holes. Micro exile has been observed many times but this legendary "maro" exile.
people who water down the bible ,also water down the soul cause God gave noone the Autority to change his scriptures through his book..and look people Saying they are Christian,Ghosthunting,psychic reading,calling ufo's are galactic brothers !! People turning from Christ to call themselves a spiritual being are jumping the gun a bit .for it is Christ who decides and turning from him will only keep you where you are now..wishing to be something you have not the power to do on your own.Satans scam
Yes! biblical history is a problem for some, and for others theological biblical history . And still for others, they are unable to tell the difference..:0)
Excellent response. Very well stated. I believe also that the book of Job was intended to express that there IS, indeed, a battle going on between God and Satan. God must let Sin take its course. In the end, we will see that God's way is best. Satan's way brings death. God's way brings life and peace.
technique: this is maybe w/o contest, the best work you've done. Still, it's not great work. You dilute any impact by constantly back-and-forthing between the exiles and the character of Job. Now you're on lamentations and Ishtar. Your points on Job are real. all the other shit in this space of time!
Thanks for the kind compliment. Had you read "Lamentations to Ishtar" you may realize how such comparisons cam be drawn. Again see definition of anthropology. Thanks for watching and I possibly still will drive you crazy in the future.
That comparisons "can be drawn" is hardly the point. Have you ever taught a class? Have you ever written a paper? It isn't whiskey if it isn't distilled.
Anyway, Satan is "devil's advocate" in Job. Don't tell me to "google anthropology," bitch. I hate these short things for expressing my opinion. Better: gods MORE wicked and unreasonable than humans. Many good points here. good 4 U.
Fuck! It's so frustrating watching you. It's like you could say so much! But you continually dilute your concentration on one point that could hit home by ranging around the whole fucking world! The story is as it is. The time is not enough to discuss every fucking thing in the world that could be associated with it. God, Wayman. focus.
But unfortunately not reading Ancient Near East Literature and just the evangelical commentaries on them has done a disservice. I go with the literature not the modern theology on how we are suppose to view the literature.
No I said on an earlier video I think your approach is liberal and widespread and that in some traditional thinking is a good idea. It is essentially however very american. My critique is that not to specialise in a theology leads to intellectual disaray. Evangelical modern commentaries are far too fundamentalist protestant for any thinking person! LOL
No though interesting your argument is flawed. I would say you fail to see the wood because of the trees. Yahweh is nothing like any other deity. The jewish god is not the king/father as in other religions but a dynamic mystery. Suffering in Job is part of humanity and the story means that faith in Yahweh ultimately results in individual life betterment. What is death anyway? Good effort but your analysis rambling this time. Sorry.
"No though interesting your argument is flawed." Thanks for your comment. I sure hope I am able to dodge the trees. Who else would Yahweh be if he was not a King/Father that might leave out half the Psalms.
Hello Wayman29, I dont mean to insult you cause you at least do cause debate etc. But Yahweh unlike the eastern gods or greek gods or other deities is travelling with his people. The jews allowed for the fact that they would grow in knowledge in TIME itself. Other deities are about being in time so when the people die devotion is threatened. Yahweh is beyong time and his people grow to him and that is unique in the ancient world.
The psalms are about a view point in time attributed to David as showing the relationship Israel has to Yahweh. Obviously God is seen as father but it is procative not passive. Unlike pagan deity, Yahweh is about the singular relationship with his people in time, not about perception but about revealling mystery. The psalms borrow texts ideas from elsewhere but they also identify the relationship of yahweh with his People the jews and this is unique in the ancient world.
It is most unfortunate that our Ideas about New Testment Theology has distorted the views of the Old Testment. Yahweh was in fact like the other deities of the ancient Near East. The had a three level pantheon, heavenly council, and other characteristics. Example would be the first Chapter of Job and Psalms 82
Ezekiel internalized Yahweh for the people after the temple was destroyed. Yahweh like the the gods needed a temple to claim legitimacy in Israel. The Deity El from the Canaanite Pantheon transcended time because he was integrated in with the characteristics of Yahweh. It was El who was first call Ancient of Days..
Such occurrences happen even today with the deities. Baal later over took El,also and a Modern example would be Christ over taking the deity Yahweh. It's a progression that happens. You can read it in the literature.
First it was Yahweh slaying death and the serpent , then in the New Testment It's Christ over coming Death in the resurrection. Also stories of Christ slaying the dragon in Revelation would apply. Which in Daniel was applied to Yahweh.
Yahweh creates death in result of disobedience, I am unaware that he slays it? Christ overcomes death in the NT but he does it for humanity not for himself. Revelation like Daniel is a vision not a reality as such. Like all visions its interpretation depends upon certain traditions not necessarily those from the Reformation.
Calm down, dont lose it. Baal is not El and Christ does not replace Yahweh even in Christian theology. According to Christianity Christ Jesus is the son of The Father of the same being. Yahweh remains as His father and as Jesus acknowledges in the Gospel, being a good jew that he was. You dont read a progressive takeover in literature as it is not there!
I agree that it is the case that sometimes NT does distort OT ideas. It is not true that Yahweh ever had a pantheon as like Greece or Egypt or other states. It is true that Yahweh remains singular and alone, unique, almighty. If beings come before him as they do it is to show his power. Moses stands before God but is not an equal. Also dont forget that other gods exist in the OT but before Yahweh they are as nothing.
Yeah, I've never been satisified by the whole, "My ways are above your ways" brush-off. I appreciate your Exilic approach though, because that is in fact the historical context of this text. A timely study.... Thanks. :)
i know because i have felt it.... it is more than just happiness or whatever you may call it...
venci27 6 months ago
i know he is true... well.. ijust said the thing earlier because some may ask what if my God is not true... i can't persuade them to believe me so that'll be my answer... i know and sure that my God is alive and is true
venci27 6 months ago
That's an interesting take. I mean the historical perspective. I think its more personal than that. That the point of the story not about why bad things happen, but how to cope with them and how to help those who are coping with them. I think what the story expresses, that one must let go of the "why me", accept the fate that the universe dealt him to find peace. But we must come to that on our own. Friends teaching/judging/advising Job didn't ease his suffering. They failed to care for him.
vdizhoor 1 year ago
Many of the stories in the Bible and the Bible itself is not complete but why would u say it was written to NOT be complete? What would the intention be there? And if good, righteous people get diseases and suffer and, apparently, are PUNISHED by God for nothing more than to prove something to Satan then WHY WORSHIP THAT? That's tyranny!
julzabro 1 year ago
@julzabro well, God uses punishment to discipline us. He shows the way, but it is upto you if you follow it. i don`t care what you do in life its yours.. do your own thing... well, for me... i choose to follow God because i know i will get his promises not just afterlife but i can receive it now... angels are not supposed to have freewill? how can you say so?
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 Following God in order 2 get the promises is not the same as following God cuz u believe He is right and moral. If u do good 4 a reward, it's not doing good 4 goodness sake...it's simply wanting a prize or 2 b on the winning team. What promises do u suppose u get in THIS life 4 following God? Angels r messengers of God and were created solely 4 that purpose. We were the 1st creation 2 have freewill. It is said that the angels, namely Satan, were jealous of us cuz we had freewill.
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro i'll pm you... i don't have time looking for all your comments...
venci27 7 months ago
Why was Job...a righteous man....put through this trial BY God when freewill and the creation BY GOD of evil was for the purpose of making us righteous? This is NOT loving nor merciful nor even just! Furthermore, why BE righteous is it doesn't protect u from this? If Job was righteous, why did HE need to be tested?
julzabro 1 year ago
@julzabro good! That is what Job is saying throughout the text.
wayman29 1 year ago
@wayman29 well...after going to your channel I see where ur coming from....Great background btw!....;) I'm a fan!
julzabro 1 year ago
Why is there poverty in the world? Why do people get stricken with uncurable diseases? Mankind is naturally evil and dark. God tested Job because He KNEW that Job would not turn away from Him despite losing all of his earthly possessions. If you recall, we are to store our treasures in Heaven, not our treasures on Earth.
Rawk4Life 10 months ago
@Rawk4Life "Mankind is naturally evil and dark." is exactly what religion wants you to think. SO, let me get this straight. This supposed LOVING god who allows His creation 2 live in a fallen world 4 the SOLE purpose of FREEWILL which allows us 2 CHOOSE and, there4, allows opportunity 4 righteousness decides 2 take JOB, an ALREADY RIGHTEOUS man, and STRIP him of all that he has INCLUDING his children becuz JOB was a good bet? SO that's OK 2 u?
julzabro 10 months ago
@Rawk4Life Job WAS righteous and needed no lesson about storing treasure! And THAT has NOTHING to do with the point here! If a parent were to say..."Ya know my really well behaved, good son really loves me but I bet if I were to put him out in the street with nothing he'd STILL love me."....would you think that was a good, loving parent or a sick, arrogant, prick?!?!?
julzabro 10 months ago
Did you read later on in the book of Job where God blessed him more than double of what he had lost? In other words, if he trust God in times of trial and tribulation, He will look upon us with favor and bless us for it. Of course you wouldn't acknowledge this because you're too busy accusing God of being unmerciful and cruel.
Rawk4Life 10 months ago
@Rawk4Life Actually, I HAVE read that part of Job as well as the whole Bible many, many times and, maybe you're not a parent, but killing a person's children and giving them replacements is NOT in ANY WAY ACCEPTABLE! And, replacing or giving twice after causing UNDUE pain n suffering is immoral AND out of character w/ the earthly possesion crap u were spewing!
julzabro 10 months ago
@Rawk4Life I know its easier 4 u to assume that I missed something or purposely left something out rather than actually considering the IMMORALITY of ur god but, sadly, that IS the reality!
julzabro 10 months ago
@Rawk4Life Also, what kind of justice was this 4 Job's kids? How does that sit with you knowing that no matter how righteous you are that EVEN your kids r vulnerable to ur god's attacks? Doesn't seem worthy to me cuz that is NOT love NOR is that a king I would or ever COULD respect!
julzabro 10 months ago
@Rawk4Life- Hey Raw thanks for the comments but I think in real life you don't get everything back two fold, And the promises you claim in your statement are not true in life. In real life calamities happen to the just and unjust alike. That is why I believe both the intro and endings were later tack ons.
wayman29 10 months ago
@julzabro humans have shortcomings ryt? we sometimes fail. NOt all humans will remain righteous before the Lord... in Job's story, that is what God is testing him on.. his FAITHFULNESS. i like the story of Job because he is a proof that even in the midst of trials, someone can still remain righteous. also, God did not create evil, everything He created is good... "evil exists because of the absence of goodness". God allows us to co-exist with evil to test us(just like job).read matthew 13:24-30
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 Job WAS faithful, so y test him? U say "in the midst of trials" as if these trials just happened as if 2 deny that this was god causing and allowing trials 2 happen 2 an ALREADY faithful servant! Of course, humans have flaws! 1 would think that a god, thee creator, would know that and not test/punish DUE 2 flaws HE KNOWS we have! Yes, this says A LOT about Job/humans but also the lack of logic and mercy of this god! If God exists and God is good, whence cometh evil?
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro Job is being tested if he WILL BE faithful UNTILL THE END... "if God exists and God is good, whence cometh evil?" how would you know something is evil if you don't know what is good.... God created all things good and man he created perfect. when sin entered the world, man had the "flaws". God thought of this so He sent His son to die on the cross for us to be blameless again. whence cometh evil? know who satan was and is now. he was an angel who rebelled against God...
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 In real life some do not get everything back. The Just suffer as the wicked. You make it sound that after the earthquakes in Haiti and Japan only believer's houses and Churches we left standing. But we all know that was not the case. The answer might be like Plato states in Gorgias " next best thing to a man being just is that he should become just, and be chastised and punished; also that he should avoid all flattery of himself as well as of others".
wayman29 7 months ago
@wayman29 I would never suggest that only believers r left standing after an earthquake, but those who actually blieve in a so called merciful god say they must've deserved it. A belief that suggests that only we who blieve r saved/righteous is by no means avoiding flattery, in fact, it's VERY arrogant! Succombing 2 an illogical myth that is KNOWN 4 brainwashing the masses as a means of control is not noble but sadistic. Anything that attempts 2 tear away at 1's self esteem should b questioned.
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro - " Anything that attempts 2 tear away at 1's self esteem should b questioned." Then you would question Paul's teachings and righteousness it's self. The whole of Christianity destroys the self inorder for it to be "Born Again" . Once more it is far better, as Job showed, to suffer injustice then to commit injustice.
wayman29 7 months ago
@wayman29 The idea of righteousness for Paul had much to do with his religious beliefs. Strangely, Paul was far more righteous than the god he worshipped. Paul was far more impartial. What I see is that supposed sinful humans understand righteousness better than the gods we've concocted. It wasn't Job's idea to "suffer" and it was his faith...his commitment...that kept him from denouncing this god. Denouncing the god would not have been an "injustice" but rather a relentment from his commitment.
julzabro 7 months ago
@wayman29 I would question Paul's righteousness being attributed 2 his god. Paul was MORE righteous than his god since his god didn't always show the same mercy. Job showed that HIS god will do as He pleases and Job knew/understood that. Job did not, like most Xtians, DEthrone his god in order to continue worshipping Him...as his friends did. Again, who does this story say more about...Job who took a beating as many will or a so called merciful god doing the beating?
julzabro 7 months ago
@wayman29 well, the good and the bad would suffer too... if you read the bible, we, believers had been told what will happen... we will suffer too... yeah, in real life... some do not get everything back... some of us are killed don't you know that because of our faith... i am lucky i am in a tolerant country. we know our rewards will be greater in heaven... "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal." matthew 6: 19
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 Wouldn't God already know the depths of Job's righteousness? If ur dog is loyal 2 u, should u start kicking him 2 see if he'll REMAIN loyal? According 2 the Bible, He did NOT create man good, we r all born sinners. How does sin just enter the world? If you insist that God didn't create it nor causes it, WHERE did it come from and how is it that it got passed God? Do u REALLY suppose an angel could rebel and do u REALLY think his rebelling wasn't part of God's plan?
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro omg! don't quote "according to the bible" if you don't know the bible... man was created good from the very start(genesis 1:31).. how did sin enter ... "disobedience because of free will"... READ the bible so you would know the Story of the fall of man!!!! why did God put the tree and fruit there? TESTING!!! God doesn't control our will. Don't compare man to a Dog... we are far more intelligent than they are...
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 When did I misquote the Bible? Do u suppose that God didn't know the outcome of the test ahead of time? We are all born sinners due to Adam's transgression. Rom 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. I've read the Bible many times and I don't think I ever compared God to a dog but merely compared His lack of morals to those of His servants.
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro " We are all born sinners due to Adam's transgression." I can believe this theology to be correct simply due to the text "Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." I would believe Ezekiel over Paul.
wayman29 7 months ago
@wayman29 U can't believe a Doctrine written by He who is on trial can u? Nonetheless, I understand that we bcame sinners due Adam's sin....that's not the point tho. The point is we were created 2 fail so that God could b the hero or the only way out and I don't c that as being fair, honest nor merciful. I c it as manipulation. Once Jesus was crucified the Law was fullfilled...thousands of yrs later. Yet, we r still permitted 2 have blind faith in order 2 b considered righteous?
julzabro 7 months ago
@wayman29 Y would u believe Ezekiel over Paul? They're have equal credentials don't they?
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro yes it says that.. but mad was created originally GOOD! yes God knows about it ahead of time, but he wanted to test man if he will disobey. you compared humans with the dog, not God with the dog. morals? God is the author of morality. ok, put yourself in Job's case... you are a very loyal servant of God. after God gives you troubles are you going to remain faithful?
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 Yes, man was ORIGINALY created good by a Creator who set up a test that He KNEW we would fail. Do u not sense the injustice here? And y does a god need.....? Y does a god require.....? God created The Law knowing we could not follow it....the Bible says so. The purpose was so that HE could be the Savior. I don't c this as noble nor even godlike. If God is the author of morality, y do our morals surpass His?
julzabro 7 months ago
@venci27 If I were Job, I can, at least say, that I would've agreed with him that God can squish us like an ant if He chooses and does NOT need a reason. Unlike many believers, most atheists set out to truly KNOW God initially...they weren't looking for a Father but for truth. Most Xtians must DEthrone their own God in order to remain blindly faithful....God needs??? What kind of God NEEDS? Would I remain loyal to an evil demiurge and toss logic and morals aside to do so...nope!
julzabro 7 months ago
@venci27 Click on The Book of Job by ProfMTH over there in the right comlumn...start with Book 1, then tell me your thoughts.
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro well, it didn't change my thoughts upon God... it changed my thoughts upon job... He failed the test... he doubted God but still, through God's mercy and grace he was given back everything... and why would God give his son to the wolves? it is for something better.. Job's story became a testimony... isn't it more familiar? JESUS was like a lamb among the wolves... y did God allow Jesus to just be a carpenter and even die on the cross... it is because of love for you and me..
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 Job did NOT fail according 2 God! That's y he was given replacement children and his stuff! But sorry that's not mercy. Job never never doubted God, he merely saw God 4 what He truly was! Do u really suppose that God made a bet with Satan about His righteous servant Job and Job failed? THAT would mean God was wrong!? But u can read the story and c that wasn't the case. Even Job's wife told him to denounce God and he wouldn't do it yet you and Job's friends blame Job.....hmm?
julzabro 7 months ago
@venci27 When did Job doubt God? Did u even read it? "wolves"? U mean like letting Satan have his way with Job? Good question considering Job was ALREADY righteous! God gives His children 2 wolves all the time. Where do u think that snake come from? U think God didn't know the snake was in the Tree? Jesus WAS God and who among us would not die 2 save the world? It's especially easy 2 die if u KNOW ur spirit will live 4ever as God, undoubtedly, knew. God wants 2 b the hero and worshipped.
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro 1 peter 1:7 .... read that.. that is the summary of what i have been talking to you about Job... the author is speaking/writing to early CHRISTIANS! those who believed...
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 Ummmm? I am not disputing that God/Jesus/Xtianity promotes and instructs it's followers to have faith...even blind faith. I'm questioning the motive and morality of a god who allows evil supposedly for the purpose of testing people so that they can BECOME righteous who in the Book of Job tests and ALREADY righteous servant for the sole purpose of proving a point to Satan! 1 Peter 1:7 rambling about faith being tested and the reward for it is irrelevant.
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro God allows us to experience hardship for us to always depend on him. how can you say someone is proven to be righteous if there had been no test.During hardship Job questioned God.. I believe in the amazing love of God because i have felt it... well, as for free will... GOd doesn't want us to be like robots... He wants us to believe in Him and worship him out of our own choice... so as angels... God had kept me for 18 years and i know that he will be always till my last breath
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 "how can you say someone is proven to be righteous if there had been no test" That's a good question but I didn't claim it, God did. Either Job had been tested PRIOR 2 the test we read about or he was, somehow, righteous BEFORE any test was done. This doesn't say a lot 4 the often regurtitated theory that evil is allowed 4 the purposes of freewill when we have Job who is ALREADY righteous yet is STILL tested and not 2 c if he is righteous but so God can prove a point 2 Satan...?
julzabro 7 months ago
@venci27 If you love someone....do "allow [them] to experience hardship" so that they will be dependant on you? Is that a loving thing to do to someone? And do u not think there's a better way than that? Job did NOT question God and Job was the only one out of everyone IN that Book who God claimed was right about Him. Everything Job said about God squashing us like ants etc etc was TRUE according to your God. It was Job's friend's who spoke of God's so-called justice who were wrong.
julzabro 7 months ago
@venci27 If God really gave freewill and wanted us 2 love Him out of choice; there'd b no penalty 4 something as innoculous as NOT belieiving cuz it's supposed 2 b FREEwill AND we wouldn't have all of these biblical stories showing us a god who is willing to manipulate situaions so that He can b the Hero since He can't/won't manipulate our will supposedly. Angels were not supposed 2 have freewill, yet they fell. We r supposed 2 have freewill yet there's punishment 4 what we choose.
julzabro 7 months ago
@venci27 Job was only tested due 2 God's desire 2 prove Satan wrong!!! God knew Job was faithful! Angels were created perfect...supposedly, so if an angel could rebel/be flawed then there's a problem with this god/this story. And how could Satan rebel? Did angels have freewill? And what kind of merciless god would create a remedy that SO MANY will not nor cannot believe due 2 logic? And how long didd He wait before showing up as the Son? U call this merciful?
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro so we are talking about how merciful God is... yes GOD knew that Job is faithful, yet He brought dectruction to his life.. why? to show how great he is and how he rewards those who will remain faithful...
and YES, angels have free will... He created you and me with free will too.. don't you want FREE WILL??
HE did not wait to send JESUS... He infact made a way... through burnt offerings... But most didn't turn to him... He had always made a way but men didn't care about his way...
venci27 7 months ago
@julzabro yes,God knew Job was faithful but Satan is trying to disprove GOD, so God proved himself as ever knowing God. and Job really did remain faithful as a choice.. who said Angels are perfect? God created them Holy, but they still have the free will!!!!! you can see that in lucifer's story. does creating something or someone with free will wrong? don't you want to have your own choice? faith is beyond logic. God had always made a way for man to be sinless ... burnt offerings...
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 sorry about that 2 replies meaning the same thing... i thought my first reply wasn't posted.
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 So what if Staan is trying 2 disprove God!? Y would He feel a need 2 prove something 2 Satan? How is THAT more important than protecting a faithful servant? Is THAT worth torturing a faithful servant? Sure, all r tested but usually cuz THEY need 2 b not cuz God needs 2 prove a point! If they r holy, doesn't that indicate perfection? Sure, I want my own choice, I just don't believe the fairytale that says a god gave me that nor that I am an unworthy sinner 2 begin with.
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro being a believer doesn't mean you are safe with trials... i and other belivers believe that... the more you get closer to God the more trials will come to your life...Satan doesn't want man to be closer to God so thus he causes problems to pop up in our lives and cause doubt and unfaithfulness. God causes trials to test us and uses our triumph to show satan he is defeated(what he doesn't want to accept)...
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 As I said "all are tested" I understand that but what I don't understand is a God having a NEED 2 prove a point 2 Satan? Testing faith is supposedly meant as a means 2 strengthen it but truly it's 4 God's reputation. What God did 2 Job was NOT 4 Job's sake since he had ALREADY proved that he was righteous. This makes 1 wonder not only about God's mercy but also about the whole "needing to be tested by fire in order to be righteous" rhetoric.
julzabro 7 months ago
@venci27 Not only r believers xpected 2 believe blindly but they must also b tested even IF they're already righteous? And it's funny but there are mixed messages in the doctrine and in the religion of Xtianity becuz the propaganda is that "God saves lives" and "with God nothing is impossible." I guess they mean God saves souls ONLY but your life will be screwed and when they say nothings impossible, they mean things like losing all your financial security AND your kids! Thanx God!
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro you don't see it... "suppose you have faith in God"... you are sooooo loyal to him.. and God takes away all your things and loved ones? would you remain faithful? Job REMAINED faithful..
God doesn't mean the physical life... God is saving us from eternal death which is hell... you are in the world, satan's kingdom... but it is up to you if you choose God and be an overcomer.
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 Um, yeah, I do get it...Job was being tested as this life is merely a test and evil exists "they say" for the purpose of the test EVEN THO there's supposedly a loving. merciful and omnipotent god!!!!???? It's just too easy to see the fallacy of this mythology for me is all. I'd have to relinquish all logic and reason to believe in a god like this.
julzabro 7 months ago
@venci27 If God is not going 2 end Satan, y bother proving a point? This was God ALLOWING Satan 2 cause doubt. So God is part of the problem? Y not say NO? Y allow Satan 2 exist? Oh yeah cuz they'r HAS 2 b a bad guy or so we know evil and choose our way out of it, right? Problem is, God cannot b merciful in this system and He can't claim that He doesn't cause calamity without being a liar.
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro you all are having an excellent conversation here. I maybe posting a video soon on the topic once more on something I figured out. It might not be an answer, but a stab in the dark. If Job can withstand and know not only the "Good" side of the deity but also the "devouring" side, which the Satan discussed in the exchange, then Job would be proven truly virtuous, by still loving the deity both as giver and devourer. People forget that preachers and murders both get hit by buses.
wayman29 7 months ago
Here is an example of the deity showing both "Good father" and also the "Evil Father" traits Deu 32:39 39: See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
wayman29 7 months ago
@wayman29 I think knowing that this god is both the giver and devourer makes the knowER more moral than the god rendering the god either LESS than the human or not real. I think if a person doesn't know or see or accept the evil of their god, they don't truly believe and/or worship Him. However, how can one be righteous and worship that which is evil....even if in part...and why would you? I look forward to all your videos! ;)
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro Y allow satan to exist... well, Y allow man to exist too? men are sinners... out of mercy and grace he allows man both the good and the bad receive rain and air to live. what about satan? wasn't satan holy before? wasn't satan like the best angel in heaven... isn't that mercy over satan? why allow satan to tempt us... like what i have said "testing of faithfulness and purity". Satan's end would be at judgment day... evrything has its purpose and time
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 Without man there would b no worshippers...no 1 2 smote, no 1 2 test...He'd be bored. Yeah, Satan was the best angel....still not clear on how he had freewill. And God giving Satan a high rank is not an act of mercy, it's merely a promotion Satan undoubtedly deserved. If God is so allergic 2 evil then asking why He allows Satan 2 exist is a legitimate question. I understand the whole test thing but Job was already righteous and this was to prove a point to Satan. It's strange.
julzabro 7 months ago
@venci27 isn't the only thing that is perfect is God? angels and man have free will, the capacity to choose.... they were created holy, but their choice made them sinful. isn't being perfect being an ideal one? and holy is being pure and without sin? God is the ideal type of Holiness... if God created angels as holy as he is then angels would be gods. therefore there would not be just one God.
venci27 7 months ago
@julzabro ok... the snake? GOD knew the snake was there but freewill prevailed... GOD created man not as a robot. well, worshipping and accepting Jesus is an act of freewill too... its all up to you...JESUS is already a God... He did not just enter the world as an ordinary man... He had the spirit of God... Jesus suffered as a man... God the father allowed Jesus to suffer so as Job for a purpose.. Jesus is to save mankind and Job as a testimony of faithful righteousness..
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 "but freewill prevailed" ? What does that mean? God created the snake put it in the Tree and placed it in our playpen KNOWING we would fail if u wanna call it failing SO THAT we'd have a NEED 4 a hero. This is manipulation NOT freewill. And there is a punishment so it is NOT free. Jesus WAS God even prior 2 being crucified. AGAIN, it's easy 2 die 4 the whole world as a hero/savior KNOWING ur spirit lives forever...not as noble as u make it sound! Yes, Jesus/Job suffered 4 God's purpose.
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro well, i am not following God just because of his promises... I follow him because I know he is right... God actually doesn't punish us for every wrongdoings we make... sin leads to death and god leads to life... God created Hell for satan not for man.. but because of disobedience man will become part of it. God is just telling us what will happen, not punishing us.. He knows where we are leading so he is trying to save us...
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 Hell IS a place of punishment 4 nonbelievers. Punishing people INfinitely 4 finite crimes is not right nor even just imho and that's just the tip of the iceberg of what is morally wrong with ur god...again...just my opinion. If God truly is the creator then He controls everything that happens...so to say He is merely telling us what's going to happen and won't punish us is not only biblically innacurate but also dethrones Him. Remember what Job said and according 2 God he was right.
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro hEll was created for satan not man... just because of disobedience that it became a man's destination. IT WASN"T CREATED FOR MAN... yes He controls everything,, except freewill... sin separates us from God.... its upto you if you will choose God or to sin... Man was created pure so every sin must be purified, only by fire or by the blood of christ... fire will last for infinity so he sent his SON to die for us... why does that dethrone God? He protects us from harm, not HE harming us
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 Jesus, Himself, said nonbelievers go to Hell. Where does It say that Hell was created for Satan? If a person does NOT believe, like myself...we, according to thee Bible...go to Hell! If it's a sin to be INcapable of believing what I see as being myth in any logical manner...then I suppose I deserve Hell, but somehow having and using logic and reason doesn't seem like it should be considered IMmoral or sinful. That's just my opinion tho.
julzabro 7 months ago
@venci27 23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro If God wanted to be our "set-up" Hero, why did he wait for years to save mankind,.. why did He just chose 1 nation, israel, ... just one nation, to be under his protection... He could hvae chosen atleast 20 nations so there would be more who would look up to him as "hero"... it is free will... the first couple didn't know what the consequence was... that is no punishment... it is just right... GOD is telling us to obey Him because he knows the way to life...
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 "If God wanted to be our "set-up" Hero, why did he wait for years to save mankind" So they could suffer for a good long time and REALLY need a hero. He chose 1 nation cuz He really IS partial and, technically, He saves every1 at the end. It says in Revelations that "every knee shall bow" If God were merely wanting obedience cuz he "knows the way" then there's be no punishment for logical disbelief in Him and there wouldn't be thousands of other gods/religions...we'd all know Him.
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro God doesn't need to be the Hero ... He is the reason of our existence... " If God were merely wanting obedience cuz he "knows the way" then there's be no punishment for logical disbelief in Him and there wouldn't be thousands of other gods/religions...we'd all know Him." no... it is not punishment... it is our real destination because of the fall of man... He knows the way to heaven/Him... well... religion doesn't save so i don't care with that... only jesus saves...
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 If God doesn't need 2 b the hero y is that, often times, being known and being the Savior r the main goals in His Book? U don't know Jesus withOUT religion unless u're making urs up as u go. And suggesting that God knows that our disbelief leads 2 Hell becuz of the fall of man as if it is some kind of natural occurence that God couldn't control....again, DEthrones Him. He either couldn't or WOULD NOT keep evil out of the picture and imho it was for His sake...not ours.
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro "y is that, often times, being known and being the Savior r the main goals in His Book?"- it is because the people does not recognize their creator. don't you have parents? isn't it right for them to be respected and valued? they are the way why you came to being. being the savior? man needed to be saved from eternal death... religion is nothing without knowing God personally. you can do a lot of things but only one can save .. JESUS
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 if God created man to be in Hell, why would God send Jesus to die on the cross? why try to give them way to heaven if their real destination is Hell... Hell became human destination when the first sin took place (disobedience)... no one can Go to heaven unless they have been purified/forgiven by God which is now by the blood of Jesus.
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 Cuz that way He can be the ONLY Way to salvation. Hell became a human destination when your God allowed Satan to have his own kingdom. If there was knowledge as in the TREE OF knowledge, then there was already a Hell becuz the knowledge of good n evil is where our test began using our so-called freewill. Knowledge is also akin to the Law or the Bible and is only FOR sinners acc. 2 the Book. So God makes us sinners so that He can BE the Savior and the only way to be cleansed....nice!
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro God created hell.. but not for man... for satan... God did not make us sinners... adam made themselves sinners... if only they remained faithful and chose to obey... if only they have not give in to the temptation... they were actually obeying... but the devil came in and enticed them... they were deceived that when they eat it, they would be like God... God is just redeeming us to our original state... blameless
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 Luke 13:26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro this is yes this is true... why??? coz many have tried to enter the narrow gate by works. they do goodworks, they go to church trying to be religious.. But none of these men will enter heaven... not until they accept the Lord Jesus and have a personal relationship with Him. suppose you are in your house and someone wants to go in and stay... someone you are not close to... will you allow Him to stay at your house?
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 The point is....hell is for those who deny Jesus according to YOUR Dotrine therfore Hell IS for humans who, like me, do NOT believe.
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro yes... hell is for those who do not believe... y? it is because it is the righful place for those who do not revere their own creator.... bUT it is NOT ORIGINALLY for man... man was created holy ... but because of sin and not revering HIm, it became our destination... He provided a way but men do not recognize him...
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 So u think Hell, an eternal place of burning, is "the rightful place" 4 someone who simply does not and cannot believe in this god? Really? K, so it doesn't matter if u think Hell is 4 man or u wanna assert that it was originally 4 Satan. The bottom line is u think it's moral and just 4 God 2 punish people ETERNALLY simply 4 not being able 2 believe in Him!?! And this is supposed 2 b FREEwill by a loving God? Do u believe in Zeus? Fairies? Should u b punished 4 that?
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro it is moral and just for sinners to be in hell... they have been given time to repent and know the ONLY ONE TRUE GOD while they are alive. Y do i believe in God? it is because i have seen and heard of His miracles and especially felt His love from deep inside my whole being, spiritually and physically. all my point is this... try and search God in your life.. i chose God not because of hell or his promises. I chose God because i have felt His love.
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 So what if it was a sin for you to not believe in Zeus? Would u think it made sense for your punishment to be 2 burn in hell for eternity cuz you've had PLENTY of time to believe EVEN THO you KNOW that not only does Zeus NOT exist but he is an IMMORAL tyrant of a god who doesn't deserve your worship even if he DID exist? I need more than hearing about miracles and a feel good kumbaya moment to worship a god who has shown less morality and mercy than His own creation.
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro well. zeus has to prove himself first. God proved to me that he is the living God. i don't question Him why he has done everything because everything that happens has a purpose... I have lived in that.... God is beyond the wisdom of men. if your heart is closed the more you will not understand His love and grace.
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 What if Zeus never proves himself to you? Should you still burn in hell for eternity? You're god hasn't prooven Himself to me as well as many people in the world. How can He be impartial as He claims and only prove Himself to certain people and not others? You must be pretty special.
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro sure... the Living One is on my side... who am i to be afraid of? y doesn't he prove himself to you? maybe because your heart is closed for HIm. Let him in to your life. Give Him a chance.
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 And there it is.....the typical, arrogant assumptive judgment crap that u "believers" are so addicted too. For your information myself and most if not all atheists HAVE BEEN religious prior to becoming atheist. Most of us have actually READ the Bible! We were not chosen like you to be given some kind of proof of His existence but it wasn't for lack of trying. I chalk it up to being too sane to call a happy feeling or voices in my head a real thing. Give logic and reason a chance.
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro i don't care if you read the bible... what i care is that have you really seek God. Good thing you read the bible BUT do you really read it with Proper understanding? being religious is not a basis for knowing God... it is with your personal relationship with Him... logic? reason? God is beyond that. He is actually far beyond that... one may think that having an affair is adultery but with God looking lustfully to a girl is already adultery
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 How else does one1 seek God xcept thru some sort of religion? I mean, truly, 1 must decide first WHICH God 2 seek and there4 must learn about all the gods so that he/she can make a decision. God is beyond logic and reason? Not the Xtian God...He claims that He IS knowledge itself. I understand the difference between being religious n being spiritual. That's 1 of the biggest reasons I'm an Atheist. What is the basis for knowing God in ur opinion?
julzabro 6 months ago
@julzabro well, i grew up in a church that doesn't lift any religion... all what matters is your faith and relationship with the Only True God. yes GOD is knowledge itself... but it is knowledge far beyond what the world could attain. being religious is all about acts of the flesh to show that you believe a God but being spiritual is an inward change that causes you to show that there is a God.
venci27 6 months ago
@venci27 How does one know which is the "Only True God"??? Is it Allah, Zeus, Mithra?
julzabro 6 months ago
@julzabro through the BIBLE...
venci27 6 months ago
@venci27 How does one know that the Bible is accurate over ther Torah, the Koran or any other religious Doctrine?
julzabro 6 months ago
@julzabro the bible has the TORAH itself... the KORAN have certain stories similar of those in the Torah..... as for other beliefs... they should make sure that their god(s) are living.... because i can say that i believe in the LIVING ONE.
venci27 6 months ago
@venci27 I know the Old Testament IS the Torah which is only part of the Tanakh. And other beliefs DO claim that their gods are living just like you do.
julzabro 6 months ago
@julzabro well... its a matter of choice... choose the one you are sure of... but don't regret if you chose the wrong one... me... if my God (though i know is not true) is not alive... well, i know This faith made me a loving person and would not regret it....
venci27 6 months ago
@venci27 I don't have any reason to choose ANY of the mythological deities humans have fictionalized about and that has been my whole point to u....which, apparently, u missed. There's no way 2 know that any god is real. Hope can do just as much good in your life as faith and it is actual positive thinking not fake. One doesn't need faith to be loving...in fact, those without it r much more genuine. If u know your God is "not true" y believe?
julzabro 6 months ago
@julzabro i know my God is true.. so i believe...
venci27 6 months ago
@venci27 well, that's great for you but I would say it this way....you want to believe your God is true so you simply claim that you "know" but u really don't know.
julzabro 6 months ago
@julzabro i know he is true... well.. ijust said the thing earlier because some may ask what if my God is not true... i can't persuade them to believe me so that'll be my answer... i know and sure that my God is alive and is true
venci27 6 months ago
@venci27 well, in order to "know", you'd have to have proof. You don't know, you just believe.
julzabro 6 months ago
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@julzabro i know because i have felt it.... it is more than just happiness or whatever you may call it...
venci27 6 months ago
@venci27 Did you read the Bible? And, as I suspected, you blame man for the fall cuz u think the Tree was just there and nothing created it AND you think the snake just so happened to be in the tree and nothing created the sanke and the tree so happened to contain knowledge of good AND evil. You're God had nothing to do with it, right? Adam didn't even HAVE knowledge yet! And where was God when this all went down? God created the scenario 2 which we bcame fallen.
julzabro 7 months ago
@venci27 Y would a god not b reckognized by His own creation unless He's hiding? Supposedly, Adam n Eve KNEW HIM as did most people throughout the Bible. Sure a parent wants 2 brespected but they must earn it! They don't try 2 get respect thru manipulation and creating scenarious in which they can b a savior. Who created eternal death? GOD did! U'll say we did by sinning cuz u refuse to accept that a god, that YOUR GOD, had the power and foresight to know what would happen with that Tree.
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro "He's hiding?" we are not seeking him... He has always been there but few only found him. yes God created eternal death... but it is not for you nor for me... its for those who would reject Him as God over their life... He knew what could happen with that tree.... God tested their obedience...
venci27 7 months ago
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@venci27 No, hell is for me becuz I am a disbeliever. 1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
julzabro 7 months ago
@venci27 Hell is for nonbelievers...for atheists and yeah God knew what would happen with the tree and did it anyways! And what God needs to test anything when He's omniscient?
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro actually... it was good from the start... adam and eve were obeying... but not until the snake comes in and tempted them. HE is omniscient... He knows what you are thinking and where you are going... choices in life leads to destruction or to better life... God knows both direction but it is upto you where you want to Go. if you choose the wrong way God makes a new path for you to be able to go for a better life but it is still again upto you wheteher you choose it or not.
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 Who made the snake?
julzabro 7 months ago
@venci27 So the 1st time you test your child to see if they will obey and you're child is STILL young and without knowledge or wisdom and your child disobeys you, do you punish them forever???
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro It is a very different situation... God is Holy and we are not. because of sin, we bacame as though marked with it. we cannot enter heaven being sinful... the thing that they have done separates them away from God and closer to the devil. when your child leaves, you will try to find them... but it would be upto that child that when you find it, it will come back to you or not.
venci27 7 months ago
@venci27 How and why would a holy entity make a sinful creature? You keep preaching about us needing to be cleansed of our sin instead of addressing the problems with it. Adam n Eve never went anywhere....God did.
julzabro 7 months ago
@venci27 Why didn't God just make us holy/cleansed to begin with? You will say cuz He wanted us to have freewill and I will say it isn't free becuz there is a punishment if we choose option A over option B. So God allowed us to fall so that we'd NEED Him and claims it was so that we'd have freewill but it's not REALLY free.
julzabro 7 months ago
@julzabro he made us holy.... we were without blemish in the very beginning.... why sin entered the world???? it is because adam and eve disobeyed... they were sinless but they gave in to the temptation and disobeyed.
venci27 7 months ago
dude you need a telepromter or something. why did you take all this time to explain nothing. get to the point.GEEEEEEZZZZZZZ!
MrHead1972 1 year ago
@MrHead1972 Sorry mrhead. This video was definitely not made for folks with short attention spans. I was kind enough to warn you in the description that I would be long winded. "The Charlie Bit My Finger" video is right next door and it's only 56 sec.! You may enjoy that more! I know I did! Thanks for watching! I got the view count!
wayman29 1 year ago
@wayman29 glad to b able to help on your veiw count. and your identifying my A.D.D is scary
MrHead1972 1 year ago
This so called Babylonian exile the Christianists keep talking about is all wishfull thinking. I can understand one or two jewish people going into exile but more than two has never been observed by history. This "macro" exile theory is full of holes. Micro exile has been observed many times but this legendary "maro" exile.
wellsbranchdude 1 year ago
people who water down the bible ,also water down the soul cause God gave noone the Autority to change his scriptures through his book..and look people Saying they are Christian,Ghosthunting,psychic reading,calling ufo's are galactic brothers !! People turning from Christ to call themselves a spiritual being are jumping the gun a bit .for it is Christ who decides and turning from him will only keep you where you are now..wishing to be something you have not the power to do on your own.Satans scam
AzOutLawz9 3 years ago
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AzOutLawz9 3 years ago
Yes! biblical history is a problem for some, and for others theological biblical history . And still for others, they are unable to tell the difference..:0)
wayman29 3 years ago
Ummmm,
Let me boil this down for you.........Its about submission to a greater "power".
chiefman03301975 3 years ago
Excellent response. Very well stated. I believe also that the book of Job was intended to express that there IS, indeed, a battle going on between God and Satan. God must let Sin take its course. In the end, we will see that God's way is best. Satan's way brings death. God's way brings life and peace.
Phil T
Evangelander 4 years ago
technique: this is maybe w/o contest, the best work you've done. Still, it's not great work. You dilute any impact by constantly back-and-forthing between the exiles and the character of Job. Now you're on lamentations and Ishtar. Your points on Job are real. all the other shit in this space of time!
cosmicjackpot 4 years ago
Thanks for the kind compliment. Had you read "Lamentations to Ishtar" you may realize how such comparisons cam be drawn. Again see definition of anthropology. Thanks for watching and I possibly still will drive you crazy in the future.
wayman29 4 years ago
That comparisons "can be drawn" is hardly the point. Have you ever taught a class? Have you ever written a paper? It isn't whiskey if it isn't distilled.
Anyway, Satan is "devil's advocate" in Job. Don't tell me to "google anthropology," bitch. I hate these short things for expressing my opinion. Better: gods MORE wicked and unreasonable than humans. Many good points here. good 4 U.
cosmicjackpot 4 years ago
Fuck! It's so frustrating watching you. It's like you could say so much! But you continually dilute your concentration on one point that could hit home by ranging around the whole fucking world! The story is as it is. The time is not enough to discuss every fucking thing in the world that could be associated with it. God, Wayman. focus.
cosmicjackpot 4 years ago
Google the term anthropology
wayman29 4 years ago
But unfortunately not reading Ancient Near East Literature and just the evangelical commentaries on them has done a disservice. I go with the literature not the modern theology on how we are suppose to view the literature.
wayman29 4 years ago
No I said on an earlier video I think your approach is liberal and widespread and that in some traditional thinking is a good idea. It is essentially however very american. My critique is that not to specialise in a theology leads to intellectual disaray. Evangelical modern commentaries are far too fundamentalist protestant for any thinking person! LOL
Dovetulip7 4 years ago
Yes! We agree on something..Excellent..Thanks for disagreeing, It made me think.
wayman29 4 years ago
Thanks, brother. You make a lot of important comments. I'll study it more. God bless!
whistlinphil 4 years ago
No though interesting your argument is flawed. I would say you fail to see the wood because of the trees. Yahweh is nothing like any other deity. The jewish god is not the king/father as in other religions but a dynamic mystery. Suffering in Job is part of humanity and the story means that faith in Yahweh ultimately results in individual life betterment. What is death anyway? Good effort but your analysis rambling this time. Sorry.
Dovetulip7 4 years ago
"No though interesting your argument is flawed." Thanks for your comment. I sure hope I am able to dodge the trees. Who else would Yahweh be if he was not a King/Father that might leave out half the Psalms.
wayman29 4 years ago
Hello Wayman29, I dont mean to insult you cause you at least do cause debate etc. But Yahweh unlike the eastern gods or greek gods or other deities is travelling with his people. The jews allowed for the fact that they would grow in knowledge in TIME itself. Other deities are about being in time so when the people die devotion is threatened. Yahweh is beyong time and his people grow to him and that is unique in the ancient world.
Dovetulip7 4 years ago
The psalms are about a view point in time attributed to David as showing the relationship Israel has to Yahweh. Obviously God is seen as father but it is procative not passive. Unlike pagan deity, Yahweh is about the singular relationship with his people in time, not about perception but about revealling mystery. The psalms borrow texts ideas from elsewhere but they also identify the relationship of yahweh with his People the jews and this is unique in the ancient world.
Dovetulip7 4 years ago
It is most unfortunate that our Ideas about New Testment Theology has distorted the views of the Old Testment. Yahweh was in fact like the other deities of the ancient Near East. The had a three level pantheon, heavenly council, and other characteristics. Example would be the first Chapter of Job and Psalms 82
wayman29 4 years ago
Ezekiel internalized Yahweh for the people after the temple was destroyed. Yahweh like the the gods needed a temple to claim legitimacy in Israel. The Deity El from the Canaanite Pantheon transcended time because he was integrated in with the characteristics of Yahweh. It was El who was first call Ancient of Days..
wayman29 4 years ago
Such occurrences happen even today with the deities. Baal later over took El,also and a Modern example would be Christ over taking the deity Yahweh. It's a progression that happens. You can read it in the literature.
wayman29 4 years ago
First it was Yahweh slaying death and the serpent , then in the New Testment It's Christ over coming Death in the resurrection. Also stories of Christ slaying the dragon in Revelation would apply. Which in Daniel was applied to Yahweh.
wayman29 4 years ago
Yahweh creates death in result of disobedience, I am unaware that he slays it? Christ overcomes death in the NT but he does it for humanity not for himself. Revelation like Daniel is a vision not a reality as such. Like all visions its interpretation depends upon certain traditions not necessarily those from the Reformation.
Dovetulip7 4 years ago
Calm down, dont lose it. Baal is not El and Christ does not replace Yahweh even in Christian theology. According to Christianity Christ Jesus is the son of The Father of the same being. Yahweh remains as His father and as Jesus acknowledges in the Gospel, being a good jew that he was. You dont read a progressive takeover in literature as it is not there!
Dovetulip7 4 years ago
I agree that it is the case that sometimes NT does distort OT ideas. It is not true that Yahweh ever had a pantheon as like Greece or Egypt or other states. It is true that Yahweh remains singular and alone, unique, almighty. If beings come before him as they do it is to show his power. Moses stands before God but is not an equal. Also dont forget that other gods exist in the OT but before Yahweh they are as nothing.
Dovetulip7 4 years ago
I agree with you, Dove, that Yahweh and the other gods are different.
whistlinphil 4 years ago
I like listening to you!
theimfamousnoah 4 years ago
Thanks!
wayman29 4 years ago
makes me wanna read it all again
artdecocoz 4 years ago
Yeah, I've never been satisified by the whole, "My ways are above your ways" brush-off. I appreciate your Exilic approach though, because that is in fact the historical context of this text. A timely study.... Thanks. :)
smadewell 4 years ago
Wayman is a good student, uisn't he? Someday, I'll make more than my pretty worthless driving vlogs.
whistlinphil 4 years ago