I always kind of wondered what would happen if this took place in late season 3 and they were making these hilariously pushy requests of Ulkesh/Kosh 2: Electric Boogaloo.
Tharg: Hello, ancient psychic alien! Tell the commander of this ship to force the ship doctor not to do his job!
anyone remember when kosh VERY first met sinclair? (well fake sinclair, but anyways..) and his first words were entilzar vahlen?? if one were to have a perfect memory then the reveal in season 3 (the biggest/best ive ever seen on tv) wouldnt have been a twist at all!
@bigabs18281 : That dialogue was added in the special edition of the pilot. According to JMS, it was an internal monologue by Kosh and not actually spoken to the fake Sinclair.
@Vistico93 oh wow ok, so was that spec edition released a lot later? as in, after season 3? so what it was kosh talking to himself?? either way it was all unknown to me i watched all of B5 years after it came out, then when i went for my second viewing of the series (a year later) i just rented the only copy of The Gathering that i could find, must have been the sp ed i suppose... Cheers btw :)
@bigabs18281 The pilot had to be edited/redone for multiple reasons, though I'm not sure exactly when it happened. One big example of the need: The original pilot referred to Sinclair as the last commander of Babylon 5, since the idea to replace him with Sheridan was made midway into Season 1 and was not part of the original plan.
@suchiuomizu wow, didnt know that, cheers, i thought that was always part of the plan.. didnt jms think the whole thing through before it even started?? wonder what made him decide to remove snclair??
@gasdfw5 I think that one of the meanings (Out of twelve) for this statement, based on the myth arc of the series, is that once Franz Ferdinand dies, WWI is inevitable. All that the people can do is then ride it out and see what it looks like on the other side. Or in the current world, once Mohamed Bouazizi self-immolates, the world will change. Once these major events start, no one is able to stop them any longer.
@KellAnderson Like events caused by larger aspects are sweeping and typically take the smaller things with them whether they want it or not -- such as pebbles in an avalanche of boulders. The pebbles don't get a vote when the large boulders decide to fall.
I don't think anyone can tell you what Kosh means, but his answers usually make more sense when you have more information.
When Sheridan asked what Kosh would be teaching him, and Kosh replied "Beauty in the darkness", Sheridan was confused, but later agreed those words described it exactly. When Kosh said that if he were seen without his encounter suit, he "would be recognized" "by everyone", ... if you've seen the relevant episode, you know what he meant.
@gasdfw5 It could mean everything and nothing, that's not really the point: his speaking in metaphours narratively reinforces Kosh's utter diinterest in petty affairs such as he considers this one.
It's the culminating point of this scene: no-one wishes to take a stand in this affair, not the Narn nor the Centauri nor the Minbari, not even a godly race such as the Vorlons.
Kosh is saying that your child is dieing and can't wait for a political hearings to decide what is best for the child... Given your people have decide to not assign an ambassador to the station. You and the Doctor can only make this decision in a timely manner... Also, this saying can be used other cirumstances... hehe ; )
I like to read online news from different countries, one of those countries being japan. Where i live people know of jehova witnesses and their rules about blood transfussions people argue over it, but its understood and legally accepted that they have this right. The japanese article read along the lines of parents suing hospital over saving childs life, are believed to be members of a cult. Exposure often effects perception to ridiculousness of superstition.
Kosh probably wasn't even listening. "Lady I got an interstellar with an ancient enemy to deal with, I can't worry about your season one, standalone episode problems."
@BrandonGK Precisely. This was a well-meaning episode, but flawed. A long-time meme in the show's first couple of seasons was that hardly anyone got to see the Vorlons. In one episode an Earth news crew was thrilled to even get a fleeting shot of Kosh, and yet these two nobodies get face time with him over a personal problem?
@Bfdidc Many possible reasons Kosh would have met with them. The Vorlons may not have met this species and he was sizing them up for the war, or he wanted to hear about the issue to see how it reflected on the other ambassadors who had turned it down or with so few Vorlons maybe child-related cultural issues are of some passing interest, or he wanted to develop Franklin in this particular manner, or he was just chatty then. Kosh always has a reason. Usually four reasons nested inside each other.
What he meant was that the events are already in progress, so it didn't matter whether the council agreed or not. What would be, would be. Regardless of their choices.
The point of this episode was that we should be ruled by compassion, not superstition.
Those incredibly idiotic, stupid children of the egg. The doctor had him all helped out with a surgery and then the two parents killed the child because of their bullshit religion.
For some strange reason I don't think that was the point of the show. If anything B5 respected all religions no matter what, and I think that episode was addressing something that happened in the 90's with the Jehovah's Witness. I have to agree with you that they are idiots though. Never let religion get so deep that you can't ask for help.
@lurconis666 people and wildlife die every day because of nothing. Nature kills for no reason at all, and trying to hide behind science as the ultimate Law is useless. Evolution happens spasmodically, and ultimately without purpose. Ur attempts to insult religion merely show your own lack of intellect
@dchris1990 The child died because the parents denied him medical care and then murdered him in cold blood because of religious conviction. That can't even remotely compare to organisms killing eachother for survival. In relation to wildlife, Chinese 'medicine'? I suppose you've never heard of that?
Evolution has nothing to do with this and I sure as hell don't try to hide behind science as the ultimate law. Your straw man and ad hominem reasoning is a testimony to your intellectual weakness.
@lurconis666 not all organisms kill themselves just for survival. a ferret would wipe out a chicken coop, and only eat one of the score it kills. Humans kill sometimes for no reason, just for the enjoyment, as do dolphins on baby seals. I actually didnt see this episode before, i just wanted to point out that Nature is impersonal. It is not a Deity to be admired
I just love the Vorlons. Everything they say has not one meaning, but at least three different meanings. Here, Kosh could be referring to the events of "The Gathering" (most probably), or he could be referring to the coming war, or he could be referring to the Vorlon philosophy of collective over individual. It is possible that it's all at once. Maybe there are even more dimensions in his words we haven't seen yet.
@Tarvoc Actually, what he was referring to was in three parts. The first part was if they didn't want Dr. Franklin to do the procedure they shouldn't have let him examine the boy. The second part is they already did an unwelcome procedure on me so I didn't get a vote either. Finally, you should have come to us long before you let Sinclair decide what's right or not. Gotta love Vorlon perspective and understanding.
@Tarvoc, I always found his character full of mistery. When he was killed by the Shadows the New Embassador came in with a new, more aggresive and dangerous agenda.
@Tarvoc I find your admiration of the Vorlons a little unjustified. Cool Kosh was a special Vorlon, he was open to reason and change. He knew that Vorlon/Shadows cycle of perpetual wars had to end. The new Kosh was a normal Vorlon, intolerant, dictatorial and unreasonable.
The Shadows were actually far more democratic than the Vorlons.
@AllTheseWorldsAreUrs Its been a while since I watched B5, but I don't think thats accurate. The shadows were more anarchistic, and if they didn't appear to be such a hive mind, I'd say individualistic in their philosophy. They were the opposite extreme from democracy from the Vorlon's autocratic pole.
Good show but I never much cared for this episode. And how did these two nobodies get in to see all the ambassadors? Especially Kosh, whom the series made very clear, was very mysterious to outsiders and virtually unapproachable.
@Bfdidc That has been a beef of mine as well. I suppose realistically it is because the show was still fairly new and figuring itself out, giving us this inconsistency in his behavior. In universe, the other ambassadors may have had an obligation to speak to these people, who were unknown to them, in an effort to size them up for their actual/potential value. As for Kosh, I just want to believe that he happened to be flowing through the hallway and these jerks just wouldn't stop talking to him.
Kosh is just too kool for skool
Lava91point0 8 hours ago
I actually used Kosh as part of a philosphy project. He's just that wonderful.
DrMalHarkness 1 week ago
I always kind of wondered what would happen if this took place in late season 3 and they were making these hilariously pushy requests of Ulkesh/Kosh 2: Electric Boogaloo.
Tharg: Hello, ancient psychic alien! Tell the commander of this ship to force the ship doctor not to do his job!
Ulkesh: Nope. *switches into bugzapper mode*
abridgedfanboy 2 months ago 2
I always wondered how this race got into space ? Their culture doesn't seem to give much room for science...
finalcut75 4 months ago 3
@finalcut75 Their culture is very, VERY old. It would origonally ahve been less ridged.
Erynnsilver 2 months ago
anyone remember when kosh VERY first met sinclair? (well fake sinclair, but anyways..) and his first words were entilzar vahlen?? if one were to have a perfect memory then the reveal in season 3 (the biggest/best ive ever seen on tv) wouldnt have been a twist at all!
bigabs18281 6 months ago
@bigabs18281 : That dialogue was added in the special edition of the pilot. According to JMS, it was an internal monologue by Kosh and not actually spoken to the fake Sinclair.
Vistico93 4 months ago
@Vistico93 oh wow ok, so was that spec edition released a lot later? as in, after season 3? so what it was kosh talking to himself?? either way it was all unknown to me i watched all of B5 years after it came out, then when i went for my second viewing of the series (a year later) i just rented the only copy of The Gathering that i could find, must have been the sp ed i suppose... Cheers btw :)
bigabs18281 4 months ago
@bigabs18281 The pilot had to be edited/redone for multiple reasons, though I'm not sure exactly when it happened. One big example of the need: The original pilot referred to Sinclair as the last commander of Babylon 5, since the idea to replace him with Sheridan was made midway into Season 1 and was not part of the original plan.
suchiuomizu 2 months ago
@suchiuomizu wow, didnt know that, cheers, i thought that was always part of the plan.. didnt jms think the whole thing through before it even started?? wonder what made him decide to remove snclair??
bigabs18281 2 months ago
He's already had an unwelcome procedure done to him. I don't think he cares.
salamut2202 6 months ago
Vorlons are dicks
assdickmkgee 8 months ago
@assdickmkgee They just see is grander terms and it has caused them to lose sight of the smaller ones.
OneTrueEdge 7 months ago 2
@gasdfw5 I think that one of the meanings (Out of twelve) for this statement, based on the myth arc of the series, is that once Franz Ferdinand dies, WWI is inevitable. All that the people can do is then ride it out and see what it looks like on the other side. Or in the current world, once Mohamed Bouazizi self-immolates, the world will change. Once these major events start, no one is able to stop them any longer.
KellAnderson 8 months ago
@KellAnderson Like events caused by larger aspects are sweeping and typically take the smaller things with them whether they want it or not -- such as pebbles in an avalanche of boulders. The pebbles don't get a vote when the large boulders decide to fall.
OneTrueEdge 7 months ago
He probably turned away and thought "Bet that confused 'em, won't trouble me again.. I'm so awesomely mysterious..Yes"
explorer47422 8 months ago 2
Why have just one meaning when a dozen at once will do? :))
rakkav 9 months ago 2
Didn't the doctor of babylon 5 already perform an unwelcome procedure on him?
zxcvbnm35125 9 months ago
@zxcvbnm35125 Yeah, in the pilot. That line made me laugh.
ImperialAtlantis 7 months ago
@gasdfw5
I don't think anyone can tell you what Kosh means, but his answers usually make more sense when you have more information.
When Sheridan asked what Kosh would be teaching him, and Kosh replied "Beauty in the darkness", Sheridan was confused, but later agreed those words described it exactly. When Kosh said that if he were seen without his encounter suit, he "would be recognized" "by everyone", ... if you've seen the relevant episode, you know what he meant.
Spy0ne 11 months ago
YES
JamesraynorII 11 months ago
@gasdfw5 It could mean everything and nothing, that's not really the point: his speaking in metaphours narratively reinforces Kosh's utter diinterest in petty affairs such as he considers this one.
It's the culminating point of this scene: no-one wishes to take a stand in this affair, not the Narn nor the Centauri nor the Minbari, not even a godly race such as the Vorlons.
Such is the nature of politics.
MoltenPlastic 1 year ago
Kosh is saying that your child is dieing and can't wait for a political hearings to decide what is best for the child... Given your people have decide to not assign an ambassador to the station. You and the Doctor can only make this decision in a timely manner... Also, this saying can be used other cirumstances... hehe ; )
KOSH963 1 year ago
He simply meant that the boy would die anyway. All means lead to the same end.
If people are willing to give in to superstition then there is no way to salvation.
pcuimac 1 year ago
I love that statement. The combination of snow analogy with beach analogy is very drastic. Love it.
ordelljones 1 year ago
I like to read online news from different countries, one of those countries being japan. Where i live people know of jehova witnesses and their rules about blood transfussions people argue over it, but its understood and legally accepted that they have this right. The japanese article read along the lines of parents suing hospital over saving childs life, are believed to be members of a cult. Exposure often effects perception to ridiculousness of superstition.
GhostInTheShell29 1 year ago
The times I've wasted watching contemporary STAR TREK when I should've been tuning in to BABYLON 5.
Bla31n 1 year ago 9
Kosh probably wasn't even listening. "Lady I got an interstellar with an ancient enemy to deal with, I can't worry about your season one, standalone episode problems."
BrandonGK 1 year ago 72
@BrandonGK Precisely. This was a well-meaning episode, but flawed. A long-time meme in the show's first couple of seasons was that hardly anyone got to see the Vorlons. In one episode an Earth news crew was thrilled to even get a fleeting shot of Kosh, and yet these two nobodies get face time with him over a personal problem?
Bfdidc 10 months ago
@Bfdidc Many possible reasons Kosh would have met with them. The Vorlons may not have met this species and he was sizing them up for the war, or he wanted to hear about the issue to see how it reflected on the other ambassadors who had turned it down or with so few Vorlons maybe child-related cultural issues are of some passing interest, or he wanted to develop Franklin in this particular manner, or he was just chatty then. Kosh always has a reason. Usually four reasons nested inside each other.
DorianArcher 9 months ago
It makes perfect sense...Kosh is, after all, the very precedent being invoked. Kosh himself was perhaps the person LEAST able to act...
MitchellTF 1 year ago
Nice to see Meatloaf playing a native American that's had an accident with a hot iron.
Concreteowl 1 year ago 2
What he meant was that the events are already in progress, so it didn't matter whether the council agreed or not. What would be, would be. Regardless of their choices.
The point of this episode was that we should be ruled by compassion, not superstition.
chaostribbles 1 year ago 6
Such a terrible episode for such a great quote.
Antenox 1 year ago 2
Those incredibly idiotic, stupid children of the egg. The doctor had him all helped out with a surgery and then the two parents killed the child because of their bullshit religion.
lurconis666 2 years ago
For some strange reason I don't think that was the point of the show. If anything B5 respected all religions no matter what, and I think that episode was addressing something that happened in the 90's with the Jehovah's Witness. I have to agree with you that they are idiots though. Never let religion get so deep that you can't ask for help.
smcneal057 1 year ago
@lurconis666 So linked to real life, isn't it?
jiveturkey25 1 year ago 2
@jiveturkey25 It sure is, people and wild life die every day because of some silly superstition or religious bullshit.
lurconis666 1 year ago
@lurconis666 people and wildlife die every day because of nothing. Nature kills for no reason at all, and trying to hide behind science as the ultimate Law is useless. Evolution happens spasmodically, and ultimately without purpose. Ur attempts to insult religion merely show your own lack of intellect
dchris1990 1 year ago
@dchris1990 The child died because the parents denied him medical care and then murdered him in cold blood because of religious conviction. That can't even remotely compare to organisms killing eachother for survival. In relation to wildlife, Chinese 'medicine'? I suppose you've never heard of that?
Evolution has nothing to do with this and I sure as hell don't try to hide behind science as the ultimate law. Your straw man and ad hominem reasoning is a testimony to your intellectual weakness.
lurconis666 1 year ago
@lurconis666 not all organisms kill themselves just for survival. a ferret would wipe out a chicken coop, and only eat one of the score it kills. Humans kill sometimes for no reason, just for the enjoyment, as do dolphins on baby seals. I actually didnt see this episode before, i just wanted to point out that Nature is impersonal. It is not a Deity to be admired
dchris1990 1 year ago
Damn Kosh...I am going to try and remember that line when I need it in a conversation.
smcneal057 2 years ago 4
I just love the Vorlons. Everything they say has not one meaning, but at least three different meanings. Here, Kosh could be referring to the events of "The Gathering" (most probably), or he could be referring to the coming war, or he could be referring to the Vorlon philosophy of collective over individual. It is possible that it's all at once. Maybe there are even more dimensions in his words we haven't seen yet.
Tarvoc 2 years ago 34
@Tarvoc "Understanding is a three-edged sword"
babylon218 10 months ago
@Tarvoc Actually, what he was referring to was in three parts. The first part was if they didn't want Dr. Franklin to do the procedure they shouldn't have let him examine the boy. The second part is they already did an unwelcome procedure on me so I didn't get a vote either. Finally, you should have come to us long before you let Sinclair decide what's right or not. Gotta love Vorlon perspective and understanding.
Ryooken 6 months ago
@Tarvoc, I always found his character full of mistery. When he was killed by the Shadows the New Embassador came in with a new, more aggresive and dangerous agenda.
Wolfen443 3 months ago
@Tarvoc I find your admiration of the Vorlons a little unjustified. Cool Kosh was a special Vorlon, he was open to reason and change. He knew that Vorlon/Shadows cycle of perpetual wars had to end. The new Kosh was a normal Vorlon, intolerant, dictatorial and unreasonable.
The Shadows were actually far more democratic than the Vorlons.
AllTheseWorldsAreUrs 3 months ago
@AllTheseWorldsAreUrs Its been a while since I watched B5, but I don't think thats accurate. The shadows were more anarchistic, and if they didn't appear to be such a hive mind, I'd say individualistic in their philosophy. They were the opposite extreme from democracy from the Vorlon's autocratic pole.
Cafeeine 2 months ago
@AllTheseWorldsAreUrs That's what made this show's conclusion so great. Order and Chaos are both unsustainable in extreem. It was couch philosophy.
Erynnsilver 2 months ago
Good show but I never much cared for this episode. And how did these two nobodies get in to see all the ambassadors? Especially Kosh, whom the series made very clear, was very mysterious to outsiders and virtually unapproachable.
Bfdidc 2 years ago 2
@Bfdidc That has been a beef of mine as well. I suppose realistically it is because the show was still fairly new and figuring itself out, giving us this inconsistency in his behavior. In universe, the other ambassadors may have had an obligation to speak to these people, who were unknown to them, in an effort to size them up for their actual/potential value. As for Kosh, I just want to believe that he happened to be flowing through the hallway and these jerks just wouldn't stop talking to him.
Vistico93 4 months ago
The same actress who played the President at the battle of the line.
FunnyHedger 3 years ago 5
The avalanche has already started it is to late for the pebles to vote. Cryptic and it made little sense yep he's a vorlon alright
thrawn323 4 years ago 7
Kosh is referring to what happened to him in "The Gathering".
gds0117 4 years ago 2
i was refering to the fact that most of what kosh says is confusing in general unless you can make sense of how he speaks.
thrawn323 4 years ago
Quite simple: the events that would lead to a certain war had already taken place.
Progressive75 4 years ago
Yup. Pretty damn random comment. They talk about their kid, Kosh talks about the war.
But at least nobody held a speech about their childhood.
SAsgarters 3 years ago
He ment that there is no hope for their kid! Because the war will consume them.
pcuimac 2 years ago
hmm nice way to summarize the vorlon, the collective over the individual
Houses0nfire 4 years ago
Vorlon :-p
Although, even if pebbles voted, it wouldn't count for much in the face of an avalanche!
axa8791 4 years ago
if ALL the pebbles decided to stay quiet and peacefull where they are before the avalanche, it wouldn't take place, would it? ;)
minski76 2 years ago
Comment removed
thrawn323 4 years ago
Ah man, this clip leaves out the best part of all: her face after Kosh says that. It is just priceless, I think.
HedleyTuek 4 years ago
I loved that line. I have it in the signature for many of the forums I belong to.
abraxas365 5 years ago