VLog--Reality, atheism and Islam

[tapesquare]

I tried to follow along but damn its boring. Sorry man, Not one of your best posts.

[bartonim]

@saffibaffi Agreed. He's not saying a whole lot.

[bm897]

i don't like all this philosophy etc and trying to figure out reality and all that.. it just messes with your mind-you get so caught up in!I studied basic philosophy-&I ended up hating it-'cause it is sooo pointless&just a big fat headache.I know,some people may think I am just a simpleton-But most of the world unlike us are thinking of where their next meal is going to come from-Its important2stay in focus of what is really important.Not trying to discourage btw..If u enjoy it- congrats 2u!

[JetpackNinjaDinosaur]

How does someone spend 15 minutes talking about reality on video and say essentially nothing.

Reality is simple, discerning what is real is not.

But since we can only use our senses to discern reality, claiming faith of things that are more likely to be made up than to exist does not constitute rational thinking at all.

No-one but your christian buddies take you seriously TFP for a reason, can you guess what that reason is?

[urbanguru]

brother, all religions are ultimately the same. all religions connect at a deeper level, all religions are true on that level. it takes a highly dedicated (to finding the truth) person to see that. one needs to see beyond forms... this is where reality lies. good video btw.

[numbcore]

sorry but I think thats bullshit. The truth is, the bible is nonsense written by men, and the quran has stolen some things from the bible and is just as nonsensical. Also, there is no god. There is no proof of a god, so there is no reason to belief it

[urbanguru]

thank you for enlightening me, I feel liberated. I don't know what I would do without you youtube intellectuals. peace friend.

[numbcore]

Youre welcome, however if you disagree with me, feel  free to argue about

[TheZapperine]

I will put some other bibel verses on your site inshallah

[TheZapperine]

Genesis 17:3-4

"And Abraham fell on his face; and God talked with him, saying, 4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thous shalt be a father of many nations."

Psalms 95:6

"O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker."...

[TheZapperine]

Why islam is the truth in my opinion trough the bible

Mark 10:18

(English Standard Version)18And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone

Matthew 27:46 & Mark 15:34

"And about the night hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying 'E'-li, E'-li, la' -ma sa-bach'-tha-ni?' that is to say 'My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me?"

[TheZapperine]

Muslim means somebody who is submitted to the truth/the one and only God.

Lot of things you say sounds like your submitted to the one true God and try to make this fit with chritianity. You sound more like a pure monotheist and not like a trinity Christian am I right?

[fbeg84]

Everyone look at a man sincere and learn. This dude is real. I'm a Muslim saying it.

[StanRather]

Bottom line: the Bible, the Koran, the Torah, and all the holy books are not the way we came into being. It doesn't mean there is no creator. It just means that certain men have tricked other men, and its hilarious and enraging to watch the people that have been fooled. We are here, we are alive, all else is a mystery. Have some fun and don't forget to be nice to people. Smile as much as possible and try to be optimistic. Don't be afraid of death. Follow my simple steps and you too can be free!

[StanRather]

snoozefest

[muchlijd]

You appear to be a rational and well-spoken individual. I cannot say I disagree with any argument presented in the video. It is indeed worthwhile to bring up that religions are conventionally held to be not self-contradictory, and that therefore their falsehood cannot be affirmed (logic being the only thing we know to be unarguably true). Good thoughts ... I posted this because I assume you'd like to hear some support from an atheist.

[shalylol]

Why do I watch these debates? Bullshit semantics.

[spikesmth]

It seems there is in fact some confusion on your side about the difference b/w reality and perception. Perception is the method we use as organisms to interact with reality. Reality is independent of our perception. We can perceive things that are not part of reality (drugs woot), and we can be unable to perceive true aspects of the objective reality. Beliefs are about digesting perception. Science is about perceiving reality.

[noproofforjesus]

so jack how would you prove this? simple get proof the mind doesn't need a body or a brain to exist. once you do this we will all believe in an after life. then again you would still have to prove it was the after life in your book not in any other religious text good luck and we all await your findings on this project.

[YahyaSnow]

There is evidence about his existence as a man but no evidence he is God

[noproofforjesus]

he made a huge flaw he said his brain created his mind and that this was some how proof of something transcending reality.why does he think this. in reality his minds eye are just words describing the functions of the brain these are all explained with all natural cause. you are not your mind the true you is your brain the rest of the body is there to receive out side stimuli and keep your brain alive you are the grey matter in side your skull. if the mind out lives the brain please prove this.

[TheAist]

i think u have trouble distinguishing reality and truth, because both are distorted by your perception that supernatural things happen. the same flaw u see in islam applies to christianity as well. Truth IS fidelity to reality, they coincide. if either waiver you are believing in non-truth. this is why rational thinkers dismiss religion, its supernatural, and unfounded on every level. same reasons you dont believe in zeus.

[noproofforjesus]

i agree. he is talking in circles, he acts as if reality is some how all subjective and beliefs are some kind of real things that exist on there own. at least how i understood him. he talks about seeing 2+2 but this is just a visual model in your brain those numbers dont exist as you see them anywhere but in your pulled up memory files in your brain, this would be like me saying i am watching a movie on tv and there are real people in my tv and it is the same as reality we experience.

[TheAist]

yep!

[noproofforjesus]

philosophy is nice but i think he is over thinking this stuff. he talks about truth but i would say truths are things that are most plausible in the natural world not the most implausible. we find out what is or is not plausible by science and logic and reason.

[kvaks3000]

Jack, so you don't believe Islam is the truth, but you do believe Christianity is. How very, very, very lucky for you that you were born into a Christian family, then. What an awesome coincident for you, that you were raised in the true religion and not one of the countless untrue ones.

Think of all those unlucky Muslims!

[YahyaSnow]

I am a Muslim and believe in Jesus too...the difference here is I believe Jesus was a man(prophet) and NOT God

So I believe in Jesus

[kvaks3000]

Then, according to mainstream Christian belief, you are going to hell. While only those lucky enough to be born into Christian families have a chance at heaven.

[docsheji]

@kvaks3000

No YahyaSnow you're not going to hell, because the ignorant fool who calls himself a Christian says so. Today's mainstream Christianity has almost nothing to do with the teachings of the man they call Jesus.

More.....

[leostomicek]

I never understood the Muslim conception of Jesus. It is not that different to the Christian, in both accounts Jesus was conceived by God's word or Holy Spirit but the Muslims still deny Jesus was the Son.

Also as a prophet Jesus holds a very special place in Islam...

[YahyaSnow]

All Prophets are held inhigh esteem byMuslims but Muslims never step over the boundary and elevate a Prophetto the level of God.

We believe in pure monotheism and believe all Prophets (including Jesus) taught the same message of pure monotheism.

I hope that shedsfurther light on the Muslim position

Thanks

[noproofforjesus]

i believe jesus lived i just dont think he was a god nor do i believe he had any contact with any god or gods nor do i believe in Mohammad as one who speaks for god. all these things are just claims and really empty ones at that. the Christians claim Jesus rose from the dead and the Muslims claim Mohammad was the last prophet. sad to say both claims come with no proof. Mohammad was illiterate jesus never wrote anything down. you would think your god could have just made his last prophet able to

[noproofforjesus]

read and write so to show that Mohammad was his last prophet. i mean why would you believe this type of stuff. and i know what your will say he memorized the Koran so this is proof but memorizing something that no one has heard is kind of hard to prove he wasn't just making it up. like i said empty claims...

[NUGNESS123]

why do u make shit when ppl arent buying what ur saying and 2 staring ur vids?

[DickJohnson3434]

Tooltime ends his video saying you usually respond to him with "dead silence".

Do you ever respond to his criticisms?

[CarolineATRC]

I have to say it, iam not digging the beard, you look a tad like Cat Stevens. I prefer the stubble

[ndjm00]

This guy is a proper pain in the arse. Especially when he engages in such self refuting pointless arguements!

[apolloxias]

Jesus friggin' Christ, Jack. Read a freshman metaphysics textbook already.

[healthyaddict]

How do we assess these beliefs?

We'd need a tool. That tool would be skeptical/critical thinking.

Remember that conversation? Perhaps I'll make a video response clarifying in a non-sleepy manner.

Why not use science? I'll watch the rest later. I'm at about 10min and have to go to class. =/

[kizzume]

I must admit to liking the visual style of this video.

[kizzume]

15 minutes about the definition of "reality"? People brought up a lot of decent talking points in response to your last video, and this 15 minute rant about different definitions of reality is all you could come up with?

I'm very disappointed.

[0rangeFlamingo]

I hate people like this, who sit there with a smug grin jabbering a load of crap thinking they are right.

[LetLoveRule91]

Truth, reality...It's too early for me to think about such things. :P Love the black and white style. :)

[Deismcomprehension]

It is difficult to take you seriously Jack!

i know you dont realize but you are the one who never thinks before speaking!

[edensapples]

You can be so patronizing, and yet speak with such truth in the same moment. You're fun, keep the videos coming bro :)

[silverfoxcondor46]

Well spoken and thoughtful video here.

When it comes to subjective beliefs at some point we have to admit to what we can and cannot know we must set limits (otherwise we allow ourselves to be deceived). In these cases we cant say truth is discernible.

My point is that "subjective truth" is relative.

Hence the "live and let live'

[rhyfelur]

Have you ever considered how many fervently reigious people their are in the world that don't believe the same God as you? I'm guessing you believe that their version of God does not exist and yours does? Now by definition people that believe in things that do not exist are to some degree delusional.

Are we in agreement to this point? If so, here is my question...what do you make of the fact that so many religious people are delusional?

[CelticAlphabet]

Jack...I know you get this... "...Nature is further defined as ALL forces and phenominon in the entirety of perceptable reality...anything that Really exists has properties and anything that can be objectively verified, measured, and tested is therefore natural" -AronRa. Theres no evidence for god(s) and no reason to believe it or assume anything about it. Period.

[thisguysajerk]

wow, jack. you're really stretching these days. must be hard to hold onto those little christian threads at this point...

[TogetherForPeace]

I'm interested to know what about stretching supposes that it must be hard to hold onto Christian threads....?

[thisguysajerk]

gotta reeeeeaaallllyyyy rreeeeeaaaaaacccccchhhhh to make a point. gotta really fuck with words and change their meanings to make a point. it's hard to watch you anymore.

[orangesfromlondon]

"Science is in the business of looking at the physical"

Feel free to look into the work of neurologists like Oliver Sacks. In fact do. It's awe inspiring.

I like the vid though.

[TheVofR]

Philosophy deals with deductive reasoning, Science deals with inductive reasoning. Deductive reasoning means the conclusion is true if the premises are true. Inductive reasoning can't promise truth because it's based on observation and statistics. It can only promise probability or degrees of certainty. For instance, I can only be 99.9999% certain of gravity. There is no argument that can deductivly proove God, and the observations/inductive proof seem to point away from the God of the Bible.

[psychoholicmike]

Here's a different view on ATHEISTS!!! for you: They're unintentionally copying religious people.

Most religion is all about group-identification, deny it if you like. Which IS deeply appealing to people, at their worst, lowest level.

I bet most "militant atheists" are former Christians, etc., rebelling against the indoctrination that they experienced as children, and recognize in hindsight.

In other words, the "militant atheist" mentality was created by religion. So it's your fault.

[randyhelzerman]

I'm of the opionion that most people who are wont to say that religious people are out of touch with reality would be quite surprised to found out just exactly how much reality pastors, imams, rabbies, and priests have to deal with in the course of following their calling.

[TheVofR]

My main point is that there is enough reason to be skeptical of material things, of the things we can experience. Trying to reason about things we can't know by definition, like the existence of an invisible God, is silly.

btw, beliefs are not necessarily 'transcendant'. Current studies on the brain would appear to show that beliefs can be explained by physical brain activity. Nothing more than electrical signals that the brain interprets into thoughts and emotions,

[TheVofR]

The problem is, none of those three things are perfect. We would say thoughts(logic) when combined with senses(observation) give us the best representation of reality. But our senses make mistakes and are limited. For instance, we would never be able to see a galaxy moving away from us faster than the speed of light(I'm told it's possible). So what's to say there is such a galaxy? We would have no way of knowing. Continued...

[TheVofR]

Reality...I'd say it's just the way things are. All things that are true about all things. Now, the existence of God could be part of reality, but so could the existence of Unicorns. There is not enough proof to justify either belief. we can't access reality directly, we access it through experience. Our experience is defined by our senses, our emotions and our thoughts. So when we claim to know something, we must know it because of one of those three things. Continued...

[iToyRobot]

great video, very intellectual

[behumble4God]

reality :-) very interesting topic. Try to look at this with open mind. If you didn't see it yet it talks alot about reality. If you search: What is the real reality? /watch?v=ukbFvxusMMI - Well i still don't know what to make of it. I like intro :-) about reading the book. Just to encourage you if i can. I like the way how you describe what you believe, know, understand. God bless you.

[rhyfelur]

I don't disagree with everything you have said about reality but I would like to point out that your You tube "career" has been mostly about trying to convince people that if they don't accept your reality, they are lost souls doomed to a miserable existance both in life and in the after life.

Why is that? Because you believe your reality to be true and theirs to be false.

Just sayin

[smpunditz]

When Jack is beat he traditionally likes to turn the focus to "if my vision of the world isn't true then everything is relative and by extension utterly meaningless."

He has in no way shape or form even attempted to unpack this claim and simply resorts to fixating on common words and talks about the many ways that they can be interpreted such as truth and reality to prove his point. I saw this video coming last week.

[TogetherForPeace]

smp :) it's always intriguing to see such thoughtfulness regarding each video I post up and my motivations behind them. Dr. Phil and Ms. Cleo would certainly be upset by all the competition here on YouTube.

[smpunditz]

Jack I am not giving my opinion regarding the motivations of your video. This isn't a psyche analysis, simply an observation that has been made.

It is obvious that you never defended your claim that if God does not exist that truth is meaningless and it is obvious that you often focus on definitions and linguistics rather then discuss the real point.

Your hypersensitivity towards believing I am claiming to know your motivations behind this behavior are unwarranted.

[TogetherForPeace]

smp-- I suppose had I said that truth, as used in everyday conversation, is meaningless without God then there would be something to defend.

[smpunditz]

I rest my case.

[TheNakedAtheist]

"Dr. Phil and Ms. Cleo would certainly be upset by all the competition here on YouTube."

After years on Youtube, and hundreds of video's. Not to mention blog tv sessions. Many know you far better than a therapist would after months of one hour a week sessions. Unless all your video's have been lies, and don't express your true feelings/opinions. Me thinks you doth protest the nail being hit on the head to much.

[holdontoyourwig]

You basically rubbished your own religion there Jack.

You speak of Muslims having a framework but then says its not true. You have EXACTLY the same basic framework in Christianity.

You live your life according to your beliefs.

They are only true because you want them to be. Just as Muslims do.

No difference at all.

[TogetherForPeace]

actually no i didn't. So when God is real it's because we want God to be real but when God is not real it has nothing to do with you wanting God to not be real...that makes no sense.

[holdontoyourwig]

Every word you spoke could just as easily been from the mouths of any religious cult.

Watch you video back and put yourself in the shoes of any religious follower.You could have been a Muslim sat there talking about how Christians have a framework to live by, and how that framework was a lie.

Muslims want god to be the one they worship. You want your god to be true. The key word there is WANT..........not IS !!!!

You proved the atheist point.

[anderseb2007]

The irony is how against science and reality you are while you benefit from computers and the internet created by science and reality.

[TogetherForPeace]

and-- nothing in my vid said I was against science and reality..so indeed that is ironic.

[Kailoa36]

15 minutes of pointless drivel.

[TogetherForPeace]

kailoa--the horror :)

[gothatfunk]

reality, as with existence itself, is a paradox.

[premed2]

In quantum theory there are many potential "realities", metaphysical interpretations of the empirical data, all of which explain the data without contradiction, but cannot currently, or perhaps ever, be differentiated as to "truth". The oldest interpretation, the Copenhagen convention, essentially ignores all reference to an underlying worldview, and deals strictly with the laws derived out of empirical findings. (more)

[premed2]

...and then there's Brando's reality...if he has a runny nose, sore throat, and feels sick, he's sick. Quack!

[TogetherForPeace]

premed-- saying 'Brando's reality' as though we all wouldn't say such things is missing the point. Once again I'm not talking about the usage of the word reality as it relates to what we all agree upon...otherwise there wouldn't be a problem would there?

[premed2]

Actually I was having some fun with the contrast between your style and Brando's. I was not being serious.

I found that I had no quarrels with anything you have said in your last three vids. In fact I was impressed at the sophistication of your thought processes. I do have an issue with the manner in which you have framed certain topics, and I hope, now that I have some free time, to respond in a serious way with a vid response.

[TogetherForPeace]

premed--I appreciate you taking the time to clarify. :) I'll be looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

[FraggedMind]

When you talk about the supernatural, then you are not talking about reality. Leave your God(s) at home when talking about reality.

[hellavadeal]

Keep it real. LOL

reallity is in the mind of the beholder.

Someone that is insain and thinks spiders are crauling on them , in their mind it is real. A normal person will know it isn't . But that will not change the reallity that they know. Common reality is what we all can see . Personal reality is real to the one that hold to it in their minds.

The proof is in the puddin. LOL

[cjunk351]

Actually science also examines gravity, time, sociology, language, physics. These are not material.

All religions cannot be true. Its not like one must be true. Its also possible they are all false.

All religions function 'well' within their own framework, as long as they do not remain consistent. Religious people draw the line at their religion.

[gothatfunk]

Jack, am i having audio-hallucinations, or did you just make an argument saying reality/truth is subjective?

[TogetherForPeace]

What specifically did I say in which I indicated that I was making such an argument? Or where do I make the claim that reality/truth is subjective?

[gothatfunk]

i'll do you a video reply tomorrow, and show ya. its entirely likely i have the wrong end of the stick. but i'll show you what i mean. its toward the end of your video. i'd re-watch it now and write you back, but am otherwise engaged for the moment :-)

[TogetherForPeace]

got- if you do the video if you can please explain what you mean by 'subjective' that'd be appreciated.

[gothatfunk]

of course. that'll be what the whole video is about. i'll try to keep my points short, as it won't be scripted.

[teenspirit1]

Can we circumvent the fact that we only have one standard of truth which is science?

[CapnnOrdinary]

only if you can admit that Science might not be able to

'cover" or "detect" everything we experience.

question, please tell me how "Science" can test something that is Spiritual?

[teenspirit1]

I don't know, but if you can define spiritual, science can certainly cover it :)

[CapnnOrdinary]

sure.

something that is "spiritual", like God, is not living in physical form, and is not living in the boundary of our sense of "time".

so, how can Science detect or "test" that?

[teenspirit1]

"Y is not X" is not a definition of Y.

If you define Y, I will try to help you find out what areas of science and which bodies of knowledge science offers can be used to cover Y.

[CapnnOrdinary]

i can't help it if you don't accept my definition... but maybe i will ask this instead.... do you believe it is a provable fact that Science can't detect everything that exists?

[teenspirit1]

If you asked me what my job was and I told you that I'm not a basketball player and I'm not an antique dealer, would that define my job?

Come on! Of course you can help it f I don't accept your definition. You can check for yourself if it is valid or not. I'm not trying to beat you into submission.

What I know from that definition, you could be defining islamic djinns

[CapnnOrdinary]

no, you perspective is all based on conjecture and semantics... been down that road before with Atheists... it's kinda a rabbit trail and a waste of time.(on -my- end :^)

but, i would be interested in your answer to this question: do you believe that "things" can't exist unless Science can detect them?

[teenspirit1]

I'm trying to be courteous and precise. That's what we try to do among friends. You are voluntarily changing subject and asking a loaded question instead.

If you won't acknowledge that your description of this god also applies to djinns and faeries and is therefore a non-definition, then any further discourse about science with you will be a "rabbit trail and a waste of time" anyway.

[CapnnOrdinary]

no, it doesn't apply to faeries or cyclopses... why? because none of them claim Authorship to this Universe... why do so many people accept the existence of God? First-Cause... there is design to this world and Universe... if you don't want to accept that, then fine.

anyway, do you believe "things" or "stuff" can't exist with put Science recognizing them?

[teenspirit1]

You believe in an intervening miracle swinging personal god. Not just a first-cause-then-disappear kinda annoying god :)

People usually accept the local religion god whatever it may be. And they do that before they can contemplate about the universe.

About things existing... Things which can be defined may exist. We test their existence with science. If you define god as a first cause, from what science has achieved until now, we can certainly say it doesn't exist.

[teenspirit1]

to be more precise, it does exist. God is a false vacuum created by quantum fluctuations overlapping before there was time. So worshipping a first cause is like worshipping a quantum fluctuation.

[CapnnOrdinary]

but what we have discovered about the Universe points to the idea that there MUST be an infinite all powerful Being that resides outside our sense of time, space and matter.

what info does Science have that says that God doesn't exist?

[teenspirit1]

quantum fluctuations are pretty much timeless. They just overlap. Some of them cause false vacuum. They are the god you're seeking.

[gothatfunk]

@CapnnOrdinary, i salute your attempt at "defining" spiritual. however, it seems to me you have not done so.

to "define" a thing is to decribe its characteristics. something not bound by time or physical limitations cannot be defined.

if something isn't limited by time, or physical presence, in what sense can it be said to exist?

basically, you are making a case saying "science can't test something that doesn't exist".

quite so.

[CapnnOrdinary]

no, i'm saying Science doesn't have the capability of defining EVERYTHING.

tell me, can Science observe "infinity"? we can define infinity but we don't have any evidence that infinity is a property of this Universe.

[teenspirit1]

Oh you did not respond to me.

You are right, in mathematics infinity is defined. It is defined by a set of "is" relationships.

Infinity is a useful concept in science as well. It is the basis for limits and therefore differential equations. It is all defined and all useful.

Don't you want to define your spiritual concept so science can cover it? (hint: definitions are positive) :)

[gothatfunk]

science describes or explains events and/or phenomena. we have dictionaries which define concepts.

love is a concept too.

science may, for example, be able to explain how the chemicals in your brain create the experience of love. science cannot however, explain what it means to you to be in love.

[CapnnOrdinary]

just like i bet, Science could recognize when i feel that i have experienced an interaction with the Holy Spirit... it's the same thing! great point man, thanks for sharing and being candid.

(unless you don't think "love" is real)

[gothatfunk]

@CapnnO, as a matter of fact, there is extensive research into chemical reactions in the brain during transcendental experiences, meditation, etc. often its like being on drugs, ie same areas of the brain activating.

its fascinating stuff, you should check into it.

as for love being "real" or not, its only as real as we make it. its subjective, which is NOT to diminish its value. saying it is subjective simply keeps it in perspective as it relates to the rest of "reality".

[CapnnOrdinary]

i love the mystery of how my experiences can be seen thru how my body reacts to what i believe is from the Holy Spirit.. i love the fact that i can't prove it and neither can you, that's what keeps me searching more for God.

-that said- i don't believe my experiences are subjective, i believe i will be either stone-cold wrong, or graciously right. (and that goes for everyone else too)

[gothatfunk]

you are certainly entitled to look at it that way.

of course, my opinion that you are entitled to look at it that way is totally subjective.

[CapnnOrdinary]

but that's truth bro... i'm either right or wrong... you are either right or wrong.

[kmonster420]

Ok,,, but how do you make the leap from this mumbo jumbo to Christianity? I'm not seeing the connection here

[scootermo]

It is, ...what it is. What else could it be..ha. These comments are funny. Is this as deep as we can go...man. I'm ashamed of people nowadays. It's not what we believe to be true that matters, It's reality that will ultimately affect us in the end.

What are the most important questions we will ask in this life? Shouldnt it be, where will I go when I die? How do I know for sure? These questions CAN be answered. But not if we never ask them. This would be foolish..

[1MinDLesS1]

reality is subjective.

[benperkins1]

to be 'real', something has to exist or be true.

quiet simple.

The only problems occur with understanding reality is when peoples minds are polluted which such things as religion.

[Katalyzt]

Exactly... Well said benperkins1...

Katalyzt

[siekertr21]

Lol you're still stuck on that?

[siekertr21]

Its extremely rare to find a youtube atheist that actually is interested in learning or maybe even teaching. It seems that usually they're interested in sounding comical or simply trying to be malicious towards opposing points of view.

There are some people that would be happy to see the abolition of all opposing points of view. The trick is filtering these people out and I'm happy to see you not indulging them.

[Gnomefro]

I suppose we could agree, at the very least, that if "reality" involves non-demonstrable, subjective truths, then it is impossible to communicate about such things between agents.

Because of this barrier to communication, I think it's reasonable to restrict the word "reality" to demonstrable effects that it's possible for agents to agree on.

Our pool of shared observation is the only usable basis for rational discussion and inability to demonstrate things is therefore a huge problem.

[TogetherForPeace]

gnome- I appreciate the thoughtful comment. In conversations that are becoming obscure due to the use of a word like 'reality' then it's probably a good idea to move onto something more precise or clear. Couldn't it be said that rationality itself isn't demonstrable?

[Censeo]

"rationality itself isn't demonstrable?"

rationality is demonstrable by the pragmatic value the usage of it has. It is not far fetched to "believe" it can be a tool for knowledge.

[TogetherForPeace]

Censeo-- how is pragmatic value demonstrable given that what is pragmatic to one person may not be to another? Pragmatic is not a thing its a value placed by people...it's not an object.

[antybu86]

These semantic games are very telling.

It seems to me that you'd really like to redefine the words "reality" and "truth" out of any meaning. Why do this? Does it have something to do with the immense failure of your recent ontological argument?

I wish you'd just be intellectually honest and admit that you've exhausted your arguments. Why else would you choose to hold a magnifying glass to the ambiguities in language?

Your discussion seems trivial and futile.

[TogetherForPeace]

anty- I have no fear that words like reality and truth will run out of meaning simply because I realize we use such words in various ways for a variety of reasons.

There is no failure in presenting an argument in order to hear the opposition. I didn't present it to win some prize.

[antybu86]

You presented an argument, having no commitment to it, simply to see what the non-believers would say? I don't buy this spin, and I also find your unwillingness to admit a failed argument very telling.

I hope that one day you peruse an OED so that you'll realize that every word in the English language has been used in various ways for a variety of reasons, but contrary to your prediction, these words still hold meaning.

Until that day, have fun using semantic games to shelter your beliefs.

[TogetherForPeace]

anty- If you watch the ontological argument video I believe the annotations I placed there are still up. I was fully aware that I didn't have everything thought through when I placed up the video.

I have never said words don't have meaning so I'm not sure what your issue is.

I find pointing to specific things a person says and asking questions or attempting to refute specific points is more beneficial than trying to play Ms. Cleo and determine motivation.

[antybu86]

Jack, you said that words (such as "truth" and "reality") will run out of meaning because they are used in a variety of different ways. What you don't realize (and what I said, in the previous comment, that I hope you realize some day) is that ALL words have been used in a variety of ways, yet words still have meaning.

Once again, Jack, (for triple clarity) I don't expect you to understand this, but I hope you'll crack open an OED and come to this realization.

[TogetherForPeace]

anty- where in my video did I say words will 'run out of meaning' or something to that extent? Yes, yes, you don't expect me to understand that's good because from my perspective it is you who doesn't understand. so I'm glad you see that I won't understand someone who can't reflect what I said vs. what they think I said but can't support it.

[antybu86]

You said it two comments ago, Jack:

"I have no fear that words like reality and truth will run out of meaning simply because I realize we use such words in various ways for a variety of reasons."

Sheesh.

[shaneomac210]

My reality is the ultimate reality