ST-SULPICE IN PARIS: XAVER VARNUS PLAYS FRANCK ON THE GREAT CAVAILLE-COLL ORGAN 1/2

[mrstevecbournias]

The critics are self-appointed and NOBODY cares what they say or think. They are all talk and NO ACTION. If you can't demo what you think is wrong here; if you can'y post a vid of the RIGHT way, then buzz off cuz nobody cares....

[KariR52]

gyönyörű zenemű. gyönyörű előadásban szívmelengető, léleknyugtató

[douglascorr1]

hmm.. a bit slow...

[markb61]

To all you snoots out there who are so overly critical - the rubato this, the tempo that, oh too fast...oh too slow....Franck would have wanted....BLAH, BLAH, BLAH - you are stuck...let go and listen - YES! "Voices from heaven" and "God's presence in my spirit." Now that's uplifting. Xaver - give us more!!!

[titusbeertsen]

@markb61 Actually, I do like people discussing the music, because that's what counts here right, the music? It's more important to share with other people your thoughts about the performance (if it's well argumented of course) than it is to link this beautiful music with a god, because it excludes a part of the listeneres who do not believe in a god but do enjoy the music.

[accousticdecay]

I feel no need to be critical of this man's performance. I just listen, love the music, and enjoy God's presence in my spirit.

[GeorgiosZaimis]

@accousticdecay Couldn't agree more...

[FromHolbergsTime]

voices as if from heaven

a dialogue amongst the spheres

**********

Glenn

[peteacher52]

To the 5 dislikes - arrange with Mme Sophie-Veronique Chaplon to ascend the organ loft yourself and teach us exactly how Franck himself would have, not might have, played it; The same ludicrous quasi-erudite criticisms have been leveled against Jean Demessieux's landmark 1959 recordings of Franck at the Madeleine. Music would lose all interest if musicians interpreted each piece the same way. Top marks to Xaver Varnus for his consummate musicianship - the discerning audience as shown, was rapt.

[mwk12kev]

I wouldn't say it's the rubato that bothers me but the total stop of forward, lyric motion between phrases which he does constantly.

[posaune16]

A very sensitive interpretation of Franck... the rubato is obviously too much for those who prefer to live and die by metronome markings - but for those of us who see music as an emotional experience, this was lovely.

I would like to point out (for perhaps the hundredth time) that most of the rabid nay-sayers who claim to be shining authorities on the subject of organ music never seem to back up these claims with videos of their own superior performances. For shame.

[peteacher52]

@posaune16 Excellent comment - I think I have said much the same thing in different words. Armchair critics usually make me reach for the vomit bowl. Cheers.

[titusbeertsen]

@posaune16 Why do I read this bogus argument all over the classical youtube videos? 'if you cannot perform this piece equally well, you may not criticise the performance here'. That's like saying Roger Ebert's opinion isn't valid because he doesn't make movies himself.

[KCOtutti1]

If you start of with this much rubato, there's nothing left for later on. Makes me a little seasick, actually...

[Jamil501]

Rubato? I think much of Franck calls for that very thing. Too many organists today believe speed and technique is everything. Feeling the music - the muse - is what is most important.

[orosz022]

egy magyar aki ott lehetett...és játszahatott

[gerardbedecarter]

I heard this played at Ste Clothilde in May 1980. It was played during evening Mass and segmented. The very same sounds that Cesar Franck heard.

I don't think there is too much rubato in this performance at St Sulpice. All the evidence from ear witnesses as recounted is that Franck played his own works "very freely". It may not always be in accordance with modern taste, though. I didn't get to hear St Sulpice in the "flesh" but I did hear La Trinite, Name and La Madeleine.

[gerardbedecarter]

@gerardbedecarter oops "Notre Dame" [some of the letters seem to have crept out!]

[4dorgan]

Superb version. Great musicianship (IMHO!)... Played with real feeling & passion.

[3NUNS]

for an oh so exquisite perfomance of the pianoforte transcription of this composition draughht in to the Youtube search engine César Franck: Organ Prelude, Fugue and Variation, Op. 18 (Part 2). The rubato demonstrated is rubato indeed.

[3NUNS]

What is the difference between JSC1401 and 1401JSC ?

[JSC1401]

Dunno.

How did that happen? It's me all right.

[3NUNS]

Actually I prefer the Guillot version. Not being a frankophile, I cannot necessarily spell his name correct. But teh audience shots seem to show someone that looks like him if not him !

[3NUNS]

the lady with this guy is another Youtube performer

[JSC1401]

And from the look of her feels this piece very differently!

Her attitude is alternately swaying with the movement and then waiting for him to get on with it.

Rubato is about "robbing" time, but I always felt that you had to pay it back somewhiere. :)

[3NUNS]

@JSC1401 Nay. She sways to the rhythm!

[JSC1401]

Would prefer the Girl from Ipanema lol.

[3NUNS]

@JSC1401 : This lady is the performer's teacher I assume. Note thee guys exaggerated performance behaviour!

[DBattag1948]

She's just a page turner for gawd sake!

[Totennebel]

organman52,

you sound quite upset.

[datidy22]

I am an organist, and this is the finest performance of this Prelude I have ever heard. Without rubato and prhasing and a deep comittment to one's own realization, the piece falls on its face. This is what a great singer would do. Other organists would do very well to take as their inspiration, the human voice, and make music instead of relying on the medium or musicoligist's dicates. Bravo in excelsis!

[DSM1G90]

..with Madam Sophie-Veronique Cauchefer-Choplin, Organiste Titulaire adjointe, being his page turner...Why do we need critics on here when this performance of the Franck is so wonderful to see and hear...? Agree, play from the heart....

[christianvs1]

YES!!!! This is a performance of Franck par excellence!!! The amazing emotion-filled phrases, the brooding melacholy, the deep silences of the motifs of the prelude which flow into the variations through the fugue - ALL fabulously executed. A performance full of human passion and emotion. Bravissimo!!!

[organman52]

Oh please - it's distorted in places beyond recognition.

[kviky0]

He looks very sad and restless but is still amazingly talented and handsome!

[kviky0]

ITS A FIVE MANUAL ORGAN , SO AWESOME!!

[filouusa]

so french !

[Guilloufan]

it must be marvellous to live here

[Guilloufan]

un genie

[Organiste06]

I think there is too much of rubato.

[codeman2008]

Definitely WAY too much rubato!

[GJmusique]

@codeman2008 I'd rather have loads of rubato in stead of this strict 9/8 meter performance which is beyond all ridiculousness...

[pordzio]

@codeman2008 i think it's St. Sulpice's accoustics. Seeing as he palys i think the notes are nicely detached.

[codeman2008]

@pordzio It's definitely not the acoustics. I didn't say too much LEGato, I said too much RUBato. That has nothing to do with notes being detached or the acoustics, it has to do with either playing what the composer wrote sensibly, or indulging and putting far too much of ones self into the piece, changing it's overall character and effectiveness.

[pordzio]

@codeman2008 You're right. My mistake. Nevertheless this performance isn't that bad as, for example, mine ;p

[gerardbedecarter]

@codeman2008 .... Cesar Franck's organ works must be played very freely. Jean Langlais told me this and he studied with Franck's last pupil Charles Tournemire.

[codeman2008]

@gerardbedecarter Franck's works should be played freely, I agree, but this is just too freely for me. There's a thin line between tasteful rubato (which much of Franck calls for) and just going over board... I think this is going over board. I think the piece loses a lot of character in this performance.

[gerardbedecarter]

@codeman2008 

[jockboy69]

@codeman2008 I agree. He's a good musician. But play this music as it comes off the page, and then, if you HAVE to, tinker with it, but not much! In a room as gargantuan as this, you shouldn't have to play with the rhythm. Just play the notes. The beautiful organ and music will do the work FOR you!

[c64zimox]

soffering notes

i like this interpretation

[GJmusique]

I think if phrasing/articulation is not good, it gets emphasized in a large reverberating room.

It's just like talking. If you can't read a bedtimestory properly, a niche speech in a concert hall w/ reverb will sound horrible. Get my drift?

As for the tempo marking - my mistake, you are right. Still I think this particular piece shouldn't be played as fast as Mr. Varnus plays it. Regarding this piece, imho, the more the tempo is increased the harder it gets to get the message across.

[organman52]

Doesn't articulation and phrasing have a lot to do with acoustics/reverberation? I always thought it did.

According to a very reliable source, Andantino did in fact mean slower than Andante before Beethoven. After that, the meaning changed - faster than Andante. It makes sense acutally - 'ino' and 'etto' are both diminutives, thus lessening the effect of the original word. Less Andante is faster. Less Allegro is slower. Less Largo is faster, etc.

The source is Robert Levin - musicologist.

[Rankett16]

I agree. This piece can be, and usually is, unbearably dull, but this performance made me sit up and listen closely. More power to him!

[1401JSC]

Tempo

- often depends on the building's acoustics

- andantino 1/8 note or andantino dotted 1/4 note?

If phrasing is given by the composer, should one always abide by it?

At 2'38 the left hand is phrased in twos, at 2'57 we hear detatched "cuckoos". This is how it's printed too, but the music is the same on the two occasions. Printer's (and organist's) error?

[organman52]

9/8 is a triple meter - the metric unit is the dotted quarter note. Triple subdivisions [eighth notes] are the norm throughout. Thus, the tempo marking applies to the dotted quarter.

[1401JSC]

What academic twaddle.

When Mozart writes an Aria in 2/4 time, the conductor may beat in two or in four!

When Bach writes in Alla Breve, we often feel 4 in the bar rather than two. If the composer does not make precisions, it is for the performer to ask himself questions and make choices.

Daniel Roth is not the performer in this clip!

Although I do not make the same choices as Xaver Varus, I at least try to understand the reasons which lead him to make his.

[organman52]

I stand corrected about the performer, but the performance nonetheless is awful. You call it 'academic twaddle'. You are so wrong. I call it adherence to the composer's markings. But you probably wouldn't know anything about that, nor the deeper significance of those markings. As far as your 'reasons' are concerned - they are nothing more than personal tampering with a masterpiece. Go ahead - have a good time.

[1401JSC]

Neither Beethiven nor Scumann's metronome were accurate. They have been timed against modern atomic clocks.

It is therefore obvious that their MM do not reveal their real intentions.

But perhaps you don't think that these two are "master composers" whatever that means.

Do you have a film of Mozart directing the K537 concerto?

Friederich Gulda, for one clearly thinks it's to be beaten in 4! Such a minor master, Gulda. So ignorant!

Do you really think that arrogant aggressivity is convincing?

[1401JSC]

Some poeple walk in darkness all their lives without ever having seen the great light.

[organman52]

There you go again - talking about your pathetic self.

[3NUNS]

@1401JSC : Very biblical !

[organman52]

Yes - the conductor MAY beat 2/4 in four - but that is completely wrong. What gives you the idea [or the right] to state to the contrary. You are blatantly questioning the marking of the composer, thus, nothing you say would be convincing. I suppose the Larghetto of K. 537 should be 'beaten' in 4? or the March of the Priests from the Magic Flute in 4 as well? Nothing could be more ridiculous. You can take all your 'interpretive' crap and shove it.

[64ftContraBombarde]

I couldn't agree with you more, especially the academic twaddle! Scholars are always on about playing everything 'black and white', 'by the book' and in my opinion, boringly...

Play how you feel fit, and always play from the heart.

[organman52]

Tempo does not 'depend' on the building's acoustics, but it is often 'adjusted' due to reverberation. I believe - as most do not believe - that every master composer had a specific idea as to the tempo of each of their creations. Tempo is not an arbitrary matter.

The gaping pauses are simply terrible. There is a reason this is a 'prelude' - sameness of texture, steadiness of tempo, natural momentum. Mr. Roth acknowledges none of this.

[1401JSC]

Nonsense!

Rachmaninov interprets his own prelude in G minor for Decca in 4'03 and for RCA Victor in, 4'33 as yu can hear on Youtube posts.

Other factors than acoustical considerations:

- age of the performer

- personal feelings (stress, love, anger...)

- time limits for recording

Since Beethoven, composers who want to give an indication (this is not absolute) for a tempo give metronome marks. This is not the case with César Franck, later Wagner and other "master composers".

[organman52]

I'm not interested in all of your 'information'. I am only interested in what is on the page, given by the master composers themselves. I am in the process of writing reviews for a national magazine in which the performer literally plays HALF as fast as the metrenome marking indicated in the music [Langlais], yet it is extremely effective and convincing. I suppose you are able to tell me whether metrenome markings are authentic or not. After all, you appear to be an authority on everything.

[organman52]

You reveal your utter ignorance here. Don't you think the master composers had an EXACT intention in mind regarding tempo? If you don't, then I have nothing else to say to you, let alone listen to anything you have to say. In fact, get lost. I am simply not interested in the likes of you.

[GJmusique]

It's like he's introducing a severe amount of rubato all of a sudden. Bit out of place indeed. I think his overall phrasing is rather poor. And he is playing the succeeding parts (Fugue and Variation) too fast.

[organman52]

Not to mention the tempo - Franck marked it 'Andantino' in 9/8 meter. This sounds like a dirge. A lot of performers play pieces in the minor mode too slowly, thinking the somberness of the minor mode has something to do with tempo.

[paulsausten]

This is a beautiful and heart-felt performance of one of Franck's most glorious works. The organ at St Sulpice is much larger than the one at St Clothilde in Paris that Franck presided over, but it has the same builder, the brilliant Aristide Cavaillé-Coll and the same colour palette and is perfect for this music. I enjoyed this performance enormously

[Brandotuomikoski]

because it is beautiful and the organ is very quiet with the regestration.

[joeyboi87]

this is such a beautiful piece, its surprisingly easy too

[rjijmker]

Basicly the first part is not so difficult.

Try playing it, the way Franck meant, with Swell and everything else. Then it's nog that easy anymore.

[joeyboi87]

I dont think that its using the swell would make it any harder, besides the swell is vital in this piece, good luck to any organist that trys playing it without the swell

[csabarost]

Szerintem ez jó... és ismesz is

[Reesman95]

Really sends chills down your spine.

[fapakka]

Egy kérdésem lenne hozzád. Véletlenül nem tudod, hogy honnan lehetne megszerezni ezt: Klinda István: Orgonarequiem - in hungarorum revolutionis (Orgonagyászmise az 1956-os Magyar Forradalom emlékére). Csak mert még 23-án volt ez nálunk Pannonhalmán Almássy koncertjén, és még egyszer meg szeretném hallgatni, csak nem találom sehol sem. Megköszönném a segítséged.

[fapakka]

Nem fabadka, hanem fapakka, de nem gond. Addig én se ismertem Franckot, amíg nem kezdtem el tanulni tőle darabokat, pedig sokat hallgattam már orgonát. Szerintem Boellmann, és Buxtehude ismertebbek Francknál a laikus közönségnél, mert a darbjaikat gyakrabban játszák.

[ThierryEscaich]

fabadka kedves! látom Te is sokfelé megfordulsz, de azér tremélem jobb előadásokba is bele-bele hallgatsz!:)

Nos ha valaki nem hallott Franckról az tényleg furi, mert szerintem nála csak Bach volt híresebb orgonista. valóban kicsit lekezelően sikerült fogalmaznom(amiért akár elnézést is kérhetek a hozzászólótól:elnézést!) de ettől méga véleményem maximáklisan fenttartom.(arról nem beszélve hogy sajnos ez a valóság is...)

[fapakka]

Látom, mindenhol csak ócsárolni, és leszólni tudsz mindent... Franck tényleg nem túl ismert zeneszerző, és nem mindenki van othon a komponisták világában, annak ellenére, hogy szereti az orgonaszót...

[ThierryEscaich]

Jaffar Aleksandersson hozzászólása(kérdése) jól jellemzi xavérka átlagközönségét...

[zsebi66]

És a metró átlagközönsége milyen ? Hát a hetes buszé ? Mert ezek a koncertek legalább teli vannak hasonlóan a hetes buszhoz.

[stefanopiovani]

Szép Franck muzsika...

[JaffarAleksandersson]

Who's Franck? Is this the composer?

I've never heard of him.

This is truly beautiful, touching and deep composition. And well performed too!

Organ is no doubt the most complicated musical instrument ever created and its sound reaches very very deep.

[acchos]

the organ is the most versitile, and largest musical instrument ever invented, i doubt it will ever be surpassed. People underestimate it.

[joeyboi87]

Hey just a bit of info...the composer of this piece is indeed Cesar Franck and the piece is his Prelude and Fugue on a theme of variations in B Minor

[jmeister321684]

Jaffar, César Franck is one of the two main pillars of the French Symphonic, meaning expressive and free, organ, with Carles-Marie Widor. (You actually need two to hold something so considerable in fact, like the organ of St-Sulpice let's say!) The first one threw a new bold, genial and personal new language for the organ, while the second gave the instrument the veritable first chance to get closer to people in a serious yet simple but inspired way. JW

[3NUNS]

Very intelligent observation. Or was it to get closer to Catholicism?

[jmeister321684]

3NUNS, (thanks for your reply, 2 years later by the way !!) in fact yes maybe to get to a changing Catholicism, both spiritually and religiously, but in a more pleasant and free-thinking way as well.

[3NUNS]

I am very slow with my correspondence.