You make some great points but you're not thinking about the whole picture. People that are abused as children have a certain mindset growing up and it is very hard to change that. They grow into adults and have kids with that wrong mindset, and that mindset allows them to keep out all the info that may make them better parents. They abuse their children and the cycle continues. They did do the best they could, their mind was closed off, and they couldn't do anything about that.
He knows very well what the effects of child abuse are. Search for his "bomb in the brain" series to see.
The people you are describing absolutely did not do the best they could. They could have gotten help before they had children and we know they could have because people who have suffered the same abuse do so all the time. At least there is no abuse that i am aware of that makes people unable to pick up a phone and call a therapist, but able to raise a child.
@FlailingJunk Those people might be away that they could pick up the phone and call a therapist but that kind of thing isn't in the nature to simply do. The only reason we don't hold the same standards to children and their tests is b/c we are always behind them nagging them to study so they really have no excuse. These abusive parents really have no one telling them in a way they can absorb it in that they need to deal with their issues.
First, nagging is a horrible way to treat a child, and does not mitigate the moral hypocrisy of the parents in any way. Actually the opposite, just try nagging them and see.
Second, "its not in their nature" is simply wrong. People who are abused seek help all the time, there is an entire profession dedicated to helping them and its existence is no secret. If someone has a child without dealing with their issues first that is a CHOICE they have made and are responsible for.
@blueshift314 NO! Maybe for some, but I can assure you there are a whole bunch of us who swore as children that we wouldn't have children until we had worked out what was going on, and did our best to change before bringing them into the world. That may have been the excuse my parents used when they abused me....but I WILL NOT copy them. Of course no-one's perfect....but it upsets me when I hear people talking about the cycle of abuse without considering the possibility of waking up to it all.
Very nice, very solid... I love your analysis of ethics and morality... it's a similar conclusion to what I've arrived at in the past and had trouble with putting it to words... of course, I wasn't really going from the angle of parenting, but, it perfectly encapsulates the issue.
Thanks for taking the time to film this. Subscribed.
My son, theoreticalbullshit, turned me onto this video, and I am proud of him for it. I love this video. This was excellent and sanity producing. It is an unpopular stand, probably the most dangerous and insurgent of all stands. I laud this man. After I have commented, I will seek out his name. I would give him a standing ovation, if he could see me now. --Dr. Faye
great video stef. I think this is actually a discussion that will be very widely developed in the near future. a vital part of our development which has, as you pointed out, been very widely overlooked both as a place for explanation into the nature of people.. as well as a place for solutions to many of the problems we see around us, not the last of which is the big disconnect from what WE ARE and what want people to be.
what about those how have problem with their parents? what do you suggest to them? go to work? Separate from parents? Kill them? Or be with them and use this stuff to abuse them for their mistakes? you do not have answer to these questions you only make the situation much more worse than it is. you put the parents and children against each other as enemies . you do not solve anything in this context.
What about parents that simply do not know any better? You mentioned a student studying for the Bar, that studied hard, came prepared and failed. That was ok. But what about people that, by example or enviroment, simply just do not know any better way to raise their child, other than by some negative route according to your standerds. I would agree with you entirely, except that you mentioned the "cycle" How would you propose to break this bad parenting cycle, in those cases?
Ignorance is no excuse. If someone seeks information about parenting and just happens to chose bad sources that is forgivable, but there is no excuse for not even attempting to learn what good parenting looks like.
As the parent of (one of each) and with the knowledge that I am doing a good job as a parent.
They have everything they need in life and more in terms of both physical and mental health (things and love) but I confess that I can do more for them.
One can always do more for them, so my best, I have in a way not done.
I tend to think that childhood is where we are supposed to learn the rules while I think learning when and where to break or bend those rules is what it means to be an adult. Where and when to bend, how much to bend, and where or when to utterly break or disregard those rules I think, is something that may take a lifetime to master.
@ProfessorP Tears come to my eyes reading your comment. Not in a positive way. It is truly saddening, maddening even, that you would try to rationalize this kind of hypocrisy. Unfortunately, I don't even think you'd be able to see that hypocrisy and what's wrong with it, as if you've been broken; like 98% of all other children raised in cultures are so near becoming.
It's startling that the relevant comments are about parenting when the video was not about parenting. Parenting is merely an example, practically a metaphor, for the hypocrisy of inculpable authority.
We perceive our roles (assigned or autonomous) and seek to fulfill them. Questioning the expectations we have accepted for ourselves does not come naturally until we can find or create new expectations (roles) for ourselves.
As a parent myself I can honestly say that I am not doing the best that I can, but for some strange reason I still feel compelled to add "but i am still doing the best I can".
Your analogy between the test of parenthood and the test of the bar exam breaks down in more than one way. For one: people see many different well-accepted avenues to approach parenting. They also see relatively fewer viable approaches to completing bar exams. What you need to argue that certain parenting strategies, like ones that don't involve reading parenting books, are wrong because of a, b, or c. Not that people who chose this accepted avenue are akin to people blowing off a test.
PS: For whatever this means, I unfortunately find myself thinking it's better if I refrain from introducing your material to friends (let alone my parents?) just because of this one "idea". I think this feeling of mine may be shared by most who are "not too unsatisfied" by the work of their parents (and either forgive / or just simply think "I'll try to do better myself")... Anyway. We have to do better tomorrow, type of phrasing, yes. Everything so far was crap, not too sure about portability.
Judging parents on how much bad they gave you - is as dishonest as judging the government on how much good it gave you. If parents gave you life along with food, a shelter, and clothes up until the age 14 - and you're not happy with the room service or with the church they picked for you, then you just turn around politely, say thanks for everything, and "you just walk away" (quote). Any violent finger pointing is everything but elegant and cannot lead to peace and long term problem solving.
@marcabela You miss the point entirely. The examples you gave are minor; how well you thought your mother cleaned up after you, or your parents choice of religious associations. But what about a parent that doesn't really take good care of their child? What about a parent that never supports their child in their endeavors? What about a parent that abuses their child? We are not talking about minor faults, here, sir. Go make bare assertions elsewhere.
Well, well - sounds like you've got all it takes in elegance and patience of mind to make a good parent yourself.
Interesting to see how all who point fingers in all directions throughout life always wake up way too late to the basic fallacy that they were all, all along, just simply pointing fingers... at the mirror.
Parents are humans, they screw up, have short-comings, cheat, they lie to themselves - you can only run away. Or do better.
@marcabela It is not dishonest to say that your mother shouldn't have been drinking when they had you. It is not dishonest to say that your tobacco burns were the responsibility of a terrible person. There are things that are genuinely bad and that parents should be held accountable for. I don't believe that finger pointing cannot lead to peace, but even if that were true it doesn't change the fact that certain parents did things they shouldn't have done.
It is very interesting that I stumbled upon this video, having just gone through a rapid re-evaluation of my own parent's virtues, and questioning the virtues of my stepmother to her face.
Thankyou Stef, I've been a long time fan and you have helped me to grow exponentially.
Go Stef. I am honest with myself, and others. When I epic fail at something, I am the first to admit it. Most people won't, especially when they fock up their children, or allow them to be focked up by "society and the government".
Not on topic here, but wondering when the videos will come regarding real-world transition from statist society to non-statist society. We can't just *blink* ourselves into a new paradigm.
Well, there are alot of good things out there on parenting now...Aletha Soulter, Faber and Mazlish, etc. But...we should not forget that one of the main things that made the world a worse place, was parents believing experts, and adopting drugged birth, formula, separate sleeping, "leaving children to cry it out", etc.
@givebirthathome I'd guess that Stefan was either trying to address a wider audience by not getting into that tangent or that he's not an parent himself and therefore hasn't done those bits of research.
But, I think he'd agree that, when it came time to "study" to be a parent, simply "trusting" the experts and considering that "good enough" and "the best that you could do" wouldn't really make the mark.
@spiralpasta Thanks. Stefan is the parent of a young child. He makes a good point that to not even trying to be conscious is certainly not "the best that you could do", and
alot of people are making this mistake. With a child growing, the fact is, you will make many mistakes before you can figure things out . Sadly, with several families, the difference btwn 1st & 2nd in favor of the second, seemed to really bear this out. Also read Paolo Freire on poverty and learning.
@givebirthathome With the bulk of our congress saying they couldn't penetrate the lying "weapons of mass destruction" propaganda coming from the executive, do we really expect parents to completely wend their way through childrearing "experts" who are just as crazy as the rest of society?
So, I'm just advocating balance. ..yes, some parents haven't tried to do much, yes, other parents, who may not have done a very good job, DID do the best they could. Let's not fool ourselves...
@givebirthathome when you've had bad parenting, its the most painful thing you can experience. But the truth is, when you've really faced it, which takes alot of courage many people don't want to admit they don't have....you heal, and when you heal, you do see "they did the best they could"....meanwhile, for some folks, their parents may still be such toxic people they can't have anything/much to do with them. But people shouldn't cheat themselves of their own healing, by quick&dirty blame.
It is not the most painful thing in the world of experiences. There are more worse situations that come to mind from my own life and if I can name this many,... I cant really believe that.
@imjustsolittle You're lucky justsolittle...if you were on the floor, your mother was kicking you and saying, "I'm going to kill you"...I think it would rank up there amongst most painful things you can experience.
I'm referring to the comment that begins: "With the bulk of our congress..."
Rather than calling for accountability you switch back to parents and seem to be saying that all experts are equally incredible. Also, while I would suggest that no one does their best (I'm ignoring determinism), you are claiming (without explaining why) that even without any evidence of effort on their part, there are parents (and leaders?) of whom we should assume they have done their best.
@akaei0 I see. It does seem as if I am saying that the Congress "did their best"... a few of them are obviously stupid enough to make it likely that they did do their best, but in general, that is not only not what I believe, I have explained to many people that ...there performance was not acceptable, and that people should not judge their representatives as adequate, because they perhaps made the same mistakes themselves, because the representatives have put themselves into a position of
@akaei0 professional responsibility. I am not advocating that people should assume leaders have done their best, merely pointing out that whole situation as a example of one where some people are lying, and others have been duped. With parents, I wouldn't advocate that people should assume they have done their best, either, but I think Stefan is making the opposite point too strongly...which doesn't necessarily help the situation improve. People are irrational..they've been raped, abused by
@akaei0 their own parents, etc. etc. and it takes a huge amount of living before those experiences are overcome. ...and part of the insanity induced, is not seeing, struggling *even harder* (because of devastating low feelings of self-worth) than more normal people, *not to see* where these injuries have made you incapable of relating healthily with other people. And our society not only gives bad parenting advice, per se, it ...by the very requirements of survival in this society, encourages
@akaei0 relentless outward focus and competition, rather than the emotional awareness and connection, which could possibly lead to people having a clue about themselves before they have children.
Under these circumstances, YES, I have seen *many* parents heroically "doing their best", keeping their heads above water, and being good enough to give their kids a chance at life, while making plenty of mistakes. In *some* cases...compassionate understanding would yield much better results for
@akaei0 all concerned. Obviously I am not talking about unrealistic denial, when a parent continues destructive behavior like drinking, or even psychologically destructive behavior.
It is very hard for a child to understand its parents effort or lack of effort. One mother I knew...created a lot of havoc in her young son's life by restricting him for his own protection...at least that's what she thought she was doing. He was pretty angry at her as a teen, but
@akaei0 I was with them, day in day out over the years, and I *know* all the things she did for him. I also know I told her NOT to do the things she did *to* him, but she couldn't stop, because she thought she was doing the right things. Because she herself was molested as a child, and it came out as dysfunctional anxiety for his welfare. She went to therapy too, but .,.it takes time, and during that time, she irremediably marked his childhood....while diligently taking care of his health,
@akaei0 doing everything within her limited resources to respect his privacy, being involved in his school, making sure he had friends to play with, etc.
My own mother did a pretty execrable job...but I eventually saw that she was continually ill during most of my childhood, and nobody else in the family cared to explain this to me. That didn't change the huge damage it had caused, but forgiveness kept my resentment from depriving me of what I could have as an adult with my mother.
@akaei0 Because she did have good will. It is too bad people are so careless that they might say to someone whose parents basically did not have good will, that "they did their best"... but many parents did do their best.
Ha...one mother let her partner convince her there was something wrong with her, when she objected to him engaging in sexual conduct with their daughter. Fortunately another neighbor helped her kick him out. Big mistake...but she loved her daughter.
Having good will or good intentions does not equate to doing one's best. Trying a little, putting forth a reasonable effort or even trying hard is not the same as doing one's best. But all of this is missing the point. The point is that ethics in general places culpability almost completely on the subordinate and little if any on the superior.
"They did their best" may approximate the truth or it may be a cop out. Regardless, the claim is not challenged when made authority.
Web Bots have predicted a "tipping point" for Nov. 8-11, 2010. The last tipping point was Sept. 11,2001 and Web Bots predicted it, accurately, 95 days before it happened. The upcoming one will differ, inasmuch as it will be "much bigger", in terms of impact worldwide. It will be greater than all of the false flags, false wars, assassinations, economic terrorism, financial terrorism, fraudulent elections etc., of the past 60 years combined. Obama has arranged to be in the Orient Nov 4-14. Think.
@rollsthepaul by "Web Bots" I think you mean the "Web Bot Project" run by Ure and High. If so, please know that this is a commercial venture with monetary motives and a very dodgy track record.
This is a great point, mainly to be applied for this and future generations of parents. Personally I see that there was not so much freedom of information such as the internet for past generations of parents. Secondly, embarking on the hellish attempt to get elder past-parents, stuck in their ways to admit they failed at making the best of their potential parenting skills, to me, is pointless because the damage is done. However the current and future parents have NO EXCUSES from here on in.
I agree 100%! I love my parents, but I'm fully aware that they failed me as such and I would never follow their example. And I'll not make any excuses for them either. It took me years to unload all the emotional damage I suffered. I feel free today, including free to recognize their mistakes so I won't repeat them in my own life. In that light I can say they taught me valuable lessons. :)
you pass the 18th centuary drama reading award , great delievery and good points also , for me the easiest way to pass the parenting exam is , not have kids ;)
If I'm forced to come to a conclusion, I'm an anti-natalist. This world sucks and suffering is inevitable. Every parent forces a child into this world and no person ever had a choice about being born. At best, life is short with some brief moments of pleasure and you die young. At worst, life can be a living hell where one can experience tremendous suffering and it usually gets worse the older you get. Anyone who brings a child into this world has by that act lost all moral superiority.
There is no need to defend her. It is what it is? Your assumption is incorrect. When you lose the bread maker of the family, and having 4 children. And your mother was a stay at home mother. Its not being unprepared. But its life. There are circumstances in life that is constantly changing and evolving. Unable to provide enough income, in order to attend to the childs development is all about the enslavement of the capitalist system.
i'm under the impression that parents don't strive for absolute excellence; they just have assumed an arbitrary level of adequacy to reach. anytime i've ever mentioned the fact that i take special note on the times when my parents are cruel, the rebuttal is always "well did you have food and clothes and a roof over your head? they're good parents then." good parenting is not simply providing; too many parents don't realize how they are molding a young soul into a person.
One should be careful when juding their parents. Blame can often be the things that holds us back in life. True not all parents would of done the best in their postions but even the ones that do can't always help their kids. They can blame themselves and/or be blame for how things turn out. The past should be there to learn, to hold on to hatered and regret to lived in the past.
Your argument is flawed. In the since that My mother was a single parent who had to work 1 full-time job, and a part time job. In order to provide the enssentials. Yea there were some things that happened, But there are prorities in judgements.
Maybe in the life you live you have the opportunity and the free-time to access this knowledge. The problem isnt that their isnt good parenting, but their isnt enough time of the day.
@c22dividedby7 you only say the argument is flawed b/c you feel like you have to defend ur mom. empirically , it seems it can all be summed up by saying she was under a lot of pressure most of the time. i understand it sounds callous, but a lot of single mom's, my mother included, think they can parent and work all the time. if abuse evolves out of the stress, then that's an indication to me that they were unprepared, especially considering divorce.
@c22dividedby7 I am in the same boat as you. I wasn't breast fed simply because my mother didn't have the time of day. I'm assuming you were a only child because of divorce, which is the same as me, in which case your mother failed to use good judgement in picking a mate. And if you mother is like mine continued to make bad judgements with two more violent husbands. For a long time I thought my mother was just unlucky, but that's not fair to me. I don't think it's fair to you either.
I raised two stepsons trying to use my life experience, my upbringing and my religious training. I searched the Bible for answers and got advice from elder family members and I still screwed the pooch with the boys. The one that's doing ok doesn't talk to us much. The one that talks to us...isn't doing well.
Then we had two girls. When I noticed that the older girl wasn't happy, I started looking harder. Actually, I wouldn't have without Stef's encouragement.
Failure has no uniform standard. You seem to understand this. "Doing your best" also has no standard. It is conceivably possible that there are people for whom "the best I could " involves taking the test but not studying for it. It is only because that claim is so absurdly unlikely that we think it is false. I reject the term "expert" as far as parenting goes. There is, again, no standard for good parenting. I think your Bar metaphor fails here. The point of the Bar is to create a standard
the Bible says to honor your father and mother,i realized as an adult caring for my dishonorable father that God didn't mean for me to honor a dishonorable father or mother.i fucked up as a parent also,i failed the test.
@areyoulookinatmepal1 -- There is a problem that many have understanding that. 'Honor' is *NOT* submitting/acquiescing to their whims. "Honor" is defined as: –noun 1. honesty, fairness, or integrity in beliefs and actions. 2. a source of credit or distinction. 3. high respect, as for worth, merit, or rank. [...] –verb (used with object) 13. to hold in honor or high respect. 14. to treat with honor. 15. to confer honor or distinction upon. [...] It is obvious #14 & #2 is what is meant.
I'd have to agree with most of this except I have a different point of view. The excuse 'they did the best they could' of course is untrue, but 'they did what their conditioned unfreed mind was capable of', would be a better way to put it imo.
I have unconditionally forgiven my parents for their abusive / destructive parenting as a gift to both them and myself. It has helped me to move onto a more productive and satisfying life.
Ironically, it has come to pass in Alberta that children are now graded upon what they "could have done" as opposed to what they have actually done.
Is this an example of applying the same ethhical standards to children that we apply to adults? Does this create a "race to the bottom" or is there now an advantage to having a "level playing field" for both children and adults in terms of our ethical expectations of both demographics?
@Darkhorse21x Down here in the US most children are passed regardless of their performance. We call it "social promotion," and justify it by claiming that it would be more damaging to leave a child behind his or her classmates than to alleviate their responsibilities. If we cannot leave this mindset behind, we will lose any competitiveness in the world economy/environment.
It's really uncomfortable and unthinkable for some people to question their parents methods. In many cases they want to prop them up on a pedestal, even if the parents were extremely abusive. Like a type of Stockholm syndrome.
It's a common occurrence that the abused are likely to reenact that abuse when they mature, but through confronting the violence of their own parents at the root of their upbringing, and not burying it under the rug, they can see it in themselves and not repeat history.
@Iseeyoursoul I agree that they'll reenact what they've experienced and should question their parents' methods. But unlike some people who don't believe it's okay to spank kids or stuff like that, I think kids should be disciplined. Every time I see a self absorbed person with little respect for others I thank the fact that my parents were rough enough with me to castigate me, but also loved me and made sure that my discipline wasn't at all abusive. There's a big difference there.
Stef, the real WMD's are not the atomic bombs and lazer weapons, and drone soldiers etc.... it's the violence that is directed at children early on, that shape them into these monsters that would DROP the bombs, and kill others.
You never care what someone says you only care what they do and should only look at evidence they present...
I find it hard to believe you never take someones word and expect to back it up with hard evidence... I take it relationships are quite an ordeal for you?
@batfly Stef tells his whole life story on videos and in podcasts. Check them out. The basic rule is, listen to what they say and watch what they do. And judge for yourself whether they're worth keeping in your life.
I love your refreshing analogies!! My parents, particularly mother is a horribly manipulative personality. She will use every device to undermine my sanity and view point with utter emotional disreguard for how she might affect me or the truth.
The confusing part of this whole ordeal is she will use the guise of self-sacrifice and the idea she is being positive/accomplishing something good to rationalize her behavior. In the end, the whole family functions of fantasy with no passion.
Great points Stefan ,On a slight parable I sometimes refer to the masters as children sulking in a corner throwing the tyranny around every time mankind pushes back , but no way in hell would they get the Oh well you did the best you can when I know categorically they didn't do the best ,actually in fact they may have gone out of there way to do the opposite like a spoiled brat . he he
Detention would be more appropriate rather than a good thrashing in my humble opinion.
Love your explorations. I have to disagree with your examples of parents doing their best, but only because you seem not to take into account what the parents *believe* about parenting. My parents sometimes beat me savagely, and I hate them for it, but if I face the harsh truth, I have to admit that they believed themselves to be doing the right thing when doing so.
Also, what kind of defense is that? Imagine if I found some man littering on the side of the road, and beat him savagely, thinking it was for his good.
What do you think the judge is going to say when I tell him "I thought I was doing what was best for him."
Because I believed it myself when I habitually hit a child who was in my care. It took me a long time to realize that I was harming her, not helping her. I'm not defending them; as I said, I hate them for it. I was only addressing a flaw stefbot's argument. If I truly believe that I am doing good, and even believe that educating oneself is counterproductive, then although I may be stupid and dangerous, I can't be considered entirely reprobate.
Hindsight is 20/20. Everything I've done in my life I could have done better. I am not making excuses for my parents, but they did think they were doing the best they could. I still give them and A for effort.
Hail Indian Parenting. A lesson for whole world to follow. Note: Its not abt being economically backwards there are exa,ples of bad parenting in all economic caders...in other countries.
I say its easy to constantly blame your parents, I choose to look forward and become a better person from the lessons I have learnt thus far. Not everything is parents, for instance I was bullied a lot at school. The way I deal with that is with compassion for the bully as they must have been bullied at home. I couldn't do that as a child but can do it now. I am supper happy in my life and choose to live in the now and look forward to the future. :)
Actually, it's really hard to blame your parents. I suspect you have never tried it, otherwise you wouldn't be claiming otherwise.
I think it's interesting that you would recommend being compassionate to others, as a universal rule, and use that to excuse your parents, and your school bullies. At what point were the bullies compassionate with you? If it's a rule to be compassionate and understanding, they should have followed it, right?
@lnd3005 Actually I have tried and it is easy. so did my brother and sister. but what's harder is going well it happened, its shit, but what have I learnt so I don't repeat and how can I be a better person. As for bullies I don't want to give them any more of my precious time thinking or blaming them. I would rather use what time I have left on this planet to be happy. but every one is different and if people need to really dig into the past for a few years then do it.
Used to listen and recommend. But the "angry tones" (09:55) and the {let's blame parents} is unfortunately a thought I can't follow. At 16, or at 14, saying "thanks so far - but we're done" and turning on your heels to walk your life - OK. Understanding your parents are eventually at the origin of some of the problems you have - sure. But the lack of elegance of billing one's ills and simply prosecute those who gave you life - is a road which will most likely lead to only more sadness. Forgive.
I tend to try to split "what hurts me" into three "categories", one where the person is intentionally mean and wants to hurt, a second which is due mostly to negligence yet could have maybe been avoided with some effort, and a third which is due to a situation where Superman in the same position couldn't have avoided it. Forgiving is more elegant than most think. Screw what the Christian pederasts did in the past 2000 years with what Jesus suggested, I say the guy maybe had a point.
Mind you, we both may well be saying the same thing, or at least I only disagree "slightly" with your comment. I'm not sure I can follow you when you write {telling people to forgive is exactly like telling them to "feel joy"}, to me, forgiving is more like telling people that "they do not need to feel morbidly indebted and that all agree to simply invite them to learn and outgrow the incident". If I say "forgive me" to a friend and he does - I may feel relieved, but not joyful/joyous.
It doesn't involve thinking, or planning, at a conscious level. It's emotional.
If your friend forgives you, after you ask, it's not b/c he consciously chooses to. He cannot do that. It's because his forgiveness came as an unconscious response to you sincerely asking for forgiveness, which in itself is an effort to earn that forgiveness.
Not too sure about that one - I've felt moments in my life where I obviously "had" the choice to forgive (at times I took it, at times I ignored it - but I had the choice). But give me a few days to think about what you wrote - it all sounds complicated and I need to digest it first... :)
@marcabela don't you think it is possible to forgive someone...but if they have committed a crime, shouldn't they be prosecuted for it? Why do people seem to think one should forgive a parent's violent abusive actions, simply because they are a parent? Why shouldn't parents face consequences for their actions if their child has been forced to face life-changing consequences (i.e. abuse) for no reason. I understand the moving on part of what you say, but am interested on your 'legal' opinion.
Another tough and challenging question. Sure, if parents have committed a crime - they should be prosecuted for it (not because they are parents - but because they are people, and the crime should be evaluated as such). I see so many people expect so much from their "parents" and wake up always many years too late in life to notice that their parents were nothing more than just... other people. Legally sure - but as people, not as how the child was expecting his parents to behave.
@marcabela I have never seen that in my entire life, i have never seen a son who expected too much from his parents, what you are saying is exactly what Stefan is talking about, you excuse them as "oh they are just people", we should not lower our moral standards to our loved ones.
Fair well then you just go ahead and build your society where all agree to put any parent who does not meet children's moral standard right into a cage - and that they are not to be forgiven even if (especially if?) they are our loves ones. Then the day you have kids just call me back and let us discuss how well the whole experience went. **Amazing to notice how more often than not people are themselves the exact violence they don't want to see in society. Even I - through this reply.
@marcabela are you insane?, when did i say parents should be locked up for not meeting children expectations? i said when judging parents looking back people are far far too forgiving.
Tell me more then, I will listen (even though I think you are probably digging your own whole and that with every sentence added to this kind of argument you will only find the whole to become deeper). But do tell me... People are too forgiving, you say. Far, far, too forgiving - you insist. What is wrong with forgiving (let alone with too forgiving, and/or far too forgiving) - tell me. Show us how you think. How should your kids evaluate you - tell us.
@marcabela being too forgiving to people close to you makes you lenient on your own blunders, unconditional love is just stupid if a close one becomes corrupt beyond repair in some way, loving them is wrong. That is in general why people are against "judging" its only their desire to not being judged and having their mistakes scrutinized.
I think we probably agree without noticing it. To me "forgive" includes the idea of simply "turning around and walking away" - without having to sue people to the ground. I have erased friends from my life in the past - and I'm sure some (many?) have turned around because of stuff I've said or things I did. All I'm saying is that parents gave you a ticket on this planet - you dislike the room service at 15, you can (/should?) turn around and do your own thing. Parents are just people.
You forgive for yourself, as resentment will ruin YOUR life and hurt nobody but yourself - constant obsessive mind&body unhappiness/stress (+spiritual cancer that slowly kills before time). I want to forgive, and have my mind truly free to function better. My aunt said that she was so angry, she even wished her parents death, only to realize that after they died they still stayed right in her head (and it took a lot of her energy).
Also, Stefbot, i am truly sorry your parents hurt you so much :(
Forgiving can be a choice for health reasons. Not forgiving=inviting the abuser to occupy my head, enabling more of their power over me and thus damage and WEAKEN ME more. Forgiving certainly and categorically does NOT have to be earned at all. Criminals may never change, does it mean that they have to sit in my head and damage the life out of me more than they have already done?Abuse should be confronted, brought to life and justice (not resented and drunk over, like people with resentment do).
I would have loved to have a father like him. How about, instead of making snide, one-line remarks, you actually state why you think he would be a bad parent? Wait, you don't actually have a reason? It's ok, you did the best you could.
@nathuwjohn here here! i totally agree! for heaven's sake we wouldn't want intelligent, rathional, good people reproducing! let's leave that up to abusive idiot like nathuwjohn!
@nathuwjohn Yeah, because clearly someone so committed to being a good parent, someone who has made significant change in his life in order to be an accessible, involved father, should stay away from parenting. /roll eyes/ Don't be a tosser - attack his argument, if you can. Don't make mean, baseless attacks on him as a person. It just makes you look like an ignorant ass with no point to make.
@nathuwjohn Yeah...public forum, so I guess not. Telling someone they shouldn't reproduce is mean, worthless ad hominem attack. If you WANT to look ignorant you should continue along those lines - it's working well so far.
I made this argument when I was 7 years old ; and got beatdown for it. I knew how to be a moral 7 year old.They tryed to show me what a moral 40 year old was like. I did the best I could not to buy in to it. It has been a lot of work. I don't know how much work they did trying to over come what morality they were subjected to; but I like to think that they did the best they could to see throgh the 'matrix'
I am so sorry this happened to you when you were so vulnerable and dependent. I have some very similar experiences, during my own childhood. But I no not believe my own parents "did their best."
Hitting a 7-yr old isn't just getting an F mark on parenting. It's like getting a straight 0%. If a person is intelligent enough to write her own name, and she gets a 0% on a test, and she claims she "did the best" she could, would you believe her?
Don't quite agree with everything you say here. First, rare is the individual who will first say they did their best and then present evidence to indicate otherwise. People will gloss over the days they partied and instead focus on magnifying obstacles for the purposes of denial. The other thing is, while morality for 7-year-olds aren't the same as for adults, academic tests are clearly defined while good parenting is not. I think as long as they pursue what they believe is best.
@whitechocolatespace Okay, need to slightly revise what I said because after 10 minutes of listening, I forgot how you premised the whole discourse. Yes, if one was abused as a child AND can look back objectively AND if it really is a universally accepted for this excuse, then I too reject the excuse. But based on your 'BITB series,' there is always going to be some amount of trauma/abuse since we all have some level of bias/belief about the world since all of it cannot be objectively known.
Given that the works of Alice Miller, and similar works, have been around since the early 80's, the excuse that good-parenting is ill-defined doesn't hold much water, and hasn't for nearly a generation.
Is good parenting is related to the amount of effort and care placed in parenting? The vast majority of parents can do a decent job in parenting through common sense, trial and error and a willingness to listen and change. I try not to care or worry too much about parenting because I think parents can get to stuck on predetermining the future outcomes of their children. Once I become too heavily invested in parenting, I start to affect natural outcome, free will and subjective determination.
-The vast majority of parents do not do a decent job. They do a bad job. If they didn't, the most adults would not be slaves of church and state. But they are.
-Attempting to be a good parent does not equate w/ trying to predetermine or control the lives of one's children. If someone is doing that, then he is trying to be bad parent, for his own gratification, not a good parent, for his child's sake.
@flexorder I think you're making a terrible mistake. It could very well be argued that parents determine the future outcomes of their children whether they are "too stuck on it" or not.
nobody is saying you dont have to forgive their mistakes, but you have to acknowledge they did mistakes, and they did not do the best they could, they fucked up and are responsible for it.
I forgive my parents, for what they did bad or wrong, and for what they should have but didn't. Now that I myself am a parent I do better for my child than was done for me. In a way I do what I wish my parents would have. The results are a very happy child.
@lnd3005 Forgiveness is an internal release of pain. If my parents asked for it and I did not give it, I would still feel the pain. If I did say I forgive, would it make them feel less pain? When you hurt others and you know it how you deal with it is up to you, when you don't know it, how can you ask for the person harmed to forgive you?
Do you think you can control your own pain, through will power? You can't.
If someone abuses me, I feel pain, even in the memory of the abuse, after it has ended. Wishing I could forgive my abuser will not make the pain go away, any more than wishing one were happy will make one happy. It's a fantasy.
My pain can only be reduced if my abuser comes clean and sincerely tries to make restitution to me. It's his choice. Not mine.
I totally agree that early childhood experience is the most powerful force affecting people. However, I also think that the quality of parenting people recieve is somewhat random. So while it is important that parents are exceptional, there are perhaps other forces of influence that deserve more of your attention. After all, not all abused children turn out wretched!
If someone runs away from a tiger, and they are too slow and the tiger gets them. Then you can say they did the best they could.
This is because all people fleeing tigers wish they could run faster. Likewise, all parents wish they were better parents. And nobody will ever care about you more than your parent will.
Terrific!!!
bestiaccia 3 weeks ago
You make some great points but you're not thinking about the whole picture. People that are abused as children have a certain mindset growing up and it is very hard to change that. They grow into adults and have kids with that wrong mindset, and that mindset allows them to keep out all the info that may make them better parents. They abuse their children and the cycle continues. They did do the best they could, their mind was closed off, and they couldn't do anything about that.
blueshift314 11 months ago
@blueshift314
He knows very well what the effects of child abuse are. Search for his "bomb in the brain" series to see.
The people you are describing absolutely did not do the best they could. They could have gotten help before they had children and we know they could have because people who have suffered the same abuse do so all the time. At least there is no abuse that i am aware of that makes people unable to pick up a phone and call a therapist, but able to raise a child.
FlailingJunk 11 months ago
@FlailingJunk Those people might be away that they could pick up the phone and call a therapist but that kind of thing isn't in the nature to simply do. The only reason we don't hold the same standards to children and their tests is b/c we are always behind them nagging them to study so they really have no excuse. These abusive parents really have no one telling them in a way they can absorb it in that they need to deal with their issues.
blueshift314 11 months ago
@blueshift314
First, nagging is a horrible way to treat a child, and does not mitigate the moral hypocrisy of the parents in any way. Actually the opposite, just try nagging them and see.
Second, "its not in their nature" is simply wrong. People who are abused seek help all the time, there is an entire profession dedicated to helping them and its existence is no secret. If someone has a child without dealing with their issues first that is a CHOICE they have made and are responsible for.
FlailingJunk 11 months ago
@blueshift314 NO! Maybe for some, but I can assure you there are a whole bunch of us who swore as children that we wouldn't have children until we had worked out what was going on, and did our best to change before bringing them into the world. That may have been the excuse my parents used when they abused me....but I WILL NOT copy them. Of course no-one's perfect....but it upsets me when I hear people talking about the cycle of abuse without considering the possibility of waking up to it all.
raingirlpoet 9 months ago
you are a very wise man.
Narutoguy89 11 months ago
Very nice, very solid... I love your analysis of ethics and morality... it's a similar conclusion to what I've arrived at in the past and had trouble with putting it to words... of course, I wasn't really going from the angle of parenting, but, it perfectly encapsulates the issue.
Thanks for taking the time to film this. Subscribed.
judgex 11 months ago
My son, theoreticalbullshit, turned me onto this video, and I am proud of him for it. I love this video. This was excellent and sanity producing. It is an unpopular stand, probably the most dangerous and insurgent of all stands. I laud this man. After I have commented, I will seek out his name. I would give him a standing ovation, if he could see me now. --Dr. Faye
IndrasWay 11 months ago
great video stef. I think this is actually a discussion that will be very widely developed in the near future. a vital part of our development which has, as you pointed out, been very widely overlooked both as a place for explanation into the nature of people.. as well as a place for solutions to many of the problems we see around us, not the last of which is the big disconnect from what WE ARE and what want people to be.
ultimategoobah 1 year ago
what about those how have problem with their parents? what do you suggest to them? go to work? Separate from parents? Kill them? Or be with them and use this stuff to abuse them for their mistakes? you do not have answer to these questions you only make the situation much more worse than it is. you put the parents and children against each other as enemies . you do not solve anything in this context.
2009thefreeman 1 year ago
What about parents that simply do not know any better? You mentioned a student studying for the Bar, that studied hard, came prepared and failed. That was ok. But what about people that, by example or enviroment, simply just do not know any better way to raise their child, other than by some negative route according to your standerds. I would agree with you entirely, except that you mentioned the "cycle" How would you propose to break this bad parenting cycle, in those cases?
crashjk 1 year ago
@crashjk
Ignorance is no excuse. If someone seeks information about parenting and just happens to chose bad sources that is forgivable, but there is no excuse for not even attempting to learn what good parenting looks like.
FlailingJunk 1 year ago
more people need to see this video dude.
also, i just finished studying for a test and now i want to study more because of this video because i feel like i still havent done the best i can
KevinLakhani 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Very interesting video.
I have a train of thought here.
As the parent of (one of each) and with the knowledge that I am doing a good job as a parent.
They have everything they need in life and more in terms of both physical and mental health (things and love) but I confess that I can do more for them.
One can always do more for them, so my best, I have in a way not done.
MoveOrder 1 year ago
Comment removed
MoveOrder 1 year ago
I tend to think that childhood is where we are supposed to learn the rules while I think learning when and where to break or bend those rules is what it means to be an adult. Where and when to bend, how much to bend, and where or when to utterly break or disregard those rules I think, is something that may take a lifetime to master.
ProfessorP 1 year ago
@ProfessorP Tears come to my eyes reading your comment. Not in a positive way. It is truly saddening, maddening even, that you would try to rationalize this kind of hypocrisy. Unfortunately, I don't even think you'd be able to see that hypocrisy and what's wrong with it, as if you've been broken; like 98% of all other children raised in cultures are so near becoming.
slaughtz 1 year ago
Nintendo?? Seriously dude, is that "doing the best that you can"?? In what age are you living?
justanote7 1 year ago
The end of this video was quite overwhelming. 9:50 on.
Shalek 1 year ago
So, ethics is unethical. Got it.
nymphrenic 1 year ago
It's startling that the relevant comments are about parenting when the video was not about parenting. Parenting is merely an example, practically a metaphor, for the hypocrisy of inculpable authority.
We perceive our roles (assigned or autonomous) and seek to fulfill them. Questioning the expectations we have accepted for ourselves does not come naturally until we can find or create new expectations (roles) for ourselves.
akaei0 1 year ago
Great video, very thought provoking.
As a parent myself I can honestly say that I am not doing the best that I can, but for some strange reason I still feel compelled to add "but i am still doing the best I can".
Maybe its "excuses" that are hereditary?
123backinyerface 1 year ago
Your analogy between the test of parenthood and the test of the bar exam breaks down in more than one way. For one: people see many different well-accepted avenues to approach parenting. They also see relatively fewer viable approaches to completing bar exams. What you need to argue that certain parenting strategies, like ones that don't involve reading parenting books, are wrong because of a, b, or c. Not that people who chose this accepted avenue are akin to people blowing off a test.
gamerman2360 1 year ago
Stefan just for laughs, what are your thoughts on the Spartan way of raising children?
xxCrazySmooth 1 year ago
PS: For whatever this means, I unfortunately find myself thinking it's better if I refrain from introducing your material to friends (let alone my parents?) just because of this one "idea". I think this feeling of mine may be shared by most who are "not too unsatisfied" by the work of their parents (and either forgive / or just simply think "I'll try to do better myself")... Anyway. We have to do better tomorrow, type of phrasing, yes. Everything so far was crap, not too sure about portability.
marcabela 1 year ago
Judging parents on how much bad they gave you - is as dishonest as judging the government on how much good it gave you. If parents gave you life along with food, a shelter, and clothes up until the age 14 - and you're not happy with the room service or with the church they picked for you, then you just turn around politely, say thanks for everything, and "you just walk away" (quote). Any violent finger pointing is everything but elegant and cannot lead to peace and long term problem solving.
marcabela 1 year ago
@marcabela You miss the point entirely. The examples you gave are minor; how well you thought your mother cleaned up after you, or your parents choice of religious associations. But what about a parent that doesn't really take good care of their child? What about a parent that never supports their child in their endeavors? What about a parent that abuses their child? We are not talking about minor faults, here, sir. Go make bare assertions elsewhere.
thewrittenWerd 1 year ago
@thewrittenWerd,
"Go make bare assertions elsewhere"
:)
Well, well - sounds like you've got all it takes in elegance and patience of mind to make a good parent yourself.
Interesting to see how all who point fingers in all directions throughout life always wake up way too late to the basic fallacy that they were all, all along, just simply pointing fingers... at the mirror.
Parents are humans, they screw up, have short-comings, cheat, they lie to themselves - you can only run away. Or do better.
marcabela 1 year ago
@marcabela It is not dishonest to say that your mother shouldn't have been drinking when they had you. It is not dishonest to say that your tobacco burns were the responsibility of a terrible person. There are things that are genuinely bad and that parents should be held accountable for. I don't believe that finger pointing cannot lead to peace, but even if that were true it doesn't change the fact that certain parents did things they shouldn't have done.
gamerman2360 1 year ago
woah!!! ..some powerful emotional connection there. great points beautifully put. tx.
andthereisntone 1 year ago
It is very interesting that I stumbled upon this video, having just gone through a rapid re-evaluation of my own parent's virtues, and questioning the virtues of my stepmother to her face.
Thankyou Stef, I've been a long time fan and you have helped me to grow exponentially.
merrett 1 year ago
Go Stef. I am honest with myself, and others. When I epic fail at something, I am the first to admit it. Most people won't, especially when they fock up their children, or allow them to be focked up by "society and the government".
MrDorkusMaximus 1 year ago 2
Too wordy before getting to the point.
genesisx100 1 year ago
Instead of saying "I did the best I could", how about: "I did the best that I chose to do as an adult"?
scotchrks 1 year ago
@scotchrks "I did the best that I chose to do as an adult" is just a BS wuss statement.
DaveDoggOwns 1 year ago
Not on topic here, but wondering when the videos will come regarding real-world transition from statist society to non-statist society. We can't just *blink* ourselves into a new paradigm.
OregonCoastGhost 1 year ago
love that, people always attempt to ignore the personal, skip to the universal.
hehehehe, wouldn't that be great, do as i say, not as i do!
separates the adults from the children, dont it? heheheh
great episode stefan!
ventper 1 year ago
Well, there are alot of good things out there on parenting now...Aletha Soulter, Faber and Mazlish, etc. But...we should not forget that one of the main things that made the world a worse place, was parents believing experts, and adopting drugged birth, formula, separate sleeping, "leaving children to cry it out", etc.
givebirthathome 1 year ago
@givebirthathome I'd guess that Stefan was either trying to address a wider audience by not getting into that tangent or that he's not an parent himself and therefore hasn't done those bits of research.
But, I think he'd agree that, when it came time to "study" to be a parent, simply "trusting" the experts and considering that "good enough" and "the best that you could do" wouldn't really make the mark.
spiralpasta 1 year ago
@spiralpasta Thanks. Stefan is the parent of a young child. He makes a good point that to not even trying to be conscious is certainly not "the best that you could do", and
alot of people are making this mistake. With a child growing, the fact is, you will make many mistakes before you can figure things out . Sadly, with several families, the difference btwn 1st & 2nd in favor of the second, seemed to really bear this out. Also read Paolo Freire on poverty and learning.
givebirthathome 1 year ago
@givebirthathome With the bulk of our congress saying they couldn't penetrate the lying "weapons of mass destruction" propaganda coming from the executive, do we really expect parents to completely wend their way through childrearing "experts" who are just as crazy as the rest of society?
So, I'm just advocating balance. ..yes, some parents haven't tried to do much, yes, other parents, who may not have done a very good job, DID do the best they could. Let's not fool ourselves...
givebirthathome 1 year ago
@givebirthathome when you've had bad parenting, its the most painful thing you can experience. But the truth is, when you've really faced it, which takes alot of courage many people don't want to admit they don't have....you heal, and when you heal, you do see "they did the best they could"....meanwhile, for some folks, their parents may still be such toxic people they can't have anything/much to do with them. But people shouldn't cheat themselves of their own healing, by quick&dirty blame.
givebirthathome 1 year ago
@givebirthathome Stefan's said something valuable here, as usual, but I know darn well, how it can be misused.
givebirthathome 1 year ago
@givebirthathome
It is not the most painful thing in the world of experiences. There are more worse situations that come to mind from my own life and if I can name this many,... I cant really believe that.
imjustsolittle 1 year ago
@imjustsolittle You're lucky justsolittle...if you were on the floor, your mother was kicking you and saying, "I'm going to kill you"...I think it would rank up there amongst most painful things you can experience.
givebirthathome 1 year ago
@givebirthathome
It looks more like you started to advocate for empiricism and consequences for perjury but changed your mind.
akaei0 1 year ago
@akaei0 Are you seeking to understand anything I can help you with? I'm not sure what your statement is referring to.
givebirthathome 1 year ago
@givebirthathome
I'm referring to the comment that begins: "With the bulk of our congress..."
Rather than calling for accountability you switch back to parents and seem to be saying that all experts are equally incredible. Also, while I would suggest that no one does their best (I'm ignoring determinism), you are claiming (without explaining why) that even without any evidence of effort on their part, there are parents (and leaders?) of whom we should assume they have done their best.
akaei0 1 year ago
@akaei0 I see. It does seem as if I am saying that the Congress "did their best"... a few of them are obviously stupid enough to make it likely that they did do their best, but in general, that is not only not what I believe, I have explained to many people that ...there performance was not acceptable, and that people should not judge their representatives as adequate, because they perhaps made the same mistakes themselves, because the representatives have put themselves into a position of
givebirthathome 1 year ago
@akaei0 professional responsibility. I am not advocating that people should assume leaders have done their best, merely pointing out that whole situation as a example of one where some people are lying, and others have been duped. With parents, I wouldn't advocate that people should assume they have done their best, either, but I think Stefan is making the opposite point too strongly...which doesn't necessarily help the situation improve. People are irrational..they've been raped, abused by
givebirthathome 1 year ago
@akaei0 their own parents, etc. etc. and it takes a huge amount of living before those experiences are overcome. ...and part of the insanity induced, is not seeing, struggling *even harder* (because of devastating low feelings of self-worth) than more normal people, *not to see* where these injuries have made you incapable of relating healthily with other people. And our society not only gives bad parenting advice, per se, it ...by the very requirements of survival in this society, encourages
givebirthathome 1 year ago
@akaei0 relentless outward focus and competition, rather than the emotional awareness and connection, which could possibly lead to people having a clue about themselves before they have children.
Under these circumstances, YES, I have seen *many* parents heroically "doing their best", keeping their heads above water, and being good enough to give their kids a chance at life, while making plenty of mistakes. In *some* cases...compassionate understanding would yield much better results for
givebirthathome 1 year ago
@akaei0 all concerned. Obviously I am not talking about unrealistic denial, when a parent continues destructive behavior like drinking, or even psychologically destructive behavior.
It is very hard for a child to understand its parents effort or lack of effort. One mother I knew...created a lot of havoc in her young son's life by restricting him for his own protection...at least that's what she thought she was doing. He was pretty angry at her as a teen, but
givebirthathome 1 year ago
@akaei0 I was with them, day in day out over the years, and I *know* all the things she did for him. I also know I told her NOT to do the things she did *to* him, but she couldn't stop, because she thought she was doing the right things. Because she herself was molested as a child, and it came out as dysfunctional anxiety for his welfare. She went to therapy too, but .,.it takes time, and during that time, she irremediably marked his childhood....while diligently taking care of his health,
givebirthathome 1 year ago
@akaei0 doing everything within her limited resources to respect his privacy, being involved in his school, making sure he had friends to play with, etc.
My own mother did a pretty execrable job...but I eventually saw that she was continually ill during most of my childhood, and nobody else in the family cared to explain this to me. That didn't change the huge damage it had caused, but forgiveness kept my resentment from depriving me of what I could have as an adult with my mother.
givebirthathome 1 year ago
@akaei0 Because she did have good will. It is too bad people are so careless that they might say to someone whose parents basically did not have good will, that "they did their best"... but many parents did do their best.
Ha...one mother let her partner convince her there was something wrong with her, when she objected to him engaging in sexual conduct with their daughter. Fortunately another neighbor helped her kick him out. Big mistake...but she loved her daughter.
givebirthathome 1 year ago
@givebirthathome
Having good will or good intentions does not equate to doing one's best. Trying a little, putting forth a reasonable effort or even trying hard is not the same as doing one's best. But all of this is missing the point. The point is that ethics in general places culpability almost completely on the subordinate and little if any on the superior.
"They did their best" may approximate the truth or it may be a cop out. Regardless, the claim is not challenged when made authority.
akaei0 1 year ago
Web Bots have predicted a "tipping point" for Nov. 8-11, 2010. The last tipping point was Sept. 11,2001 and Web Bots predicted it, accurately, 95 days before it happened. The upcoming one will differ, inasmuch as it will be "much bigger", in terms of impact worldwide. It will be greater than all of the false flags, false wars, assassinations, economic terrorism, financial terrorism, fraudulent elections etc., of the past 60 years combined. Obama has arranged to be in the Orient Nov 4-14. Think.
rollsthepaul 1 year ago
@rollsthepaul by "Web Bots" I think you mean the "Web Bot Project" run by Ure and High. If so, please know that this is a commercial venture with monetary motives and a very dodgy track record.
spiralpasta 1 year ago
This is a great point, mainly to be applied for this and future generations of parents. Personally I see that there was not so much freedom of information such as the internet for past generations of parents. Secondly, embarking on the hellish attempt to get elder past-parents, stuck in their ways to admit they failed at making the best of their potential parenting skills, to me, is pointless because the damage is done. However the current and future parents have NO EXCUSES from here on in.
ProjectEndure 1 year ago
I agree 100%! I love my parents, but I'm fully aware that they failed me as such and I would never follow their example. And I'll not make any excuses for them either. It took me years to unload all the emotional damage I suffered. I feel free today, including free to recognize their mistakes so I won't repeat them in my own life. In that light I can say they taught me valuable lessons. :)
christinabreault 1 year ago
Stefan has made a great point again, thanks Stefan.
UrbanNiche 1 year ago
you pass the 18th centuary drama reading award , great delievery and good points also , for me the easiest way to pass the parenting exam is , not have kids ;)
jmm1233 1 year ago
If I'm forced to come to a conclusion, I'm an anti-natalist. This world sucks and suffering is inevitable. Every parent forces a child into this world and no person ever had a choice about being born. At best, life is short with some brief moments of pleasure and you die young. At worst, life can be a living hell where one can experience tremendous suffering and it usually gets worse the older you get. Anyone who brings a child into this world has by that act lost all moral superiority.
MarmaladeINFP 1 year ago
@MarmaladeINFP Indeed!
kittencartman 1 year ago
There is no need to defend her. It is what it is? Your assumption is incorrect. When you lose the bread maker of the family, and having 4 children. And your mother was a stay at home mother. Its not being unprepared. But its life. There are circumstances in life that is constantly changing and evolving. Unable to provide enough income, in order to attend to the childs development is all about the enslavement of the capitalist system.
c22dividedby7 1 year ago
i'm under the impression that parents don't strive for absolute excellence; they just have assumed an arbitrary level of adequacy to reach. anytime i've ever mentioned the fact that i take special note on the times when my parents are cruel, the rebuttal is always "well did you have food and clothes and a roof over your head? they're good parents then." good parenting is not simply providing; too many parents don't realize how they are molding a young soul into a person.
SloganLogan 1 year ago 2
One should be careful when juding their parents. Blame can often be the things that holds us back in life. True not all parents would of done the best in their postions but even the ones that do can't always help their kids. They can blame themselves and/or be blame for how things turn out. The past should be there to learn, to hold on to hatered and regret to lived in the past.
Johncalabro7 1 year ago
Your argument is flawed. In the since that My mother was a single parent who had to work 1 full-time job, and a part time job. In order to provide the enssentials. Yea there were some things that happened, But there are prorities in judgements.
Maybe in the life you live you have the opportunity and the free-time to access this knowledge. The problem isnt that their isnt good parenting, but their isnt enough time of the day.
SHE DID THE BEST SHE CAN(.)
c22dividedby7 1 year ago
@c22dividedby7 you only say the argument is flawed b/c you feel like you have to defend ur mom. empirically , it seems it can all be summed up by saying she was under a lot of pressure most of the time. i understand it sounds callous, but a lot of single mom's, my mother included, think they can parent and work all the time. if abuse evolves out of the stress, then that's an indication to me that they were unprepared, especially considering divorce.
SloganLogan 1 year ago
@c22dividedby7 I am in the same boat as you. I wasn't breast fed simply because my mother didn't have the time of day. I'm assuming you were a only child because of divorce, which is the same as me, in which case your mother failed to use good judgement in picking a mate. And if you mother is like mine continued to make bad judgements with two more violent husbands. For a long time I thought my mother was just unlucky, but that's not fair to me. I don't think it's fair to you either.
gradiu3rox 1 year ago
thank you for this
JermJus 1 year ago
I raised two stepsons trying to use my life experience, my upbringing and my religious training. I searched the Bible for answers and got advice from elder family members and I still screwed the pooch with the boys. The one that's doing ok doesn't talk to us much. The one that talks to us...isn't doing well.
Then we had two girls. When I noticed that the older girl wasn't happy, I started looking harder. Actually, I wouldn't have without Stef's encouragement.
OldWhig1688 1 year ago
My memes are off to you.
Thank you buddy, thank you!
barrywilliamsmb 1 year ago
Failure has no uniform standard. You seem to understand this. "Doing your best" also has no standard. It is conceivably possible that there are people for whom "the best I could " involves taking the test but not studying for it. It is only because that claim is so absurdly unlikely that we think it is false. I reject the term "expert" as far as parenting goes. There is, again, no standard for good parenting. I think your Bar metaphor fails here. The point of the Bar is to create a standard
simchamo 1 year ago
the Bible says to honor your father and mother,i realized as an adult caring for my dishonorable father that God didn't mean for me to honor a dishonorable father or mother.i fucked up as a parent also,i failed the test.
areyoulookinatmepal1 1 year ago
OneWingedShark 1 year ago
I'd have to agree with most of this except I have a different point of view. The excuse 'they did the best they could' of course is untrue, but 'they did what their conditioned unfreed mind was capable of', would be a better way to put it imo.
ritherz 1 year ago
I have unconditionally forgiven my parents for their abusive / destructive parenting as a gift to both them and myself. It has helped me to move onto a more productive and satisfying life.
Darkhorse21x 1 year ago
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SopraTutt1 1 year ago
Ironically, it has come to pass in Alberta that children are now graded upon what they "could have done" as opposed to what they have actually done.
Is this an example of applying the same ethhical standards to children that we apply to adults? Does this create a "race to the bottom" or is there now an advantage to having a "level playing field" for both children and adults in terms of our ethical expectations of both demographics?
Darkhorse21x 1 year ago
@Darkhorse21x Down here in the US most children are passed regardless of their performance. We call it "social promotion," and justify it by claiming that it would be more damaging to leave a child behind his or her classmates than to alleviate their responsibilities. If we cannot leave this mindset behind, we will lose any competitiveness in the world economy/environment.
thedamnedapostle 1 year ago
"The fundamental vice is always dishonesty, and the dishonesty in the realm of morality is always hypocrisy."
thevanities11 1 year ago
It's really uncomfortable and unthinkable for some people to question their parents methods. In many cases they want to prop them up on a pedestal, even if the parents were extremely abusive. Like a type of Stockholm syndrome.
It's a common occurrence that the abused are likely to reenact that abuse when they mature, but through confronting the violence of their own parents at the root of their upbringing, and not burying it under the rug, they can see it in themselves and not repeat history.
Iseeyoursoul 1 year ago 14
@Iseeyoursoul I agree that they'll reenact what they've experienced and should question their parents' methods. But unlike some people who don't believe it's okay to spank kids or stuff like that, I think kids should be disciplined. Every time I see a self absorbed person with little respect for others I thank the fact that my parents were rough enough with me to castigate me, but also loved me and made sure that my discipline wasn't at all abusive. There's a big difference there.
TheZetz 1 year ago
@Iseeyoursoul Yeah, have you read any of alice miller or arthur janov's books
LTBL88 1 year ago
Stef, the real WMD's are not the atomic bombs and lazer weapons, and drone soldiers etc.... it's the violence that is directed at children early on, that shape them into these monsters that would DROP the bombs, and kill others.
Iseeyoursoul 1 year ago 11
This has been flagged as spam show
You are so full of shit...
Do you even have children?
batfly 1 year ago
You never care what someone says you only care what they do and should only look at evidence they present...
I find it hard to believe you never take someones word and expect to back it up with hard evidence... I take it relationships are quite an ordeal for you?
Or do you have one?
batfly 1 year ago
@batfly Stef tells his whole life story on videos and in podcasts. Check them out. The basic rule is, listen to what they say and watch what they do. And judge for yourself whether they're worth keeping in your life.
OldWhig1688 1 year ago
@OldWhig1688
Yeah, I just donated 50.00 to Free Domain Radio
batfly 1 year ago
I love your refreshing analogies!! My parents, particularly mother is a horribly manipulative personality. She will use every device to undermine my sanity and view point with utter emotional disreguard for how she might affect me or the truth.
The confusing part of this whole ordeal is she will use the guise of self-sacrifice and the idea she is being positive/accomplishing something good to rationalize her behavior. In the end, the whole family functions of fantasy with no passion.
Rcwatson83 1 year ago 3
Great points Stefan ,On a slight parable I sometimes refer to the masters as children sulking in a corner throwing the tyranny around every time mankind pushes back , but no way in hell would they get the Oh well you did the best you can when I know categorically they didn't do the best ,actually in fact they may have gone out of there way to do the opposite like a spoiled brat . he he
Detention would be more appropriate rather than a good thrashing in my humble opinion.
chotaboy66 1 year ago
Love your explorations. I have to disagree with your examples of parents doing their best, but only because you seem not to take into account what the parents *believe* about parenting. My parents sometimes beat me savagely, and I hate them for it, but if I face the harsh truth, I have to admit that they believed themselves to be doing the right thing when doing so.
GreatBigBore 1 year ago
@GreatBigBore
How do you know they thought that?
Also, what kind of defense is that? Imagine if I found some man littering on the side of the road, and beat him savagely, thinking it was for his good.
What do you think the judge is going to say when I tell him "I thought I was doing what was best for him."
lnd3005 1 year ago
@lnd3005 "How do you know they thought that?"
Because I believed it myself when I habitually hit a child who was in my care. It took me a long time to realize that I was harming her, not helping her. I'm not defending them; as I said, I hate them for it. I was only addressing a flaw stefbot's argument. If I truly believe that I am doing good, and even believe that educating oneself is counterproductive, then although I may be stupid and dangerous, I can't be considered entirely reprobate.
GreatBigBore 1 year ago
Hindsight is 20/20. Everything I've done in my life I could have done better. I am not making excuses for my parents, but they did think they were doing the best they could. I still give them and A for effort.
AndyWright68 1 year ago
They may not have done the best they could but they did what they thought was the best for us.
AndyWright68 1 year ago
Hail Indian Parenting. A lesson for whole world to follow. Note: Its not abt being economically backwards there are exa,ples of bad parenting in all economic caders...in other countries.
Manjo1981 1 year ago
Let me just say...thank you. You are worth listening to, and I do.
StUDioROMe 1 year ago
all in all it's just a...nother brink in the wall...
rtardbox 1 year ago
harsh but true stef
crazybasement 1 year ago
I say its easy to constantly blame your parents, I choose to look forward and become a better person from the lessons I have learnt thus far. Not everything is parents, for instance I was bullied a lot at school. The way I deal with that is with compassion for the bully as they must have been bullied at home. I couldn't do that as a child but can do it now. I am supper happy in my life and choose to live in the now and look forward to the future. :)
jaminunit 1 year ago
@jaminunit
Actually, it's really hard to blame your parents. I suspect you have never tried it, otherwise you wouldn't be claiming otherwise.
I think it's interesting that you would recommend being compassionate to others, as a universal rule, and use that to excuse your parents, and your school bullies. At what point were the bullies compassionate with you? If it's a rule to be compassionate and understanding, they should have followed it, right?
lnd3005 1 year ago
@lnd3005 Actually I have tried and it is easy. so did my brother and sister. but what's harder is going well it happened, its shit, but what have I learnt so I don't repeat and how can I be a better person. As for bullies I don't want to give them any more of my precious time thinking or blaming them. I would rather use what time I have left on this planet to be happy. but every one is different and if people need to really dig into the past for a few years then do it.
jaminunit 1 year ago
Great great great video, once again you give new insights into things most of us take for granted, You are a true inspirational stef.
Paralyt1c 1 year ago
Excellent video, but I am afraid you incorrectly progressed from "moral are often to enforce X" to "morals exist only to enforce X".
DarkwingScooter 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Stefan quit his job for this? lol
Grutch 1 year ago
Used to listen and recommend. But the "angry tones" (09:55) and the {let's blame parents} is unfortunately a thought I can't follow. At 16, or at 14, saying "thanks so far - but we're done" and turning on your heels to walk your life - OK. Understanding your parents are eventually at the origin of some of the problems you have - sure. But the lack of elegance of billing one's ills and simply prosecute those who gave you life - is a road which will most likely lead to only more sadness. Forgive.
marcabela 1 year ago
@marcabela
Forgiveness is not a choice. It's an emotional response you experience when someone has earned it, though actions toward you.
Telling people to forgive is exactly like telling them to "feel joy."
lnd3005 1 year ago
@lnd3005,
I tend to try to split "what hurts me" into three "categories", one where the person is intentionally mean and wants to hurt, a second which is due mostly to negligence yet could have maybe been avoided with some effort, and a third which is due to a situation where Superman in the same position couldn't have avoided it. Forgiving is more elegant than most think. Screw what the Christian pederasts did in the past 2000 years with what Jesus suggested, I say the guy maybe had a point.
marcabela 1 year ago
@lnd3005,
Mind you, we both may well be saying the same thing, or at least I only disagree "slightly" with your comment. I'm not sure I can follow you when you write {telling people to forgive is exactly like telling them to "feel joy"}, to me, forgiving is more like telling people that "they do not need to feel morbidly indebted and that all agree to simply invite them to learn and outgrow the incident". If I say "forgive me" to a friend and he does - I may feel relieved, but not joyful/joyous.
marcabela 1 year ago
@marcabela
One cannot choose to forgive. It is involuntary.
It doesn't involve thinking, or planning, at a conscious level. It's emotional.
If your friend forgives you, after you ask, it's not b/c he consciously chooses to. He cannot do that. It's because his forgiveness came as an unconscious response to you sincerely asking for forgiveness, which in itself is an effort to earn that forgiveness.
lnd3005 1 year ago
@lnd3005
Not too sure about that one - I've felt moments in my life where I obviously "had" the choice to forgive (at times I took it, at times I ignored it - but I had the choice). But give me a few days to think about what you wrote - it all sounds complicated and I need to digest it first... :)
Cheers.
marcabela 1 year ago
@marcabela don't you think it is possible to forgive someone...but if they have committed a crime, shouldn't they be prosecuted for it? Why do people seem to think one should forgive a parent's violent abusive actions, simply because they are a parent? Why shouldn't parents face consequences for their actions if their child has been forced to face life-changing consequences (i.e. abuse) for no reason. I understand the moving on part of what you say, but am interested on your 'legal' opinion.
raingirlpoet 9 months ago
@raingirlpoet,
Another tough and challenging question. Sure, if parents have committed a crime - they should be prosecuted for it (not because they are parents - but because they are people, and the crime should be evaluated as such). I see so many people expect so much from their "parents" and wake up always many years too late in life to notice that their parents were nothing more than just... other people. Legally sure - but as people, not as how the child was expecting his parents to behave.
marcabela 9 months ago
@marcabela I have never seen that in my entire life, i have never seen a son who expected too much from his parents, what you are saying is exactly what Stefan is talking about, you excuse them as "oh they are just people", we should not lower our moral standards to our loved ones.
baalshin 8 months ago
@baalshin,
Fair well then you just go ahead and build your society where all agree to put any parent who does not meet children's moral standard right into a cage - and that they are not to be forgiven even if (especially if?) they are our loves ones. Then the day you have kids just call me back and let us discuss how well the whole experience went. **Amazing to notice how more often than not people are themselves the exact violence they don't want to see in society. Even I - through this reply.
marcabela 8 months ago
@marcabela are you insane?, when did i say parents should be locked up for not meeting children expectations? i said when judging parents looking back people are far far too forgiving.
baalshin 8 months ago
@baalshin,
Tell me more then, I will listen (even though I think you are probably digging your own whole and that with every sentence added to this kind of argument you will only find the whole to become deeper). But do tell me... People are too forgiving, you say. Far, far, too forgiving - you insist. What is wrong with forgiving (let alone with too forgiving, and/or far too forgiving) - tell me. Show us how you think. How should your kids evaluate you - tell us.
marcabela 8 months ago
@marcabela being too forgiving to people close to you makes you lenient on your own blunders, unconditional love is just stupid if a close one becomes corrupt beyond repair in some way, loving them is wrong. That is in general why people are against "judging" its only their desire to not being judged and having their mistakes scrutinized.
baalshin 8 months ago
@baalshin,
I think we probably agree without noticing it. To me "forgive" includes the idea of simply "turning around and walking away" - without having to sue people to the ground. I have erased friends from my life in the past - and I'm sure some (many?) have turned around because of stuff I've said or things I did. All I'm saying is that parents gave you a ticket on this planet - you dislike the room service at 15, you can (/should?) turn around and do your own thing. Parents are just people.
marcabela 8 months ago
You forgive for yourself, as resentment will ruin YOUR life and hurt nobody but yourself - constant obsessive mind&body unhappiness/stress (+spiritual cancer that slowly kills before time). I want to forgive, and have my mind truly free to function better. My aunt said that she was so angry, she even wished her parents death, only to realize that after they died they still stayed right in her head (and it took a lot of her energy).
Also, Stefbot, i am truly sorry your parents hurt you so much :(
alennna 1 year ago
@alennna
Forgiveness is not a choice. It's an emotional response. You can't "make" yourself forgive. It has to be earned.
Forgiving abusive people is enabling.
lnd3005 1 year ago
@lnd3005
Thank you from making that clear.
WestLake009 1 year ago
Forgiving can be a choice for health reasons. Not forgiving=inviting the abuser to occupy my head, enabling more of their power over me and thus damage and WEAKEN ME more. Forgiving certainly and categorically does NOT have to be earned at all. Criminals may never change, does it mean that they have to sit in my head and damage the life out of me more than they have already done?Abuse should be confronted, brought to life and justice (not resented and drunk over, like people with resentment do).
alennna 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
stefbot-do the world a favor any NEVER reproduce-thank you!
nathuwjohn 1 year ago
@nathuwjohn He has a daughter
boxofotters 1 year ago
@boxofotters God help us...
nathuwjohn 1 year ago
Comment removed
viehe69 1 year ago
@nathuwjohn Uh, no.
I would have loved to have a father like him. How about, instead of making snide, one-line remarks, you actually state why you think he would be a bad parent? Wait, you don't actually have a reason? It's ok, you did the best you could.
boxofotters 1 year ago 3
@nathuwjohn here here! i totally agree! for heaven's sake we wouldn't want intelligent, rathional, good people reproducing! let's leave that up to abusive idiot like nathuwjohn!
rtardbox 1 year ago
@rtardbox intelligent-hahhahhaha and good-rofffflllllllll
nathuwjohn 1 year ago
@nathuwjohn Yeah, because clearly someone so committed to being a good parent, someone who has made significant change in his life in order to be an accessible, involved father, should stay away from parenting. /roll eyes/ Don't be a tosser - attack his argument, if you can. Don't make mean, baseless attacks on him as a person. It just makes you look like an ignorant ass with no point to make.
rivenrock 1 year ago 2
@rivenrock Never said any of what you just said...so stfu! =]
nathuwjohn 1 year ago
@nathuwjohn Yeah...public forum, so I guess not. Telling someone they shouldn't reproduce is mean, worthless ad hominem attack. If you WANT to look ignorant you should continue along those lines - it's working well so far.
rivenrock 1 year ago 2
@rivenrock oh well???? and???
nathuwjohn 1 year ago
Comment removed
whitechocolatespace 1 year ago
I made this argument when I was 7 years old ; and got beatdown for it. I knew how to be a moral 7 year old.They tryed to show me what a moral 40 year old was like. I did the best I could not to buy in to it. It has been a lot of work. I don't know how much work they did trying to over come what morality they were subjected to; but I like to think that they did the best they could to see throgh the 'matrix'
GreatDepressionTwo 1 year ago
@GreatDepressionTwo
I am so sorry this happened to you when you were so vulnerable and dependent. I have some very similar experiences, during my own childhood. But I no not believe my own parents "did their best."
Hitting a 7-yr old isn't just getting an F mark on parenting. It's like getting a straight 0%. If a person is intelligent enough to write her own name, and she gets a 0% on a test, and she claims she "did the best" she could, would you believe her?
lnd3005 1 year ago
Don't quite agree with everything you say here. First, rare is the individual who will first say they did their best and then present evidence to indicate otherwise. People will gloss over the days they partied and instead focus on magnifying obstacles for the purposes of denial. The other thing is, while morality for 7-year-olds aren't the same as for adults, academic tests are clearly defined while good parenting is not. I think as long as they pursue what they believe is best.
whitechocolatespace 1 year ago
@whitechocolatespace Okay, need to slightly revise what I said because after 10 minutes of listening, I forgot how you premised the whole discourse. Yes, if one was abused as a child AND can look back objectively AND if it really is a universally accepted for this excuse, then I too reject the excuse. But based on your 'BITB series,' there is always going to be some amount of trauma/abuse since we all have some level of bias/belief about the world since all of it cannot be objectively known.
whitechocolatespace 1 year ago
@whitechocolatespace
Given that the works of Alice Miller, and similar works, have been around since the early 80's, the excuse that good-parenting is ill-defined doesn't hold much water, and hasn't for nearly a generation.
lnd3005 1 year ago
obvious darklord troll is obvious
twistedbydsign99 1 year ago
So talking is not something you do...
Virtueman1 1 year ago
My parents did the best they could.
a7nwee 1 year ago
Is good parenting is related to the amount of effort and care placed in parenting? The vast majority of parents can do a decent job in parenting through common sense, trial and error and a willingness to listen and change. I try not to care or worry too much about parenting because I think parents can get to stuck on predetermining the future outcomes of their children. Once I become too heavily invested in parenting, I start to affect natural outcome, free will and subjective determination.
flexorder 1 year ago
@flexorder
I am sure your kids will appreciate you winging it during the most consequential phase of their brain development.
FlailingJunk 1 year ago 10
@flexorder
-The vast majority of parents do not do a decent job. They do a bad job. If they didn't, the most adults would not be slaves of church and state. But they are.
-Attempting to be a good parent does not equate w/ trying to predetermine or control the lives of one's children. If someone is doing that, then he is trying to be bad parent, for his own gratification, not a good parent, for his child's sake.
lnd3005 1 year ago
@flexorder I think you're making a terrible mistake. It could very well be argued that parents determine the future outcomes of their children whether they are "too stuck on it" or not.
andrewh817 1 year ago
Actually Stef I think they're going to these standards in some schools.
newperve 1 year ago
Stef ~ you are absolutely onto it. Loved this vid. So well said !
RenegadeTimes 1 year ago
stephan<a silver-back gorilla on pcp equipped with a blowtorch.
Uberdoppelganger 1 year ago
nobody is saying you dont have to forgive their mistakes, but you have to acknowledge they did mistakes, and they did not do the best they could, they fucked up and are responsible for it.
baalshin 1 year ago
I forgive my parents, for what they did bad or wrong, and for what they should have but didn't. Now that I myself am a parent I do better for my child than was done for me. In a way I do what I wish my parents would have. The results are a very happy child.
MrBankRuns 1 year ago
@MrBankRuns
Did your parents ever ask for your forgiveness?
lnd3005 1 year ago
@lnd3005 Forgiveness is an internal release of pain. If my parents asked for it and I did not give it, I would still feel the pain. If I did say I forgive, would it make them feel less pain? When you hurt others and you know it how you deal with it is up to you, when you don't know it, how can you ask for the person harmed to forgive you?
MrBankRuns 1 year ago
@MrBankRuns
Do you think you can control your own pain, through will power? You can't.
If someone abuses me, I feel pain, even in the memory of the abuse, after it has ended. Wishing I could forgive my abuser will not make the pain go away, any more than wishing one were happy will make one happy. It's a fantasy.
My pain can only be reduced if my abuser comes clean and sincerely tries to make restitution to me. It's his choice. Not mine.
BTW parents know when they hurt their children.
lnd3005 1 year ago
I totally agree that early childhood experience is the most powerful force affecting people. However, I also think that the quality of parenting people recieve is somewhat random. So while it is important that parents are exceptional, there are perhaps other forces of influence that deserve more of your attention. After all, not all abused children turn out wretched!
everst 1 year ago
Brilliant!
graphattic 1 year ago
If someone runs away from a tiger, and they are too slow and the tiger gets them. Then you can say they did the best they could.
This is because all people fleeing tigers wish they could run faster. Likewise, all parents wish they were better parents. And nobody will ever care about you more than your parent will.
cynthiaall 1 year ago