P8 - D'Souza vs. Hitchens - Freedom Fest 2008

[Gazdo01]

About the parallels of the Virgin Birth in christianity with other religions...

I don't have time to debunk them all.

I'll just say Horus was never born of a virgin. Isis was NOT a virgin.

This demolishes the whole argument Hitchens makes...

[senortonyful]

@Gazdo01 You haven't demolished the argument at all. The fact of the matter is is that virgin births and miraculous births are wide spread throughout all religions. I'm aware that some don't think Isis was a virgin, though there are disputes to that claim. It's all completely irrelevant, what matters is that the claim of divinity by Horus, and many others, is often accompanied by a miraculous birth story. It's the same with Alexander the Great, his mother wasn't a virgin but his birth was divine

[ibreakkidslegs]

hilarious how hitchen's glasses seem to be crooked

[pillblooms]

Christians suffer natural consequences for their sins. If one cheats on his wife, he is forgiven yet perhaps divorced. This is why sin (missing the mark) is warned against. -Bad teachers, preachers, parents, and people (Charlemagne etc.) who use the popularity of the established church to gain support are not Jesus and do not follow his teachings.The parable of the wheat and the chaff (weeds) explains that there are many in the "church" who are not true Christians.

[slaughtersaults]

wow an hour long Hitchslap

[greatnewsnetwork]

Hitchens acts like the north end of a south bound mule. I guess the word nice is just not in his vocabulary. Can't you dissigree and not be mean.

[digbystills1967]

@greatnewsnetwork  note the tone of voice d'souza uses to connote his opponent's ideas: he makes his voice dopey. do you call that "nice"?

[eleuthromania]

Hitchslap!!

[Mothaafrica]

They are both intelligent people.....None of you who are calling Dinesh an idiot could stand and debate with him for one minute. Hitchens is great and he's heard it all so he has comebacks for whatever is thrown at him. That doesnt make Dinesh dumb or stupid. Respect to both for showing that open dialogue or debates can help people see more of the picture from different angles then to be stuck in whatever rigid ideology we've come in with.. Peace to all

[tugboat2030]

@Mothaafrica I think some of us could debate Dinesh or Hitchens. But Dinesh's previous argument was his weakest yet.

[ozbandit]

Hahaha too funny, I love how Hitchens keeps on schooling this bubbling idiot in logic 101

[ominbnd]

What an intellectual landslide Cristopher offers. Why do people like D'Souza continue to think that their arguments hold water against such damning EVIDENCE (or many cases, NO evidence)?

[VvDOPAMEANvV]

my glasses look like Hitchens'

[RobGOQ]

D'Souza actually makes some good points -- he strikes me a little bit as coward who advocates harshness upon others (e.g., "let's horsewhip him," "let's greet the Islamists with light artillery," etc.) as an expression of his latent fear.

That aside, Hitchens is great to listen to.

I felt in total though that this was a debate that focused on each aiming to win a lot of isolated points and was kind of disorganized and did no address the broader picture.

[pelonisas]

Poor Christopher doesn't get it. Jesus teaching on "not taking a thought for tomorrow" or C S Lewis's statement, which, insidently I agree with, IF Jesus was not God he would be a very bad person for saying the things he did, only if he is who he says he is can he be considered absolutely right.

[bonfirejovi]

i never though i would find a worse debater then christopher 'ramble' hitchens but d'souza truly is entitled to that crown. he is the worst offender of non sequitur i have ever seen.

[MrMohjong]

Dude I really believe that this is the worst beating D'Souza has ever got.

[subledtriani]

Hitchens aruments are quite harsh and could have done in a different way with more respect for Christianity. I am saying this as a non-christian guy. Yes there are or might b some false claims in Christianity as in any other religions but Christianity has many good things. So take the good things and leave the bad ones behind. Christians arguably contributed to the humanity more than ppl of any other religions.

[Floridanon407]

@subledtriani Christians may have made great contributions, ironically few and far between are their great contributions to things such as the sciences were they achieved through means of a theistic approach

At the dawn of the Enlightenment, Reason and Rationality became greater virtues in the minds of the learned over credulous faith as well as an intellectual approach based in the naturalism, opposed to the supernatural.

In a few hundred years of this non-theistic ideal we went to the moon

[leporidus]

Reason is an emergent property of complex enough nervous system. And this property can all to easily get damaged and destroyed by drugs and diseases.

[shieldsff]

The 'vicariousness' of the crucifixion death of the Christ is neither uncommon nor repulsive- vicarious deaths even happens now on a dailey basis among are own fellow country men. Consider simply the soldier at war who willingly chooses to surrender his life (say on a grenade) to protect his fellow soldiers & to achieve the goal of the mission. Jesus' goal & unique claim is that he died vaciously to redeem repentent humans of their sins.

[VarialProductions]

That may work with humans. But that a God had to die to save something we did?

Thats FUCKING RETARED

and you know it!

[shieldsff]

Hitchens is factually incorrect and misleading in his assertion that the main witnesses were females ("stupid, hysterical & illiterate" in his words).... Rather the women were the first witnesses and later numerous people of both genders interacted with the resurrected Jesus. Jesus said the proof of his claims lies in his resurrection. Sadly, Hitchins distorts and superficially conflates throughout this rebuttal

[shieldsff]

Hitchens is not convincing though, in his insistence on the 'fakery ' of the story (i.e., certain, limited accts). He minimizes and obscures the fact that prior to the canonization of the NT, Christians were violently prosecuted and murdered throughout the empire for HUNDREDS of years. The letters were widely circulated and copied. Christians DO NOT insist that every detail is perfect, merely the major doctrines & teachings

[mammers11]

D'Souza can't touch this

[Munro1Man]

For the record I am not some racist bigot who blindly thinks we are the greatest country on earth in all respects. Maybe at the moment we are not the best at much !! Pride in our groups is a normal state. I am proud of my town football team, my area of the country, my country, Europe and finally of being a fellow human with everyone else. Some goon made a comment about my English and I reacted which seems to have started a witch hunt. Peace.

[poobah103]

About your English what?

[Munro1Man]

About my English, as in language.

[waytohell2]

oops i meent to say im an athiest

[Munro1Man]

Christians are not the majority, fool.

[PowerAndPerception]

Lots of Criminals must have been interested in the idea of being forgiven for their sins. Probably game some of the most evil people a lot of comfort.

[esauofrensfal]

Certainly, especially when you consider how many SS officers were confessing Catholic (I've heard numbers from 90%-50%-10% of the SS elite, but that's not really important).

Forgiveness is not easy to garner. The notion that god forgives makes that undeservedly easy.

[oskitarrodriguez]

Hitchens conclusion is the true statement of a person who believes in the necesity of abolishing everything that is against all kinds of human liberty

[sonofcohen]

Hitchens always seems to have this elitist belittling of his opposer. I think Dinesh makes a good argument and Hitchens starts off with mocking him. Reminds me of Mormons who poke fun of their opposers in order to side step the real argument.

[observer75]

Well said, jgraham97mc.

[observer75]

Hitchens chooses his own conclusions which are usually reaching and then tries to present them as absolute. His way or the highway. Gotta make it work! Make it work, Hitchens!

[pulinap]

Don't know where Hitchens got his facts about Buddhism, but with all due respect to him what he says about the birth of Gautama Siddhartha is BOLLOCKS!!!

To begin with Buddhism is an atheistic philosophy not a religion. There is no belief system or scriptures, hierarchy or an organization in Buddhism. Buddha was born under a tree through normal birth procedures and is a human- not a god, nor a son of a god not a prophet either. Not only that Siddhartha got married, had sex and had a child!!

[Munro1Man]

Normal??? Did he not stand up straight from the womb and walk ?? Isn't the Dali-lama his reincarnation? Yeah sounds normal to me!!

[pulinap]

Here we go again, another ignorant who got the wrong end of the stick!!

Mate, if you want to learn about Buddhism try reading Pali canon, see if there is anything about Mr. Lama or any B.S. you mentioned(oh I forgot you might be one of those monolingual bogans who cannot speak other than English) - BTW Lama is a prick not a Buddhist

If you are gullible enough to believe the fairytales of King Arthur or Ramayana or Bible for that matter it's beyond my control. There's no cure for STUPIDITY

[Munro1Man]

Cannot speak ANYTHING other than English. There is some help since yours is so bad. I dont believe in any of those things, they are all stupid belief systems.

[pulinap]

Now we are in to semantics eh - My English may well be BAD, but at least I m not monolingual like you and have enough intellectual capacity to distinguish between a religion from a philosophy.

Hitches and you on the other hand, in your typical British arrogance think that Atheism is a western creation - where in fact WE HAVE BEEN ATHEISTS FOR 2500 YEARS!! Next time read more and get your facts correct rather than putting out bullshit about Dalai Lama or Buddha walking stright from womb!

[Arfalarf]

Sorry, incorrect. Buddhism is not atheistic. In addition to the practical matter of the temples, monastaries, and prayers set up to Buddha, there are many branches of Buddhism, such as the Pure Land traidition- and, yes, Tibetan Buddhism as well- which develop elaborate cosmologies teeming with gods.

The fact that the most educated Buddhists say that gods are ultimately irrelavent does not change the fact that a vast majority of Buddhism's followers believe in them.

[Munro1Man]

What read more shit!! I think not !

[waytohell2]

let me tell u something pulinap ur english is way better than that morron munro1man ideot i envy u for your capacity of learning another language for i my self is an esl stupent at the moment but your pushing me to learn a third language =D tyvm keep it up friend!

[Munro1Man]

How can his English be better than mine you IDIOT, I'm English !!

Oh and MORONS believe in fairy tales !!

For the record waytohell2 I am pushing my daughter to learn another language as I feel it will benefit her. For me, all I need to read has been translated already so I don't want to waste my time and detract from my other studies.

You should learn your second first!

I made my point just fine ( if you read English ), this is all hot air, built around a stupid bronze age belief system.

[waytohell2]

ur an arrogant kid stuck in the body of an old man thats how i see it from here. im an thiest. im happy with my english at the moment and im still learning it in college. Additionally i can take the idea of learning more than a single language at one time unlike ur self. and i love the fact that ur pushing ur kid to learn other language, yet it doesnt matter since ur still an as i said befor arrogant old man.i learned english because i like it but its people like u who make it seem worth nothing

[Munro1Man]

When your first language is English, why learn another lol

[pulinap]

Typical British Arrogance - The British Empire is long gone mate- you guys are borrowing money by the truck loads form Chinese - Well come to the real word.

You children may well speak Chinese, when they are paying your debt.

Learning another language mean you are broadening you horizon and gain access for more knowledge. Your are STUPID because, you are narrow minded!!!

[Munro1Man]

We are arrogant, we gave the world Darwin !! I know the Empire has gone but still English is used in most countries to some degree, so I'm stupid for using that !!

Narrow minded haha

[waytohell2]

u r still arrogant stupid to think that u dont need to learn another language.pulinap clearly made his point yet urs is still foggy just cuz many people speak english doesnt make u ignorant to learning another. learning another language is as pulinap access for more knowledge and if u dont ask for knowledge that my friend make u stupid.

[tonytrouser]

Um, you didn't give the world anything. The fact that he was born in England was a genetic accident.

Get over yourself

[Munro1Man]

Wrong. If he had been born in another country with a different attitude to science we may have had to wait years for the truth to come out. Its testament to our society that he was able to win over the masses. Just look at the States, those idiots are still arguing over it. So yes I am proud to be English, well now the Empire has gone any way.

[tonytrouser]

Being English has nothing to do at all with his achievements.

Do you think on his epitaph they should put, "Oh, and by the way he was English." As if it made some sort of difference?

His achievements belong to the world. Just like a Mozart or a Picasso. The place of their birth is incidental.

[tonytrouser]

By the way Hitchens is now an American citizen.

Hmm. I wonder why?

[Munro1Man]

I know why. Because he feels he is somehow protected from the stupidity that is religion by the first amendment. We are somewhat behind on that respect as we still stupidly honour hereditary peers and have ourselves all wrapped up in the church/state/head of state thing. He recognised the chance of a country free of religious bigotry as it was surely meant to be and decided to go there and fight for it. It is pivotal to the world and should not be allowed to go backwards.

[Xorinite]

He actually stated why he decided to become an American citizen, so there really is no need to wonder why.

He lived in America for some time, he is married to an American, his children are American, and he is a great admirer of the secular American Constitution.

I can understand his position on that last one, being English and also admiring the American Constitution.

[tonytrouser]

I was being sarcastic. That's for the info though. Very helpful

[WalrusBoyWonder]

Ugh... I never understood national pride. I can see the value in loyalty to one's country, and even faith in one's country, but to be proud of the geographical location you were born at purely by chance seems pointless. I'm British, I'm bilingual, I don't see how being British gives me any sort of credit for the achievements of Charles Darwin, nor do I see a need to take shame in the fact Britain isn't what it used to be. National pride is needlessly divisive.

[thegreatestbak2]

yes...very well put i completely agree

[Munro1Man]

Of course it does. Its the society and education that allows these people to make the advancements they make. I agree national pride can be divisive, the Empire days are a massive stain on our history, all driven by national pride and an unjust respect for the monarchy. Nothing wrong with being proud though as I also applaud the countries that gave us other great figures throughout history. Like I said I would learn another tongue if I had time but Im doing my degree and it just wont happen

[WalrusBoyWonder]

I didn't say it's strictly a bad thing, and it has done some good, I said I didn't understand the point in it. Unfortunately there is a thin line between national pride and supremacy. I'm bilingual because my parents are from different nationalities by the way, so in a way that is actually an accident of birth, although I have studied a further 2 languages and I strongly recommend it :)

[Munro1Man]

I just have not got the time. I work and am trying to get my degree finished as I would like to teach when I leave the forces. Its all I can do to get my head around the maths at the minute !!

[WalrusBoyWonder]

Heh no worries man, best of luck

[Adrealist]

@WalrusBoyWonder A serious disadvantage about being raised in America is how we are one of the few countries that puts almost zero emphasis on learning a foreign language. Without that it makes picking one up rather difficult, not to say that there arn't also many people who do. A friend of mine is gifted in linguistics and is now on his 4th one. I'm engaged to an Asian woman. Our child will speak at least 2.

[TheWinepusher]

@Adrealist

um....... most high schools require about 2years of a foreign language

[Arfalarf]

"Did he not stand up straight from the womb and walk ??"

HE DID NOT!!

"Isn't the Dali-lama his reincarnation?"

HE IS NOT!!

You cannot simply state matters of dogma like that as though they are accepted fact. Statements like that require evidence.

[Munro1Man]

Depends where you read it from then doesn't it ? Must be as many crackpot Buddhist sects as there are christian ones !!

[Arfalarf]

exactly

[twk373]

Damn it, Dinesh. You should have jumped on Hitchens' pious concession that Socrates and/or Alexander the Great, et cetera, may have never existed. Instead you gave him an opening and he walked right through it.

[nickelit]

Please provide us with at least one example of Lewis's "logic acumen". Because if you can't, I'll post some examples myself. And they are so surreal that they are way beyond what even the most inebriated Hitchens could produce.

[ultraviolet99]

We're all so proud of you for having the guts to say so.

[waterseric]

Following your logic, if one is a Christian, then he or she must also subscribe to the idea that *billions* of people around the world are completely and utterly insane -- namely followers of other religions (Islam, etc). So...if *that* can't be the case...then Christianity should be abandoned? Reasoning from popularity is a bad argument.

As an atheist, I wouldn't say I'm bitter -- just annoyed at what I perceive to be widespread gullibility and misunderstanding.

[laggynewbie]

I love this soo much, Dinesh caught quote mining.

[starguts]

Wow. I bet D'Souza regrets that two minuet request.

[Jd311989]

5:50 yeah.. its almost as if he already knows? And is the Messiah? Surrounding passages any1? No, no its ok Christopher, keep cherry picking.