DEBATE12 Part5 Does Botany Support Creation or Evolution time 36min to 45min

[ikinmoore]

Hello again

I am not whining at all. I think you are wound up to much defending your lord and master Mr Hovind. How can you respect a man who is guilty of tax fraud. We all have to pay taxes ! And he believes in fairy stories callec Creation !

[HovindSeminarSet]

@ikinmoore Actually I am getting bored of your same lame arguments which repeat themselves despite that fact that I have answered them. Kent is not guilty of tax fraud. He is guilty of protesting taxes. Many people go to jail for protesting. SO WHAT! You believe that you came from a rock! That is a fairytale! You have double standards.

[ikinmoore]

You have to pay taxes even if you don't like the way Goverments spend your money. Hovind is in prison for a crime !!!

I believe I am an animal and I came from an ape like creature many many years ago. THAT IS A FACT !!!!!!!!! HOVIND IS A LIAR AND A FRAUD. OKAY THIS IS A FACT !!!

the fact is you cannot prove Creation and you use strawmans arguments all the time. You won't move from your opinions because people like you are still in the middle ages ! Some Americans can be fooled !!

[HovindSeminarSet]

@ikinmoore No, actually you have to pay taxes if you don't like the way the Government spends it. I have a choice each day and free will. It was illegal in Nazi Germany to protect a Jew, what would you have done? You can believe you are an animal, that would explain your behavior. It is not a fact, it is not even science. There is no scientific evidence for macro-evolution. When I see the evidence, i come to the conclusion that there is a creator. Your statements are silly and unsophisticated!

[ikinmoore]

I am glad you have a choice in this world. Religious people who have authorite tend to want to control the masses who are ignorent of science. The fact that Hovind did not obey the law of the land, he is in prison. You HAVE TO pay tax no matter what the Goverment spends it on. So the Goverment was correct to put him there.

Let me ask you a question ? If there is a Creator then why the hell did he creat animals which kill each other ! Please don't give me "Original Sin" nonsence !our

[HovindSeminarSet]

@ikinmoore no more about taxes ok? Hovind clearly and publically protested and went to jail for what he protested like thousands of others, get over it. It is a moot point and this forum is to focus on what he said, not on his personal life.

as for your question: The bible clearly teaches animals did NOT kill each other in the garden of eden. Animals and humans were both created vegatarians. Noah was the first person God authorized to eat meat and was told only to drain the blood first.

[ikinmoore]

Okay...lets face it Hovind is a Liar and a thief !!!!!! He stole from the law biding tax payers of America !

If you belive in the fairy stories of the bible such as Noah authorizing that humans can eat meat then you really do need a science lession ! We have evoled(oh that word again) to eat animals. Look at our teeth and you will see. We also evoled to stand up and hunt our prey just like the cat, bear, and fox. Look at their teeth and you will see fangs for ripping food.

[HovindSeminarSet]

@ikinmoore The only thing I have to face when i read your posts are that you can not get the concept that protesting taxes is congruent with is position. You twist things to say that witholding ones own income tax is equivelent with stealing from other Americans. What is clear is that you don't know how to interpret evidence but insist on using evidence to fabricate a perspective that supports your ego.

[ikinmoore]

What rubbish you talk about. !!!!!!

If you don't pay taxes then how can you have the services from the Goverment which are vital to the people. Police, schools, health care, ect ect

So Hovind decided to not pay those taxes. What a very selfish man. It is stealing !!

You do NOT interpret evidence, you have to see it (in a court of law) in order to confirm what the truth is. Hovind had a trail and it confirm through evidence that he was guilty. OKAY !! Evidence is the truth.

[HovindSeminarSet]

@ikinmoore I am not here to debate whether or not we should have taxes. I am only defending Kent's right to protest and accept the consequences of his actions. I pay taxes but none the less I know he was taking a stand for what he believes in as opposed to being some selfish hording hypocrite as you would like to make me believe.

If you have to see "evidence" to believe it, why do you believe in Evolution? Everybody knows kent is guilty. We only disagree as to his motives. This was no scam!

[ikinmoore]

Explain to me about the stars which are millions of light years away can be seen from the sky.. If the earth is only 6000 we would not be able to see those stars....

Hovind is a fool and a thief

[HovindSeminarSet]

@ikinmoore prooving stars are "millioins of light years away" is different from prooving stars are millions of years old. Our creationist world view supports the first. We believe Adam and Eve were created in a mature state. We believe the Garden of Eden was created in mature state, not 'planted". Adam was a grown man, he was not put on earth by God as a sperm. The Light was also created in place. This does not prove they are a certain "age"

[ikinmoore]

@HovindSeminarSet

As the stars are millions of light years away...the light cannot get to us if the world is only 6000 years old. These stars are millions of years old there is no doubt about it.

Why do you belive in this fairystory of Adam was a grown man !!!!! is there prove !!! And eve came from his rib.......this is just a supernatural fairystory written by those who did not know much about science.

[HovindSeminarSet]

@ikinmoore yes creation is faith and a theory. the supernatural creation we believe in testified in the Bible is not the science we use as evidence for the theory. Unlike evolutionists, we know how to distinguish between science and theory.

The biblical creationist account describes a MATURE creation. Adam was created in an adult state. The plants and animals in creation were created in an mature state. Therefore it is consistant to believe the stars and light we get from the stars r mature

[ikinmoore]

Is there any prove that in the begining everything was in a "Matured state". You are saying that they did not come from seed or sperm or egg.

Science could never produce this theory in a main stream science book. It would be laugh at.

I have just read Hovind's college paper on the net. He is no university scientist. His grammer and spelling is rubbish. And what he states in NOT science. The man is an idiot and cannot be taken seriously.

[HovindSeminarSet]

@ikinmoore is there any proof? Did you watch the seminar videos? Kent gives a ton of evidence for a young earth.

Why is it evolutionists always like to attack Kent Hovind and not address his points. Is it because you don't like what he said? is it too threatening?

[ikinmoore]

Threating !!!!!!!

The guy is an idiot. Any Scientist with any logical mind would know his taking rubbish. He has no proof at all. All Kent states that it is in the bible.

When you state that Adam had no childhood......makes me think that you have read a fairystory book for adults. I have watch the rubbish Kent speaks about. Scientists laugh at him for being such an idiot. Now have you seen Richard Dawkins videos. There is a man who knows the truth !

[HovindSeminarSet]

@ikinmoore You really miss the point huh? Was it hard for you to pay attention in school. If you watched the videos and you came the conclusion that all kents statements are from the bible, it is no wonder your scientific reasoning has gotten you to where you are today. Did you miss the part about a young earth, carbon dating? 2nd law of thermodynamics? the geologic column? sea fossils on Mt. Everest? You missed the boat Ikinmoore!

[ikinmoore]

Of course all Kent statements come from the bible !! I did not doubt that !! The Bible is mistaken written by men who knew nothing about science !

Why are scientists like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, ect ect......do not agree with Hovind. ?? Because (I am being polite about this) Hovind is mistaken. Scientist tend to want to seek out evidence. No evidence then it cannot be true.

Why do you belive in every thing Hovind says !! He really has a dig at evolution doest he !

[HovindSeminarSet]

@ikinmoore Your beef is with the bible, not with Kent.

Funny how all these people over the past 6,000 years knew nothing about science and yet got science correct on all accounts where a scientific statement is mentioned.

Richard Dawkins is an athiest with an agenda. Did you see the movie "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed"? You will learn more about Richard Dawkins there. Great movie by Ben Stein.

I don't believe everything that Hovind says, I believe everything that the bible says.

[ikinmoore]

My beef is with Mr Hovind.

The bible was written by men who knew nothing about the world as we know it today.

Richard Dawkins is a brilliant scientist. He does try to make people think rather then lead them to religious movements where you are expected to believe in their authorite. I have not seen "Expelled" but have seen "Creation" which was about Darwin. Now he thought for him himself and questioned nature. Brilliant man. !

You are now making sense in not believing Mr Hovind.

[HovindSeminarSet]

@ikinmoore What did Hovind say that makes you so angry?

The bible was written by inspiration of God. What does the bible say that would indicate to you that the authors knew nothing of science? Have you ever read the bible?

Richard Dawkins is an Athiest is actively opposes God to promote his religious beliefs in athiesm. You should watch the movie, it has a surprise ending exposing Dawkins for what he really is. He actually entertains the idea that an alien started earch, LOL

[ikinmoore]

Yes I have read the Bible. Adam and Eve had children. The children must have comitted incest in order to reproduce the human race. Noah was over 900 years old !!!!!!!! And so were many characters from his generation !

Hovind goes one step further and speaks about water above the sky when Adam and Eve were on the earth in the garden of eden. All fairy stories !

Richard Dawkins theory about "Aliens starting earth" need evidence before I even believe that.

What is wrong with Athiesm ?

[HovindSeminarSet]

@ikinmoore Incest is a biblical concept started a couple thousands years after Adam and Eve. It would not cause the same kind of genetic deformations it causes today. Evolution requires incest as well. Yes Noah was over 900 years old. Evolutionists also have a jurrasic error where everything was much bigger including dragon flys with 3 foot wing spans and 2 feet long cock roaches. there is much evidence that things were different. Water in the sky is in Genesis. Watch the movie. athiesm is dead

[ikinmoore]

Athiesm is growing fast. You are mistaken. So you believe incest in those days would not cause any genetic deformations in those Biblical. Where do you get your evidence from !? Noah was 900 years old. Again where is the evidence. Apart from the bible you have no record/evidence of anything you believe in. Of course animals were different millions of years ago. It is clearly a fact in fossils. It is called Evolution due to animals adapting to their eviorment.

There is no God !

[HovindSeminarSet]

@ikinmoore were you tired when you wrote this? You believe in incest also if you believe in evolution! where did the first humans come from? A variety of other humans? I don't think so! It is a theory, it is your burden to disprove it, otherwise it remains a valid theory. Don't you know how science works?

I have no evidence of the flood? There are hundreds of cultures that record a flood in the origins of their history.

Did you watch any of the videos? Hovind drops tons of evidence. Fos

[ikinmoore]

Where did the first humans come from you ask. They did NOT ping out as an adult. Yes, over time they evolved !!! From an ape like creature. Yes there are fossils of these creatures. The varieties of humans you talk about developed because the climate changed over thousands and thousands of years. Incest is in nature yet the Bible doesn't allow this. Only Adam's children must have committe the incest act but it was forbiden by "God" . Why does the Bible keep changing the rules.?????

[HovindSeminarSet]

@ikinmoore I did not ask where the first humans came from. I know where they came from. I merely pointed out that evolution requires incest the same as adam and eve. Incest did not become a law forbidden by God until 2000 years after adam and eve with Moses.

what fossils of these creatures? LOL

Why does bible change rules? Well, when you were a child, you were restricted to a crib, when you got older you had a curfew. Now hopefully you are independent. Were the rules changed on you?

[HovindSeminarSet]

@ikinmoore You think fossils prove evolution? of course you do! LOL Fossils only prove that something died. Fossils do not prove the age of anything nor do fossils prove the thing that died had kids or that their kids were any different then they were! Fossils don't prove evolution!

[ikinmoore]

How naive you are. Fossils and DNA prove beyond any reasonable doubt that evolution took place.  Now please prove to me that the earth is 6000.years old. Please prove to me that the earth took only six days to be made !

[HovindSeminarSet]

@ikinmoore Did you read my post. Fossils ONLY prove something died. Fossils don't have dates stamped on them nor are they evidence that they had children let alond a different kind of animal child. LOL

Do you think because you SAY that proves it that it actually proves it just because you SAY so? LOL

You ask me to prove a miracle, i.e. 6 day creation. It would not be a miracle if I could prove it naturally. The burden of proof is on you!

There are many proofs for a young earth!

[ikinmoore]

No this is a strawman arguement. You have no proof what so ever that the earth is young. Science doesn't believe in faith or a miracle. DNA and fossill are proof !! I am not an expert but when I see fossils of dinosaurs and an expert tells me that they walked the earth a few millions ago I tend to go along with that because it is logically. I don't believe in supernatural or "God" made it. This is a strawman view and not scienctive...

[HovindSeminarSet]

@ikinmoore, there are many evidences, did you watch the video, evidence by the sun, the moon, the population curve, the flood.

Science is great, evolution is a religious.

DNA proves that we have an incredible creator.

Fossils only prove something died.

It is not logically to see fossils and beleive they lived millions of years ago. Fossils do not come with a date stamped on them. If you understood carbon dating, you would know the problems with current dating methods.

[ikinmoore]

There are no evidences in the video !!!!!

I have no problems with Carbon dating and trust the methods.

I believe in Science. Religious people always have a hidden agenda (let make money out of it) yet most science has logic ! You should watch Thunderfoots videos. He is brilliant.

Science has saved my life many times(medically) so I trust those who study it.(no hidden agenda)

I enjoy our conversations so I look forward to the next message from you.

[HovindSeminarSet]

@ikinmoore "no evidence in the video"? next time, turn your TV off while you are watching the video so you don't miss ALL THE EVIDENCE!

Of course you trust Carbon Dating, that is why you arrive at all your erroneous conclusions.

Evolution and Atheism are RELIGIOUS. you "TRUSTING" the scientists is no different than someone "Trusting" a priest.

Funny how you say, "most science has logic". LOL

I love science also, that is why I am compelled to purifiy it of this evolution religion

[ikinmoore]

If I did not trust a scientist then I would be dead by now. Trust comes when you can see logic in what they say. Just because YOU do not believe in Cardon Dating it doesn't mean it is not a true measurement of a time scale.

Evolution is NOT a religion. I don't worship it or go to a church and it is not man-made like religion is. A man like Hovind is a Fraud. I guess he has made lots of money out of his views!

[HovindSeminarSet]

@ikinmoore, What i meant was don't 'trusts' a scientist "just" because they are a scientist. They are prone to fail and be incorrect the same as any other human. And when something they say is illogical, it should be investigated.

I believe in Carbon Dating, I just know its parameters and limitations.

You use evolution to explain the meaning of life, the origin of the universe etc. and the origin of life. This is relgious in nature.

Wrong, he uses is money to spread information!

[ikinmoore]

I agree with your first atatement. Scientists are humans and by making mistakes they learn far more about the nature ans enviroment then someone who looks at the bible and believes everything it. I attack Hovind because he believes the bible is the truth when it is not. Leviticus is wrong in many ways.

[HovindSeminarSet]

@ikinmoore I too believe the bible is 100% true. If you are going to make statements that it is not true, please back it up with stating where or why instead of empty accusations.

Why can't somebody who looks at the bible ALSO look at science, they are not exclusive. In fact most great scientists like Newton was motivated to study science because of his understanding of an organized creation.

As for Leviticus, what EXACTLY do you hav a problem with?

[ikinmoore]

I have no problems with Leviticus. Many rules are full of common sense.

Apart from killing a child for cursing it's parent, a man should not lie with his brother'swife, a man should not lie with another man, wearing different materials, ect ect ect. Again rules for ancient people. They are not true with todays modern society. Fortunely we have come along way since those days.

[HovindSeminarSet]

@ikinmoore, i agree those rules do not apply today. The bible makes this clear. Not liking rules of the past are not EVIDENCE for the bible not being true. You have do better than that if you want to say the bible is not true.

[ikinmoore]

I knew you were going to say they do not apply today. At last we agree !!!! YES !!!

So Noah was over 900 years old. Okay have you any proof of this apart from the bible.

[HovindSeminarSet]

@ikinmoore, I think it was Adam who lived 900 years old. After the flood, under different environmental conditions, Noah and everybody else started living up to about 100 yrs.

Whet evidence would you expect to see? We do have evidence that evolutionists claim are from the jurrasic era. This would include animals we observe today in enormous sizes. i.e. 3 foot cockroaches, 2.5 foot wingspans of dragon flies. many many creatures 1,000 times larger in fossils. This indicates envoronmental cond

[HovindSeminarSet]

@ikinmoore. There is lots of evidence that envirnmental conditions were different previously. We find air bubbles in amber with 30% more oxygen. we find human fossils of people 14 feet tall. etc.

[ikinmoore]

Human of people 14 feet tall.....which website did you see that on ?????

[HovindSeminarSet]

@ikinmoore, well, I will graciously bow out of the argument for the taller people because the evidene is not strong and that specific point is not necessary for the argument. But if you are interested in learning more anyway, you can research some of the background to theories of sasquatch, big foot, and Gigantopithecus.

A 19'6" human skeleton found in 1577 A.D. under an overturned oak tree in the Canton of Lucerne.

[HovindSeminarSet]

A 9' 8" skeleton excavated near Brewersville, Indiana (Indianapolis News, Nov 10, 1975).

15-foot human skeleton found southeast Turkey in late 1950's in the Euphrates valley.

A mound near Toledo, Ohio, held 20 skeletons, seated and facing east with jaws and teeth "twice as large as those of present day people," and besides each was a large bowl with "curiously wrought hieroglyphic figures." (Chicago Record, Oct. 24, 1895; cited by Ron G. Dobbins, NEARA Journal, v13, fall 1978).

[ikinmoore]

I cannot believe how stupid the Americans are !!!!!!! What complete Rubbish this is ! Hovind is a liar !

[HovindSeminarSet]

Sorry to get your panties in a bunch! You sound like a five year old who just found out he lost a race. Do you always through out empty accusations when you whine?