Nicely said, I have had to debate the usefulness of the Wisdom score over the ages of D&D, and with 3rd, 3.5 and Pathfinder I find it actually sets it in stone a bit more.
@Webhead123 I would reckon that my meandering diatribe was little more than solo musings, but if that oracular commentary made sense to anyone, then... bravo and do tell!
I am still in thoughts on topic, and a bit perplexed why it would be an issue of high controversy, beyond an academic strait.
(cont.) However, I suppose that I could argue the same in inverse... that none of the physical stats have any place on a character sheet, and only the representative aspects of persona characterization in an abstract need be applied to the environmental narrative expectations of a hero's journey.
Either-way, neither extreme would satisfy me, I enjoy the tactical aspects of simulated realities in a game perspective, and the narrative exploration of monomyth-ical exposition in fantastic settings.
To say that no mental attribute or persona aspect has any place on a character-sheet, and is completely at the discretion of the player in any given moment does seem to be much more readily accomplishable, on the surface only physical statistics apply to the tactical elements of a "game", and all other aspects are pure fiat. (cont.)
On the point of Wisdom being either Deific or Earthly; I would say that it is healthier to take all the attributes as a bit of both - Nature & Nurture, Deific & Earthly, Elemental & Divine... Material & Planar.
Within the D&D cosmology, I see no more reason here than in alignment, to dichotomize hard contrary lines as aspects of opposites. The Physical and The Immaterial worlds are more observably inclusive, rather than preclusive, more imbricated - enveloping both aspects as parts of a whole.
When I run older games or retro-clones and I need a Perception check, I do tend to have them roll under Wisdom. For me I don't have a problem with Wisdom. I see people that aren't very wise, and others that are. In my experience it is the people that have had a tough life that seem to have more wisdom. On Aaron's video I mentioned that I think Wisdom in a fantasy RPG is derived from the Gods, so some people can see into things, feel things, etc. Since it is the Cleric Stat that makes sense 2 me.
So I do not see "sanity mechanics" or "common sense checks" as a "force roleplay", no more than "strength checks" or...
perhaps far less so than "skill checks" ... as these are quite readily seen "limiting" my knowledge of chemistry, biology, physics in general...
or "health checks" vs. constitution, or static charisma checks that simply state that... somehow the paladin played by a rather ruthless and barbaric PLAYER, is still more social than my altruistic and rather wise bard. ???really???
I can /try/ to play an insanity "correctly" in a fun and imaginative way - but since I am not (hopefully) in possession of (excessive) insanities, I cannot be expected to play it up all the time, reminders (through mechanic) are a welcome relief - and save my sanity (or what may be left of it) from further undue stress.
Other aspects (less "dark" and "mental" in nature) are just as challenging, even my own expectation of body movements by innate kinematic ability (Dex) will cause discrepancy.
I can never play any part, physical or mental, beyond my own ability without mechanical assistance... and be assured that I am playing it "correctly" ... this is unfortunate, but cannot be corrected... I can create a willing "suspension of disbelief" on faith and entertain a "leap of immersion" for aproximation... but it is never perfect, never will be, and I have to rely on mechanic to afford the divergence in my personal Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha from that of my character.
I am not my character in capability at any level, all statistics represented on the sheet, from base Attribute to Skill is completely unrealistic to my own Player capability... My character has knowledge and experience (of for example, culturally biased in-game latrine usage) that I will never have (hopefully)... and I have knowledge of physics and philosophy far beyond the expectations of the common "superstitious native" living in the setting cosmos.
@thespiritcoyote I generally agree with the undertone of all of your comments here. There is (and, IMHO, should be) a distinct separation between the capabilities of the *player* versus the *character* and, as humans and human experience is enslaved to "habit", we need some form of assistance to transcend the state of being merely "a player making player-centric choices while rolling dice" to being "a character making character-centric choices while exercising experience".
When I "roll" against my characters Stats to ensure I do not step beyond a characters ability in a set of possibilities, I determine the most appropriate course for the character.
The GM does not ever /dictate/ actions - The "roll" provides the determinate basis for a class of potential actions within accordance of boundaries I /chose/ at character design - A GM /may/ use GM Knowledge to set certain weight to choices above or below a defaulted expectance - but it is entirely my(player) choice.
Also there is honestly absolutely no mechanical support for "common sense" that I can agree with, as players dictate actions of characters without rolling dice. If there is die rolling for the GM to say "Uh, that goes against common sense", it's just a mite too close to GMs telling characters how they think and feel, which really rubs me the wrong way.
@azirk83 I really agree about that last bit. I had a DM who once made us roll intelligence checks to "rethink" course of action that he knew to be disastrous. It was well-intentioned but not very fun.
@azirk83 I agree with that (no need for a "common sense" mechanic) but I do encounter and perceive the need for an element "common sense" that exists outside of the *player* but within the *character* (typically handled by GM reminders of setting/theme/tone and by player Q&A about the game and its world). Why? Because the verisimilitude of a game-world and its expectations are often in stark contrast to "real world" expectations and it's not uncommon for the player to forget (we're only human!).
A trained-Sense Motive may be fine under wisdom, but this seems to me unskilled-empathy based suited for Charisma (actors intuition? all actors are really that wise?), or a new stat split from Charisma and Wisdom, and I would argue for an Intelligence based unskilled-perceptive ability leaving the trained-perceptions under Wisdom.
Over all I have had no cause to make such changes for anything remotely considered "balance" reasons, and new variant skills can "fill the role" simply enough.
"Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons."
To me seems very clear, book-know-how and mental-dexterity. I count this as an equivalence to Sentience.
"Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition."
again very clear to me, mental-fortitude and the ability to acquire knowledge without inference or the use of reason. I count this as an equivalence to Sapience.
Hmm. All this buzz got me thinking about real life pain thresholds and mind of over matter. I remember ready somewhere as a kid that INT was knowing what to do and Wis was knowing what not to do. Kinda didn't make sense. Wisdom as innate potential non learned intellegence is kinda odd as well. Of all the ability score Wis has always been amongst the vague. Comiliness was far more straight forward. Do you feel "mind over matter" was considered to be in practice by the PC when making a Fort save?
@blackbarnz I have this notion that Constitution can be more than a physical attribute, and for that to be the case willpower (no, not the Will Save) has to be direclty connected to it. Endurance is both mental and physical, one can make up for the other, but when Constitution fails then _both_have failed.
@azirk83 I like to think of Frotitude that way myself it seems like something the designers would've considered. In my 3.5/PF game we use the Sanity Point variant from Unearthed Arcana 3.5. Which in concept is just an extension of how the character see's the world and character's demeanor. Have you ever read this variant and what are your thoughts on it?
@blackbarnz Personally, I detest mechanics that force roleplay. I don't play Pendragon, Call of Cthulhu, and don't even use Alignment as a rule. I think the character's reaction to a given situation should really be the player's, and ONLY the player's, domain. So when you say "sanity mechanic", I grimace.
@azirk83 The system uses Wisdom score X5 = PC sanity points (sanity hit points). Sanity checks are made on a D100+ difficulty modifer. The result is compared to current PC sanity points. If the result is under current sanity points no sanity damage. If the result is higher than current sanity points the difference is subtracted from the PC's currrent sanity point total. Negative sanity points equals insane.
@azirk83 I have my own very *fidgity* opinions on this topic ("forcing roleplay") resulting in many instances in which I agree but also some in which I disagree...but I believe that's ground we've tread before.
@Webhead123 Yeah, we've been down that road, and I've made my position of "managing player expectations != forcing character actions" pretty clear, I think.
Well put description there at the end of what you think Wisdom is comprised of. It is an Ability Score in D&D3-3.5E that I use often. I do like the Skills it feeds to as well. I think it's indispensable in that game. Cheers
@boltorange I had an interesting friend (he was a therapist/grief councillor) who didn't believe in the existence of "willpower". His position was that people simply choose (if only semi-conciously) to surrender to pressure or choose not to. To what length one is willing to go before choosing surrender is (if I recall correctly by his assessment) simply the conditioning of self-importance (aka, the person asking themselves whether they feel their goal or their state-of-being is more value)...
...In short, he seemed to be suggesting that there is no such thing as "mental endurance". You either choose to give up or your choose to press on. This is not to be mistaken with "physical endurance", as it is possible to push your body to the point of physical failure, after which, no amount of "willpower" will permit you to exceed those limitations.
@Webhead123 All very interesting points and quite plausible but (as I should have made more clear in my too-short comment) I was just referring to CptM describing the will save as a defense against having one's perceptions altered. I don't mind a lack of correlation between IRL experience and game mechanics (to a point, as with anything).
@boltorange Oh, I know. I have to apologize myself for the lack of clarity. I was simply entertaining an tangential ramble that was brought to mind when you used the word "willpower".
I agree. "Willpower" is a fun and useful narrative construct whether or not you believe in its function within reality.
@Webhead123 I put both abilities in the same pot. If your mind gives out but your body keeps going, Con succeeds. If your body gives out but your mind keeps going, Con succeeds. Only when both fail does Con fail. I hold Constitution in higher regard than most, I suppose. I correlate pain suppression, willpower, and really just guts all in the same boat.
Wow, lots and lots of issues with this video. I might actually have to do a follow up vid for the mass of misconceptions and inaccuracies you portray here. First you should probably look at my profile as my name is on there. Secondly hit up my Saves video to see my opinion on 3E saves (that they're crapsauce, basically), That brings me to thirdly, it's a lot of hassle to take the stat out of 3E and PF as those games don't houserule well. Also I don't play them for this and many other reasons
Generally, I despise house rules for the reason you mentioned. A lot of them have a domino effect which starts effecting everything else, requiring more house rules to fix. I'll only go with them if they're actually known to fix stuff (such as speeding up 4e combat by lowering monster hp and increasing their damage). That kind of stuff is ok.
I always advocated it's use, but many have rightfully so had issues in past editions of the games.
skuzzyknuckles 1 month ago
Nicely said, I have had to debate the usefulness of the Wisdom score over the ages of D&D, and with 3rd, 3.5 and Pathfinder I find it actually sets it in stone a bit more.
skuzzyknuckles 1 month ago
@Webhead123 I would reckon that my meandering diatribe was little more than solo musings, but if that oracular commentary made sense to anyone, then... bravo and do tell!
I am still in thoughts on topic, and a bit perplexed why it would be an issue of high controversy, beyond an academic strait.
thespiritcoyote 1 month ago
(cont.) However, I suppose that I could argue the same in inverse... that none of the physical stats have any place on a character sheet, and only the representative aspects of persona characterization in an abstract need be applied to the environmental narrative expectations of a hero's journey.
Either-way, neither extreme would satisfy me, I enjoy the tactical aspects of simulated realities in a game perspective, and the narrative exploration of monomyth-ical exposition in fantastic settings.
thespiritcoyote 1 month ago
To say that no mental attribute or persona aspect has any place on a character-sheet, and is completely at the discretion of the player in any given moment does seem to be much more readily accomplishable, on the surface only physical statistics apply to the tactical elements of a "game", and all other aspects are pure fiat. (cont.)
thespiritcoyote 1 month ago
On the point of Wisdom being either Deific or Earthly; I would say that it is healthier to take all the attributes as a bit of both - Nature & Nurture, Deific & Earthly, Elemental & Divine... Material & Planar.
Within the D&D cosmology, I see no more reason here than in alignment, to dichotomize hard contrary lines as aspects of opposites. The Physical and The Immaterial worlds are more observably inclusive, rather than preclusive, more imbricated - enveloping both aspects as parts of a whole.
thespiritcoyote 1 month ago
When I run older games or retro-clones and I need a Perception check, I do tend to have them roll under Wisdom. For me I don't have a problem with Wisdom. I see people that aren't very wise, and others that are. In my experience it is the people that have had a tough life that seem to have more wisdom. On Aaron's video I mentioned that I think Wisdom in a fantasy RPG is derived from the Gods, so some people can see into things, feel things, etc. Since it is the Cleric Stat that makes sense 2 me.
Samwise7RPG 2 months ago
So I do not see "sanity mechanics" or "common sense checks" as a "force roleplay", no more than "strength checks" or...
perhaps far less so than "skill checks" ... as these are quite readily seen "limiting" my knowledge of chemistry, biology, physics in general...
or "health checks" vs. constitution, or static charisma checks that simply state that... somehow the paladin played by a rather ruthless and barbaric PLAYER, is still more social than my altruistic and rather wise bard. ???really???
thespiritcoyote 2 months ago
I can /try/ to play an insanity "correctly" in a fun and imaginative way - but since I am not (hopefully) in possession of (excessive) insanities, I cannot be expected to play it up all the time, reminders (through mechanic) are a welcome relief - and save my sanity (or what may be left of it) from further undue stress.
Other aspects (less "dark" and "mental" in nature) are just as challenging, even my own expectation of body movements by innate kinematic ability (Dex) will cause discrepancy.
thespiritcoyote 2 months ago
I can never play any part, physical or mental, beyond my own ability without mechanical assistance... and be assured that I am playing it "correctly" ... this is unfortunate, but cannot be corrected... I can create a willing "suspension of disbelief" on faith and entertain a "leap of immersion" for aproximation... but it is never perfect, never will be, and I have to rely on mechanic to afford the divergence in my personal Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha from that of my character.
thespiritcoyote 2 months ago
I am not my character in capability at any level, all statistics represented on the sheet, from base Attribute to Skill is completely unrealistic to my own Player capability... My character has knowledge and experience (of for example, culturally biased in-game latrine usage) that I will never have (hopefully)... and I have knowledge of physics and philosophy far beyond the expectations of the common "superstitious native" living in the setting cosmos.
thespiritcoyote 2 months ago
@thespiritcoyote I generally agree with the undertone of all of your comments here. There is (and, IMHO, should be) a distinct separation between the capabilities of the *player* versus the *character* and, as humans and human experience is enslaved to "habit", we need some form of assistance to transcend the state of being merely "a player making player-centric choices while rolling dice" to being "a character making character-centric choices while exercising experience".
Webhead123 2 months ago
When I "roll" against my characters Stats to ensure I do not step beyond a characters ability in a set of possibilities, I determine the most appropriate course for the character.
The GM does not ever /dictate/ actions - The "roll" provides the determinate basis for a class of potential actions within accordance of boundaries I /chose/ at character design - A GM /may/ use GM Knowledge to set certain weight to choices above or below a defaulted expectance - but it is entirely my(player) choice.
thespiritcoyote 2 months ago
Comment removed
azirk83 2 months ago
Also there is honestly absolutely no mechanical support for "common sense" that I can agree with, as players dictate actions of characters without rolling dice. If there is die rolling for the GM to say "Uh, that goes against common sense", it's just a mite too close to GMs telling characters how they think and feel, which really rubs me the wrong way.
azirk83 2 months ago
@azirk83 I really agree about that last bit. I had a DM who once made us roll intelligence checks to "rethink" course of action that he knew to be disastrous. It was well-intentioned but not very fun.
boltorange 2 months ago
@azirk83 I agree with that (no need for a "common sense" mechanic) but I do encounter and perceive the need for an element "common sense" that exists outside of the *player* but within the *character* (typically handled by GM reminders of setting/theme/tone and by player Q&A about the game and its world). Why? Because the verisimilitude of a game-world and its expectations are often in stark contrast to "real world" expectations and it's not uncommon for the player to forget (we're only human!).
Webhead123 2 months ago
A trained-Sense Motive may be fine under wisdom, but this seems to me unskilled-empathy based suited for Charisma (actors intuition? all actors are really that wise?), or a new stat split from Charisma and Wisdom, and I would argue for an Intelligence based unskilled-perceptive ability leaving the trained-perceptions under Wisdom.
Over all I have had no cause to make such changes for anything remotely considered "balance" reasons, and new variant skills can "fill the role" simply enough.
thespiritcoyote 2 months ago
"Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons."
To me seems very clear, book-know-how and mental-dexterity. I count this as an equivalence to Sentience.
"Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition."
again very clear to me, mental-fortitude and the ability to acquire knowledge without inference or the use of reason. I count this as an equivalence to Sapience.
thespiritcoyote 2 months ago
Hmm. All this buzz got me thinking about real life pain thresholds and mind of over matter. I remember ready somewhere as a kid that INT was knowing what to do and Wis was knowing what not to do. Kinda didn't make sense. Wisdom as innate potential non learned intellegence is kinda odd as well. Of all the ability score Wis has always been amongst the vague. Comiliness was far more straight forward. Do you feel "mind over matter" was considered to be in practice by the PC when making a Fort save?
blackbarnz 2 months ago
@blackbarnz" I remember reading somewhere as a kid" rather than "remember ready"
blackbarnz 2 months ago
@blackbarnz I have this notion that Constitution can be more than a physical attribute, and for that to be the case willpower (no, not the Will Save) has to be direclty connected to it. Endurance is both mental and physical, one can make up for the other, but when Constitution fails then _both_have failed.
azirk83 2 months ago
@azirk83 I like to think of Frotitude that way myself it seems like something the designers would've considered. In my 3.5/PF game we use the Sanity Point variant from Unearthed Arcana 3.5. Which in concept is just an extension of how the character see's the world and character's demeanor. Have you ever read this variant and what are your thoughts on it?
blackbarnz 2 months ago
@blackbarnz Personally, I detest mechanics that force roleplay. I don't play Pendragon, Call of Cthulhu, and don't even use Alignment as a rule. I think the character's reaction to a given situation should really be the player's, and ONLY the player's, domain. So when you say "sanity mechanic", I grimace.
azirk83 2 months ago
@azirk83 Ha! I didn't even mention the mechanic on top of a mechanic aspect of the variant yet!
blackbarnz 2 months ago
@blackbarnz I don't follow you
azirk83 2 months ago
@azirk83 The system uses Wisdom score X5 = PC sanity points (sanity hit points). Sanity checks are made on a D100+ difficulty modifer. The result is compared to current PC sanity points. If the result is under current sanity points no sanity damage. If the result is higher than current sanity points the difference is subtracted from the PC's currrent sanity point total. Negative sanity points equals insane.
blackbarnz 2 months ago
@azirk83 I have my own very *fidgity* opinions on this topic ("forcing roleplay") resulting in many instances in which I agree but also some in which I disagree...but I believe that's ground we've tread before.
Webhead123 2 months ago
@Webhead123 Yeah, we've been down that road, and I've made my position of "managing player expectations != forcing character actions" pretty clear, I think.
azirk83 2 months ago
Bravo!! Eya-au-huzza!! by the dog's, I think he is on it!!
I must watch this again... well said on all points.
thespiritcoyote 2 months ago
Well put description there at the end of what you think Wisdom is comprised of. It is an Ability Score in D&D3-3.5E that I use often. I do like the Skills it feeds to as well. I think it's indispensable in that game. Cheers
23penguins32 2 months ago
Excellent analysis of willpower!
boltorange 2 months ago
@boltorange I had an interesting friend (he was a therapist/grief councillor) who didn't believe in the existence of "willpower". His position was that people simply choose (if only semi-conciously) to surrender to pressure or choose not to. To what length one is willing to go before choosing surrender is (if I recall correctly by his assessment) simply the conditioning of self-importance (aka, the person asking themselves whether they feel their goal or their state-of-being is more value)...
Webhead123 2 months ago
...In short, he seemed to be suggesting that there is no such thing as "mental endurance". You either choose to give up or your choose to press on. This is not to be mistaken with "physical endurance", as it is possible to push your body to the point of physical failure, after which, no amount of "willpower" will permit you to exceed those limitations.
Webhead123 2 months ago
@Webhead123 All very interesting points and quite plausible but (as I should have made more clear in my too-short comment) I was just referring to CptM describing the will save as a defense against having one's perceptions altered. I don't mind a lack of correlation between IRL experience and game mechanics (to a point, as with anything).
boltorange 2 months ago
@boltorange Oh, I know. I have to apologize myself for the lack of clarity. I was simply entertaining an tangential ramble that was brought to mind when you used the word "willpower".
I agree. "Willpower" is a fun and useful narrative construct whether or not you believe in its function within reality.
Webhead123 2 months ago
@Webhead123 I put both abilities in the same pot. If your mind gives out but your body keeps going, Con succeeds. If your body gives out but your mind keeps going, Con succeeds. Only when both fail does Con fail. I hold Constitution in higher regard than most, I suppose. I correlate pain suppression, willpower, and really just guts all in the same boat.
azirk83 2 months ago
Wow, lots and lots of issues with this video. I might actually have to do a follow up vid for the mass of misconceptions and inaccuracies you portray here. First you should probably look at my profile as my name is on there. Secondly hit up my Saves video to see my opinion on 3E saves (that they're crapsauce, basically), That brings me to thirdly, it's a lot of hassle to take the stat out of 3E and PF as those games don't houserule well. Also I don't play them for this and many other reasons
azirk83 2 months ago
@azirk83 Well you could make a follow up video, or you could accept this as someone else's opinion and move on.
MrRakshira 2 months ago
@MrRakshira Yeah, that's a good point.
azirk83 2 months ago
@azirk83 fair enough, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
cptmachine 2 months ago
@cptmachine I did overreact, bad day at work honestly.
You did get a little condescending in the video, though. Probably would have helped if you'd have figured out my name beforehand.
azirk83 2 months ago
Generally, I despise house rules for the reason you mentioned. A lot of them have a domino effect which starts effecting everything else, requiring more house rules to fix. I'll only go with them if they're actually known to fix stuff (such as speeding up 4e combat by lowering monster hp and increasing their damage). That kind of stuff is ok.
Droogie128 2 months ago