P2 Stork vs Flash @ EVER 09 OSL Ro16 Group D Game 3 (Part 2)

[HeLL12aiseR]

1. both armies are maxed, Protoss builds up Carrier infrastructure(more Stargates and a Fleet Beacon) than attacks and replaces inevitable lost psi with Carriers.

2. stretch the mid game with heavy usage of Reavers/Templars than when the Terran prepares for his initial tank push the Protoss prepares for Carriers. than it is a short delay game to not let the Terran reach the Protoss' base/natural and than spring the Carrier trap.

Stork used the 2nd option in this game, and it worked very well...

[Subvers1ve]

I just came across another one of your comments on an old Stork/Flash game. I love the way you talk like you're a gosu at sc when it's pretty clear you don't even play. Why do you insist on lecturing to other viewers pretending you know what you're talking about? Does it make you feel good about yourself?

All you ever do is state the obvious. Latest example, the two ways you can use carriers.

[Subvers1ve]

Basically either get the tech down and transition late game or do it quickly, the underused "carrier-rush". What exactly insightful thing did u say here? That armies can replace psi when maxed with carriers or was it that you can "rush" to carriers? Really??? OMG. Here's a tip, it's not a good idea to try and max and then transition after trading armies. That is a pretty bad idea. And also - it isn't Flash's "micro" that allowed him to defeat carriers as a viable build.

[Subvers1ve]

The Flash build is 2 quick armories with fast double upgrades for mech. Bet you didn't know that huh?

In conclusion you don't have any idea what you're talking about. The same way you kept insisting Flash was 'slumping'. Last I saw, he's number 1 or 2 in the world. Great prediction strategos.

[HeLL12aiseR]

yes, Flash is the "Carrier Killer Terran" with his awesome Goliath micro. however Carriers are very underused these days, especially Carrier rush builds, so there's no reason at all for Flash, or any other Terran for that matter, to expect them unless you see a Fleet Beacon on your scan.

this leads to Carriers being effective(even against Flash) in 2 situations:

[JogglingBean]

go stork!

he's so inconsistent, but proves he can beat anyone

[Robotman42]

Very interesting choice of strategy by Stork: he had planned from the very start to go carriers. A ground army is difficult on this map because the terran can block up the middle with buildings, so he opted for air. Notice that well after researching range, his cybernetics core was spinning and his stargate was coming in, but he hadn't put down his templar archives. That was suggestive of carriers. In addition, he chose expos that are easy to defend by carriers: 4 o'clock and 10 o'clock.

[Robotman42]

I'm not completely sure about the degree to which Stork planned the addition of templar tech, but that was definitely planned as well.

SPOILER

Now, after the battle at 6:43, Flash was completely lost. I think (not sure) that Flash made a mistake in siege-ing up his tanks near the cliff (blocks his goliaths from getting close to carriers) and he lost almost all of his goliaths, leaving Stork with an unstoppable critical mass of carriers. Carrier king vs carrier eater...excellent victory.

[mortenstyrer]

i dont think it was sloppyness to leave the dragoons to die. it was all about killing the goliaths eventhough it was a bad trade (moneywise), i think it was worth it. the time of the dragoons was over at that point :D

[firefoxdkdk]

crazy carrier with a K?...

[ThatWizGuy]

anyone know what this map is called and where i can get it? thanks

[levelermirrod]

Yea pterodactile-toss !

[FaZ07]

Stork didn't even do anything at 0:30. Any Protoss that can A-move could have done that, Dragoons prioritize mines.

[speedfalcon5]

No they dont...they prioritize whatever attacks them, which would be the vultures...

[FaZ07]

Wrong, go try it in a game. You just a-move and they'll attack the mines.

[Robotman42]

Go try it then. Speedfalcon didn't lie. The AI attacks first anything that attacks them; that's why mutas don't attack SCVs on hold-pos if a turret is in the mineral lines.

[FaZ07]

Even given that, since the vultures weren't attacking every dragoon, the mines get targeted automatically just by a-moving, like I said.

[FaZ07]

If there are no vultures within range of the dragoons, which there weren't for the rear ones, when given an a-move they will target mines. I definitely shouldn't have used the word prioritize, that was wrong.

The only two mines he seems to have targeted were at :22 and :23.

[Subvers1ve]

If u have say, 2 or 3 dragoons and u a-move them thru mines the mines will hit them. This happens to every player until they learn to "dance" dragoons back and forth. Move forward, back and hold-fire. Otherwise the goons don't shoot fast enough.

[FaZ07]

Did you even watching this video? He's not moving into a minefield, he's having mines planted next to him by vultures where he has a huge spread of dragoons.

[Subvers1ve]

No I'm referring to whether goons auto attack mines. And if that was the case in this old game, then as someone said, the goons prioritise the vultures first - not the mines. So if he shot the mines then that was micro and skill.

[Subvers1ve]

Yeah just re-watched it, that was nice micro. There are plenty of vultures around almost all the goons. He had to attack the mines specifically to get tham. I see what you're saying - some of the shots would have been auto but some weren't. Anyway, whatever :)

[KaLNFoRc3R]

Aren't dropships effective on this map ? Especially of the toss blocks his expo entrance with pylons.

[panzerrunner]

Keep up the good job moletrap

[stealthxsin]

3:00 - 3:07

"ITS A STORK OF BISU!!its-its-its a S-S-Storks OF BISU!1!! its a base of storks rather!" AHAHA WTF?!?!?! ur awesome moletrap. funniest moment in this casting

[Mpower277]

it's a stork of bases*

[RaiKageRyu]

Flash losing to Carriers... The man who made them nearly extinct in the first place. The Dinotoss, survives extermination.

[stealthxsin]

well said :P

[lordhenry4000]

moletrap, you forgot to mention that not only is Flash the physical embodiment of goliath micro, Stork is the god-avatar of carriers (as he shows you at the end when he points out his carrier pin, hehe).

[fiveofakind]

great game and great commentary by the mole man moletrap

[arcum]

Why didn't Flash go for ghosts/lockdown when he scanned the stargates/fleet beacon?

[IIrond]

the game has evolved... mass goliath is better

[arcum]

Ah, thanks for the responses

Any links to mass goliath Flash games?

[phantomkang]

try it yourself against your friend.

on the same skill level, it is impossible. while you do lockdowns on carriers, storm drops will wipe out your whole army

[phantomkang]

well, if you want to watch pros doing that, leta recently used it against horang2. and boxer in his prime used to do that all the time, though the stratgety now has become completely uneffective. reason flash counnt deal with carriers is because he initially did 4 facs timing rush which made him fall behind in armament(or upgrade) race at the end. otherwise, in general up goliath overwhelms carrier.

[herrbananapa]

@arcum because its extremely hard to pull off and expensive tech

[WindxStrife]

cuz stork would micro like a beast and storm the crap out of everything, not to mention that that'd take a massive tech switch, and like ghosts would just get raped, just like straight up.

[Robotman42]

1. Ghosts need a lot of gas, and he would probably need a second barracks, which would disrupt his macro. Unless he has 4+ bases, better to just stick to goliaths

2. Takes lots of micro that he wouldn't be able to use on goliaths. Flash became a menace to carriers because he mastered hold-pos micro.

3. He needs a lot of resources to make the "transition" to ghosts: starport, sci-facility, covert ops, research lockdown, (research cloak).

[JOEMAMA5905]

fantastic game since the very beginning stork made flash play his game

he stole flash's gas early which leaves fast cc as a viable option (stork seemed as if he wanted to put a pylon down where the cc was supposed to go but flash saw it coming) and stork just played it from there

[20kcritsyo]

man, has stork lost wieght

[3GreteL3]

man, glad to see that at least ONE protoss is still winning (yeah, bisu, im lookin at YOU)

[bullbunnies]

leave bisu alone

he's got 8 kids to take care of

[assitch666]

Stork flew away with his economy

[BerendBotje123]

Nice commentary, thanks!!

[G2nelson]

i dont think flash knew about that expo

[frostydisco]

noooo Flash!

[lowfatfishsticks]

spoiler!

aerodactyltoss ftw.

[nuitaridark]

man stork is a legend

[AznAcorn]

Stork of bases!

[younglinkms]

man stork is a beast. awesome job with goon micro in the middle game and great finish with carriers and templar

[HandofCorruption]

Fkn love stork, he plays such an interesting game. A big joy to watch him play professional protoss.

[chisaku]

Holy shit. Incredible game. Carriers into Psy Storm on tanks/goliaths.

Unbelievable strategist.

[krakken46]

i wish nuke could have commented this because he loves stork... but moletrap is my second favorite

[CrazyForWoW]

I like when both players play each other. They always make the game very good

[pyr0ma5ta]

Stork of bases \o/

[DDeyanski]

Sorrie about that job, dude!

Why did Flash leave his Goliaths just picking off interceptors for such a long time, when he could have attacked the Carriers themselves...?

[mognite]

Stork was microing his carriers fairly well, it was difficult for flash to target them.

[buddyboy122122]

Yeah, with the way that pro gamers can micro the carriers, espcially with all the ridges and whatnot, it's easier to pick off the intereceptors and effectively make the carriers useless rather than try to chase the carriers around cliffs and bleed the goliaths without really doing any damage

[Robotman42]

Actually, there are two situations, and I don't remember the exact formula for how to know which to do.

Situation A: goliaths far outnumber carriers: hold-pos micro the goliaths away from the cliff; they will kill the interceptors, making the carriers temporarily ineffective

Sibuation B: goliath number isn't very big, carriers have the advantage. Target-fire single carriers while retreating goliaths. Probably, it's because this is the only way to inflict significant damage with low numbers.

[SmartTofu]

wowsers

[Josh15dean]

good 2 see ur alive moletrap lol

[StarCraftAccount]

Gobble.

[mognite]

Stork is Redaculous. Its interesting to see him smile so much lately. Too bad Kwanro is in this tough group.

[althebaker43]

fuck yeah Stork rocks!

[krakken46]

fuck yea he rocks

[Mydashkey]

I think I'm offically a Stork fan.

[krakken46]

hell yea you are

[mikelorus2]

Awesome play!

[ModeLTU]

I think Susie said that Stork's nickname was "Commander and chief of no mistakes".Pretty kewl

Yea, gg by Stork, Carriers ftw

[XsebT]

Still gay for that bird.

[TheJudgeMan1]

wow ppl still play it on the crappy graphics after 12 years.

cant wait for sc2!

[TheEggm]

Graphics don't matter. I prefer 2d it seems overall less clunky then any 3d game i've seen to this day. 2d is just more fast pace and fun gameplay IMO. Like megaman X on the SNES vses megaman legends.. eh .. or starcraft to wc3 or ragnarok to world of warcraft or super mario bros 3 to super mario galaxy. All the 2d games focus more on gameplay and are faster and smoother IMO.

[drizztisgod]

It's a Stork of bases!!

[surrealmax3]

Ohh I understand,  You press H every time the goliaths shoot, because it only takes one shot, and when they auto target their second shot misses dead interceptor. x2 interceptor kills.

[MonsGrat]

@surrealmax3 nope, goliath can't one shot interceptors. Otherwise the battle would be over pretty quickly. Interceptor have 40 shield and 40 hitpoints. Goliath do 2x10 (2x12 level1 weapon, 2x14 level 2 and 2x16 level 3) so the need with level 3 weapon 4 shoots.

[surrealmax3]

ok. I was thinking they had 20/20 life. But thats only 3 shots fully upgraded, unless carriers have more than 4 armor/shield upgrade.

[MonsGrat]

Nope, goliath do explosive damage. So they do full damage against shield, but only 50% against hit points. So it's 4 shoots.

[surrealmax3]

Hey where do you find that information, because I've tried looking on a bunch of websites, and even in the read/me files. I cant seem to find it. (dmg ratios, hit ratio, dmg types, shot range,vision range) Is there really a constant 1% miss chance for any projectile?

[augdog2]

Very GG.

[TrunJun420]

Heh... Ftw.

[Tony000888]

Awesome play from the winner

[divine0g0d]

tat was a really good game gg

[syyhkyrotta]

loooooool molie go!!