This is SO ridiculous.... Take that from a big Nirvana and Kurt Cobain fan. Think of how Frances Bean Cobain will feel when she would see this video.. Just sad and ridiculous... And what does it matter if he's murdered or just died in an overdose? He won't come back, accept that!
@Aquaseafoamshame01 Wtf? Of course people accept the fact that Kurt's not coming back. How insulting can you be? Do you think people are idiots? You must not be much of a fan if you don't think it matters if he's been murdered.
@GoddessFourWinds Well, take a look at my channel then... Or my second channel 'Nevermindip'. It's pretty much dedicated to them... I got all their CD's, boxsets, a lot of their bootlegs, With The Lights Out, Outcesticide CD's, a lot of biographies like Heavier Than Heaven, Cobain Unseen, BUT ALSO:' Love And Death: The Murder Of Kurt Cobain' and 'Who Killed Kurt Cobain?' I know the facts of the case... But you have to admit that after 10 pages of discussion, you won't find an answer...
@Aquaseafoamshame01 And why is that? The facts speak for themselves. A crime has been committed. Are you denying that? Are you denying Courtney Love's involvement? Since you know all the facts...
"You don't mix alcohol and heroin or you'll die. It cuts down on respiratory twice as much, there's no way you're going to survive that. Everyone I know who's O.D.'d has gotten drunk. And it's been late at night, too." - Kurt Cobain. If he knew that about heroin, then I'm sure he knew what mixing a powerful sedative like Rohypnol w/ alcohol would do. His "explanation" is an obvious excuse.
@TestMeatDollSteak Kurt DIDN'T mix drugs and alcohol. He had no NEED to. He wasn't even suicidal at the time. Everyone, except CL, including his best friend, said so. Courtney tried to poison him with the Rohypnol and Kurt tried to cover up the whole incident by saying HE took too many pills with booze. You can tell by when CL called for help when she woke up and found Kurt unresponsive. She wanted to wait until she thought he was dead.
@GoddessFourWinds Kurt told Dave he mixed the drugs and the alcohol. Nobody THOUGHT he was suicidal at the time. How is a suicidal person "supposed" to act? Do they go around telling everyone "Hey, I'm suicidal"? Or do they intentionally down a powerful sedative and mix it with alcohol, when by their own statements they know better than to do that kind of thing? If Love really wanted to Kurt to die, why later insist that he enter rehab?
@GoddessFourWinds No, I simply must LOL at your assertion that Kurt would cover up a murder attempt on him by his wife. I patently reject the notion that Kurt Cobain was some hen-pecked, spineless pussy that would stay in a relationship with a woman who he thought had attempted to kill him. At every step of the way, Kurt Cobain did what HE wanted to do. People who knew him in life have attested to how willful he was. Kurt admitted he took the pills, he lied about it being an "accident".
@TestMeatDollSteak While he may have taken some purposely, I honestly don't know if he did or not. I believe he said what he did to cover up the whole incident because he didn't know what happened for sure, and he wasn't going to make false claims without knowing the facts because he wasn't like that. I also believe CL wanted to make sure he died before he recovered his full memory. Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said any of those things, tyvm.
@GoddessFourWinds Well, you can believe whatever you want to believe. I simply see you trying to conform the fact that Grohl says Kurt admitted to him that he took the pills and drank the champagne to the "murder scenario". What makes sense to me is that if Kurt "wasn't sure", or "didn't know" what had happened to him, he would have told Dave he didn't know, instead of taking responsibility for it, and claiming it was "an accident". IMHO, Kurt knew exactly what he was doing, he wasn't dumb.
@TestMeatDollSteak Dave and Kurt were very close. Dave was deeply hurt by what happened and Kurt wanted to downplay it. Make Dave not worry about it. So he chose to say what he did. I don't fault him for that. He made less a big deal of it than CL who out right lied by saying Kurt took dozens of pills. (And she threatened his life again by wanting to have him moved to another hospital against doctor's orders when he was still gravely ill.)
@GoddessFourWinds Dave says the band really weren't as close as it sounds like you think they were. I think that the 2 had a genuine respect for eachother's talents and liked each other as people, but Dave had told Azerrad that "We do depend on eachother for certain things, but for the most part, we're really removed from eachother - far removed. As close as we may seem sometimes, it's not like bosom buddies...we're friends but we're not best friends or even great friends."
@TestMeatDollSteak That was more towards the end...after CL began to drive a wedge between them. I've heard Dave talk about Kurt many times. You can tell how much he cared about him as a person.
@GoddessFourWinds "That was more towards the end..." - That interview was conducted w/ Dave in early 1993. I *love* how everything becomes Courtney's fault. If anything, Kurt and Courtney segregated themselves from the rest of their friends and family when they started shooting dope together. Dope was the real "wedge" between the Cobains and everyone else. When everyone began blaming Courtney for everything, Kurt stood up for her and defended her. I never said Dave & Kurt didn't like each other.
@GoddessFourWinds I do think that Kurt wanted to downplay it, we agree on that. But his attempt to downplay it was his telling Dave that it was "a mistake", instead of the obvious suicide attempt that it was, IMHO.
@TestMeatDollSteak Again, there was no reason for Kurt to commit suicide. He loved his daughter and would not have wanted to cause her pain. He was so afflicted by his parents' divorce, there's no way he would have hurt his daughter by killing himself. She was his life.
@GoddessFourWinds "There was no reason for Kurt to commit suicide" - That's what a lot of people think, from the outside looking in. A lot of people also don't understand how someone who worked so hard to be in a popular band and make it on a major record label could have been so contradictorily and utterly unhappy with his position as a world famous rock star. I think that Kurt Cobain was a very conflicted man, and that the drugs combined with his personal drama led to his unfortunate decision.
@TestMeatDollSteak I don't believe he was "contradictorily and utterly unhappy with his position as a world famous rockstar." It was his dream since childhood. He was a perfectionist. He practiced constantly. He knew the ins and outs of everything and fretted over the business, especially the creative end of it. He adored his daughter. Everyone knows that. And end of a marriage isn't the end of the world, especially one that had been on rocky ground for so long.
@GoddessFourWinds I'm actually agreeing with you that the vast majority of everything Cobain did with Nirvana was in the interest of becoming popular and famous. "Playing the game" at Sub Pop, signing to a major label, the TV appearances, world tours, etc. But, once he was there and in the position, he had conflicting feelings about it. He worked hard to get there, & he played music from genuine passion/inspiration, but hated the press's invasion of privacy, and fans fawning over him. Conflicted
And also, if Kurt didn't remember what had happened to him, then when he spoke to Dave on the phone about it, you'd think he'd just tell him something like "Man, I don't know WHAT the fuck happened, I don't remember a thing", or something to that effect. But he didn't. He told Dave he'd "made a mistake, was drinking champagne and taking pills", and apologized to him. Totally consistent with Kurt's being embarrassed by the whole thing and making excuses to Dave to cover for it, IMHO.
@TestMeatDollSteak I suppose you've never heard of an accidental overdose? I believe at the time, he had no idea what had happened and just assumed he'd taken too much. I mean, it obviously landed him in the hospital. Is it consistent with a suicide attempt? To tell your spouse you want a divorce, fill your pockets with money and then attempt suicide? Riiiight. Not. And CL said she awoke at 4-4:30 to find Kurt unconscious but didn't call for help til 6:30? Yeah.
@GoddessFourWinds So...now you think he simply accidentally overdosed? I thought that you thought it was a murder attempt? Regardless, Dave says that Kurt self admitted to him that he took the pills and drank the champagne...Kurt wasn't some moron. He knew what that combination of sedatives and alcohol would do to his respiratory system.
@TestMeatDollSteak I was using that as HIS explanation of what happened...that he must have accidentally overdosed...before he could remember everything. And you're ignoring the other events that surround the case...including Cl's nicely applied makeup for the informed paparazzi that met her at the hospital... She looks damn good for a woman who woke up and OH YEAH WAITED to call for someone to SAVE HER OVERDOSED husband. Uh huh.
@GoddessFourWinds And, oh yeah, Courtney's make up...only someone as obsessed with the media and her own career as Courtney Love would stop to think that her husband's O.D. would probably result in a photo op'. She's a self-obsessed fame-whore, I've never argued that, but that hardly makes her a murderer. Especially when the guy you're accusing her of attempting to murder admitted that he took the pills and drank the champagne himself. Where is the proof of murder? It's all just "suspicions"...
@GoddessFourWinds How are you so certain he said "I'm going to divorce you"? Were you there? We don't have the Rome Note, just Courtney's accounts of it being "a diatribe" against her, and witnesses claiming they heard the couple arguing. If Kurt were so intent on divorcing her, he would have signed and filed the papers. And this is all excluding Grohl's account of Kurt admitting to him that he took the pills and drank the champagne. Kurt knew what that would do to him.
@TestMeatDollSteak Because CL told Tom Grant that Kurt told her he was leaving her. And they'd both called Rosemary Carroll..CL seeking the "meanest, most vicious lawyer she could find." It's why CL reported Kurt had filled his pockets with money...so he could leave. There was a prenup. It would have given CL what she'd had going into the marriage and Hole. Which was worth WAY less than NIRVANA. And whatever she'd get for maybe child support and alimony. Certainly not what she got with suicide.
@GoddessFourWinds Ugh...I've heard all this before, and if the tape of Love you're referring to is the one on this very upload, then all Love admits to Grant is that there was talk of a separation, but that she didn't think they'd have to divorce this year because Kurt was supposed to do Lollapalooza for 4 months and Hole was supposed to tour for 9 months. It's clear that there was a POSSIBILITY, but nothing was set in stone. Neither party ever signed or filed any papers, that I'm aware.
@TestMeatDollSteak Kurt had already turned down the Lolapalloza gig. It's part of the reason CL was furious with him. She believed he was turning down $9 million. She even offered to do it for him. There are recorded interviews of her saying that, too. She often forgets what she says and contradicts what she says when she doesn't know she's being recorded. She's such a liar. You do know it's illegal for these interviews to be shared, don't you?
@GoddessFourWinds Love had insisted that they sign the prenup in the 1st place. My humble opinion is that IF the couple had actually decided to follow through with divorce, Love would have simply been a gigantic cunt and done her very best to fuck Kurt out of everything she could, including Frances. And she no doubt would have simply started banging some other rock star to keep in the limelight, which is what she did after he died anyways. She's a cunt, but that doesn't = murderer.
@TestMeatDollSteak IF there would have been a divorce, it would have been preempted by the prenup. She was arrogant enough to believe Hole would have been bigger than NIRVANA so she's have lost out on NIRVANA's earnings. Kurt would have fought her for custody.l Win or lose, there'd have been a huge battle over that.. In the end, Kurt was worth way more dead than alive=motive.
@GoddessFourWinds Showing a possible motive does not prove that a murder occurred. I'd say it's just as likely that Kurt was despondent over the possibility of a divorce scenario, along with his unhappiness in the limelight and his addiction to heroin, all culminating in his attempt on his own life @ Rome, and his final decision to jump the wall at Exodus, fly to Seattle, and ultimately shoot himself.
@TestMeatDollSteak Means, motive and opportunity are all important in murder cases. You're claiming Kurt murdered himself and showing those things. I'm saying CL (and others) are responsible and showing those things. I don't believe Kurt was depressed. If he was so depressed, why purchase a shotgun and then go to rehab? Why not then go home and kill yourself? None of that makes sense. Like you said, he wasn't stupid.
@GoddessFourWinds If he really WANTED to get off drugs, why jump the wall at the rehab facility and go AWOL in Seattle? This all boils down to your own individual interpretation of the events and facts surrounding his case. I'm saying that suicide makes more sense, and this is all excluding the fact that the note was confirmed to be 100% Cobain's writing, and that the gun positioning on the body and coroner's diagnosis of instantaneous rigor were shown to be consistent w/ suicide.
@TestMeatDollSteak So you want to take the work of the "professionals" of the SPD...including Dr. H. who acted unethically and illegally by discussing the contents of the autopsy report but NOT those of the pros of Exodus who so no signs of recent drug use and no signs of depression with suicidal tendencies? That's cherry picking, for sure. Who said he really wanted to get off drugs? We're talking about murder? Who. What. Why. Why. How.
@GoddessFourWinds Lol..what would you have suggested Hartshorne have done? Cobain's blood morphine level was illegally leaked, and journalists were up his and the SPD's ass for answers. He never confirmed nor denied the 1.52mg/L figure, he offered his assessments that led to his verdict of suicide. And why would Exodus admit a patient who showed no signs of recent use or withdrawal? They wouldn't, is the short answer, anymore than any other hospital admits a patient w/ no symptoms.
@GoddessFourWinds I don't necessarily think that Kurt was 100% certain of what he was going to do or how and when he was going to do it...if anything, I'd say the evidence shows that he was probably largely conflicted and experiencing a lot of inner turmoil. Ultimately, though, Kurt did what Kurt wanted to do. The fact that he had Dylan buy the gun for him after his other weapons were taken from him, and that he fled Exodus AND stayed on dope all attest to Kurt doing what HE wanted to do.
@TestMeatDollSteak Right. He wanted the gun for home protection because he had NONE and believed his life was in danger. And he bought a particular kind of gun to be set up a particular way so innocent bystanders would not be harmed, Then he leaves rehab, after showing he has no reason to be there. (Then his credit card is cancelled and turns up missing and continues to be used). But he buys airlines tickets for TWO,. (And his car has 4 flats.) Yeah. All acts of someone suicidal and way normal.
@GoddessFourWinds I don't think Cobain was certain of what he was going to do. If he were, then he would have shot himself before he even went to Exodus, or even when he first got back to Seattle after fleeing Exodus. Oh, and credit card transactions don't post the same day that the attempt was made, obviously. It can take a day or even a few days to post, and there aren't records of where or when the actual attempts were placed, so there isn't proof it was used after he died.
@GoddessFourWinds I'd say that intentionally mixing rohypnol with champagne when you know what the end result will be, quitting your successful career/band, canceling your engagement for new career opportunity, and refusing help to get off drugs by fleeing a rehab facility when you know you have a small child to care for all speak of someone having major difficulties dealing with pressure and a desire to run from his problems...
@TestMeatDollSteak I'm getting confused by all the comments. I'm taking this to PMs. Hope you don't mind. There are many I want to address so I hope you understand if I miss some. I'll address this one and ask,
@GoddessFourWinds I agree. PM's will make the conversation easier to follow for both of us, and we won't be hindered by the character limits, so it's a win/win :)
Rome, to me, is totally consistent w/ a suicide attempt. There's passages in Come As You Are of Kurt talking about how most people who accidentally O.D. on dope do it because they were drinking as well. Kurt knew the "double whammy" effect of alcohol and sedatives on the respiratory system. The fact that he wasn't a drinker, but was downing champagne and roofies, shows he knew what he was doing to himself, based on his own statements about mixing substances.
And I really feel the need to say that his suicide note speaks to quite a lot more than simply "the business end" of things. Cobain isn't talking about retiring from the biz, IMHO, he's talking about a loss of joy and passion in things that used to bring him joy. That's a common factor in people who are depressed and suicidal. It's wasn't just performing or the spotlight, it was writing, creating and listening to music as well. And all the unnecessary guilt he expresses...it's sad.
@TestMeatDollSteak "...the embracement of your community.." To whom is this addressing? Right. The entire letter, except for the end, is to the punk crowd. The end tells Courtney to keep performing. The very end, of course, is the added part that is very suspect. I don't think it's sad. Kurt had other plans. To do some solo work and collaborative works. As well as go fishing with his grandpa and purchase a truck. Ah, the plans of a suicidal NEW father who adored his baby...uh huh.
@GoddessFourWinds I've never disagreed on the fact that he's addressing his fans. In fact, I said I always thought it was odd. He called and canceled his plans with Stipe before he went to intervention. If he were so stoked to be working on new projects, why cancel? The end tells Courtney to "please keep going, for Frances"...the two had talked of a suicide pact before shortly after Frances was born... I've always thought he's telling her not to kill herself as well, clearly.
@TestMeatDollSteak No. Courtney made up the suicide pact ideas. Both the ones around Frances's birth and the one around the times of Kurt's death. She even lied about planting stories in the media regarding that. And it worked. YOU believe her.
@GoddessFourWinds No. Kurt himself talks about the suicide pact in Come As You Are, Azerrad's bio of the band. The Vanity Fair article had come out, and Frances was being taken away. Kurt says they took out his hand gun and considered taking their own lives. "It was just so humiliating and it felt like so many powerful people were out to get us that it just seemed hopeless. It didn't seem like we'd ever win, it was amazing. We were totally suicidal." That's from Kurt Cobain.
@TestMeatDollSteak Kurt was furious about the article, and even made threatening phone calls about it. People say lots of things. I've been so angry with people I've said I've felt like gouging out their eyes...and mine. Does that mean I've stood with scissors in my hands ready to do that? Of course not. When I've said I've felt like strangling someone, have I wrapped rope around their necks? Hell, no. God. Think about what you're saying. Do you want to take everything literally?
@GoddessFourWinds The quote is directly from Kurt's mouth, Azerrad had everything on tape, so it's not what I'M saying. They didn't kill themselves that day, obviously. Since Kurt himself talked about taking his gun out and about how suicidal they were, I'd say it's fair to say that the couple had considered killing themselves. He's not talking about his threats to kill Lynn Herschberg here. He says they were suicidal at the time, but they didn't do it.
@TestMeatDollSteak Again, people say lots of things. You may say you feel like you want to kill someone who's wronged you, and you may even take out a gun. That doesn't mean you're going to shoot them. Have you never been so angry at someone you've just wanted to beat the skin off of them? You may have even stood so close to them with your fists clenched that you could smell their breath. But you didn't even touch them. Courtney once wrote she wanted to marry a rockstar and kill him. Annnnd...?
@GoddessFourWinds I offered the quote to show you that Courtney Love is not the only person who talked about their having a suicide pact. Kurt also said it. Whether or not they actually intended to do it, I don't know.
@TestMeatDollSteak By the way, quote your source for your story about Dave. I've never heard that. At all. As far as I know, Kurt didn't take pills. Or drink champagne. (And there were no narcotics in his system...big heroin user that he was supposed to be.) Rome has always been a problem, for me, and totally appears to be an attempt on Kurt's life, so please show me this interview.
The so called pact I'd heard about was one that was supposed to have been made right after Frannie was born...
@GoddessFourWinds Here's the link to the video where Dave discusses talking to Kurt on the phone after Rome (it's a fascinating interview altogether). The part pertaining to Rome is at about 5:30. /watch?v=hwYqYTNHsnk
Kurt says he often avoided heroin while in Europe, he didn't want to get caught going through customs w/ it, & H only stays in the system for 3 days anyway, so that's all that blood test would be able to speak for. And yes, Kurt was talking about right after Frances was born.
If Love added the last 4 lines to make it look like a suicide note, then what is your theory on how the note found its way into the hands of the murderer, considering Cobain had fled Exodus and flown to Seattle sporadically without telling anyone? Was the note already in Seattle in the hands of one of his "friends" paid by Love, just by luck (or lack of luck, in Kurt's case)?
@TestMeatDollSteak I never said Courtney paid anyone. Did the person who murdered Kurt put the note in the room? I don't know. Was Courtney in L.A. the entire time between the time she reported Kurt missing and the day his body was found? I don't know? Did someone visit her in L.A. and then return to Lake Washington during that same time? I don't know. There are many ways that could have played out.
@GoddessFourWinds You'd think that if there were any records of Love having left LA to go to Seattle, or of anyone else having met her and then flown up there, someone like Grant would've been all over that like flies on dog shit. It's because of this kind of conjecturing, absent evidence of any kind, that I reject the belief in the murder theory. Besides, the handwritten note was proved to be 100% Cobain's writing, & I've already given a very plausible explanation for "suspicious" looking lines
...it all just seems like there's a lot more kinds of emotions and subject matter being discussed than just the business end of things, or retiring from his band. The whole thing is written in such a rambling, stream of consciousness kind of way, though...I've always thought it was odd that he chose to address the fans more than his family/friends. Guess he was a lot more concerned w/ the fans and being a rock star than he liked to let on in the press. He seemed like a really conflicted guy...
@TestMeatDollSteak I'll talk about this later. I'll just say that the note wasn't a suicide note...that's why it talked about the business. A suicide note would have addressed his friends and family. IMHO, of course.
@GoddessFourWinds "A suicide note would addressed his friends and family" - Well, it DID address his family, at least the 2 people on Earth that he presumably loved more than anyone else - his wife and baby girl. Even in the main body of the note he talks about them. It's not a happy note, to say the least. It's quite sad, and sounds like he was writing from a more emotional state of mind than a logical one, IMHO. The drug addiction I'm sure didn't help him any...it's sad he decided to die...
@TestMeatDollSteak Kurt didn't talk about wanting to end his life after he received treatment for his stomach pain. He never really wanted to commit suicide. He wanted to end his physical pain... It's a common thing for anyone with chronic pain. I'm sure you know that. He even talked about it in interviews. I'm VERY familiar with that kind of talk, as is anyone with chronic pain. Kurt was a wishy washy, moody Pisces. His feelings on paper were reflective of that. No biggie.
@GoddessFourWinds But he DID continue to use heroin after receiving treatment for his stomach pain...that was the main problem, Kurt's major downfall, unfortunately. He either couldn't or didn't want to get off the drugs...I've known a lot of drug addicts, some ex-heroin addicts. They said it was hell; the only time in their lives when they actually saw killing themselves as an option...it's sad Kurt was in that position, and that he made the choice he did. The whole thing is sad.
@TestMeatDollSteak While heroin is the hardest drug to kick, you won't find a heroin addict who says that they'd USE heroin to commit suicide because of the high. They may feel depressed BETWEEN dosings but no one commits suicide WITH heroin. It feels too good.
@GoddessFourWinds I myself have never used heroin, but I know some ex-junkies, and they say that you really get to point in your addiction where you know you're caught in a fucked up cycle of getting sick and spiraling downward whenever you're not high, and even when you're high, you know it isn't going to last. You know the drug fucking owns you. I think it's fair to say, from even his Journals, that Cobain knew he was a cycle like that...it sucks. I'll never do heroin, ever.
@TestMeatDollSteak And by the way, Kurt was not so in love with Courtney, toward the end. He believed she'd been cheating on him. He'd talked to Rosemary Carroll about leaving her and cutting her from his will. That provided Courtney with motive. All of that and his turning down the Lollapalooza tour, which CL believed was worth about $9 million.
@GoddessFourWinds Saying that he was "not so in love with her" is your attempting to read into Kurt's mind a bit more than you could really know. He never told anyone that he wasn't in love with her or anything even close to it, that I've ever heard. It is clear that the couple was having marital problems, though, I won't argue that. I could see money being a motive...she loves the fame and the high life, but if they had separated, I think she would've just found some other star to fuck...
@TestMeatDollSteak A person who is not so in love would speak to his lawyer about wanting to get a divorce and remove his spouse from his will. That seems like a safe assumption.
@GoddessFourWinds A person who is fully committed to the idea of getting a divorce, or removing their spouse from their will, does it. He didn't. Why not file for divorce right then and there, if he was so decidedly no longer in love with his wife? It's clear that there was talk of a divorce or possible separation, even from Love's own mouth, but nothing was set in stone. I'd say it's a fair assumption that Cobain was probably conflicted about what he was going to do...
I agree that the note was definitely rambling, and I actually like your theory that the note was written spur of the moment at IHOP, because that's actually consistent with how Kurt wrote a lot of things: whenever/wherever the inspiration struck him on whatever was handy. But, if he were just happy to be moving on w/out Nirvana, why all the rambling guilt, the "daughter who reminds me too much of myself", being a "miserable death rocker", loving people too much/hating all people in general...
Everything in the police reports are consistent with suicide: the smudged finger prints, no signs of forced entry or struggle, the gun positioning, the gunshot wound itself, the coroner's assessment of cadaveric spasm...all consistent w/ suicide. Not necessarily inconsistent with homicide, though...we're still going in circles. I've even conceded that I'd like to see the evidence get another look, I just doubt it will ever happen...barring a confession I don't see proof of wrong doing by anyone
Cadaveric spasm cannot be faked. Nothing else simulates it. It is generally observed to occur in instances of intense physical struggle and/or intense emotional duress. By even your accounts, there was no struggle. In order for the scenario to fit something you'd expect to see w/ instantaneous rigor, then emotional duress seems most likely. If he were incapacitated, he would be under no duress and you wouldn't expect to observe the condition...
OK, the thing with rigor is, assessments of it are interpreted by the pathologist and are qualitative, not quantitative. The pathologist attempts to manipulate the various joints of the body, generally starting with the jaw and moving downward, and makes a qualitative assessment of the stiffness of the joint. We are really relying on Hartshorne's ability to distinguish instantaneous from regular rigor mortis...
On a strictly logical point, if you think that the murderer would've held Kurt's hand against the gun in a partial effort to "get Kurt's prints on it", then why would said murderer then wipe the prints off of everything, as is the explanation for the lack of identifiable finger prints? You've already conjectured that the murderer wiped the prints from the shell casing, gun, pen and note...why would he do that, if he could've simply worn gloves and pressed Cobain's fingers onto everything?
"This condition is of great medico-legal importance. Occasionally, in case of suicide, the weapon, e.g. pistol or knife is seen firmly grasped in the victim's hand which is a strong presumptive evidence of suicide. Attempts may be made to simulate this condition in order to conceal the murder, but ordinary rigor does not produce the same firm grip of a weapon..." - From Forensic Pathology online, by Dr. Dinesh Rao
@TestMeatDollSteak Yes. I'm not talking about rigor. Even rigor relaxes after a few hours. I'm talking about at the time the trigger was pulled. I don't recall someone's needing to be conscious at the time of death for that to happen. I'm saying someone could have positioned the shotgun with Kurt's hand on the barrel and pulled the trigger, at which time the spasm could have caused Kurt's hand to tighten on the barrel. I've seen many photos of shogun suicides and none have had the (cont...)
@GoddessFourWinds If he were dead or unconscious already, he wouldn't have been squeezing the barrel so tightly. From what I've read and understand, the muscles are simply instantaneously frozen into place at the moment of death. You're saying that his unconscious fist would somehow clamp down at the moment that he's shot. This seems to contradict everything that I've read on the subject.
@TestMeatDollSteak ...part 2 ;) ...there are so many obviously facts, that the story CL told the media 1994 and later are only lies lies lies. & hey, she herself told, that she believes (her best friend at this time ´94&also the "nanny" of Frances), that Cali DeWitt knows much more than he tells her & she thinks, he heard at least the shotgun - whoa! You can hear that all on the many tapes ( telephone calls between CL & Tom Grant ).&there are so many not explainable things what happened. peace
With gun suicides, you always still see the victim holding the barrel of the gun. That's because at the point of death, the hand freezes in place. We literally had to pry that shotgun from Cobain's hand. You could still see the markings in his palm from where he had been gripping it for days. That's a sure sign the wound was self inflicted. That kind of evidence doesn't lie."
@TestMeatDollSteak Hartshorne should not have done that autopsy because he was biased, since he was a friend of both Kurt and Courtney's. While yes, the death grip is a fact, there's no way to know whether Kurt was holding the shotgun or it was put into his hand. For all we know, he was gripping the can of root beer when he died. Don't you find it strange that there were no legible prints on the shotgun. A hand gun, I can understand. But not a shotgun...or the shells...or the pen on the "note."
@GoddessFourWinds "There's no way to know whether Kurt was holding the shotgun..." The police reports also attest to the fact that his left hand was around the barrel of the gun. Maybe they're all lying? If he were gripping the can of Root Beer when he died, and instantaneous rigor had occurred, then it would still have been in his hand when the cops showed up. With all due respect, perhaps you maybe don't understand how the phenomenon occurs, of the force required to break it?
@TestMeatDollSteak The cops botched this investigation. They labeled it a suicide as soon as they walked through the doors, according to their statements. They said the only reason they called Homicide is because of who it was. Kurt didn't receive the kind of investigation that is normal protocol. First they said there was gun residue on Kurt's hand, and then stated later that, that wasn't the case and they had no idea why that was included in the report.
@GoddessFourWinds As far as all the prints go, it's apparently not at all uncommon to not find legible prints on objects, due to sweaty hands, or fingers sliding across a surface as opposed to being firmly and evenly pressed onto them. The cops found prints, just nothing legible. If I had to take a guess, I'd say Kurt could've smudged his prints from the pen when he gripped it with his fist and stabbed it into the note.
@TestMeatDollSteak There is now a way to test the metal ends of shotgun shells for prints. Even after decades BECAUSE of the oils left by people's skin. There should have been prints on the shotgun. Handle one yourself and see if you leave no prints, especially after loading it with 3 shells. You'd have to rub all the prints off. And why wasn't the shotgun tested until a month after Kurt's death...after being put into it's storage case and handled by other people?
@GoddessFourWinds I've heard all these questions before, and to me, they're all just questions. Just reasons to speculate, or perhaps be suspicious that *maybe* he might've been murdered. But where is the "smoking gun" evidence? The shotgun is now gone. The greenhouse he died in is gone. His body is gone. The original handwritten suicide note is gone. What would come of a new investigation? Only his autopsy reports and the crime scene photos remain of the original evidence.
@TestMeatDollSteak The smoking gun is the amount of heroin in Kurt's system. It would have been physically impossible for Kurt to pull the trigger. If someone positioned Kurt's hand on the barrel of the shotgun before pulling the trigger, there you'd get cadaveric spasm. I believe Kurt was nearly pretty much dead when he was killed. Blood circulates through the body 7-8 times per minute, so a massive overdose would have meant there was no struggle.
@GoddessFourWinds "If someone positioned Kurt's hand around the barrel of the shotgun before pulling the trigger, you'd get cadaveric spasm" - Not from what I've read about the phenomenon. I can direct you to a couple forensic pathology websites. The spasm is an instantaneous freezing of the muscles into place at the exact moment of death. If Kurt were already dead/unconscious, he wouldn't be *squeezing* the barrel of the gun. His hand would only be lightly wrapped around the barrel.
@TestMeatDollSteak If he were unconscious, his hand would have spasmed when the trigger was pulled. I don't remember reading that one had to be conscious for that to happen.
@GoddessFourWinds "I don't remember reading that one had to be conscious for that to happen" - Everything that I've read attests to the fact that the phenomenon occurs when someone is under great emotional and/or physical duress. You have to be in the physical, willful act of *squeezing* something at the very moment that you die in order for the object to be held with such a firm grip in the hand. That's why it's so useful in determining what the decedent was doing at the very moment they died.
@TestMeatDollSteak Again, I don't even know that I believe what Hartshorne has to say. Many years after Kurt's death, he talked about someone DRIVING after the kind of dose Kurt had, yet he failed to produce documentation. Since no one's ever been able to show a case like that (and I believe if CL and Team could do that, they'd have it splattered all over the media), I'm guessing it's because there is no case like it.
@GoddessFourWinds Well, I simply don't find a decent reason to believe that Hartshorne would intentionally fabricate having diagnosed the condition in Cobain's hand, thereby knowingly concealing a murder, and ostensibly because why? Because he knew CL on some social level, of booked a few Nirvana gigs back in the day? That just doesn't hold water for me. I could see maybe if he were paid off, but the isn't any evidence of that.
@TestMeatDollSteak I believe he screwed up. Whether it was intentional or not, I don't know. But I also believe he did things to cover his mistakes.
The easiest way to settle this would be to have the photos of the crime scene and the entire autopsy report released. And Courtney just won't let that happen.
@GoddessFourWinds I have yet to see any real proof that Hartshorne screwed up. Or that Janis Parker also screwed up in her assessment of the suicide note. I will agree with you that we can't know for sure without the autopsy report or the crime scene photos. Until that day comes (IF that day comes), I will remain skeptical about the idea that Kurt Cobain was murdered.
@TestMeatDollSteak More than one person looked at the so-called suicide note and gave different opinions. Since Hartshorne later made claims that he did not back up, I believe he could make any claims, since he had no reason to back them up, especially since kids died because they believed Kurt killed himself. (I've met and stopped 2 fans who were considering suicide because Kurt supposedly did it). Reopening a case can take years, but it's not unheard of.
@GoddessFourWinds "More than one person looked at the suicide note and gave different opinions" - Not exactly. Janis Parker is the *only* person to have ever offered an opinion on the actual, handwritten suicide note, & she had the Rome Note to compare it to. All other analysts had only a poor quality photocopy to examine, and as such the results were either inconclusive, or "possibly 2 authors". No analysts has ever shown that CL was the definitive author of the last 4 lines.
@GoddessFourWinds *Zero* forensic analysis of the "practice sheet" were ever preformed, to my knowledge. You'd have to believe that Parker, in addition to Hartshorne and every other cop who investigated Cobain's case, were all completely incompetent and or/or negligent. I'm not willing to make that leap, not without the actual autopsy reports/crime scene photos. I don't know what the note was written on, offhand.
@TestMeatDollSteak I never said Parker was incompetent in any way. I know that she's just one hand writing analyzer. And I don't believe the cops were intentionally negligent. I believe they were setup to believe what they were looking at was a suicide and from initial analysis reached that conclusion, when they should have withheld opinions until a full investigation was completed. That normally takes months. Not hours.
The note was written on the back of an IHOP place mat.
@GoddessFourWinds An IHOP place mat? Really? I had never heard that before. Where did you read that? Maybe Kurt hit an IHOP up for some food in the 3 or so days he was alone in Seattle before he died. As you said, Kurt liked to write on just about anything he could get his hands on. I don't see how it being written on the back of an IHOP place mat really points to murder, do you?
I don't believe it was a suicide note. I believe Kurt was practicing telling people that he was leaving the music industry for awhile. He often wrote letters to people he never sent or intended to send. He could have written that at any time. I believe he wrote it much before the end because in it he's praising Courtney, and we know there were no praises in the latter months.
@GoddessFourWinds Well, that's just Tom Grant's theory. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that the Cobains were having problems, but Tom is really trying to place himself inside the heart and mind of Kurt Cobain, whom he had never even once met, by asserting that there were "no praises for her in the latter months." Tom can't speak with authority on whether or not Kurt still loved Courtney, despite the marital problems.
@TestMeatDollSteak No. The IHOP place mat thing I learned from Tom Grant. The rest is MY theory. I never said Kurt no longer loved Courtney. I do know that, according to Rosemary Carroll, Kurt wanted to divorce CL and remove her from his will. He believed she was cheating on him. Even CL said the note in Rome wasn't very nice towards her.
@TestMeatDollSteak I may be guilty of making inferences from the evidence, but that's what we do. We try to figure out what happened from what we know. It's how circumstantial evidence is used to convict.
@GoddessFourWinds True, we can all only speculate as to what it all means. I try not to do too much speculation on what Kurt may or may not have been thinking or feeling at ANY point in his life, much less those tumultuous final months. Accounts of people who knew him seem to vary, and I never met the guy. I think we will probably never know for sure what he was thinking, whether it was suicide or not.
@TestMeatDollSteak I do believe Rosemary Carroll, even if she's now stuck by the confidentiality agreement CL made all of her employers sign...which Tom Grant did not, of course. :)
@GoddessFourWinds Sure, Rosemary, and Love herself have said that the note was essentially a diatribe against Courtney. When it's all said and done, though, we don't have the actual text of the 3 page note, so we don't know what all was or was not said in it. I don't see how any of this precludes the notion that Kurt might have ultimately decided that he would rather die than go through a divorce, or possibly lose custody of Frances. It's all just speculation, though.
@TestMeatDollSteak Wow. Rather die than go through divorce? I'm sure there are people who think such extreme thoughts, but I've never heard of Kurt being so off the wall. More than anything, Kurt loved Frannie. I just don't know how he'd think his being dead to her would be better than divorce?
@GoddessFourWinds I don't know how he'd think his being dead would be better, either. But he wouldn't be the first parent who loved their kids to kill themselves, I'm sure. I think that suicide is often times an emotional decision, and not necessarily a logical one. Impending divorce/custody battle, the dissolution of his band/career...throw heroin addiction on top of all that. I'm not really pretending to condone nor fully understand his thought processes at this time, just speculating.
Okay. lol If you want me to look at something, I will. My memory can be tricky. I just don't recall anything that I learned about that being inconsistent with murder. :)
@GoddessFourWinds OK. I will PM you a site. The phenomenon isn't necessarily inconsistent with murder. It is inconsistent with the decedent being dead or unconscious when the event occurred. That's why, when they find drowning victims still tightly clutching weeds or grass, they know they were *alive* when they entered the water. I said before, you'd have to believe that Cobain was willfully squeezing the barrel as someone else pulled the trigger, if the phenomenon were correctly diagnosed.
@TestMeatDollSteak Having read that, there is a HUGE problem with Hartshorne's report. Rigor mortis lasts 24 to 48 hours. Considering, officially, Kurt was found 3 days after he was killed, it is not possible that his hand was gripping the shotgun so tightly his fingers had to be pried off.
@GoddessFourWinds Well, I've read that the speed that it onsets, and the time that it takes to release, are dependent upon many factors. I've read that rigor generally takes around 3 days to release, which is right around the time Kurt was found. You'd have to think that Hartshorne was grossly incompetent to make such a blunder.
@GoddessFourWinds Really, everything I've read about cataleptic rigidity attests to the fact that it is very forensically significant in showing what the decedent was physically, willfully doing at the exact moment that they died. To believe the murder theory, you'd have to believe that either Hartshorne is lying, is incompetent and misdiagnosed the phenomenon, or that Kurt was consciously squeezing the barrel while someone else pulled the trigger.
@GoddessFourWinds The 1.52mg/L blood morphine level of Cobain is extreme, I can't argue with that. But, from what I have read, the only thing which precludes the notion that Cobain was able to function with that level of heroin is simply that no other case is on record with someone having shot themselves with a similar level. To me, it's not necessarily that that it CAN'T happen, just that it HASN'T happened, *on record*.
@TestMeatDollSteak Over the years, Tom's received calls, emails and in-person talks with thousands of people...including health care workers and junkies. They've all agreed that no one can do anything after a dose like that because they nod off immediately.
@GoddessFourWinds Maybe you're right. Thing is, we really have no idea exactly how much heroin Kurt was using, or how regular a basis he actually used. There's a quote from Kurt in Azerrad's Come As You Are, where Kurt about shooting a hundred dollar's worth of heroin in one shot, and "not even feeling it, hardly." He said he couldn't quantify that in terms of grams, just the cost. Maybe he had an abnormally high tolerance built up? Cadaveric spasm would seem to attest to that being the case.
@TestMeatDollSteak When Kurt went to rehab, there was no sign of recent heroin use. When Kurt was on his final tour, no one said he was doing anything but water. The doctor who saw him in Rome found no narcotics in Kurt's system. After Kurt received medical attention for his stomach, I don't believe his habit was nearly as big as everyone said it was. Heroin doesn't build up in the blood. It's processed out pretty quickly. Kurt would have had to have been using VERY heavily towards the end, and
@GoddessFourWinds Heroin leaves the system after about 3 days. All the Rome incident shows is that perhaps it had been that long since he shot up. I've heard the story about Kurt not having signs of heroin use when he entered Exodus, but why would a busy drug rehab treatment facility admit a patient who showed no signs of use or withdrawal? Accounts if his use vary from person to person. We have no real way of confirming what his actual habit was.
@GoddessFourWinds Again, I've read DMDPT, so I understand all the implications about his weight, and the research being bereft of comparable cases to Cobain's. I stand by my original comment that there really isn't anything which scientifically precludes the notion that a person can build a tolerance to that level; it's simply never been shown, *on record*. Cataleptic rigidity, on the other hand, HAS to occur as a direct result of a person WILLFULLY contracting their muscles when they die.
@TestMeatDollSteak Willfully? I thought it was a spasm. Those don't occur willfully, as far as I know. I thought it was cause by brain signals due to trauma. I know I've had a gazillion muscle spasms and there was nothing willful about any of them.
@GoddessFourWinds The term "cadaveric spasm" is sometimes used to refer to 2 different phenomena, for some reason. One is an actual postmortem "spasm" caused by electrical impulses in the body after death. The one we are referring to also goes under the names instantaneous rigidity, instantaneous rigor, and cataleptic rigidity. Would you like me to PM you a few sites?
@TestMeatDollSteak I'm pretty well convinced, because it supports murder, that the spasm happened at the instant of death. Anyone could have held Kurt's hand on the shotgun, which I'd have done to try to get his prints on it. :) I have read about it. And seen pictures. And talked to my detective friend (who is not Tom Grant) about it.
@GoddessFourWinds No, you're simply misunderstanding the phenomenon, how it occurs, and what it is indicative of. If someone held his hand while he were unconscious, his body would simply go through a stage of primary muscle relaxation, and you would not find the same firm grip of the weapon. I've really tried explaining this to you in a number of ways. It is not a "spasm" in the sense that you are accustomed to thinking of the term. It occurs because of ATP deletion, from contraction.
@TestMeatDollSteak i know what you mean - why there were no fingerprints on the gun. But why were no fingerprints on the pencil, which Kurt wrote the so called suicide note? and the "suicide not" was not a real-suicide note - instead the last 4 lines - and these 4 lines were written in an absolutly different hand writing.&like Goddess4Winds said, there exists these page of pracitice writing in CL´s bag&someone practiced Kurts hand writing.There are so many obviously facts, that the story CL told
@catinhas77 OK...this is clearly something that a lot of people have a difficult time grasping. I'm begging your pardon, but I must interject that cataleptic rigidity does quite a lot more than simply offer a sound forensic explanation for the lack of finger prints on the shotgun. It is the phenomenon that Hartshorne observed which gave him sound forensic reason to believe that Cobain was neither dead nor incapacitated at the moment he was shot. I can PM you the same sites that I gave Goddess...
@TestMeatDollSteak Why are you still talking about this when, according to the report you sent me, there should have been NO sign of cadaveric spasm since it would have diminished with the rigor mortis within 48 hours of death?
@GoddessFourWinds You mean where it says "It lasts for two to three days in temperate regions"? The pathologist resides and works in Jamaica. The onset and duration of rigor differs based on climate and humidity. He offers speed and duration of onset for both his own climate, and temperate climates.
@TestMeatDollSteak No. It said 24-48 hours. Are you talking about the same site you showed me? It's the only one I looked at. I can understand 2-3 days in temperate regions. Not in Seattle and not around the time Kurt died.
@GoddessFourWinds 2-3 days is what the site I directed you towards says. Dr. Dinesh Rao's Forensic Pathology online. Are you sure you read the same page? It had the header: "Muscualar changes". And Seattle IS in a temperate region, between the poles and the tropics.
@TestMeatDollSteak Ah. That's right. (You'll have to excuse me and my sleep deprivation.) Now you need to tell me what that means for an oceanic climate zone, since you seem to want to stick to this point.
@GoddessFourWinds Temperate Zone: the area or region between the tropic of cancer and the arctic circle, or between the tropic of capricorn and antarctic circle. Did you even read the site that I directed you towards, Goddess?
@TestMeatDollSteak The entire US is within in the temperate zone. Within that, there are other zones...ie, arid and oceanic, for 2...meaning the climate in Louisiana is not the same as the climate in Arizona and bodies within each will decay differently when exposed to the elements. (Please, don't insult my intelligence.)
@GoddessFourWinds Who was insulting anyone's intelligence? Chill, girl. You, even by your own admission, were confused about "temperate zones", and then I asked if you had read the site. I hardly called you stupid. And, yes, all of North America is in a temperate zone. Speed of rigor onset, and the shortest durations of rigor are in very hot conditions. Seattle was in the 50's during the time Cobain's body was found...
@TestMeatDollSteak I had just agreed with you, and asked a question in relation to the information to which I'd just agreed. Then you gave me information...about which I'd just agreed and asked again if I'd read the article. Yeah. That's insulting. But I'm generally fair so I'm overlooking this.
Without rereading our conversation, how is that Kurt's hand was pried from the shotgun, yet no fingerprints were obtained from it AT ALL? Don't you find that odd? Not even a little bit?
@GoddessFourWinds Not really. Again, they found prints, they were just smudged. The act of prying his hand off the gun might've even contributed to that in some way, I simply don't know. I've also considered the possibility that the recoil of the gun caused it to twist in his locked "death grip", thereby also offering an explanation for the port facing the opposite side? Just a guess, again. Seems plausible, but I don't have the education Hartshorne/others did...
@TestMeatDollSteak Have you never seen the pic of Kurt goofing around with Dave and Krist where he's holding a rifle in his mouth? The shotgun was staged exactly like that photo...inverted.
Do you know when I first saw that photo...minus Krist and Dave? The week of Kurt's death. NO ONE but Courtney would have released a photo like that because it was in extremely poor taste yet it supported the ever-increasing lies she was feeding to the media.
@GoddessFourWinds Ok..I've seen that picture...doesn't mean the shotgun was "staged". Hartshorne concluded it was anything BUT staged, and it also offers a photographic reason to believe that Cobain might've performed the act in reality as he had mimed in jest...or maybe just coincidence. Courtney lies to the media, I won't argue that, but now we're getting off topic: Cataleptic rigidity.
@TestMeatDollSteak There is nothing in the autopsy report that concludes suicide.
A cadaveric spasm that happens at the time of death only means that a body is still alive when trauma happens. It does not mean a body is conscious. Or did I miss that in a report. Spasms even happen after death, as the body continues to shut down during brain seizures, as I understand it.
@GoddessFourWinds There are 2 different phenomena that are referred to as "cadaveric spasm" in the medical community, for whatever reason, so I know that this point can be confusing. The spasms that happen postmortem are different and separate from cataleptic rigidity. "The muscles that were contracted in life become stiff and rigid immediately after death without passing into the stage of primary relaxation."
@GoddessFourWinds Also, we don't have the autopsy reports...as far as everything I've read, the only thing that separates Cobain's death from any other gun suicide involving a victim under the influence is his reported blood morphine level, and that is another conversation altogether, as well...
@TestMeatDollSteak I'm fairly certain I read about Kurt's death being due to perforating gunshot wound to the head. That would have been from the autopsy report.
And refresh my memory, please. What is it you want to say about this cataleptic rigidity?
@GoddessFourWinds Yes, I agree that we have certain information from the autopsy reports, but we don't have the full autopsy reports, I think that should be a mutually agreeable statement. The presence of instantaneous rigor in Cobain's hand around the barrel of the gun contradicts the assertion that he was in a coma/dead when the gun went off, simple as that...
@TestMeatDollSteak No. It doesn't. Anyone could have held his hand around the barrel. After all, they'd want prints. And there may have been more than one person present. Who knows?
Oh and btw... You guys below me, you deserve a price or a statue or something for the longest and most boring discussion ever! Congrats!
Aquaseafoamshame01 6 months ago
It's only boring if you don't understand the facts of the case.
GoddessFourWinds 6 months ago
This is SO ridiculous.... Take that from a big Nirvana and Kurt Cobain fan. Think of how Frances Bean Cobain will feel when she would see this video.. Just sad and ridiculous... And what does it matter if he's murdered or just died in an overdose? He won't come back, accept that!
Aquaseafoamshame01 6 months ago
@Aquaseafoamshame01 Wtf? Of course people accept the fact that Kurt's not coming back. How insulting can you be? Do you think people are idiots? You must not be much of a fan if you don't think it matters if he's been murdered.
GoddessFourWinds 6 months ago 3
@GoddessFourWinds Well, take a look at my channel then... Or my second channel 'Nevermindip'. It's pretty much dedicated to them... I got all their CD's, boxsets, a lot of their bootlegs, With The Lights Out, Outcesticide CD's, a lot of biographies like Heavier Than Heaven, Cobain Unseen, BUT ALSO:' Love And Death: The Murder Of Kurt Cobain' and 'Who Killed Kurt Cobain?' I know the facts of the case... But you have to admit that after 10 pages of discussion, you won't find an answer...
Aquaseafoamshame01 6 months ago
@Aquaseafoamshame01 And why is that? The facts speak for themselves. A crime has been committed. Are you denying that? Are you denying Courtney Love's involvement? Since you know all the facts...
GoddessFourWinds 6 months ago
"You don't mix alcohol and heroin or you'll die. It cuts down on respiratory twice as much, there's no way you're going to survive that. Everyone I know who's O.D.'d has gotten drunk. And it's been late at night, too." - Kurt Cobain. If he knew that about heroin, then I'm sure he knew what mixing a powerful sedative like Rohypnol w/ alcohol would do. His "explanation" is an obvious excuse.
TestMeatDollSteak 9 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak Kurt DIDN'T mix drugs and alcohol. He had no NEED to. He wasn't even suicidal at the time. Everyone, except CL, including his best friend, said so. Courtney tried to poison him with the Rohypnol and Kurt tried to cover up the whole incident by saying HE took too many pills with booze. You can tell by when CL called for help when she woke up and found Kurt unresponsive. She wanted to wait until she thought he was dead.
GoddessFourWinds 9 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds Kurt told Dave he mixed the drugs and the alcohol. Nobody THOUGHT he was suicidal at the time. How is a suicidal person "supposed" to act? Do they go around telling everyone "Hey, I'm suicidal"? Or do they intentionally down a powerful sedative and mix it with alcohol, when by their own statements they know better than to do that kind of thing? If Love really wanted to Kurt to die, why later insist that he enter rehab?
TestMeatDollSteak 9 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds No, I simply must LOL at your assertion that Kurt would cover up a murder attempt on him by his wife. I patently reject the notion that Kurt Cobain was some hen-pecked, spineless pussy that would stay in a relationship with a woman who he thought had attempted to kill him. At every step of the way, Kurt Cobain did what HE wanted to do. People who knew him in life have attested to how willful he was. Kurt admitted he took the pills, he lied about it being an "accident".
TestMeatDollSteak 9 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak While he may have taken some purposely, I honestly don't know if he did or not. I believe he said what he did to cover up the whole incident because he didn't know what happened for sure, and he wasn't going to make false claims without knowing the facts because he wasn't like that. I also believe CL wanted to make sure he died before he recovered his full memory. Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said any of those things, tyvm.
GoddessFourWinds 9 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds Well, you can believe whatever you want to believe. I simply see you trying to conform the fact that Grohl says Kurt admitted to him that he took the pills and drank the champagne to the "murder scenario". What makes sense to me is that if Kurt "wasn't sure", or "didn't know" what had happened to him, he would have told Dave he didn't know, instead of taking responsibility for it, and claiming it was "an accident". IMHO, Kurt knew exactly what he was doing, he wasn't dumb.
TestMeatDollSteak 9 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak Dave and Kurt were very close. Dave was deeply hurt by what happened and Kurt wanted to downplay it. Make Dave not worry about it. So he chose to say what he did. I don't fault him for that. He made less a big deal of it than CL who out right lied by saying Kurt took dozens of pills. (And she threatened his life again by wanting to have him moved to another hospital against doctor's orders when he was still gravely ill.)
GoddessFourWinds 9 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds Dave says the band really weren't as close as it sounds like you think they were. I think that the 2 had a genuine respect for eachother's talents and liked each other as people, but Dave had told Azerrad that "We do depend on eachother for certain things, but for the most part, we're really removed from eachother - far removed. As close as we may seem sometimes, it's not like bosom buddies...we're friends but we're not best friends or even great friends."
TestMeatDollSteak 9 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak That was more towards the end...after CL began to drive a wedge between them. I've heard Dave talk about Kurt many times. You can tell how much he cared about him as a person.
GoddessFourWinds 9 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds "That was more towards the end..." - That interview was conducted w/ Dave in early 1993. I *love* how everything becomes Courtney's fault. If anything, Kurt and Courtney segregated themselves from the rest of their friends and family when they started shooting dope together. Dope was the real "wedge" between the Cobains and everyone else. When everyone began blaming Courtney for everything, Kurt stood up for her and defended her. I never said Dave & Kurt didn't like each other.
TestMeatDollSteak 9 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds I do think that Kurt wanted to downplay it, we agree on that. But his attempt to downplay it was his telling Dave that it was "a mistake", instead of the obvious suicide attempt that it was, IMHO.
TestMeatDollSteak 9 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak Again, there was no reason for Kurt to commit suicide. He loved his daughter and would not have wanted to cause her pain. He was so afflicted by his parents' divorce, there's no way he would have hurt his daughter by killing himself. She was his life.
GoddessFourWinds 9 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds "There was no reason for Kurt to commit suicide" - That's what a lot of people think, from the outside looking in. A lot of people also don't understand how someone who worked so hard to be in a popular band and make it on a major record label could have been so contradictorily and utterly unhappy with his position as a world famous rock star. I think that Kurt Cobain was a very conflicted man, and that the drugs combined with his personal drama led to his unfortunate decision.
TestMeatDollSteak 9 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak I don't believe he was "contradictorily and utterly unhappy with his position as a world famous rockstar." It was his dream since childhood. He was a perfectionist. He practiced constantly. He knew the ins and outs of everything and fretted over the business, especially the creative end of it. He adored his daughter. Everyone knows that. And end of a marriage isn't the end of the world, especially one that had been on rocky ground for so long.
GoddessFourWinds 9 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds I'm actually agreeing with you that the vast majority of everything Cobain did with Nirvana was in the interest of becoming popular and famous. "Playing the game" at Sub Pop, signing to a major label, the TV appearances, world tours, etc. But, once he was there and in the position, he had conflicting feelings about it. He worked hard to get there, & he played music from genuine passion/inspiration, but hated the press's invasion of privacy, and fans fawning over him. Conflicted
TestMeatDollSteak 9 months ago
And also, if Kurt didn't remember what had happened to him, then when he spoke to Dave on the phone about it, you'd think he'd just tell him something like "Man, I don't know WHAT the fuck happened, I don't remember a thing", or something to that effect. But he didn't. He told Dave he'd "made a mistake, was drinking champagne and taking pills", and apologized to him. Totally consistent with Kurt's being embarrassed by the whole thing and making excuses to Dave to cover for it, IMHO.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak I suppose you've never heard of an accidental overdose? I believe at the time, he had no idea what had happened and just assumed he'd taken too much. I mean, it obviously landed him in the hospital. Is it consistent with a suicide attempt? To tell your spouse you want a divorce, fill your pockets with money and then attempt suicide? Riiiight. Not. And CL said she awoke at 4-4:30 to find Kurt unconscious but didn't call for help til 6:30? Yeah.
GoddessFourWinds 9 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds So...now you think he simply accidentally overdosed? I thought that you thought it was a murder attempt? Regardless, Dave says that Kurt self admitted to him that he took the pills and drank the champagne...Kurt wasn't some moron. He knew what that combination of sedatives and alcohol would do to his respiratory system.
TestMeatDollSteak 9 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak I was using that as HIS explanation of what happened...that he must have accidentally overdosed...before he could remember everything. And you're ignoring the other events that surround the case...including Cl's nicely applied makeup for the informed paparazzi that met her at the hospital... She looks damn good for a woman who woke up and OH YEAH WAITED to call for someone to SAVE HER OVERDOSED husband. Uh huh.
GoddessFourWinds 9 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds And, oh yeah, Courtney's make up...only someone as obsessed with the media and her own career as Courtney Love would stop to think that her husband's O.D. would probably result in a photo op'. She's a self-obsessed fame-whore, I've never argued that, but that hardly makes her a murderer. Especially when the guy you're accusing her of attempting to murder admitted that he took the pills and drank the champagne himself. Where is the proof of murder? It's all just "suspicions"...
TestMeatDollSteak 9 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak No one says "I'm going to divorce you!" then fills their pockets with money and attempts suicide.
GoddessFourWinds 9 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds How are you so certain he said "I'm going to divorce you"? Were you there? We don't have the Rome Note, just Courtney's accounts of it being "a diatribe" against her, and witnesses claiming they heard the couple arguing. If Kurt were so intent on divorcing her, he would have signed and filed the papers. And this is all excluding Grohl's account of Kurt admitting to him that he took the pills and drank the champagne. Kurt knew what that would do to him.
TestMeatDollSteak 9 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak Because CL told Tom Grant that Kurt told her he was leaving her. And they'd both called Rosemary Carroll..CL seeking the "meanest, most vicious lawyer she could find." It's why CL reported Kurt had filled his pockets with money...so he could leave. There was a prenup. It would have given CL what she'd had going into the marriage and Hole. Which was worth WAY less than NIRVANA. And whatever she'd get for maybe child support and alimony. Certainly not what she got with suicide.
GoddessFourWinds 9 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds Ugh...I've heard all this before, and if the tape of Love you're referring to is the one on this very upload, then all Love admits to Grant is that there was talk of a separation, but that she didn't think they'd have to divorce this year because Kurt was supposed to do Lollapalooza for 4 months and Hole was supposed to tour for 9 months. It's clear that there was a POSSIBILITY, but nothing was set in stone. Neither party ever signed or filed any papers, that I'm aware.
TestMeatDollSteak 9 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak Kurt had already turned down the Lolapalloza gig. It's part of the reason CL was furious with him. She believed he was turning down $9 million. She even offered to do it for him. There are recorded interviews of her saying that, too. She often forgets what she says and contradicts what she says when she doesn't know she's being recorded. She's such a liar. You do know it's illegal for these interviews to be shared, don't you?
GoddessFourWinds 9 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds Love had insisted that they sign the prenup in the 1st place. My humble opinion is that IF the couple had actually decided to follow through with divorce, Love would have simply been a gigantic cunt and done her very best to fuck Kurt out of everything she could, including Frances. And she no doubt would have simply started banging some other rock star to keep in the limelight, which is what she did after he died anyways. She's a cunt, but that doesn't = murderer.
TestMeatDollSteak 9 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak IF there would have been a divorce, it would have been preempted by the prenup. She was arrogant enough to believe Hole would have been bigger than NIRVANA so she's have lost out on NIRVANA's earnings. Kurt would have fought her for custody.l Win or lose, there'd have been a huge battle over that.. In the end, Kurt was worth way more dead than alive=motive.
GoddessFourWinds 9 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds Showing a possible motive does not prove that a murder occurred. I'd say it's just as likely that Kurt was despondent over the possibility of a divorce scenario, along with his unhappiness in the limelight and his addiction to heroin, all culminating in his attempt on his own life @ Rome, and his final decision to jump the wall at Exodus, fly to Seattle, and ultimately shoot himself.
TestMeatDollSteak 9 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak Means, motive and opportunity are all important in murder cases. You're claiming Kurt murdered himself and showing those things. I'm saying CL (and others) are responsible and showing those things. I don't believe Kurt was depressed. If he was so depressed, why purchase a shotgun and then go to rehab? Why not then go home and kill yourself? None of that makes sense. Like you said, he wasn't stupid.
GoddessFourWinds 9 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds If he really WANTED to get off drugs, why jump the wall at the rehab facility and go AWOL in Seattle? This all boils down to your own individual interpretation of the events and facts surrounding his case. I'm saying that suicide makes more sense, and this is all excluding the fact that the note was confirmed to be 100% Cobain's writing, and that the gun positioning on the body and coroner's diagnosis of instantaneous rigor were shown to be consistent w/ suicide.
TestMeatDollSteak 9 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak So you want to take the work of the "professionals" of the SPD...including Dr. H. who acted unethically and illegally by discussing the contents of the autopsy report but NOT those of the pros of Exodus who so no signs of recent drug use and no signs of depression with suicidal tendencies? That's cherry picking, for sure. Who said he really wanted to get off drugs? We're talking about murder? Who. What. Why. Why. How.
GoddessFourWinds 9 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds Sorry. My tired brain failed to type that correctly.
GoddessFourWinds 9 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds Lol..what would you have suggested Hartshorne have done? Cobain's blood morphine level was illegally leaked, and journalists were up his and the SPD's ass for answers. He never confirmed nor denied the 1.52mg/L figure, he offered his assessments that led to his verdict of suicide. And why would Exodus admit a patient who showed no signs of recent use or withdrawal? They wouldn't, is the short answer, anymore than any other hospital admits a patient w/ no symptoms.
TestMeatDollSteak 9 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak I'm not talking about the blood morphine level. And didn't you read statements made by people at Exodus about Kurt?
GoddessFourWinds 9 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds I don't necessarily think that Kurt was 100% certain of what he was going to do or how and when he was going to do it...if anything, I'd say the evidence shows that he was probably largely conflicted and experiencing a lot of inner turmoil. Ultimately, though, Kurt did what Kurt wanted to do. The fact that he had Dylan buy the gun for him after his other weapons were taken from him, and that he fled Exodus AND stayed on dope all attest to Kurt doing what HE wanted to do.
TestMeatDollSteak 9 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak Right. He wanted the gun for home protection because he had NONE and believed his life was in danger. And he bought a particular kind of gun to be set up a particular way so innocent bystanders would not be harmed, Then he leaves rehab, after showing he has no reason to be there. (Then his credit card is cancelled and turns up missing and continues to be used). But he buys airlines tickets for TWO,. (And his car has 4 flats.) Yeah. All acts of someone suicidal and way normal.
GoddessFourWinds 9 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds I don't think Cobain was certain of what he was going to do. If he were, then he would have shot himself before he even went to Exodus, or even when he first got back to Seattle after fleeing Exodus. Oh, and credit card transactions don't post the same day that the attempt was made, obviously. It can take a day or even a few days to post, and there aren't records of where or when the actual attempts were placed, so there isn't proof it was used after he died.
TestMeatDollSteak 9 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds I'd say that intentionally mixing rohypnol with champagne when you know what the end result will be, quitting your successful career/band, canceling your engagement for new career opportunity, and refusing help to get off drugs by fleeing a rehab facility when you know you have a small child to care for all speak of someone having major difficulties dealing with pressure and a desire to run from his problems...
TestMeatDollSteak 9 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak I'm getting confused by all the comments. I'm taking this to PMs. Hope you don't mind. There are many I want to address so I hope you understand if I miss some. I'll address this one and ask,
Which video did you mean?
GoddessFourWinds 9 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds I agree. PM's will make the conversation easier to follow for both of us, and we won't be hindered by the character limits, so it's a win/win :)
TestMeatDollSteak 9 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak God, yes! lol And there's always the problem of the dreaded capchas!
GoddessFourWinds 9 months ago
Rome, to me, is totally consistent w/ a suicide attempt. There's passages in Come As You Are of Kurt talking about how most people who accidentally O.D. on dope do it because they were drinking as well. Kurt knew the "double whammy" effect of alcohol and sedatives on the respiratory system. The fact that he wasn't a drinker, but was downing champagne and roofies, shows he knew what he was doing to himself, based on his own statements about mixing substances.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
And I really feel the need to say that his suicide note speaks to quite a lot more than simply "the business end" of things. Cobain isn't talking about retiring from the biz, IMHO, he's talking about a loss of joy and passion in things that used to bring him joy. That's a common factor in people who are depressed and suicidal. It's wasn't just performing or the spotlight, it was writing, creating and listening to music as well. And all the unnecessary guilt he expresses...it's sad.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak "...the embracement of your community.." To whom is this addressing? Right. The entire letter, except for the end, is to the punk crowd. The end tells Courtney to keep performing. The very end, of course, is the added part that is very suspect. I don't think it's sad. Kurt had other plans. To do some solo work and collaborative works. As well as go fishing with his grandpa and purchase a truck. Ah, the plans of a suicidal NEW father who adored his baby...uh huh.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds I've never disagreed on the fact that he's addressing his fans. In fact, I said I always thought it was odd. He called and canceled his plans with Stipe before he went to intervention. If he were so stoked to be working on new projects, why cancel? The end tells Courtney to "please keep going, for Frances"...the two had talked of a suicide pact before shortly after Frances was born... I've always thought he's telling her not to kill herself as well, clearly.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak ...I meant to say that he canceled w/ Stipe before going to Exodus, not the Intervention, my bad.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak No. Courtney made up the suicide pact ideas. Both the ones around Frances's birth and the one around the times of Kurt's death. She even lied about planting stories in the media regarding that. And it worked. YOU believe her.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds No. Kurt himself talks about the suicide pact in Come As You Are, Azerrad's bio of the band. The Vanity Fair article had come out, and Frances was being taken away. Kurt says they took out his hand gun and considered taking their own lives. "It was just so humiliating and it felt like so many powerful people were out to get us that it just seemed hopeless. It didn't seem like we'd ever win, it was amazing. We were totally suicidal." That's from Kurt Cobain.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak Kurt was furious about the article, and even made threatening phone calls about it. People say lots of things. I've been so angry with people I've said I've felt like gouging out their eyes...and mine. Does that mean I've stood with scissors in my hands ready to do that? Of course not. When I've said I've felt like strangling someone, have I wrapped rope around their necks? Hell, no. God. Think about what you're saying. Do you want to take everything literally?
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds The quote is directly from Kurt's mouth, Azerrad had everything on tape, so it's not what I'M saying. They didn't kill themselves that day, obviously. Since Kurt himself talked about taking his gun out and about how suicidal they were, I'd say it's fair to say that the couple had considered killing themselves. He's not talking about his threats to kill Lynn Herschberg here. He says they were suicidal at the time, but they didn't do it.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak Again, people say lots of things. You may say you feel like you want to kill someone who's wronged you, and you may even take out a gun. That doesn't mean you're going to shoot them. Have you never been so angry at someone you've just wanted to beat the skin off of them? You may have even stood so close to them with your fists clenched that you could smell their breath. But you didn't even touch them. Courtney once wrote she wanted to marry a rockstar and kill him. Annnnd...?
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds I offered the quote to show you that Courtney Love is not the only person who talked about their having a suicide pact. Kurt also said it. Whether or not they actually intended to do it, I don't know.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak By the way, quote your source for your story about Dave. I've never heard that. At all. As far as I know, Kurt didn't take pills. Or drink champagne. (And there were no narcotics in his system...big heroin user that he was supposed to be.) Rome has always been a problem, for me, and totally appears to be an attempt on Kurt's life, so please show me this interview.
The so called pact I'd heard about was one that was supposed to have been made right after Frannie was born...
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds Here's the link to the video where Dave discusses talking to Kurt on the phone after Rome (it's a fascinating interview altogether). The part pertaining to Rome is at about 5:30. /watch?v=hwYqYTNHsnk
Kurt says he often avoided heroin while in Europe, he didn't want to get caught going through customs w/ it, & H only stays in the system for 3 days anyway, so that's all that blood test would be able to speak for. And yes, Kurt was talking about right after Frances was born.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
If Love added the last 4 lines to make it look like a suicide note, then what is your theory on how the note found its way into the hands of the murderer, considering Cobain had fled Exodus and flown to Seattle sporadically without telling anyone? Was the note already in Seattle in the hands of one of his "friends" paid by Love, just by luck (or lack of luck, in Kurt's case)?
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak I never said Courtney paid anyone. Did the person who murdered Kurt put the note in the room? I don't know. Was Courtney in L.A. the entire time between the time she reported Kurt missing and the day his body was found? I don't know? Did someone visit her in L.A. and then return to Lake Washington during that same time? I don't know. There are many ways that could have played out.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds You'd think that if there were any records of Love having left LA to go to Seattle, or of anyone else having met her and then flown up there, someone like Grant would've been all over that like flies on dog shit. It's because of this kind of conjecturing, absent evidence of any kind, that I reject the belief in the murder theory. Besides, the handwritten note was proved to be 100% Cobain's writing, & I've already given a very plausible explanation for "suspicious" looking lines
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
...it all just seems like there's a lot more kinds of emotions and subject matter being discussed than just the business end of things, or retiring from his band. The whole thing is written in such a rambling, stream of consciousness kind of way, though...I've always thought it was odd that he chose to address the fans more than his family/friends. Guess he was a lot more concerned w/ the fans and being a rock star than he liked to let on in the press. He seemed like a really conflicted guy...
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak I'll talk about this later. I'll just say that the note wasn't a suicide note...that's why it talked about the business. A suicide note would have addressed his friends and family. IMHO, of course.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds "A suicide note would addressed his friends and family" - Well, it DID address his family, at least the 2 people on Earth that he presumably loved more than anyone else - his wife and baby girl. Even in the main body of the note he talks about them. It's not a happy note, to say the least. It's quite sad, and sounds like he was writing from a more emotional state of mind than a logical one, IMHO. The drug addiction I'm sure didn't help him any...it's sad he decided to die...
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak Kurt didn't talk about wanting to end his life after he received treatment for his stomach pain. He never really wanted to commit suicide. He wanted to end his physical pain... It's a common thing for anyone with chronic pain. I'm sure you know that. He even talked about it in interviews. I'm VERY familiar with that kind of talk, as is anyone with chronic pain. Kurt was a wishy washy, moody Pisces. His feelings on paper were reflective of that. No biggie.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds But he DID continue to use heroin after receiving treatment for his stomach pain...that was the main problem, Kurt's major downfall, unfortunately. He either couldn't or didn't want to get off the drugs...I've known a lot of drug addicts, some ex-heroin addicts. They said it was hell; the only time in their lives when they actually saw killing themselves as an option...it's sad Kurt was in that position, and that he made the choice he did. The whole thing is sad.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak While heroin is the hardest drug to kick, you won't find a heroin addict who says that they'd USE heroin to commit suicide because of the high. They may feel depressed BETWEEN dosings but no one commits suicide WITH heroin. It feels too good.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds I myself have never used heroin, but I know some ex-junkies, and they say that you really get to point in your addiction where you know you're caught in a fucked up cycle of getting sick and spiraling downward whenever you're not high, and even when you're high, you know it isn't going to last. You know the drug fucking owns you. I think it's fair to say, from even his Journals, that Cobain knew he was a cycle like that...it sucks. I'll never do heroin, ever.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak And by the way, Kurt was not so in love with Courtney, toward the end. He believed she'd been cheating on him. He'd talked to Rosemary Carroll about leaving her and cutting her from his will. That provided Courtney with motive. All of that and his turning down the Lollapalooza tour, which CL believed was worth about $9 million.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds Saying that he was "not so in love with her" is your attempting to read into Kurt's mind a bit more than you could really know. He never told anyone that he wasn't in love with her or anything even close to it, that I've ever heard. It is clear that the couple was having marital problems, though, I won't argue that. I could see money being a motive...she loves the fame and the high life, but if they had separated, I think she would've just found some other star to fuck...
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak A person who is not so in love would speak to his lawyer about wanting to get a divorce and remove his spouse from his will. That seems like a safe assumption.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds A person who is fully committed to the idea of getting a divorce, or removing their spouse from their will, does it. He didn't. Why not file for divorce right then and there, if he was so decidedly no longer in love with his wife? It's clear that there was talk of a divorce or possible separation, even from Love's own mouth, but nothing was set in stone. I'd say it's a fair assumption that Cobain was probably conflicted about what he was going to do...
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
I agree that the note was definitely rambling, and I actually like your theory that the note was written spur of the moment at IHOP, because that's actually consistent with how Kurt wrote a lot of things: whenever/wherever the inspiration struck him on whatever was handy. But, if he were just happy to be moving on w/out Nirvana, why all the rambling guilt, the "daughter who reminds me too much of myself", being a "miserable death rocker", loving people too much/hating all people in general...
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
Everything in the police reports are consistent with suicide: the smudged finger prints, no signs of forced entry or struggle, the gun positioning, the gunshot wound itself, the coroner's assessment of cadaveric spasm...all consistent w/ suicide. Not necessarily inconsistent with homicide, though...we're still going in circles. I've even conceded that I'd like to see the evidence get another look, I just doubt it will ever happen...barring a confession I don't see proof of wrong doing by anyone
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
Cadaveric spasm cannot be faked. Nothing else simulates it. It is generally observed to occur in instances of intense physical struggle and/or intense emotional duress. By even your accounts, there was no struggle. In order for the scenario to fit something you'd expect to see w/ instantaneous rigor, then emotional duress seems most likely. If he were incapacitated, he would be under no duress and you wouldn't expect to observe the condition...
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak Look. I'm done for tonight. If you've anything more to say, I'll address it at a later time.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
OK, the thing with rigor is, assessments of it are interpreted by the pathologist and are qualitative, not quantitative. The pathologist attempts to manipulate the various joints of the body, generally starting with the jaw and moving downward, and makes a qualitative assessment of the stiffness of the joint. We are really relying on Hartshorne's ability to distinguish instantaneous from regular rigor mortis...
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
On a strictly logical point, if you think that the murderer would've held Kurt's hand against the gun in a partial effort to "get Kurt's prints on it", then why would said murderer then wipe the prints off of everything, as is the explanation for the lack of identifiable finger prints? You've already conjectured that the murderer wiped the prints from the shell casing, gun, pen and note...why would he do that, if he could've simply worn gloves and pressed Cobain's fingers onto everything?
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
"This condition is of great medico-legal importance. Occasionally, in case of suicide, the weapon, e.g. pistol or knife is seen firmly grasped in the victim's hand which is a strong presumptive evidence of suicide. Attempts may be made to simulate this condition in order to conceal the murder, but ordinary rigor does not produce the same firm grip of a weapon..." - From Forensic Pathology online, by Dr. Dinesh Rao
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak Yes. I'm not talking about rigor. Even rigor relaxes after a few hours. I'm talking about at the time the trigger was pulled. I don't recall someone's needing to be conscious at the time of death for that to happen. I'm saying someone could have positioned the shotgun with Kurt's hand on the barrel and pulled the trigger, at which time the spasm could have caused Kurt's hand to tighten on the barrel. I've seen many photos of shogun suicides and none have had the (cont...)
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak (cont) shotgun so perfectly placed, even with cadaveric spasm.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds If he were dead or unconscious already, he wouldn't have been squeezing the barrel so tightly. From what I've read and understand, the muscles are simply instantaneously frozen into place at the moment of death. You're saying that his unconscious fist would somehow clamp down at the moment that he's shot. This seems to contradict everything that I've read on the subject.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak ...part 2 ;) ...there are so many obviously facts, that the story CL told the media 1994 and later are only lies lies lies. & hey, she herself told, that she believes (her best friend at this time ´94&also the "nanny" of Frances), that Cali DeWitt knows much more than he tells her & she thinks, he heard at least the shotgun - whoa! You can hear that all on the many tapes ( telephone calls between CL & Tom Grant ).&there are so many not explainable things what happened. peace
catinhas77 10 months ago
Nikolas Hartshorne, from Love and Death:
With gun suicides, you always still see the victim holding the barrel of the gun. That's because at the point of death, the hand freezes in place. We literally had to pry that shotgun from Cobain's hand. You could still see the markings in his palm from where he had been gripping it for days. That's a sure sign the wound was self inflicted. That kind of evidence doesn't lie."
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak Hartshorne should not have done that autopsy because he was biased, since he was a friend of both Kurt and Courtney's. While yes, the death grip is a fact, there's no way to know whether Kurt was holding the shotgun or it was put into his hand. For all we know, he was gripping the can of root beer when he died. Don't you find it strange that there were no legible prints on the shotgun. A hand gun, I can understand. But not a shotgun...or the shells...or the pen on the "note."
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds "There's no way to know whether Kurt was holding the shotgun..." The police reports also attest to the fact that his left hand was around the barrel of the gun. Maybe they're all lying? If he were gripping the can of Root Beer when he died, and instantaneous rigor had occurred, then it would still have been in his hand when the cops showed up. With all due respect, perhaps you maybe don't understand how the phenomenon occurs, of the force required to break it?
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak The cops botched this investigation. They labeled it a suicide as soon as they walked through the doors, according to their statements. They said the only reason they called Homicide is because of who it was. Kurt didn't receive the kind of investigation that is normal protocol. First they said there was gun residue on Kurt's hand, and then stated later that, that wasn't the case and they had no idea why that was included in the report.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds As far as all the prints go, it's apparently not at all uncommon to not find legible prints on objects, due to sweaty hands, or fingers sliding across a surface as opposed to being firmly and evenly pressed onto them. The cops found prints, just nothing legible. If I had to take a guess, I'd say Kurt could've smudged his prints from the pen when he gripped it with his fist and stabbed it into the note.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak There is now a way to test the metal ends of shotgun shells for prints. Even after decades BECAUSE of the oils left by people's skin. There should have been prints on the shotgun. Handle one yourself and see if you leave no prints, especially after loading it with 3 shells. You'd have to rub all the prints off. And why wasn't the shotgun tested until a month after Kurt's death...after being put into it's storage case and handled by other people?
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds I've heard all these questions before, and to me, they're all just questions. Just reasons to speculate, or perhaps be suspicious that *maybe* he might've been murdered. But where is the "smoking gun" evidence? The shotgun is now gone. The greenhouse he died in is gone. His body is gone. The original handwritten suicide note is gone. What would come of a new investigation? Only his autopsy reports and the crime scene photos remain of the original evidence.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak The smoking gun is the amount of heroin in Kurt's system. It would have been physically impossible for Kurt to pull the trigger. If someone positioned Kurt's hand on the barrel of the shotgun before pulling the trigger, there you'd get cadaveric spasm. I believe Kurt was nearly pretty much dead when he was killed. Blood circulates through the body 7-8 times per minute, so a massive overdose would have meant there was no struggle.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds "If someone positioned Kurt's hand around the barrel of the shotgun before pulling the trigger, you'd get cadaveric spasm" - Not from what I've read about the phenomenon. I can direct you to a couple forensic pathology websites. The spasm is an instantaneous freezing of the muscles into place at the exact moment of death. If Kurt were already dead/unconscious, he wouldn't be *squeezing* the barrel of the gun. His hand would only be lightly wrapped around the barrel.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak If he were unconscious, his hand would have spasmed when the trigger was pulled. I don't remember reading that one had to be conscious for that to happen.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds "I don't remember reading that one had to be conscious for that to happen" - Everything that I've read attests to the fact that the phenomenon occurs when someone is under great emotional and/or physical duress. You have to be in the physical, willful act of *squeezing* something at the very moment that you die in order for the object to be held with such a firm grip in the hand. That's why it's so useful in determining what the decedent was doing at the very moment they died.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak Again, I don't even know that I believe what Hartshorne has to say. Many years after Kurt's death, he talked about someone DRIVING after the kind of dose Kurt had, yet he failed to produce documentation. Since no one's ever been able to show a case like that (and I believe if CL and Team could do that, they'd have it splattered all over the media), I'm guessing it's because there is no case like it.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds Well, I simply don't find a decent reason to believe that Hartshorne would intentionally fabricate having diagnosed the condition in Cobain's hand, thereby knowingly concealing a murder, and ostensibly because why? Because he knew CL on some social level, of booked a few Nirvana gigs back in the day? That just doesn't hold water for me. I could see maybe if he were paid off, but the isn't any evidence of that.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak I believe he screwed up. Whether it was intentional or not, I don't know. But I also believe he did things to cover his mistakes.
The easiest way to settle this would be to have the photos of the crime scene and the entire autopsy report released. And Courtney just won't let that happen.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds I have yet to see any real proof that Hartshorne screwed up. Or that Janis Parker also screwed up in her assessment of the suicide note. I will agree with you that we can't know for sure without the autopsy report or the crime scene photos. Until that day comes (IF that day comes), I will remain skeptical about the idea that Kurt Cobain was murdered.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak More than one person looked at the so-called suicide note and gave different opinions. Since Hartshorne later made claims that he did not back up, I believe he could make any claims, since he had no reason to back them up, especially since kids died because they believed Kurt killed himself. (I've met and stopped 2 fans who were considering suicide because Kurt supposedly did it). Reopening a case can take years, but it's not unheard of.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds "More than one person looked at the suicide note and gave different opinions" - Not exactly. Janis Parker is the *only* person to have ever offered an opinion on the actual, handwritten suicide note, & she had the Rome Note to compare it to. All other analysts had only a poor quality photocopy to examine, and as such the results were either inconclusive, or "possibly 2 authors". No analysts has ever shown that CL was the definitive author of the last 4 lines.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak I wonder if she compared it to the practice writing CL had in her back pack. I'm gonna say, No.
You know how Kurt would write on whatever was handy, oftentimes? Do you know on what the note was written?
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds *Zero* forensic analysis of the "practice sheet" were ever preformed, to my knowledge. You'd have to believe that Parker, in addition to Hartshorne and every other cop who investigated Cobain's case, were all completely incompetent and or/or negligent. I'm not willing to make that leap, not without the actual autopsy reports/crime scene photos. I don't know what the note was written on, offhand.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak I never said Parker was incompetent in any way. I know that she's just one hand writing analyzer. And I don't believe the cops were intentionally negligent. I believe they were setup to believe what they were looking at was a suicide and from initial analysis reached that conclusion, when they should have withheld opinions until a full investigation was completed. That normally takes months. Not hours.
The note was written on the back of an IHOP place mat.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds An IHOP place mat? Really? I had never heard that before. Where did you read that? Maybe Kurt hit an IHOP up for some food in the 3 or so days he was alone in Seattle before he died. As you said, Kurt liked to write on just about anything he could get his hands on. I don't see how it being written on the back of an IHOP place mat really points to murder, do you?
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak My source is Tom Grant.
I don't believe it was a suicide note. I believe Kurt was practicing telling people that he was leaving the music industry for awhile. He often wrote letters to people he never sent or intended to send. He could have written that at any time. I believe he wrote it much before the end because in it he's praising Courtney, and we know there were no praises in the latter months.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds Well, that's just Tom Grant's theory. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that the Cobains were having problems, but Tom is really trying to place himself inside the heart and mind of Kurt Cobain, whom he had never even once met, by asserting that there were "no praises for her in the latter months." Tom can't speak with authority on whether or not Kurt still loved Courtney, despite the marital problems.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak No. The IHOP place mat thing I learned from Tom Grant. The rest is MY theory. I never said Kurt no longer loved Courtney. I do know that, according to Rosemary Carroll, Kurt wanted to divorce CL and remove her from his will. He believed she was cheating on him. Even CL said the note in Rome wasn't very nice towards her.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds Ok, then replace "Tom" with "you" in my response to that theory, with all due respect.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak I may be guilty of making inferences from the evidence, but that's what we do. We try to figure out what happened from what we know. It's how circumstantial evidence is used to convict.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds True, we can all only speculate as to what it all means. I try not to do too much speculation on what Kurt may or may not have been thinking or feeling at ANY point in his life, much less those tumultuous final months. Accounts of people who knew him seem to vary, and I never met the guy. I think we will probably never know for sure what he was thinking, whether it was suicide or not.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak I do believe Rosemary Carroll, even if she's now stuck by the confidentiality agreement CL made all of her employers sign...which Tom Grant did not, of course. :)
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds Sure, Rosemary, and Love herself have said that the note was essentially a diatribe against Courtney. When it's all said and done, though, we don't have the actual text of the 3 page note, so we don't know what all was or was not said in it. I don't see how any of this precludes the notion that Kurt might have ultimately decided that he would rather die than go through a divorce, or possibly lose custody of Frances. It's all just speculation, though.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak Wow. Rather die than go through divorce? I'm sure there are people who think such extreme thoughts, but I've never heard of Kurt being so off the wall. More than anything, Kurt loved Frannie. I just don't know how he'd think his being dead to her would be better than divorce?
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds I don't know how he'd think his being dead would be better, either. But he wouldn't be the first parent who loved their kids to kill themselves, I'm sure. I think that suicide is often times an emotional decision, and not necessarily a logical one. Impending divorce/custody battle, the dissolution of his band/career...throw heroin addiction on top of all that. I'm not really pretending to condone nor fully understand his thought processes at this time, just speculating.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
Okay. lol If you want me to look at something, I will. My memory can be tricky. I just don't recall anything that I learned about that being inconsistent with murder. :)
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds OK. I will PM you a site. The phenomenon isn't necessarily inconsistent with murder. It is inconsistent with the decedent being dead or unconscious when the event occurred. That's why, when they find drowning victims still tightly clutching weeds or grass, they know they were *alive* when they entered the water. I said before, you'd have to believe that Cobain was willfully squeezing the barrel as someone else pulled the trigger, if the phenomenon were correctly diagnosed.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak Having read that, there is a HUGE problem with Hartshorne's report. Rigor mortis lasts 24 to 48 hours. Considering, officially, Kurt was found 3 days after he was killed, it is not possible that his hand was gripping the shotgun so tightly his fingers had to be pried off.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds Well, I've read that the speed that it onsets, and the time that it takes to release, are dependent upon many factors. I've read that rigor generally takes around 3 days to release, which is right around the time Kurt was found. You'd have to think that Hartshorne was grossly incompetent to make such a blunder.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds Really, everything I've read about cataleptic rigidity attests to the fact that it is very forensically significant in showing what the decedent was physically, willfully doing at the exact moment that they died. To believe the murder theory, you'd have to believe that either Hartshorne is lying, is incompetent and misdiagnosed the phenomenon, or that Kurt was consciously squeezing the barrel while someone else pulled the trigger.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak I'll admit that on that score, I cannot sort out the truth.
But for me it always goes back to the amount of heroin/morphine PLUS Valium...which compounds the effects of heroin, in Kurt's blood.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds The 1.52mg/L blood morphine level of Cobain is extreme, I can't argue with that. But, from what I have read, the only thing which precludes the notion that Cobain was able to function with that level of heroin is simply that no other case is on record with someone having shot themselves with a similar level. To me, it's not necessarily that that it CAN'T happen, just that it HASN'T happened, *on record*.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak Over the years, Tom's received calls, emails and in-person talks with thousands of people...including health care workers and junkies. They've all agreed that no one can do anything after a dose like that because they nod off immediately.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds Maybe you're right. Thing is, we really have no idea exactly how much heroin Kurt was using, or how regular a basis he actually used. There's a quote from Kurt in Azerrad's Come As You Are, where Kurt about shooting a hundred dollar's worth of heroin in one shot, and "not even feeling it, hardly." He said he couldn't quantify that in terms of grams, just the cost. Maybe he had an abnormally high tolerance built up? Cadaveric spasm would seem to attest to that being the case.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak When Kurt went to rehab, there was no sign of recent heroin use. When Kurt was on his final tour, no one said he was doing anything but water. The doctor who saw him in Rome found no narcotics in Kurt's system. After Kurt received medical attention for his stomach, I don't believe his habit was nearly as big as everyone said it was. Heroin doesn't build up in the blood. It's processed out pretty quickly. Kurt would have had to have been using VERY heavily towards the end, and
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds Heroin leaves the system after about 3 days. All the Rome incident shows is that perhaps it had been that long since he shot up. I've heard the story about Kurt not having signs of heroin use when he entered Exodus, but why would a busy drug rehab treatment facility admit a patient who showed no signs of use or withdrawal? Accounts if his use vary from person to person. We have no real way of confirming what his actual habit was.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak to be able to handle 3x the lethal amount for hardcore users of average size. Kurt was underweight, when he died.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds Again, I've read DMDPT, so I understand all the implications about his weight, and the research being bereft of comparable cases to Cobain's. I stand by my original comment that there really isn't anything which scientifically precludes the notion that a person can build a tolerance to that level; it's simply never been shown, *on record*. Cataleptic rigidity, on the other hand, HAS to occur as a direct result of a person WILLFULLY contracting their muscles when they die.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak Willfully? I thought it was a spasm. Those don't occur willfully, as far as I know. I thought it was cause by brain signals due to trauma. I know I've had a gazillion muscle spasms and there was nothing willful about any of them.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds The term "cadaveric spasm" is sometimes used to refer to 2 different phenomena, for some reason. One is an actual postmortem "spasm" caused by electrical impulses in the body after death. The one we are referring to also goes under the names instantaneous rigidity, instantaneous rigor, and cataleptic rigidity. Would you like me to PM you a few sites?
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak I'm pretty well convinced, because it supports murder, that the spasm happened at the instant of death. Anyone could have held Kurt's hand on the shotgun, which I'd have done to try to get his prints on it. :) I have read about it. And seen pictures. And talked to my detective friend (who is not Tom Grant) about it.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds No, you're simply misunderstanding the phenomenon, how it occurs, and what it is indicative of. If someone held his hand while he were unconscious, his body would simply go through a stage of primary muscle relaxation, and you would not find the same firm grip of the weapon. I've really tried explaining this to you in a number of ways. It is not a "spasm" in the sense that you are accustomed to thinking of the term. It occurs because of ATP deletion, from contraction.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak ATP depletion, not "deletion". My bad.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak i know what you mean - why there were no fingerprints on the gun. But why were no fingerprints on the pencil, which Kurt wrote the so called suicide note? and the "suicide not" was not a real-suicide note - instead the last 4 lines - and these 4 lines were written in an absolutly different hand writing.&like Goddess4Winds said, there exists these page of pracitice writing in CL´s bag&someone practiced Kurts hand writing.There are so many obviously facts, that the story CL told
catinhas77 10 months ago
@catinhas77 OK...this is clearly something that a lot of people have a difficult time grasping. I'm begging your pardon, but I must interject that cataleptic rigidity does quite a lot more than simply offer a sound forensic explanation for the lack of finger prints on the shotgun. It is the phenomenon that Hartshorne observed which gave him sound forensic reason to believe that Cobain was neither dead nor incapacitated at the moment he was shot. I can PM you the same sites that I gave Goddess...
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak Why are you still talking about this when, according to the report you sent me, there should have been NO sign of cadaveric spasm since it would have diminished with the rigor mortis within 48 hours of death?
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds From where are you getting the idea that it would be gone in 48 hours? I've read on several sites it can take up to 3 days...
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak On the site you sent me to.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds You mean where it says "It lasts for two to three days in temperate regions"? The pathologist resides and works in Jamaica. The onset and duration of rigor differs based on climate and humidity. He offers speed and duration of onset for both his own climate, and temperate climates.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak No. It said 24-48 hours. Are you talking about the same site you showed me? It's the only one I looked at. I can understand 2-3 days in temperate regions. Not in Seattle and not around the time Kurt died.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds 2-3 days is what the site I directed you towards says. Dr. Dinesh Rao's Forensic Pathology online. Are you sure you read the same page? It had the header: "Muscualar changes". And Seattle IS in a temperate region, between the poles and the tropics.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak Ah. That's right. (You'll have to excuse me and my sleep deprivation.) Now you need to tell me what that means for an oceanic climate zone, since you seem to want to stick to this point.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds Temperate Zone: the area or region between the tropic of cancer and the arctic circle, or between the tropic of capricorn and antarctic circle. Did you even read the site that I directed you towards, Goddess?
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak The entire US is within in the temperate zone. Within that, there are other zones...ie, arid and oceanic, for 2...meaning the climate in Louisiana is not the same as the climate in Arizona and bodies within each will decay differently when exposed to the elements. (Please, don't insult my intelligence.)
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds Who was insulting anyone's intelligence? Chill, girl. You, even by your own admission, were confused about "temperate zones", and then I asked if you had read the site. I hardly called you stupid. And, yes, all of North America is in a temperate zone. Speed of rigor onset, and the shortest durations of rigor are in very hot conditions. Seattle was in the 50's during the time Cobain's body was found...
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak I had just agreed with you, and asked a question in relation to the information to which I'd just agreed. Then you gave me information...about which I'd just agreed and asked again if I'd read the article. Yeah. That's insulting. But I'm generally fair so I'm overlooking this.
Without rereading our conversation, how is that Kurt's hand was pried from the shotgun, yet no fingerprints were obtained from it AT ALL? Don't you find that odd? Not even a little bit?
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds Not really. Again, they found prints, they were just smudged. The act of prying his hand off the gun might've even contributed to that in some way, I simply don't know. I've also considered the possibility that the recoil of the gun caused it to twist in his locked "death grip", thereby also offering an explanation for the port facing the opposite side? Just a guess, again. Seems plausible, but I don't have the education Hartshorne/others did...
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak Have you never seen the pic of Kurt goofing around with Dave and Krist where he's holding a rifle in his mouth? The shotgun was staged exactly like that photo...inverted.
Do you know when I first saw that photo...minus Krist and Dave? The week of Kurt's death. NO ONE but Courtney would have released a photo like that because it was in extremely poor taste yet it supported the ever-increasing lies she was feeding to the media.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds Ok..I've seen that picture...doesn't mean the shotgun was "staged". Hartshorne concluded it was anything BUT staged, and it also offers a photographic reason to believe that Cobain might've performed the act in reality as he had mimed in jest...or maybe just coincidence. Courtney lies to the media, I won't argue that, but now we're getting off topic: Cataleptic rigidity.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak There is nothing in the autopsy report that concludes suicide.
A cadaveric spasm that happens at the time of death only means that a body is still alive when trauma happens. It does not mean a body is conscious. Or did I miss that in a report. Spasms even happen after death, as the body continues to shut down during brain seizures, as I understand it.
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds There are 2 different phenomena that are referred to as "cadaveric spasm" in the medical community, for whatever reason, so I know that this point can be confusing. The spasms that happen postmortem are different and separate from cataleptic rigidity. "The muscles that were contracted in life become stiff and rigid immediately after death without passing into the stage of primary relaxation."
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds Also, we don't have the autopsy reports...as far as everything I've read, the only thing that separates Cobain's death from any other gun suicide involving a victim under the influence is his reported blood morphine level, and that is another conversation altogether, as well...
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak I'm fairly certain I read about Kurt's death being due to perforating gunshot wound to the head. That would have been from the autopsy report.
And refresh my memory, please. What is it you want to say about this cataleptic rigidity?
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago
@GoddessFourWinds Yes, I agree that we have certain information from the autopsy reports, but we don't have the full autopsy reports, I think that should be a mutually agreeable statement. The presence of instantaneous rigor in Cobain's hand around the barrel of the gun contradicts the assertion that he was in a coma/dead when the gun went off, simple as that...
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak No. It doesn't. Anyone could have held his hand around the barrel. After all, they'd want prints. And there may have been more than one person present. Who knows?
GoddessFourWinds 10 months ago