Israelis Against Occupation - This is how Israelis fuel Hate

[blueboy921]

i dont understand why they have to cut the trees.

i can cry because that

[blueboy921]

and now shut up your fucking mouths, antisemits, and dont put all jews on one opinion !

jews are doing shit, but not ALL of them, do you finally understand, you stupid idiots ?

I hate you so much, you retarted losers ! man i rage so much, thats really not happening a lot ;)

[QUINTUSMAXIMUS]

The Israeli soldiers in many cases would not normally do this unless they were not ordered to do this. Many of them would rather stay home and not do this, but Israel is a military state and there is pressure to do this. Some of the soldiers follow orders automatically and don't think and then later they think after their service that somethings went very wrong. The occupation is also a crime against Israeli young men who would rather do something better.

[frosthazard00]

:((

[poppypaulsarit]

Israhell sucks

[inatsbiako]

man Israel is the land given by God to it's people and how come they did not think about sharing God's gift to them, instead they breed hate towards the innocent Palestinians..i got pity to the man that cried when they pulled the trees...maybe those trees is where he get his iiving...Israelites need to realize that their biggest enemy is just themselves. We don't have enemy if we just learn to love..i guess they forgot Jesus Christ who teaches them love.. so sad

[QUINTUSMAXIMUS]

@inatsbiako Technically, according to Orthodox Judaism you are not supposed to cut down trees during conflict. Some settlers and some in the army know cutting the trees down is the way to take land. It's conquest. The Talmud says that one should not spread hatred of the gentiles on the land against the people. This way of violence, clashing must change. Jews and Arabs must love together in harmony, not violence and hatred. It will change, it will change.

[perrik7]

THIS IS A LIE.

the trees in the video are so young, maybe 2-3 years old, and he say this is his land for 200 years

P A L L Y W O O D

[QUINTUSMAXIMUS]

@perrik7 He said that the land was his family's land for 200 years. How do you know if that is correct or incorrect? At any rate, the video said it's near Bethlehem. Bethlehem is in the West Bank. What about the rights of the Arab inhabitants and their needs. It is unjust to have some soldiers and settlement grab land regardless of what the Arabs want. These are pogroms, essentially.

[perrik7]

@QUINTUSMAXIMUS The Arab law says that the owner of a land is the one that grow something on the land.

if those trees are 2-3 years old, the land was not his 200 years ago.

sorry, but he is a lying

[QUINTUSMAXIMUS]

@perrik7 What are you talking about? Arabs can purchase land without them even having trees on them. People also purchase land. Thus, your statement does not disprove the fact that Palestinians could have owned the land. At any rate, it's next to Bethlehem. What makes it okay for Jewish settlers to make use of the land and not Arabs from Bethlehem? It shows that there are troubling implications for the current order.

[perrik7]

@QUINTUSMAXIMUS If he purchased the land, he must have a proof from the othumans. planting trees is not a proof. otherwise anyone can claim to own the land. Jews and Arabs are bound to tyhe same laws.

what make you so sure that this is his land? because he say so? or because you hate jews and god?

[QUINTUSMAXIMUS]

@perrik7 I hate Jews and God? A pusten fas hilcht hecher. In Yiddish that means an empty barrel reverberates loudly. Which God are you referring to exactly? The God of national Zionism? I don't care about your nationalism. It is not Judaism or the Jewish identity. It's your opinion as a human being only. Do you love the Arabs? It is worthless to speak of hatred of Jews if you don't also speak of love for Arabs and all human beings. I hate the occupation and nationalism.

[perrik7]

@QUINTUSMAXIMUS you assume the land belong to the arab because he say so. this is not how things work in this world.

what nationalism are you talking about?

i believe any man can buy land wherever they want in the world regardless to their religion.

you are nothing but little racist

[QUINTUSMAXIMUS]

@perrik7 Are you so small that you must try to call people racist, chaver? You make me laugh. The Arabs from the West Bank cannot buy land in Tel Aviv and Herzliya, but settlers can buy land, so there is no equality. A law was also passed saying someone doesn't have to rent to Arab Israelis. If you want to talk about racism, talk about that. B'tselem and and Peace Now have all reported that land has been seized by force by the military forces. It's your choice not to see humans there.

[perrik7]

@QUINTUSMAXIMUS you can laugh and bark as much as you want, but you and your 1.5 billion muslims are so weak and there is nothing you can do about the Jewish settlement.

when jew will be able to buy land in the middle east (jordan, syria, egypt, saudi arabia and many more), come talk to me again.

[fissomad]

So sad... so sad....

they are criminals!

[SouthPhillyHooligan]

This may sound strange, but I almost feel bad for some of those soldiers. Just kids, probably conscripts, and probably don't want to do this shit. Those first two soldiers seemed like okay guys who'd probably rather be drinkin and chasing skirt than digging up apricot trees and kicking people off their land. I'm not absolving the IDF and the soldiers of their moral responsibility, just saying there are probably plenty of soldiers who don't want to be doing this, like the refusnik movement.

[Noranapps]

@SouthPhillyHooligan yes there are... look up "breaking the silence"

[tumadoireacht]

to dig out someone else's garden and livelihood to build a sewer for land thieves WOW!

[ZEITGEISTism]

and Israel calls itself a democracy?? WTF?

What kind of people do this to innocent people ?

ISRAEL = THE NEW NAZIS

PALESTINIANS = THE NEW JEWS

[tom360100]

fair enough but many israelis are against their own occupation

[aborigine30]

@tom360100

well then more Israelis should speak out loud and not just say so in the internet.

I know it's difficult and people get harrassed for it but it's the right thing to do!

[DeathNeff]

zionist pigs will rot in HELL.

[josephcderer]

is it any wonder why they hate them...

[T1THUNDERCAT]

you must see "Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land," on google video. The perpetual propaganda absolving Israel as "defending themselves" gets lapped up by the dumbed-down US citizens, who are more concerned with American Idol, Britney Spears, etc., than facing their obligation to learn the truth of what's done in our name around the world. Another must see video of this apartheid is "Occupation 101"

on youtube and full length on google.

for God's sake,

WAKE UP AMERICA!!!

[bananito2]

hate bill policy

the fucking Jews with their ADL are already attacking America

We need to take corrective action and put them in that fucking piece of land without any US aid so they can have a face to face fight with arabs

they will need to fight like a man for the first time

[ZEITGEISTism]

T1THUNDERCAT

are you a jewish american ? if so good for you for your honest and brave Free thinking words and not getting caught up with all the bullshit and manipulations that the israel govt tries to feed everyone about (if you critisise israel your antisemitic ISRAEL is not Jewish it is zionist Thankyou

[hol6guitar]

it's very sad to see the Israeli soldiers laughing and smiling during this heartless act while the arabs cry and are losing everything.

[bananito2]

yeah they smile because they are fucking nervous, They are nervous because they know they are wrong.

even most guys in the IDF know they are blatantly wrong and Israel is utter shit but they are too coward to speak or act against their criminal leaders.

As a result they are facing global backslash and that will bring a real holocaust for them in hands of the world population.

They have been around from thousand years doing evil.

I say enough is enough

[lieberat]

This is INHUMANE . I'm doubting their humanity. No Human with a heart would do such a thing.

If they really believe in God, they should prepare themselves for HELL.

TO the Israelis who helped uphold righteousness. May God bless you.

[icemanroyal]

this is terrible and unacceptable, the Zionists must go

[hnrecreation]

just get over it will ya mate. amal also killed alot of palastinians late 80`s after syrians hand over the p.l.o to the idf.

to me samir geagea is a patriotic lebanese and elie hobeika the burnt in hell. im talking 1400 years ago u idiot check ur hystory

[mingoi313]

1400 years ago? Its wonderful to see that the enlightened people of your ilk base political considerations on the weight of occurences 1400 years ago!

Let me tell you mate, the US didnt exist 1400 years ago, why then are your leaders ready to clean their asses?!

You plonker!

[mingoi313]

On the record, Samir Geagea is a killer and should be locked up for the murders of Dani Chamoun, his wife and young child as well as for the assassination of Rashid Karameh.

It says a lot about the types of heroes and patriots you envisage for Lebanon.

[hnrecreation]

oh man u have alot of informations....good for u . now cut the subject plz

[hnrecreation]

i hope every single mum in israel will suffer wat those women suffered. i hope racist israelis like those to be homeless for the rest of their life. i hope all of those soldiers to run naked in the streets so they can show how strong they really are.

this army is only strong over unarmed civilians.israel and iran are the biggest allies to destroy arabs life and thats for sure.

[mingoi313]

LOL. So now the Iranians and Israel are the biggest allies?

How ridiculous!

You should look closer to home to know who Israel's allies are. Remember Samir Geagea and Ellie Hobeika in Sabra and Shatila?!

[eliran2356]

i'm Israeli and even i support Zionism, i would not support what i saw in this video...they would have

to not destroy the trees and to let it stay as it is, i see that those pepole are good and not terrortists.

when i will be a soldier, i won't do that...

[lieberat]

Good to hear that. Let's hope you stick to your words. I'm against Zionism, as this is the result of Zionism, stettlers take land, build houses and disregards everything else, even NATURE as you see. But I'm for peaceful Co-existance. All living together no matter what race or religion.

Zionism mainly only allows jews. If Zionism changes its concept to allow ALL without discrimination. I'm all for it.

[eliran2356]

i'm against iilegal settlement of Jews in west bank...but also agianst illegal houses of Arabs in Israel...do you undterstand? we have this problems at both lands..

[lieberat]

If you speak truth, I would like to see proof.

Should it be proved, then yes, both have problems.

[eliran2356]

don't worry...

[bananito2]

shut up stupid kike and show the proof gargamel

dont worry what

give us proof

and remember

that you and your "chosen" satan people

cannot cover the sun with one finger

stupid delusional weak cowards.

[warmperson2007]

Nice video! It's good to know what really happens and how it happens. Israelis should stand against the occupation.

[gypsygypsy101]

The video seems very sad; trees uprooted with objection.

However, how much worse was it before the wall was built? Continualy inocent PEOPLE Were MURDERED! not trees but PEOPLE!

[BrownAussieSugar]

What is wrong with you people?...dont israeli people have any fucking compassion? are you that fuckin greedy? I use to hate israel , now its beyond hate....its sorrow

[tristanludlow8th]

No wonder the WHOLE INTERNATIONAL WORLD HATES ISRAEL !!!!

Paybacks a bitch I guess eh Zionist Terrorists?

[fyzawyza]

God sees all. Those who oppress will be given their recompense. Those who strive and persevere in the face of hardship and oppression will be given their recompense.

[allawackjob]

mavet la aravim!!!

[glacier1978]

what the heck! this video is truely sad, israel took way their livelihood, their way of life, their land, and their income... for what???? for a god damn sewer!

[gyshalom]

@glacier1978 the sewer system is for the arabs also,and not all the trees were dug.i

[KnuckleDragger7]

PUT THIS VIDEO IN YOUR FAVORITES!

[gyshalom]

its sad..im israelibut im against the occupation also

[Noranapps]

@gyshalom I'm an arab, and there is no one that I respect more than an israeli or a jewish person standing against Israel's actions. Just like my retired english teacher said "like the germans who helped the jews during the holocaust"

[gyshalom]

@Noranapps no comparison between the hollcaust and the occupation...diggining someones olive trees is not the same as killing 6 million people

[Noranapps]

@gyshalom there is more to the occupation than digging trees.this video is nothing compared 2 half the stuff they do. I don't know if u're argument is about #s because if it is then I dont know the exact # of palestenians who were massacred and I can't exactly say that I noe the exact # of jews who were massacred 2 compare. But what i do know is that just like the jews, the palestenians are forced in ghettos, massacred, victims of chemical weapons & were forced out of their homes based on race.

[gyshalom]

@Noranapps whats the point of even Talking to someone like you..facts dont interest you,truth dosent .you are just comsumed in you hatered..what massacars???? the arabs in the occupied areas had the highest population growth in history..because of medical services provided by israel.their standard of living is higher then in any of the arab countries..you want to talk massacares? check out what the iraqies did to the palastenians afte the fall of sadam..

[Noranapps]

@gyshalom hmm, I guess then the Amnesty International and United Nations FACT FINDING missions are just fantasies written by muslim terrorist groups. & That those Israeli human rights organizations are secretly Hamas and anti-Semitic. I love how you just assumed that I'm not a rational person looking for truth and that i am filled with hate. I love how you say that Israel provides palestenians with high living standards better than any arab countries. Cuz I guess the rest of the arab world

[Noranapps]

@gyshalom just live in caves and lock women up in their homes. So what's the point of even talking to someone like me? I'm just so racist right? like I even said "there is no one that I respect more than an israeli or a jewish person standing against Israel's actions". But if you still think that my bias is based on hate, then you should look up: Norman Finklstein, Naom Chomsky, Peace Propaganda and the Promised Land, Amnesty International, Just Peace, B'Tselem, United Nations and Unicef. Peace

[gyshalom]

@Noranapps all those organizations you quate from are very bias.so called amnesty international if funded by the saudis..that great human rights pillar of the world.noam homsky is a radical left winger who just proves the old saying that a lot of jews are self hating.look,im not saying israel is a saint,by far not.but if you look at the real numbers from sources that try to be fair you will judge the numbers for yourself.in 1967 there were 250,000 arabs in the west bank,now

[gyshalom]

@Noranapps there are more then a million.if israel was that horrible as pictured by those organisations you like,wouldnt the population not see such increase?the truth is that im against the occupation because i dont want to deal with these people any more.put a wall between us and let them govern themselfs in the human ways of islam..like any other beautifull human right observing democracies of the middle east..btw,more the a million people were murdered in sudan the last couple of years.

[gyshalom]

@Noranapps where are all the emnesty internationals?

[keolawai808]

I FUCKING hate the fucking isralis jew asses.AND george bush is a fucking queer ass smeller!

[jedirock]

PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP­PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP­PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP­PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPEEEEEEEEEEEEEE­EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE­EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE­EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEC­CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC­CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCEEEEEEEEE­EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE­EEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!! LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL­LLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO­OOVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV­EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE­EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!

For all humankind!

[jedirock]

I cry with you for the trees...

[jedirock]

You Israeli soldiers allowing this shoudl be ashamed!!!

[Nadav34]

Israeli soldiers are like NKVD, Nazis in disguese. Look at their uniforms - nazi like.

[jedirock]

All Palestinians want are to live in peace on the land they have lived on for hundreds of years!! Unite, and end the hate and oppression!! If we do not stop it here, we will soon have the same oppression in the west, will they take your land to build the NAFTA super Highway?? The North American Union is just a stone throw away, if you value your home and way of life, do not let this war on terrorism continue, it is false, it is a lie, a lie to make money and steal land and resources.

[wegonhavefun]

buddy let me tell you something....you are probably not educated at all so i will give you a lesson...the palestinians will continue to suffer until they get ALL OF PALESTINE..its about fighting for what is yours...and its about fighting REAL TERROR...so go read some books and get a life...or a new brain i mean

[Kohl93]

normally i'd like to say something here. it takes a lot for me not to know what to say about a video i've seen. but this video has done that. i just don't know what to say.

[andresvillamil]

The video says it all. Stop the AIPAC from pushing the U.S. Congress to support this Genocide.

[redelman431]

Iam angry at olmert because of this political suicide he is commiting for Jewish people. Since many people in the world are too stupid to distinguish Israel's secular government from Jewish people, if this action keeps up it will anger the whole world and start another holocaust. Israel has a right to exist but not with that kind of reputation. I hope people in Israel will vote for a leader that will be able to control terrorism without violating international laws and human rights.

[bluevoltaire]

Zionism is not only Racism but stupidity. Zionism was crated devised Freemasons and promoted by the Rothchild family.Down with Masonic Zionism and long live my Hashem Yahweh..@!

[annorv]

Israeli's are starting to realixe how rutal and hateful the occupation of the West Bank really is. Finally! It is about time and hopefully the rest of the world will follow suite

[omaromari]

@annorv if only that was true... a late 2009 poll showed that the majority of israeli's support the expansion of jewish settlements on occupied land...

says a lot... doesn't it...

[minstral2]

My father fought against oppression and freedom from tyranny in World War 2. It grieves me to see that the Israeli nation does exactly to the Palestinian people what happened to the Jews of Europe. I wonder what would come to mind in the soldiers who died back then to see they died in vain. They fought, so that all men would be treated equal, free of oppression and tyranny.

[minstral2]

Maybe it was a very bad mistake for Britain and the USA to create Israel in Palestine...I for one am ashamed of Israeli actions of Oppression and tyranny, how can I support a country that commits unspeakable crimes? What ever happened to sharing the land with everyone? Doesn't everyone just want to live and enjoy his or her family?

[minstral2]

Maybe it was a very bad mistake for Britain and the USA to create Israel in Palestine...I for one am ashamed of Israeli actions of Oppression and tyranny, how can I support a country that commits unspeakable crimes? What ever happened to sharing the land with everyone? Doesn't everyone just want to live and enjoy his or her family?

[minstral2]

Sorry for the double post...In my view, if the Germans of World War 2 were guilty of War crimes and crimes against humanity, how can Israel not be guilty for their actions against the Palestinian people and their aggressive War in Lebanon? An American friend perhaps?

[minstral2]

Sorry for the double post...In my view, if the Germans of World War 2 were guilty of War crimes and crimes against humanity, how can Israel not be guilty for their actions against the Palestinian people and their aggressive War in Lebanon? An American friend perhaps?

[minstral2]

We sure don't need an American policeman in this World considering the bullying going on and their part in War crimes in Iraq. But an America that arms Israel?...for what?

[minstral2]

Consider that the USA will one day STOP funding Israel...then what? Will Israel make peace with its neighbours? I just might start a drive to cut ALL ties with Israel until they start acting like human beings. I will get a lot of support for this initiative in North America.

There is an economic depression on its way in 2008, will Israel need friends?

[cernoch]

Sionism is racism!

[alemild]

The Palestians pay with their lives and livelyhoods, in the west we pay with our taxation and lack of security.

Israel - we've all had enough, you're not a price worth paying. Freedom for Palestine.

[persianmafia25]

Fuck the Zionism's.

[inverteddouche]

The sooner we stop believing in religious hocus pocus and racial superiority and instead embrace humanity and recognize ourselves as a single race that is the homo sapiens the better off we'd be. All the religious nuts seem to believe their God has given them supreme right to judge others. Be they Malaysian, American, Iranian or Australian. Give it a rest.

[speedi7575]

fuck the sionism

[razelma]

This is morally unacceptable.....

ask a chid

they know whats fairand unfair.

The zionists are unfair..end of.

[surfnstyle2]

was israeli land long before it was muslim...Now they have it and its not muslims anymore. Hasn't been muslims land since 1948.. Just as it wasn't jewish land for 2000 years... land changes hands all the time get over it and your death religion.

[mingoi313]

It's amazing that you hold that land changes hands and also take an absolutist position to ownership in one breath. Your characterization of an entire religion as a "death religion" - consequently its followers, all agents of death - just shows your bigotry; ever wondered why the majority of those being killed by "Muslims" are Muslims?

[NoTengoMiedo]

It's great that some Israelis are reaching out to the Palestinians and working for peace, but I have a question. Where is the Palestinian "Peace Now" movement?

[mingoi313]

The Internet is replete with websites of Palestinian peace movements and Palestinian/Israeli joint ventures.

[mingoi313]

As for where there are on the ground, this is an interesting question. Due to how the Israeli judiciary system works, the activists in videos like the one above, are mishandled, hit and sometimes imprisoned for their actions - going into the West Bank and Gaza violates Israeli law. On the other side, over 8000 Palestinians remain in Israeli dungeons untried, their fate unknown - precisely why these brave Israelis and ISM activists stand along side the Palestinians.

[succmgmt]

What are you talking about? I'm sure the "Palestinian" peace activists are protesting the Hamas attacks on Jewish schools as we speak (right after they finish protesting Hamas' murder of the children of Fatah members, and vice versa).

[mingoi313]

Welcome back succmgmt. Your disappearance after the horrid history class was quite expected. Your comment leaves much to be desired; your likes who know of no other world beyond the one described on ynet however should be excused. You don't know what I am talking because you have been taught to think all Palestinians are blood-thirsty murderers and it shows on every one of your comments you have made on my videos.

[succmgmt]

First things first... What disappearance? What history class? Please elaborate.

Secondly... If my comment leaves much to be desired, than why not refute it? As Rabbi Kahane, (may G-d avenge his blood) would say, "Those who can't debate defame."

Finally... No, I have not been "taught" that all "Palestinians" are bloodthirsty murderers. I simply observed it from their schools and children's TV shows.

[mingoi313]

It is no surprise your memory doesn't serve you well - it is a characteritic that you share with many Kahane lovers. Well the history class in the Hebron video in which you tried to prove us Palestinians didn't exist and animals roamed in the Holy land in the absence of the 'Jewish nation'.

[mingoi313]

One cannot prove a negative fact, but the 'rejoicing' of those who target Israeli civilians reminds me very much of your fellow Kahane lovers eulogizing and celebrating the terrorist Goldstein who killed children. They still do, don't they? Do you?

[succmgmt]

There have been many Hevron videos, and I have proven many times that the "Palestinians" don't exist. You'll have to give more details than that. (And I never claimed animals roamed the Holy land in our absence.)

[succmgmt]

Ahh, yes, I found it. Indeed, I did make some very good points, and it seems I never returned to that video. That's because you posted your response as a new comment, rather than as a reply to mine. Thus, I never received any notification that you responded. My reply will appear there shortly.

[mingoi313]

Apologies for the confusion. We can deal with the history of Palestine on that video. Coming back to this one though, I hope I didn't miss your reply; what are your views on the likes of Goldstein?

[succmgmt]

Apology accepted. Back to Buruch Goldstein (may G-d avenge his blood). As you may have already guessed, I regard him as a hero - and here's why. After the shooting, I publicly, and in many venues, dishonored his memory, by saying he went mad. I had since learned that I was wrong. The fact is he preempted a massacre that would have left hundreds of Jews dead in Hevron and Kiryat Arba. Today, I take every opportunity to apologize publicly for disgracing a man who gave his life to save Jews.

[succmgmt]

During the days leading up to the shooting, Hamas circulated fliers urging Arabs to stock up on food and other provisions in anticipation of a major curfew that was to follow an "operation" which would turn the Jewish holiday of Purim into a Jewish day of mourning. The IDF approached Goldstein (he was the chief doctor in the area) and asked him to prepare extra medical supplies and personnel in anticipation of a large scale attack by Hamas. (cont.)

[succmgmt]

For weeks, the loudspeakers in the Ma'arat Hamachpelah (where the attack happened) were blaring "itbach al Yehud," (slaughter the Jew). On the night before the shooting, Jews had gathered in the Ma'arat Hamachpelah to read the Megilah, in observance of the festival of Purim. The Arabs in the room next door began banging on the door, and yelling "Itbach al Yehud." They got into in such a frenzy, the Jews thought the attack was about to happen. (cont.)

[succmgmt]

All of this build-up very closely resembled the 1929 Hevron massacre, around the same time of year, in which 67 Jew were killed. The next morning, Goldstein went into the room where the Arabs were preparing, and opened fire. Israeli authorities later discovered a cache of weapons hidden in that room. Goldstein himself was chopped to pieces. I presume this was not accomplished with Swiss army knives. The man was a hero. May G-d avenge his blood.

[mingoi313]

Let us look a bit closely at what you have written. To begin with, you clearly try to separate the case of Goldstein from Jewish fundamentalism and anti-Gentile sentiment, like Goldstein refusing to treat Arabs unless it was unavoidable - this is a wise move, and I do not blame you for starting like this. For the account itself, I think you depend on Rabbi Simons piece rather than the intolerant and racist piece by Ginsburgh.

[mingoi313]

Simons in his piece jollies around and makes a mockery out of himself. You only need to look at the footnotes of his book to know the utter lack of objectivity of the man; most of the minutes are based on witness accounts by settlers. What he fails to mention is why even the most prominent members of the settlement, who later testified at the commission, did not narrate his account after the massacre.

[mingoi313]

Rabbi Levinger, whose wife testified, said "the government should instead be condemned [for putting Goldstein] under unbearable mental pressure" Strange isn't it? Why didn't he mention the threat of extermination? Further, Goldstein was a respectable member of the community from Simons piece, I'm surprised why he didn't share this knowledge he had of Arabs having stockpiles of weapons. If there was such a threat, surely more than one person knew about it and was ready to do something about it.

[mingoi313]

With respect even Simons does not claim that Goldstein was cut to pieces, you must be joking! The Arabs were not preparing but praying, that's why most of their bodies had bullets enter from their backs. My dear, please do not use deception or try to rely on the collective ignorance of your audience. The IDF did not find a cache, reports were based on two residents overhearing the forces saying they found 1-3 weapons. If you want to revere a terrorist, do that, but do not try to deceive people.

[ChayimJakob]

First of all, let's get this "Jewish fundamentalism and anti-Gentile sentiment" thing out of the way. I have no doubt you would describe me as well as Buruch Goldstein as fundamentalist. That is, I believe (as did Dr. Goldstein) that all of what you call "Palestine" is ours, and the land occupied in 67 must be annexed and its Arabs expelled or allowed to remain only under strict conditions. I believe we should not give in or compromise one iota on this. (cont.)

[succmgmt]

I also believe this "intifada" can and should be quelled in under a week. I don't harbor any anti-Gentile sentiment per se, but I have don't trust the Gentile world, given the privileges they've heaped upon us through history. As for Dr Goldstein, I've read several accounts from Arabs whose lives he's saved. Anyway, I couldn't blame him if he did refuse to treat adult Arabs, who are after all, involved in a war against his people. Find me an Arab doctor in Hevron, who treats Jews. (cont.)

[succmgmt]

I don't know who Rabbi Simons is, and Ginsburg is a common name. I get my info from various sources such as the unclassified portions of the Shamgar commission report, and personal acquaintances who lived in Kiryat Arba. Notwithstanding your bias against settlers, their witness accounts are legitimate. A lot happened before Purim, and in cases like this, different people may have had access to different info. Only when people begin to compare notes does the full story emerge. (cont.)

[succmgmt]

The same goes for Rabbi Levinger's wife. She may not have known Goldstein responded to the threatened massacre, or maybe she wasn't privy to all the info he was. I didn't say Goldstein had knowledge of Arabs stockpiling weapons. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Anyway, it wouldn't have elicited any response. Sadly, after years of constant threat, the Jews in that area have become desensitized, and close their eyes to the fact that the gov't cares more about politics than protecting them. (cont.)

[succmgmt]

Goldstein was cut to pieces. I was told this by a member of the team that prepared him for burial. Yes, the Arabs were praying. And then they were (or rather, would have been) off to their jihad. Mosques (this room was a makeshift mosque) are often used as the staging grounds for the attack, specifically, because they knew there are no Jews present during praying time. (cont.)

[succmgmt]

If deception was my game, I would simply tow the line about how terrible Goldstein was and that he was an isolated incident. But I will not lie at the expense of his dignity. What he did was right, and I say that despite the reaction it will produce, not because of it.

[mingoi313]

I think the audience will decide for themselves on where you stand. You declare your ownership over the land based on God-given right about 4000 years ago, but more than this, declare no right for people who have lived there for 2000 years. As if God, Himself, far be it from Him, would just displace a nation and leave them in hanging just to clear the place for another.

[mingoi313]

About finding you an Arab doctor who will treat Jews, it's a joke, because as you know the settlements are no go areas for Arabs and secondly, settlers have a mentality like yours, Arabs are devils as you just implicitly said, keep your distance from them is a rule of thumb. Makes it difficult for a profession like that of doctor, no?

[mingoi313]

Between 65-75% of Simons footnotes are from the Commission. Bias against settlers? If they say one thing - on the record - during his funeral and not only months, but a few years after his death, and then turn around and say something else, that is not bias, that is being critical of evidence. But all the viewers are well aware of the extremism of some of these settlers from videos even on YouTube; it'd be worrying for you if the account of "extremists" is the final word on events.

[mingoi313]

With your approach to things, it is not only pre-emptiveness but an infinitesmal hunch seals the deal. So if I happened to visit Israel, just because we had this conversation on YouTube, you may well conclude that I pose a threat to the safety of the Jews and authorise my killing.

[mingoi313]

It's a travesty for someone who has brains like you. This is how it goes for your account: I don't know if they had weapons in the mosque, but just because I think they did, and they went to pray and they "supposedly" tend to attack after prayers, they'll attack tomorrow because we received some Hamas leaflet. So I'll go and kill all the Arabs.' This is a template for how not to make an argument.

[mingoi313]

Finally, Goldstein was not cut to pieces. Go and refer to the documentary record; look at the Commission report. Baruch's brother went to identify his body; look at what he said and don't say something about history just because some dude you know said it. If history was read like that, I don't know how many narratives people would have; it certainly would open the door for questioning the 4000 year old right!

[succmgmt]

The audience can decide what they want, and so can you. I'm not overly concerned with convincing either. Like I told you before, I say what I say despite the reaction it will get, not because of it. Let's remember, I told you my thoughts on the matter, because you asked, not because of a desire to persuade you. Believe me. Don't believe me. It's all the same to me.

[succmgmt]

I declare my ownership over the land is based first and foremost on G-d's promise, 3720 years ago, not 4000). He's the Boss. If you have any complaints, take it up with Him. I do not "declare no right for people who have lived there for 2000 years." As I stated before, they may stay, under certain conditions. And yes, G-d Himself did dictate this in numerous places in the Torah.

[succmgmt]

Moreover, in the case of the Arabs, we are talking of a people who are occupying our land, and have 22 other countries of their own to go to. Additionally, even the most right wing among us believe they can stay if they accept our terms (which are far more generous than the dhimi status we enjoyed under the Arabs).

[succmgmt]

Arab doctors can't go into settlements? Funny, the settlements are filled with Arab construction workers, truck drivers, and other Arab laborers. You are putting words into my mouth, saying I "implicitly" (very loaded word) said Arabs are devils. Any sane person would be wary of a person whose nation is at war with his own. Just to clarify - I understand why Arab doctors wouldn't treat Jews in the settlements. We are at war. My point is the same justification has to apply to Jewish doctors.

[succmgmt]

So Simons quotes the Shamgar commission, ok. I never said he didn't. I simply clarified that I wasn't quoting him. My point about your bias against settlers (let's admit it, you're a fan), was that just because you don't approve of them, that alone doesn't disqualify their witness accounts.

[succmgmt]

As for what they testified at the commission, I caution you, don't completely discount their report, but take it with a grain of salt. Israeli fact finding commissions are known to hide evidence that appears favorable to us "extremists" (In fact it is a crime in Israel to utter a word in Goldstein's defense - I kid you not).

[succmgmt]

The videos of the settlers prove that the worst you can muster on them, is a bunch of kids acting like kids. It pales in comparison to, for example, the friendly gathering outside the Ramallah Police station in October 2000. Besides, I already told you how concerned I am about viewers' conclusions. I don't consider the Jewish residents of Judea and Samaria the final word on events. But if I had to choose the one source that is most credible, I would go prefer them.

[succmgmt]

I didn't suggest Goldstein acted on a hunch. "Itbach al Yahud," coming from the Wakf loudspeakers, a specific announcement by Hamas, an identical warning from the IDF, and a mob of Arabs banging on the synagogue doors and walls, yelling "Itbach al Yahud," is more than a hunch. History has taught us to believe our enemies when they threaten to kill us. If you visited Israel, a sane gov't would not allow you to enter the country. If you did get in, and posed a legitimate threat, well...

[succmgmt]

Your account of my account is completely warped. Here's how my account goes: They have threatened to kill me. Army intel confirms the threat. They have made good on previous promises to kill Jews. They are behaving in the same pattern as previously did when preparing for a massacre, and from the same place commonly used as staging grounds. NO ONE IN THAT ROOM GETS THE BENIFIT OF THE DOUBT. My children's lives come first. It may not be a template for an argument, but it's a template for survival.

[succmgmt]

Goldstein was cut to pieces. The documentary record (the Shamgar Commission), like I said before, must be viewed with skepticism when it comes to info that might lend any vindication to Goldstein. the dude I know saw it first hand, and I believe his account and that of Barry Chamish over the govt's account any day. History is read the way the victor wrote it. My concern is survival, not getting the world to agree with me.

[mingoi313]

This conversation has quickly come down to close upon opinion ridden accounts rather than facts. As I said earlier, the audience will decide and our era, like those before us will be placed before the scale and be judged NOT by opinions but rather by facts.

[mingoi313]

With respect, when the Jews were living in Ghettos and being compared to rats they took refuge with the Muslims. I personally hold many reservations with the implementation of the Caliphate, but even Jewish leaders have professed the safe sanctuary provided to them by the Muslims.

[mingoi313]

Let alone Arab doctors not being able to go into settlements, even representatives from the UN have problems with access to settlements; and this is available on the record. You seem to have forgone the evident inconsistency between the statements by the settlers, and shrouded it by my "bias".

[mingoi313]

Truth, Freedom, Justice etc. are all inevitable realities that human beings aspire towards. The dark annals of human history were always sparked by the Divine leaders, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, who spoke of these values and were practical exemplars of them. We as monotheists, no matter the differences, recognize this; history therefore, whether we like it or not will be judged against these lofty principles.

[succmgmt]

What I state is fact. You can dispute it if you wish, but the question that started all this was what do I think of Baruch Goldstein? You got my answer, and my reasons. I disagree that the audience (I assume by that you mean people in general) will decide based on facts. History is written by the victor, and the masses that are asses will believe it. The consensus is Israel was built on Arab land; it was built as a result of the holocaust; it was given to us by the UN. Yet none of this is true.

[succmgmt]

This will be decided by those involved (i.e., the Jews of Hevron and Kiryat Arba, the Israeli government, the Arabs.) The outcome, of course, will be decided by the Creator of this little piece of real estate, and I'm completely confident He's on my side. The "audience" will do nothing but watch and yawn. If we win, they will say they love us, and were on our side all along. If you win, they will congratulate you, hold a small memorial in our memory, and move on.

[succmgmt]

Yes, Jews sought refuge in Muslim countries. Arabs in Gaza are currently seeking refuge in the Jewish controlled portion of Israel. Not because they like Israelis, but because they prefer them over their vengeful "Palestinian" brothers. Same concept (lehavdil) with the European Jews. Better to be dhimi under Muslims, than a corpse under the Christians. It doesn't prove the Muslims were good or even humane to us. If you disagree, than what say we put Arabs in Israel under the same dhimi status?

[succmgmt]

UN reps have trouble getting into Jewish settlements, because they don't come looking to shower them with praise. They are there with the explicit purpose to cause trouble for the Jews. What puzzles me is not that they can't get in, but rather that once in, they have no trouble getting out. This is not analogous to Arabs who enter the settlements to provide a service. As I stated before (and although I disagree with the practice), plenty of Arabs are employed in the settlements.

[succmgmt]

If you take issue with alleged inconsistencies in the settlers' statements, that's a fair concern (and I believe I already answered you regarding that). When I mentioned your bias against the settlers, I was addressing your point that, "most of the minutes are based on witness accounts by settlers," suggesting the very fact that they are settlers disqualifies them as credible witnesses.

[succmgmt]

Just for the record, please don't count me in among those who "recognize" any divinity on the part of Moses and (lehavdil) Jesus or Muhammad. Moses communicated directly with the Divine G-d, but he himself was human. As for Jesus and Muhammad - nada, zilch, zip, zero, nil. I know you disagree. I just wanted to avoid any misconception that I hold Moses to be a deity, or that I hold Jesus or Muhammad to be anything exalted all.

[mingoi313]

With respect, you are just re-phrasing the points you have made earlier. But two points to clear out here, I suggest that you look at the "Dhimmi" status according to the Islamic tradition and what are the rights afforded to non-Muslims. Secondly, I do not believe Moses, Jesus or Muhammad or any other person or created thing to be a deity. There is only One, Unique Creator and Originator of Existence.

[succmgmt]

Of my six paragraph response to you, 2 points were repeated from earlier: 1) That Arab workers do enter the settlements (which I prefaced with "As I stated before"), and 2) The Dhimi status Jews were relegated to. I repeated that because you seemed to ignore the point the first time. And you ignore it again... (cont.)

[succmgmt]

I admit I don't know the intricacies of Muslim law. But it doesn't matter. Like I said before - and I now repeat for the third time - if it's not that bad (Dhimi status), than let the Arabs of Israel be placed under that same status.

With regard to Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, you mentioned that they were divine. I just wanted to clarify the meaning of that, and that I would never hold Moses in the same realm as Jesus or Muhammad.

[mingoi313]

With respect to your faculty of intelligence, you propose a very foolish ideal. Asking you to implement Islamic rule, is like asking a Jew to rule according to the New Testament which he/she does not believe in and does not regard to be a binding document; the veracity of a system only being a derivative of the authenticity of the textual origin makes your comment farcical.

[succmgmt]

Btw, I looked up Rabbi Simons. WOW! Great guy. Very informative. I shall read his work. Thanks for pointing me in his direction.

[mingoi313]

You're most welcome. Just be sure to go in to his works with an eye that is able to discern the grain from the chaff; having read his work I can tell you there is no shortage of the latter.

[razelma]

This video should be featured....

it says it all.