Origin of Faith - John Frum vs Jesus 1/2

[chrispikeyp]

very interesting thanks

[multiyadayadayada]

Ive spent time in Vanuatu, I am fluent in Bislama and I have spent time in Sulphur Bay with Isaac Wan's people. I can tell you, in storian, it wasn't easy to follow their complicated beliefs, which predate and reacted to our appearance in their world. You have to appreciate their isolation, don't take them for primitive people. Don't take them for fools. They live better than us in the uk, they really, really do. I'm not just romanticising- i appreciate healthcare, education etcetc. still say it

[multiyadayadayada]

Ladies and Gentlemen, please don't believe that this is a valid explanation of the beliefs on Tanna.

There is a lot more to it than this+ it is not fair to impose this explanation. Ironically it itself becomes a false belief!The source Dawkins is using must be the prevalent "authority" - the go-to resource for any newcomer wanting info. The lonely planet guide reads just the same! I can tell you their beliefs are more complex than this video portrays, they believe in many spirits

[unwinsis]

Evolution is a charecteristic of life. To transpose this onto other things, such as religion, is misguided and false. It shows a weakness in logic to say that religion evolves.

[eikons]

@unwinsis It does evolve. Religions gain followers, and more followers means that people "on the fence" are more likely to convert to that religion. Then there's promises that make one religion preferable to another. And finally, religions (along with tribalism) can wipe out believers of other faiths. This way, there is a form of natural selection and hence, evolution. The most successful religion survives, and the weaker ones die out.

[belegulo]

If religion is a cargo cult, then atheists have to believe that there were aliens or humans from the future that we worshiped as gods. However, modern religion is an espiritual system, not a way to get food and medicines.

[himjl2]

@belegulo Of course this is not exactly how the major religions of the world evolved but it does provide a reliable demonstration of how easily tale tales are accepted and quickly become religious belief. Obviously, John From started off either as a fictional story or an outright lie but still manege to be accepted by a significant number of people. The birth of religion is a giant game of telephone.

[belegulo]

However, their faith is on material things. There is a big cargo cult on drugs and sex on our society, in fact.

[StrikaAmaru]

3:27 - Nice skirt XD

[mysql0]

Imagine trying to tell these cargo worshippers that their religions is a load of BS and without evidence and that just having FAITH in the planes doesn't make it true?

They would reject your facts and evidence and call you an idiot scientist since you are challenging their false and deluded belief.

FAITH! Wether Christian or a Cargo Cult - it always works the same!

[winterstellar]

Religion belongs in the stone-age, and I hope we will be rid of it soon.: )

[Oxix999]

Its possible that there were some extraterrestial visits thousands of years ago ...

[JoesephKatana]

@Oxix999 Yes but, as we can see here and in various non third world situations, it doesn't require aliens.

[treasuredroperX]

LOGICAL***

[treasuredroperX]

So if Cargo Cult is the origin of Religion, is it not illogical to think that the natives and stone age people misunderstood a technology that visited Earth thousands of years ago? Is this not the best evidence for paleoseti, a ancient astronaut visitation perhaps?

[Angmarr]

@forester9415

well that doesnt mean that their kids are becoming religious :]

[Angmarr]

@forester9415

I thought the non-religious segment was growing.. not religion..

[yvorfalcon]

You are reading Richard Dawkins' book!!

[sdrawkcabgnipytmi]

"Cult of Christianity"

I love hearing that phrase.

[sugreev2001]

The world can only progress if we get rid of religion and religious nut jobs from all over the world.

[Pomiferous]

@sugreev2001 Progress through elimination of select targets is an interesting concept.

[BIBLEisMARKofBEAST]

The origin of faith, Faith comes by hearing God speak to you like He spoke to Abraham, the father of faith. Today He speaks to us by His Son Jesus through the Holy Ghost. The letter kills but the Spirit gives life. The BIBLE is the MARK of the BEAST.

[andreisalo]

mind blowing! thank you!

[eslubin]

Where the comparison to Christianity falls down is that time and location of Jesus was much more sophisticated in terms of development of civilization. And the people were relatively remote but not extremely isolated as in these island. And their propensity to assign messianic status to John Frum can easily have been borne out of the influence of their interaction with people of the more advanced Christian culture of the time

[jaketheripper423]

Man and the universe were created by God. you atheist get so much joy in calling others fools for having faith in God. but the real fools are people who put their faith in mans own knowledge of the world which is extremely limited. the creator has given us his word so we may know his will for us but you hear the truth and refuse it in ignorance. in one instant God can forgive you and accept you as his own but many of you would rather spend a lifetime too stubborn to give him even one chance!!

[jay4457]

I wish I had a plane and a billion dollars, I would say my name is john frum and fly there and give them cargo

[eslubin]

@jay4457 you can keep the plane, i'll take the bil

lol

[Rcee01]

WWJFD ahahah

[NeroJoe83]

This was one of my favorite parts of 'The God Delusion'.

[iraqifreak]

this is so plain damn weird

[NeroJoe83]

@iraqifreak

"this is so plain damn weird"

.

And eating Jesus isn't?

[iraqifreak]

@NeroJoe83 eating Jesus is just as weird, I never denied that, don't put words in my mouth you!!

[siderespector]

It is a little odd that they can *observe* the similarity of the John Frum cult with the emergence of Christianity, when the events of emergence of Christianity is largely unobservable. In wikipedia, the video claims would be [citation needed] and [dubious - discuss].

[snaphanen75]

I wonder - Why did the US Military never told the poor guys the truth? They're kinda missin' out on the bigger picture

[ArandurKing909]

@snaphanen75 They probably don't know each others language

[sillychops]

@snaphanen75 i thought the same thing .... could of saved the islands economy too

[trjonez]

I love this as well,..but for a different reason. The natives worshipped John Frum and his "stuff",..exactly like the cult religion of Atheism worships the stuff that makes up cult religion of Evolution.

[CaptainUSSEnterprise]

You idiot, neither atheism nor evolution are religions. Your argument is based on a logical fallacy (you assume that they are religions). You are assuming that atheists worship evolution. So any points you make after that (which you seem to think are witty even though they aren't) are rendered invalid. Your probably just another deluded Christian who believes your religion is in any way more logical than this cargo cult.

[trjonez]

All religions require faith. Which requires more faith? The belief there is a Designer or Creator, or that all you see in front of your face, whether through a microscope or telescope just happened by chance? Millions of people armed only with common sense and no self consuming pride wisely look around and see design which leads to faith in the Designer. Even less people have vastly greater faith than that and believe everything just happened by chance. They are known as name calling atheists.

[CaptainUSSEnterprise]

Yes but you missed the point. This is still a logical fallacy because you are insisting that atheism or the theory of evolution are religions, when in fact they are not. That thing you said about everything happening by chance (I assume you were referring to evolution) is also a logical fallacy. A straw man argument, you have no understanding of the theory if you think it implies we came about by chance. The theory of evolution actually dictates the exact opposite of things happening by chance.

[trjonez]

Something from nothing,..Is it easier to believe that nothing,..existing in a pure vacuum, all by itself, created something? Or is it easier to believe a Designer/Creator entered nothing and created something? One does not need near as much faith to believe the latter especially when vast complexity in design is seen in all that is around him. What DEMANDS more FAITH?

Something created BY NOTHING? Or Something occurring through design by a fabricating and assembling Creator?

[NirvanaFan4Life]

@trjonez

So something can't come from nothing... except "God," of course.

It's this type of logic that keeps man from making the type of progress it should have by now. No one knows the details of the origin of life, only it's progression (i.e. evolution). Religious zealots just call that origin "God" and claim enlightenment, lol.

[trjonez]

@NirvanaFan4Life A truthful honest comparison of what the faithful zealots of evolution have blessed mankind with vs. those that had/have their faith rooted in Jesus. Evolution? - dictatorial brutal Communism Socialism , Marxism , Paganism etc., all with murderous miserable failed pasts. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Polpot, 100 years = 148 million dead (minimum)

Jesus? Hundreds of scientific inventions, art, music, hospitals, colleges and other societal blessings too numerous to mention.

[tayzlor]

@trjonez ; Truthful, honest?

ahaha yes, don't mention the countless killed through lack of science and reliance on faith and dogma - ie Crusades, the Inquisition, Black Death, Missionaries infecting tribes, no condoms, etc etc. Its not religion or no religion that makes man do bad things, its man itself. Some real enlightenment and real unbiased scientific research will lead to learning that religion is man made. Jesus? What about Mohammed or Buddha? Both also contributed, all 3 can't b right

[trjonez]

@NirvanaFan4Life

The billions of years required by evolution would necessarily require AT LEAST hundreds of thousands of transitional life forms. But there are none. What you DO see is an abrupt appearance of all the same life forms you see today as well as those that have gone extinct and they all suddenly appeared during a relatively short time span. This is what would be expected if they were CREATED.

Even if you were only to discuss the evolution of man,..there should lots of his stuff

[trjonez]

@NirvanaFan4Life

Even if you were only to discuss the evolution of man,..there should be an enormous amount of his 'stuff' that would be 'left behind' to prove his longtime existence,..but there is exactly the amount you would expect if he were a relatively short lived form of life. This fits with man being CREATED not long ago unlike the religious zealots of evilution claim.

[CaptainUSSEnterprise]

Also even if it did mean that everything happened by chance (which it doesn't) then that would be more logical than a creator. Because you would then have to explain how this creator came into existence (and saying it always existed is not a valid answer). So you have not done anything to solve the mystery. In fact you have only added to it. All you are doing is trying to solve a mystery with another mystery which gets you nowhere.

[Slatius]

let me to onto you, that I've never met an atheist that didn't believe in evolutionism

[ArandurKing909]

@Slatius Onision

[AtheistxNinja]

I love this. Accept all the "cargo" of a cult that moves in. Then they become messianic cults. That is exactly the same as Christianity.

[Tladams1986]

pagan evolution  watch?v=vtC-vU7ufeg

[Jenfucius]

John Frum and Jesus is the same person.

...and they will return in a intergalactic space ship.

[rambydave]

I swear about 95% of youtube comments are idiotic and lacking in sound logic

[bhowie777]

Ahh no fat people wow. They are all in great shape.

[andrewduhmetroid]

it makes perfect sense but i feel bad for those poor natives

[Unbannable]

when these guys worship john frum, they are nuts, when people worship jesus in the west, they are anything but crazy

[drandersw]

This is the most intelligent religion I ever heard of. It even beats belief in Elvis. These people have actually witnessed the stuff they believe in.

[JivinforFun]

funny because it's true

[Ramshobraja]

Saibaba is a similar cult to Jesus or Muhammed, and to an extent Buddha.

[currysteph]

this isnt a religion its a cult of personality

[thisisaguy]

What exactly is the difference in your mind? I ask, in your mind, because there is no difference. These people have misinterpreted the world and as such have formed a system of beliefs to explain it. This is the basis for most of the worlds religions/cults. There really is no difference between this and a religion such as Christianity. The only appreciable difference being that, unlike Christianity, the John Frum religion has historical evidence for the story.

[3L3M3NTO]

it is a religion. this is hwo it starts.

[currysteph]

Dawkins is a hypocrite .  he even stated and I have the video proof that he believe that life was intelligently designed...he just thinks aliens did it.

[thisisaguy]

No, that is not what he believes. He made a point that you could make the argument that this is how it came about but then you would still have to answer the question of where the aliens came from. He admits that he doesn't know how life on this planet began but sees the need for exploration and not the belief in a god.

Quote mining is ridiculous and tantamount to lying.

[GLADish85]

True, true... Hate that bollocks. But it`s still better then war ...

[ovar9k]

The people of Tanna say that John Frum is a black man and will one day be the king of America.

I wonder if they'd think Barack Obama is their beloved prophet John Frum.

[acsmashing]

I'm reading this part right now :)

[BassPhat]

religion is a bad joke in the 21st century, check out what happens to kids in nigeria under the name of christ, search youtube witch children

[ANewNormalcy]

Lessee...

AIG had rituals that fabricated wealth.

Then, it all went FUBAR.

Now, let's have faith and restore our economy.

[jvilla21]

Im going to vacation there and im taking my iphone.

[insightforlife]

This is Crap, Christianity is not a Cult!

[tornatic021]

is it not?.. i guess your in it.

[arrakkis666]

Cargo Cults! When anyone says to me that it's better to believe in "god" then not, just incase or there is no harm in believing. This is just another rebuttal to add to the list. The time, energy and hope that is wasted on religious nonsense is so tragic.

[arrakkis666]

insightforlife; It's never a cult to it's members, it's the "truth". But, it's a cult all the same. Sorry

[305pride]

I am John Frum.

[JamesD567]

Go fuck yourself John Frum.

[305pride]

lol

[princessannikki]

amazing! n_n

[shubidubar]

TGD is a brilliant book

[Angmarr]

@shubidubar

Yes.. for lay people. It's not a book of thorough scholarship. Dawkins is an excellent biologist, but he speaks as an ameteur in all the other areas. Check out the books that are released to expose just this..

[WillShakespeare2007]

@Angmarr - A "lay person?" You mean as opposed to an expert in the invisible cloud man that no one has ever seen or met, knows where he came from or any other actual facts about. Oh I see that kind of expert.

[Angmarr]

@WillShakespeare2007

rofl, no, I mean real theologians who study the texts for a living the same way that Dawkins study the human body - or even real philosophers or historians who actually have a formal education, training and expertise in their fields. If you read properly what I said how can you POSSIBLY think I meant God? No offense, but seriously...

[WillShakespeare2007]

@Angmarr - Oh so God is not relevant to religion. Thanks for the heads up. "Dawkins study the human body", because that is what evolutionary biologists do is it "study the human body." To quote and idiot I recently communicated with "no offence, but seriously?"

[Angmarr]

@WillShakespeare2007

uhm yeah whatever, sry but i dont debate people who dont know how to listen

[WillShakespeare2007]

@Angmarr - Listen to what? You think an evolutionary biologists "study the human body" and that you need to be theologian to not notice the total lack proof for the hundreds of invisible Gods that man has created for his own ends across the centuries. I see your God has been busy killing people in Japan today, he must have needed a day off from giving babies aids in Africa.

[Angmarr]

@WillShakespeare2007

Yes, biologists DO study the human body, and since you are so hooked on proof then I assume you are an agnostic since this position is the only one that is proper for scientists to take since both theism and atheism make claims outside science. You have to believe on the basis of something other than what we perceive as proof that there is a/no God.

Regards to the Japan comment, it's so stupid I'm not even gonna comment on it

[shubidubar]

rofl

[richardmullins44]

It's all explainable as examples of "behaviour games", whether it be the behaviour of an accountant, a tennis player, or John Frum.

[richardmullins44]

John Frum cult is also a kava cult. Kava is a drink made from the root of a plant in the pepper family. It is very important in Vanuatu culture. John Frum people believe that kava gives them contact with a world of spirits.

[nota2cdtime]

The idea of a culture cult is what James Kunstler applies to the hope for a new source of energy to replace oil; perhaps to continue consuming as we do.

[jbz3]

And if there were aliens looking down at us, they'd be saying, "See, that's why we don't go there anymore."

[ise1880]

umm, i fell asleep after the first 30 seconds, sorry

[Rhettsta]

it's okay it's hard for some people to learn new things, your special :)

[billybobthortansbro]

NO, I AM JOHN FRUM.

[Happinno]

all we need now is another John Frum and we'll have a holy trinity.

[Happinno]

I am John Frum

[karlgluck]

who is john galt?

[isaacsace]

What is this? Richard Dawkins stuck on that atheist badge and raised you to a higher level consciousness. Gleaming with the pride of that badge you can now laugh all others with complete arrogance, since you are more intelligent and rational? Firstly, I am not a creationist and I accept evolution. My point is that we are more than matter or some kind of ingenious computer. Here we are forming accounts of this world and talking about true beliefs and not just chemically generated reactions.

[TheClassicalLiberal]

naturalism is definiteley a position that falls more in line with reality than supernaturalism.

[scottklarr]

I find it funny how whenever someone questions religion, they are automatically labeled as being snobby or rude. What makes this especially funny is that in the light of evidence that these people "rudely" bring, the best comeback that can be made is "omg, he is so disrespectful! therefore everything he says MUST be wrong"

"My point is that we are more than matter"

Do you have any evidence for that claim or is that just wishful thinking? EVERY bit of real evidence there is disagrees with you.

[emancoy]

Just a question, how are these people today?

were they educated to show were those cargo were coming from and how they were made?

[Mescalitospoke]

When creationists are educated about evolution, geology, and astronomy, do they cease to believe the world is six thousand years old?

[Greywyn7]

Not if they deny everything they're educated about.

[emancoy]

yes they will, if they fully understood what they have learned.

Unless they deny everything they learned.

before this young earth creationist vs evolution exploded in the media a few years back, I was already on it back in the late 80's. I learned about the sciences and I changed my mind because I have realized how mindnumbingly wrong we were.

[emancoy]

Similarly, in the OT, god is potrayed as a jeloused god, accepts burt offerings, wrathful, Then the NT comes, and have this obvious changes made by jesus.

Even christianity, evolved.

[pisscunt]

Jesus was very jealous too. In Matthew, he says 34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

[FactVsReligion]

All hail John Frum :0

[ManicEightBall]

WWJFD?

[thruthem]

What would a Jesus freaks do?...

..."Hello headquarters? Send Jesuits with swords and bibles".

[rootvalue]

@thruthem I think you mean, "Hello, headquarters? Please send votebots and flag the video with a DMCA claim!" :P

[ManicEightBall]

What would John Frum do?

[Dahudrox]

ALL RELIGION IS A LIE!!

[isaacsace]

All religion is a lie? Im sorry, but if there is no god then life and all that exists is simply absurd. Really, here we are making claims on concepts such as truth when 'mind' merely evolved and thoughts and feelings consist of electrical pulses in our brain?

[thruthem]

This is why an imaginary invisible agent seems so natural to you:

watch?v=Vse2E4_7Y7s

[Dahudrox]

LOL!!! ....you're a creationist!! HAHAHA!!! You people make me laugh!!! Don't you believe in the the electric pulses in our brains? what next, Do you believe in tooth fairy as well???? LOL!!!! You are biased towards your religion and that's the only reason that the THEORY (and not a very good one either) of ID/creationism even exists! ....Don't believe all the hype! It's a lie to keep you paying your tithe!

[soylentgreenb]

"Im sorry, but if there is no god then life and all that exists is simply absurd."

Does it get less or more absurd if you add a god?

[TheClassicalLiberal]

absurd? Just explore nature. Its not pointless. God or no God, its amazing.

[jedus1]

You're an idiot. Get Cancer and go to "Your" Heaven, please? Take your relatives with you, as your mental illness may be contagious and they may be carriers.

P.s. If there is a god, Fuck yours.

[tyranid0222]

Oh yes, there is no thinking without god, how in his mighty name can electrical pulses possibly conceive thought. The concept is just unimaginable it is much easier to think of a god doing all of the thinking for us so we dont have to. You rule Isaacsace!!!!

[formless777]

I have actually been to Tana and spoken with the John Frum worshippers. Now, to be fair to the cult, the arrival of the US troops during WW2 as the Guadalcanal fight hotted up, did seem as close to an apocalypse as most of them could imagine, so it is a surprisingly good prophecy imo. The local volcano on Tana is called Matum and is sprays waves of fibre glass over the island no and again. They call this "hair blong Matum". Very bad for one's health.

[mironowak]

A total detachment of religions from 21 century reality coupled with a pathetic bickering between/within religions will bring their ultimate demise. While the religious waste their time arguing whose "god" is right let us enjoy life.

But in the name of human empathy we must not forget about people who are oppressed or in need. One day you might need their help. Empty, delusional prayers can never replace a real constructive humanitarian help social solidarity and universal values.Tx