the thing is that this does not show the player at the moment the ball is played....that is when the AR is looking...he could have been offside, and come back on, then try for the ball again...all depends on where the ball was when the ball was played, not when he started running
The linesman does not call the infraction, merely signals. The Referee calls the infraction. If the AR's flag is early, the Ref does not have to stop play.
Another thing, the argument that the AR should have waited for participation only makes sense if you believe that a 2nd, onside, attacker is about to run into the picture. Otherwise, that claim is a red herring. If that guy is off, then he is off. He is not going to somehow become onside in the meantime, as the AR waits for participation..
What the video DOES show with remarkable clarity is that the fans are never watching the forward as he jockeys for position BEFORE the ball is played. They have their attention directed 40 yards up field. But one man does have is FULL attention on the relative positions of the second to last defender and the attacker. Thankfully, that guy is the same one whose job it is to make the call, and he is indicating offside.
Offside is judged at the moment the ball is kicked by the attacking team. This video only shows the positions of the players later, as they chase down the ball. The attacker could have been ahead when it mattered.
The Asst Referee appears to be well-positioned to see if this was offside.
As for comments that the AR should have waited - no. There was only one offside-positioned player and he was challenging a defender for the ball.
you can't see anything from this video. offside is judged by the attacker's position when the ball is last played by a teammate and it is impossible to see this here.
i agree with u, rickhwt, that the linesman's flag does seem to go up a bit early. i, personally, try to wait a bit, especially when there are two players in the area(in this case, the second one was not offside, so he'd have been fine).
i'm glad you are satisfied with the buzz this has cause, and i'm glad you posted it. the best way to get the greatest perspective is to ask many referees, because each has his or her own views.
I just wanted to comment, 2 1/2 yrs after posting, and closer to 5 yrs gone since that day. - I am pleased it has generated this discussion.
again... I fully acknowledge the bad camera angle for when the pass was made.. and so it cannot truly be judged -- but I do think I am nearly in line (perpendicular) with the linesman. and I do think he should have waited for participation. and I do believe to this day that he abused his "home field advantage" and made several questionable calls.
i agree with jroy375. i also want to point out that even if the attacking player appeared 'even' with the defender, his upper body appears to be further forward then the defender, which means he could be at least a half step offside. but, the assistant was in a great position, so offside.
Amen itsanna73...not to mention that determining offside happens at the moment the ball is touched by the passing player, which is nearly impossible to determine from the video. You see the linesman with the flag already raised by the time the camera pans to the action, so I assume the determination was made correctly...at the time the ball was passed. Then again, how can anyone tell from such a video?
After 900 matches as referee let me tell you that if you are not exactly square to the field and perfectly in line with the second to last defender then you have no idea whatever about the accuracy of this decision. This video is perfectly useless if the idea is to establish that the referee is incorrect. Parents and coaches think they can make this judgement from their seat; they are dead wrong. The ref is in position; the parent is not. His decision stands.
2. If the defesive player sped up after the kick and/or the offensive player slowed down, that would change postions - wait for it - when the ball is played for forward.
Ok, I wish you could have had a better angle, showing where the player was at the time the ball was passed up field. But from the slow (although blury) image, it looks like the player (RED) is onside when the ball is kicked, which is all that matters.
(Also note that it is called an "Offside" rule. NOT an "Offsides" rule. Don't ask me why, its part of the european influence.
Not true, if in the opinion of the referee, he was the only attacker with a chance to get the ball, the referee is instructed to call it right away. From that video he seems to be the only one in the area. The only question is was he offside when the ball was passed to him.
Sure looks offside to me, but that may have been too early for the linesman to raise the flag. There is no involvement yet. Simply being in an offside position does not mean you are involved.
thats inconclusive, you cant c the forward at the time of the pass... rickhwt's comment that he would have had to move at an unreasonable speed is not true... i was reffing rec soccer yesterday, and there were plenty of situations that looked like that in the end, but the forward was not offside, but there were also ones that made it look like he was clearly offside, and he wasn't, so u never know
Offsides happens at the kick. That means that at the time player A passes the ball forward, your forward can't be in an offside position. But after player A kicks the ball, then your forward has all the right to run faster than the defender to get to the ball first.
so it's hard to say if it was offsides or not because we can't see your forward's position at the time of the kick.
I actually thought it was quite clear. granted you cannot see either the kicker or the position of the forward at the time of the kick. it just seems from the forward and the defender positions and their speed relative to each other. unless one of them moved in an unrealistic speed, judging from the pace of the action.
Yeah but you can't say who started running first. This looks like a goal kick and perhaps the red player is offside when it's kicked, the white player starts running first and then the red player with more speed begins to run. That'd be offside. One can only speculate with this video as you really can't see what you need to be able to see.
The call was made; the referee was correct; you can't change it, you can only control what happens next.
In England, a team is called a "side". When you are cherry picking and not playing with your team, you are considered to be "off" your "side". Because you can only play on one team (side) you can not be offsides, as this would indicate you are on more than one team. When I hear the term "offsides" I instantly question that individuals grasp of the law (11).
The short answer is yes, I am a referee. But I prefer to coach, and believe that you can't play a game; soccer, chess, duck/duck/goose, without knowing the rules. Best way to learn the rules is to officiate. I have my players referee also. It improves their reaction to game.
i am also a ref and that play was close but defintely not offsides. When u see the ball coming he is lined with the player then moves forward. he is NOT offsides. thank you.
"the call was made, and you can't change it" I agree with -- the statement that the ref was correct is arrogant. refs (and I am one also) make mistakes all the time -- just as easily as a pro player can miss a PK.
I believe this ref made a bad call, and it was not the only one that day. I agree this video does not show everything needed for making a call, but I was there.
and richdop's comment regarding participation is surely to be considered before judgment is made.
I think anyone who used home video as 'evidence' to justify their beliefs is not appropriate.
sombri4 2 months ago
Red card for the cameraman...
supahdupahguy81 1 year ago
Impossible to tell.
babicz 1 year ago
the thing is that this does not show the player at the moment the ball is played....that is when the AR is looking...he could have been offside, and come back on, then try for the ball again...all depends on where the ball was when the ball was played, not when he started running
jesuprugger 1 year ago
There's no way to tell from this shit video...
babicz 2 years ago
The linesman does not call the infraction, merely signals. The Referee calls the infraction. If the AR's flag is early, the Ref does not have to stop play.
adirondaker 2 years ago
Another thing, the argument that the AR should have waited for participation only makes sense if you believe that a 2nd, onside, attacker is about to run into the picture. Otherwise, that claim is a red herring. If that guy is off, then he is off. He is not going to somehow become onside in the meantime, as the AR waits for participation..
jayhonk 2 years ago
What the video DOES show with remarkable clarity is that the fans are never watching the forward as he jockeys for position BEFORE the ball is played. They have their attention directed 40 yards up field. But one man does have is FULL attention on the relative positions of the second to last defender and the attacker. Thankfully, that guy is the same one whose job it is to make the call, and he is indicating offside.
jayhonk 2 years ago
That's offside.
crazyzoony 2 years ago
Impossible to tell from this video.
Offside is judged at the moment the ball is kicked by the attacking team. This video only shows the positions of the players later, as they chase down the ball. The attacker could have been ahead when it mattered.
The Asst Referee appears to be well-positioned to see if this was offside.
As for comments that the AR should have waited - no. There was only one offside-positioned player and he was challenging a defender for the ball.
Probably a good call.
wreave 2 years ago 5
make the call as the ref... easy... offside and idfk to red (in the middle) and a "thank you X in the headset"
neenaw999 2 years ago
you can't see anything from this video. offside is judged by the attacker's position when the ball is last played by a teammate and it is impossible to see this here.
1p2arty 3 years ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
your a faggot 1p2arty you can obviously see that the defender is ahead of the attacker, apparently you just suck asshole too much.
SoccerGangsta4 3 years ago
i agree with u, rickhwt, that the linesman's flag does seem to go up a bit early. i, personally, try to wait a bit, especially when there are two players in the area(in this case, the second one was not offside, so he'd have been fine).
i'm glad you are satisfied with the buzz this has cause, and i'm glad you posted it. the best way to get the greatest perspective is to ask many referees, because each has his or her own views.
footboller18 3 years ago
I just wanted to comment, 2 1/2 yrs after posting, and closer to 5 yrs gone since that day. - I am pleased it has generated this discussion.
again... I fully acknowledge the bad camera angle for when the pass was made.. and so it cannot truly be judged -- but I do think I am nearly in line (perpendicular) with the linesman. and I do think he should have waited for participation. and I do believe to this day that he abused his "home field advantage" and made several questionable calls.
rickhwt 3 years ago
i agree with jroy375. i also want to point out that even if the attacking player appeared 'even' with the defender, his upper body appears to be further forward then the defender, which means he could be at least a half step offside. but, the assistant was in a great position, so offside.
footboller18 3 years ago
jroy375 and
jdnebus, you are exactly right.
The ref may or may not been right, but he had the best angle so that is what we have to trust.
buccos2324 3 years ago
From a ref:
Camera
1. is at wrong angle to make the call.
2. does not show offside player's position when ball is kicked.
Therefore, it's impossible to pass judgement on this one.
However, the assistant referee appears to be in the right area to make the call, so I would have faith in his call.
jroy375 3 years ago
Amen itsanna73...not to mention that determining offside happens at the moment the ball is touched by the passing player, which is nearly impossible to determine from the video. You see the linesman with the flag already raised by the time the camera pans to the action, so I assume the determination was made correctly...at the time the ball was passed. Then again, how can anyone tell from such a video?
jdnebus 3 years ago
After 900 matches as referee let me tell you that if you are not exactly square to the field and perfectly in line with the second to last defender then you have no idea whatever about the accuracy of this decision. This video is perfectly useless if the idea is to establish that the referee is incorrect. Parents and coaches think they can make this judgement from their seat; they are dead wrong. The ref is in position; the parent is not. His decision stands.
itsanna73 3 years ago
1. Don't have an angle
2. If the defesive player sped up after the kick and/or the offensive player slowed down, that would change postions - wait for it - when the ball is played for forward.
Badgerjohn27 3 years ago
It all depends on who the referee is.
14peyton 3 years ago
I am a referee too and it looked like it WAS offsides.
14peyton 3 years ago
To me it looked like he was offsides before the pass.
14peyton 3 years ago
Ok, I wish you could have had a better angle, showing where the player was at the time the ball was passed up field. But from the slow (although blury) image, it looks like the player (RED) is onside when the ball is kicked, which is all that matters.
(Also note that it is called an "Offside" rule. NOT an "Offsides" rule. Don't ask me why, its part of the european influence.
USSF Referee,
Rock Buckingham
ShootMeImIrish 4 years ago
you can't see it due to the angle. Also, we don't know where he was at the time of the pass.
sccrdd483 4 years ago
but the linesman did call it too soon. He wasn't involved in the play yet.
sccrdd483 4 years ago
Not true, if in the opinion of the referee, he was the only attacker with a chance to get the ball, the referee is instructed to call it right away. From that video he seems to be the only one in the area. The only question is was he offside when the ball was passed to him.
intechpc 4 years ago
right
sccrdd483 4 years ago
Sure looks offside to me, but that may have been too early for the linesman to raise the flag. There is no involvement yet. Simply being in an offside position does not mean you are involved.
richdop 4 years ago
thats inconclusive, you cant c the forward at the time of the pass... rickhwt's comment that he would have had to move at an unreasonable speed is not true... i was reffing rec soccer yesterday, and there were plenty of situations that looked like that in the end, but the forward was not offside, but there were also ones that made it look like he was clearly offside, and he wasn't, so u never know
swordplay227 4 years ago
The viewing angle is so tight- there's no way I can possibly judge the call.
hassenmorad 5 years ago
Offsides happens at the kick. That means that at the time player A passes the ball forward, your forward can't be in an offside position. But after player A kicks the ball, then your forward has all the right to run faster than the defender to get to the ball first.
so it's hard to say if it was offsides or not because we can't see your forward's position at the time of the kick.
Hope this helps! :)
kleinheero 5 years ago 2
I actually thought it was quite clear. granted you cannot see either the kicker or the position of the forward at the time of the kick. it just seems from the forward and the defender positions and their speed relative to each other. unless one of them moved in an unrealistic speed, judging from the pace of the action.
rickhwt 5 years ago
Yeah but you can't say who started running first. This looks like a goal kick and perhaps the red player is offside when it's kicked, the white player starts running first and then the red player with more speed begins to run. That'd be offside. One can only speculate with this video as you really can't see what you need to be able to see.
intechpc 4 years ago
The call was made; the referee was correct; you can't change it, you can only control what happens next.
In England, a team is called a "side". When you are cherry picking and not playing with your team, you are considered to be "off" your "side". Because you can only play on one team (side) you can not be offsides, as this would indicate you are on more than one team. When I hear the term "offsides" I instantly question that individuals grasp of the law (11).
refross 4 years ago
wow, that's cool to know...are you a ref too?
kleinheero 4 years ago
The short answer is yes, I am a referee. But I prefer to coach, and believe that you can't play a game; soccer, chess, duck/duck/goose, without knowing the rules. Best way to learn the rules is to officiate. I have my players referee also. It improves their reaction to game.
refross 4 years ago
i am also a ref and that play was close but defintely not offsides. When u see the ball coming he is lined with the player then moves forward. he is NOT offsides. thank you.
abington10 4 years ago
"the call was made, and you can't change it" I agree with -- the statement that the ref was correct is arrogant. refs (and I am one also) make mistakes all the time -- just as easily as a pro player can miss a PK.
I believe this ref made a bad call, and it was not the only one that day. I agree this video does not show everything needed for making a call, but I was there.
and richdop's comment regarding participation is surely to be considered before judgment is made.
cheers.
rickhwt 4 years ago